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Or maybe buy the actual WRX instead, and get the tried-and-true 3-pedal 5-speed (which is its only transmission choice this year)? :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's pretty disappointing. I wonder if it was just an abused press car. Then again, it's an auto so you'd think the TCU would prevent that.
Hmm, they were gonna offer it on the Outlander but postponed it - teething issues?
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Or maybe buy the actual WRX instead, and get the tried-and-true 3-pedal 5-speed (which is its only transmission choice this year)?
So a real EVO and a Real WRX are simply imitation WRC cars? Then shouldn't a real EVO come with a real Paddle shifter? If we are getting "real". :P
Many moons ago I thought I wanted to be a motorcycle racer. I got a Kawasaki 750 Tripple, added rear sets and clip-ons and got a dust bin faring. Managed to get a sportsman racing ticket and thought I might want to move up. I asked a bike mechanic what it would take to turn my bike into a real racer, he said to take off the mirror and roll a race bike under it. Met Kenny Roberts at the old Ontario track and watched his practice for the pro races that weekend. It was my last day on a real track with what I thought was a real bike.
It is always with interest that when in these debates we refer to testing done by R&T or C&D as they "race" the cars against each other. But when you mention how Paddle shifters have all but replaced all third pedals in the top racing cars we fall back on the practicality of a true manual. Seems there is a lot of wishful thinking here. And just after you complained about the new Yota 5 door Yaris and Toyota's choice of transmission.
And boaz, I didn't call the Evo "real" because it has a stick, I called it real because it has the full power and proper handling characteristics, whereas the Ralliart looks the part but is down more than 10% on power, and apparently down about 80% on handling if that article is to be believed.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Largest by any metric: weight, cargo-volume, passenger-volume, passenger-count ...
Also, same question but also including SUVs/trucks. ?
let's say 2008 or 2009 model year, anything likely/possible to be on dealers lots now?
Just a thought experiment here, nobody's actually *buying* new vehicles now but it's fun to talk about.
How big is a BMW 5 series now? May not even be as big as an Accord, although it is probably heavier.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Problem is, the highway is somewhat erratic as to movement, especially in the PM. The morning isn't too bad, just about 55-60 minutes regularly (as long as I leave home by 6:15). There are a couple of spots that still clog up, so I spend part of that time stop/go or creeping.
PM is a crapshoot. I have made it in an hour, but more normal recently is 1:20 - 1:40. That is a lot of stop/go involved, broken up by short bursts of actual movement.
The record so far is 2.5 hours to make the 44 mile return trip. Basically 35 miles in the middle of solid brake lights. That day my left leg/hip was a bit tired!
But overall, the stick isn't really an issue on the normal days. It helps that the Accord has a nice light clutch so you hardly notice it. And in some ways, it is easier to deal with the traffic since you don't have to worry about the AT crawl.
I am looking though at a different car, but at this pint largely because I want a wagon (just got a big dog that doesn't fit well in the back seat!), and am looking for an AT this time. Partly for the commute (at least you can shift position and keep from getting as stiff), partly so the rest of the family can also drive it (wife rusty, son never learned), but largely because everything I like only comes that way!
but anyway, IMO the gotta have a AN for the commute is probably a myth for the majority of people.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Assuming that you aren't talking about SUVs and crossovers, then the BMW 5-Series Wagon (i.e. the 535xi Sport Wagon with a 6-Speed manual transmission) is probably the car that best answers your question.
Best regards,
Shipo
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But the question is why did Toyota release it as a Automatic? If commuting hasn't contributed to Toyota's marketing of automatics in commuter cars what has? It should be easy to see the consumer is voting with their wallet and Toyota wants to get as much of that vote as they can. If Manuals were better for commuting for the average person then by logic more commuters would drive manuals. But they don't and Toyota must have figured that out.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Oh - the largest vehilcle with a manual transmission other than the big GMC and Ford commercial trucks (GMC 4500 for instance) are the larger cargo vans(van conversion, of course... heh). Second are the larger full size pickups. A few are still available with manuals.
For cars, though, You're stuck with essentially Volvos, Saabs, the Cadillac CTS, and a few specific BMWs and Mercedes (note the European theme?)
