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My understanding is that the serious rock-climber 4X4s are almost alll A/Ts because the slip provided by the torque converter comes in very handy when crawling over uneven terrain at weird angles.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Depends if we are talking serious or pro. If you are doing a lot of rock crawling and are using a second gear reduction system often a manual will work quite well. If you look at some of the pictures on my Carspace site you will see several rock buggies that have manuals. The goal is to be able to crawl by just using the brake and gas pedal and not touch the clutch. Most rock crawlers can run at a walking pace in the first two gears. Many serious rock crawlers like to be able to make repairs on the road and so they opt for a manual. But Pumpers have their place as well and rock crawlers are more interested in getting up the trail than what transmission you did it with. A great place to learn about rock crawling is Pirate4X4 message board. But be warned they are not the easiest people on newbes.
I did run across an article this weekend, though, that mentioned that manuals were showing a rise since they do get better economy(and I'll add are a lot less to initially buy and eventually replace) and people are moving to smaller cars.
But I am not going to hold my breath for a large resurgence of manuals even in small cars. People simply can't drive them so they don't test them, in my area, and they aren't stocked. Even Isellhondas mentioned that fact. I told a story about going to a car wash early this year before I sold the PT and Focus. At the end of the line a young girl jumps into my PT and after about two minutes jumps out and goes running for an older hispanic guy who walks over and moves it to the drying area. Of all the people working at the car wash only two could drive a stick. To add insult to injury we spent the weekend at a big historic hotel in Riverside. When we went to check out we had to wait for the one valet who could drive a stick. But to be fair between the SUVs, BMWs, and Chrysler 300s they didn't have to drive too many manuals while we were standing there.
After driving every economical car I could think of, I'd pretty much settled on a new Rabbit 5-Speed, unfortunately MK5 Rabbits have been phased out of production and the MK6 models won't start hitting our shores until next summer or fall, and that means buying from what dealers have in stock. So? Well, after weeks and weeks of patiently waiting for my local dealers to find a 5-Speed model and saying "No thanks" every time I was asked, "Are you sure we cannot interest you in a car with an automatic", I switched to "Plan-B".
Last Monday I traded the trusty old Caravan in on a new 2009 Mazda3 i Touring 5-Speed, and geez is it good to be able to stir my own gears again. :shades:
This new car is double good news as both of my kids will be getting their driving licenses in the next couple of years, and they're both itching to learn how to drive a stick. :shades: :shades: :shades:
Best regards,
Shipo
Regards,
Jose
I almost almost bought a 3s 5-door when I got the Matrix, but the better fuel economy and larger back seat of the Matrix swayed me. The Mazda3 was the better drive between the two though.
I'm just glad both are still offered with the stick, as will the updated 2010 Mazda3. :-)
That was a hell of a concession you made when you started your business.....don't know if I could have done the same.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As for the new business, the goal was:
BMW 530i, PP, SP, 5-Speed ==> 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan 3.8