My point is still, if manuals were easier to drive or better, as some contend, then why have more than 90 percent of American Consumers decided to pay extra for an commuter car with an Automatic? You can't on one hand say the manual is easier to drive and on the other accuse the consumers of being lazy. There is some logic missing here.
Something has made the manual fall from grace as the "standard" transmission over the years. From all reports Asians are moving in the same direction we are with CVTs and other automatic transmissions even in their small cars. we constantly hear in these forums that manuals are better, easier, more efficient and yet they have been rejected by the majority of American consumers.
Europe's automotive preferences have had far less impact on the US than has Asia's That tread isn't likely to change nor is the availability of manuals. Some have suggested that sports cars will be the last bastion of the manual and that could well be. But to the American consumer new and improved means easier to use.
The question stands, why if there is a clear advantage to manuals in commuter traffic would consumers reject them and pay more for an automatic at the rate of 9 to 1?
Probably because the "clear advantage" is not so clear.
Is driving a manual easier? Well, no, not if you measure relative activity - no left foot clutch action, no right hand gear changing, no listening for where the engine is revving to, no looking at the tach for any real info. All that extra "work!"
The advantage of possibly better economy is not readily apparent. For most people this is something that they heard once, but unless they drive the same route with two cars identical except for transmission, it's an academic issue.
I drive a stick, love driving it, and don't plan doing anything else, however, I will tell you that my car's design kinda makes it that coffee bought on the road gets consumed AT the rest stop (you try using the cupholder in an E39 BMW, you'll understand), but then, I'm not a huge car/food person, anyway.
For so many driving is a chore, and a car is an appliance - at best, driving is like really, really fast walking - it gets them from here to there, but if you were to suggest doing it if they did not have to, they'd look at you like you had two heads. So yes, for many (most?) easier, or non-involved is definitely a better idea... these are the same folk that love that there is a Lexus that can park for you, and secretly wish for the autopilot (Look Marge, I just get in, select a destination, and go to sleep... it beeps the horn when I get there! What will they think of next?!)
I still believe that the fringe will continue to be there. And I plan being one of them.
OTOH, just leave it in drive or shift the A/T manually for the same effect and it is much easier in stop/go situations.
If you consider sheer ease of operation, the A/T wins.
If you prefer more control and more work, shift yourself and the M/T wins. However, I submit you have just as much control manually shifting a good A/T as the M/T provides in traffic.
Regards,
OW
1. Better: Pretty subjective. Depends on what you are looking for. Obviously there are plenty of folks who feel an automatic is "better". I disagree, of course.
2. Easier: Some have said they are easier to drive in traffic jams. However, if one doesn't know how to use a manual, they certainly wouldn't be easier. I am also well aware that there are many who feel an automatic is easier in traffic. I accept that I am in a minority.
3. More efficient: I know that some argue this as automatics get better but I still feel that manuals are more efficient in the mpg dept.
Personally, I don't think it matters why automatics are more popular. I'm very aware that they are. I also know that they will always be that way now simply because more young drivers will never learn how to drive a stick. Mom and dad have an automatic and that's all they learn how to drive. My kids are an exception.
That's what I was talking about... I disagree. I find the manual easier in traffic. Again, I'm very aware that many disagree.
My mom has bad knees (arthritis) so we had to get her an auto. It's much easier for her. No contest, to be honest.
Is it leteral, mile after mile, stop/go? And up hill? Or is it generally moving at various speeds, with an occasional brief stop dead? And then some creeping?
Mine is usually moving with sluggish pockets, some creeping, and a little bit of true stop/go.
as noted, knowing how to drive a stick matters. No keeping the clutch held in. Either in gear or in neutral. saves wear on the left leg, and the clutch!
Theoretically a manumatic can do the same thing, but I like the manual because you can keep it in a lower gear for cut/thrust driving. Plus, on the flats, you can rest both feet. The big problem with an AT is the damn creep. If you don't keep enough pressure on the brake, you bump into the guy in front of you. At least with a stick, it only moves when I tell it too!
Even more than on the highway, I really prefer the stick for city driving. No getting caught in the wrong gear when ou have to punch it to get into a hole in traffic.
So, IMO, the AT is simpler, but the stick gives you more control.
and the E39 cupholders are a joke. That alone might be enough to get me to pass on one!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I have the opposite of what you would expect - my city commuter is a manual (93 Miata) and my weekend/trip family car is an auto (07 Sienna), mostly because that's the only way they come.
Early Caravans came with manuals, though I'm sure they were rare. You can still get a Mazda5 with a manual, if that counts.
LOL!
I submit that LA may be the car capital city in the world or at least the US. No scientific proof of that but by numbers of cars and registered drivers, any many unregistered, it seems like it. Commuting is exactly stop and go. During the heavy rush hours it is nothing but stop and go. You can't let the clutch out and let it move along at whatever speed you can idle because 40 feet ahead they come to a complete stop and they stay that was for two to three minutes. Then they might move for 100 yards only to come to a complete stop again. If you happen to be unlucky enough to take the 405 north out of LA you have a very long uphill grade to add to your driving pleasure plus the stop and go.
But the one comment I do agree with is that more and more kids are not being taught to drive a manual so the demand will decrease as they get into the market. If 90+ percent of the mom and dads drive automatics now why would we expect more manuals in the future? So if you are a mega car company like Toyota why wouldn't you offer a Yaris 5 door hatch as a commuter with an automatic standard? If you are a bean counter the question answers itself. And in this economy who else will people listen to?
And, as someone brought up, I don't have to ride the brake during traffic like with an automatic. Most brake pedals are also far stiffer and tiring to press than your typical clutch.
With such a description of the advantages of a manual in heavy traffic you have to wonder why 9 out of 10 of the people driving next to you decided to spend the extra money on an Automatic? I have been on the 91 when it took more than an hour to gt from the 710 to the 605 I know traffic was at a stop more than every mile or so. But then I have never had a power brake unit that was harder to depress than a clutch. At least not one than had to move as far.
The consumers seem to know what they want and if it were an election it would be a landslide. Do you ever wonder why manuals are in the minority? And lazy doesn't cut it because you don't get any exercise driving a car.
Regards,
OW
Well. . .I'm not so sure. The Toyoda system says that there's no point in doing anything that the customer doesn't notice or care about. Many corporations put stuff in their products because they think it's best, without regard to whether the ultimate user notices or gives a rip, often at considerable expense.
Elsewhere it's called the least (or lowest) common denominator.
Join the masses!
Or not.
In Europe, it's about technological advancement and improvement. Witness Volkswagen/Audi's ingenious DSG which features twin clutch packs; one for odd numbered gears, and one for even gears.
I believe that most automobiles in the U.S. are equipped with automatic transmissions because are Americans are too lazy to be bothered with the art of shifting themselves or are just unable to.
The vast majority of the U.S. is not composed of dense urban areas.
An exceptional number of automobiles in Europe are equipped with manual transmissions. has anyone noticed that European automakers outsource their automatic transmissions in several instances (BMW using a GM-built 5-speed HydraMatic in some models) while American automakers generally outsource their manuals due to lower popularity of this transmission type (the Chevrolet Cobalt features a Getrag manual for instance).
And, some brands most certainly wouldn't feature manual transmissions if the principal clientele choose automatics instead. Frankly, I'm shocked that Toyota continues to offer a manual in the Camry while Dodge and Chevrolet have none at all in their midsizers. A Honda or Volkswagen with a manual seems quite natural due to the driver oriented natures of the cars versus a squishy commuter.
That is one of the things that REALLY annoys me about automatics.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
also i don't believe the dude that says he prefers a manual transmission in 'traffic', if the dude is meaning a traffic jam... like for the entire length of the NJ turnpike.
I bet anyone who says they prefer manual trans in a traffic jam hasn't driven in a real traffic jam with a real manual transmission!
I've owned manual transmissioned vehicles all of my driving life, and during those years, I've lived in San Diego, Los Angeles, Cupertino, Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit, New York, and Boston, and I've driven through literally thousands of traffic jams. Believe it or not, I've never once wished I had an automatic transmission in whatever car I was driving. In fact, the only two times in my driving life that I was forced by circumstances (once economic and once due to a badly broken leg) to drive a car with an automatic transmission, I found myself counting the days until I could get back into a car with a stick.
Best regards,
Shipo
The vast majority of the U.S. is not composed of dense urban areas."
Do you think that generalization is true? Could the reverse be true if we said Europeans were too cheap to buy automatics? I think it is simply personal preference. Americans see vehicles as they are, tools, nothing more. Much like using a browser to surf the web we don't type in addresses we click with the mouse. Shoot I don't know many people who know what Hyper text transfer protocall is yet they see it every time the get on the web.
It seems to me that generally Americans are looking for ease of use in a tool. We can buy hand tools with laser levelers and line projectors even from Sears. Somehow it is viewed as an improvement over drawing a line and following it with a groove in front of the blade of a circular saw.
It seems as if there is a minority of us, American consumers, that are willing to ascribe some form of anthropomorphic qualities to Cars, motorcycles, boats and sometimes planes. To those few enthusiasts ease of use is far less important than tradition. I often hear words like, feeling at one with the vehicle or road when in truth that isn't possible because one is a machine and the other is an inanimate object. It all breaks down into simple preferences. Once that is realized the reasons for a manufacturer offering any option becomes purely business. If 91 percent of your customers are buying one option you should put 91 percent of your effort into supporting their ability to get that option. You don't need to pay much attention to the 8 or 9 percent that prefer the old technology because their loyalty will keep them and if you lose them they will simply buy the option that you are placing most of your effort.
It has never been a debate on what we like better personally. It is on the future of manuals verses whatever other challenge it faces. It is a little like animal management. Once an animals population falls below a set point we move to declare it an endangered species. Sometimes that effort can save the animal and sometimes it can't. Right now with the direction the US is going the manual driver is an endangered species. That to me is the future of the manual in the US.
I've noticed that the newer autos have *much* less creep built-in, probably to save gas, I imagine.
In some cases, going uphill, you let off the brake and an automatic will actually roll backwards a little. My Sienna does that.
It will only creep forward a tiny bit, if it's flat or down hill.
Let's remember than a manual trans will basically roll with any hills, too. Only BMW, Mini, and Subaru offer hill holder features to prevent roll back.
Yup, my latest was an '07 Mustang I drove just a few weeks ago while my car was in the body shop. Terrible automatic in every aspect of its operation, including VERY healthy creep in traffic.
Let's remember than a manual trans will basically roll with any hills, too. Only BMW, Mini, and Subaru offer hill holder features to prevent roll back.
Sure, and every single other model sold with a manual offers the use of a hand brake, which with a little judicious use of the right hand will accomplish exactly the same thing. Of course, your Sienna with its automatic and foot-operated parking brake does not offer you as much in the way of options.
Oh, and elias would lose his bet with me too. Many modern econoboxes, mine included, have very light clutches, and the extra control of the third pedal is especially appreciated in stop and go traffic.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I've driven automatics most of my life. My 06 330i, that I leased for three years, had a steptronic transmission which was, at the time, one of the best steps (performance oriented semi-manual/auto transmission) in the world! It was loads of fun and convenient. I found my self however in automatic mode 95% of the times, and down shifting/stepping manually during spirited occations when I wanted a burst of accelleration. I thought things couldn't get better.
Now, I have an 08 335i with 6spd manual transmission. During the first 2 weeks, shifting was frustrating..especially 1st and 2nd. Nearly all manual BMW's these days have a wierd rattle when going from 1st to 2nd while the clutch is disengaged (pressed down). It turns out, this only happens when you shift, I would call it, impropperly, but others might say sub optimally. Anyhow, let me tell you guys.. if your goal is to enjoy the essence of driving..whether it be casual, spirited, or hard core racing... If the goal is to appreciate the drive, and to have the most fun!...
Get the manual transmission! Hands down.
If however, your goal is to efficiently drive around while maximizing convienence. Or in other words, to get from point A to B, very swiftly if you wish, yet with minimum fuss. If 90% results with 10% effort matters to you. If you don't relish in optimizing engine torque and controlling precisely what kind of rev you want. If you don't want to 100% control throttle response during a tight yet spirited bend. Another words, if you just wanna drive well, very well, and aren't very interested in participating more intimitely, which affords you the opportunity in improving slightly the drive's performance, in the process. If FUN is important to you, but within moderation. If it isn't really important to you that you get the ultimate funness out of your drive..
Well, then.. you'd do better to get an automatic.
I hope that explains it to you guys who are wondering..and I know there's alot of you out there.
By the way, I'd say that manuals are probably not for everyone,..but Are for most people..and the real problem is,.. many of those people just don't know it. I believe that presents a large prospective market for the auto industry to capitalize on. The fact that many Americans would probably be happier with a manual, in my opinion I should say, is a real marketing opportunity I believe. Question is, how can auto-makers make money outta selling a cheaper sprocket (manuals are simplier than auto-matics usually)?
Manuals are funner, they work very well, are realiable, cheaper, and present less load to the engine.
Manuals WORK and are more FUN! If they ain't broke, we shouldn't be tryin so hard to Fix'em??? That last statement is in regards to all the development for sophisticated sports orientated semi-manual-auto transmissions (SMG, DSG, ..). There's still a need for automatics.. for those whom are incapable or really don't value fun anymore, or for those who live near exceededly congested traffic jams.
Joseph
San Diego
As someone posted earlier driving for most people is a necessary chore. Driving a manual is more interesting but it is also something that requires dedication and attention. Cell phones, computers, Ipods remote control is what people see as advancement. We are getting to the point where our equipment is better at its assigned task than we as humans. Take jet aircraft, without fly by wire we humans couldn't fly one in combat without getting shot down. Take F-1 racing, WRC, Alms cars, without paddle shifters the best human driver simply can't win a race.
Manuals fall some place in between pure technology and tradition. People had to learn to drive and learn how to drive a manual. Our society is looking for a simpler and easier way. The purpose of a car is to move us more efficiently from one place to another. A minority of drivers enjoy the process most take it for granted. We aren't going to change we are always going to look for the easier way of doing things. Give a man a better tool that is easier to use and sooner or later the old tool falls out of favor and only the very dedicated will buy the old tool.
It seems as if we are going to have dedicated manual drivers with us for quite some time but their numbers are slowly dwindling as we change our automotive preferences. The Automatic drivers will simply have more choices and the manual drivers will have to settle for whatever the manufacturers will give them.
when people first started buying Mini vans you could get one with a manual. As they became more popular fewer and fewer people bought them. Then one day just about every manufacturer stopped making them for the American market. Didn't mean you couldn't buy a manual just that you couldn't get one in a Mini Van of your choice. Some thing happened with SUVs. For those who loved the Nissan Maxima and were loyal to it what choice do they now have? They can't get a Murano or Rouge either. It is not the manufacturers fault it is the consumer and what they are willing to spend their money on. If you want a Hybrid what choice do you have? Manuals have simply become an after thought in the automotive marketing world in the US.
Oh, and elias would lose his bet with me too. Many modern econoboxes, mine included, have very light clutches, and the extra control of the third pedal is especially appreciated in stop and go traffic.
IIRC, a few cars now have electro-mechanical clutch pedals. No actual hydraulics.(it trips a solenoid instead) So if you want a super light clutch, all you have to do is adjust the spring.
Neither surges forward, though. That would bother me, too.
Question - do any manuals have floor-mounted parking brakes? That would be odd. For my Miata, I use the hand brake to exit my parking garage at work, which is fairly steep.
On that ramp my Sienna will drift back a bit, but the Forester (auto) doesn't.
That's actually not entirely true ...
I prefer a manual in just about any circumstance because it gives me more control with the car - that said, "more control" is a question of what you're used to.
I learnt to drive in a manual, and I drive almost entirely with the clutch - I basically step on the break only in emergencies, I regulate the transmission to the wheels with the clutch (someone experienced can easily make a car stand still with just the gas pedal and the clutch).
I feel I have a lot less control with an automatic, e.g. with parking, in a real traffic jam, i.e. in any situation where I need to carefully regulate the speed.
(To the extent that I'm always afraid to hit something - I still don't understand how not to make the car jerk around without a clutch ... in a manual I just gradually release the throttle, I can move the car half an inch forward smoothly ... in an automatic, I'm either pressing the break or the gas - the stupid thing creeps, and I keep stop-and-go jerking around when parking.)
It's second nature, I'm used to it.
However - I know people who are used to automatics, and they have similar control problems on manuals ...
I don't actually think either of them is "better" - it's just a matter of driving style.
I have a steep ramp exiting my garage at work, and I'd say our 09 Forester auto handles it best, maintaining its position. The Sienna slides back a little. My manual Miata slides back a lot - so I use the hand brake trick. You kinda have to.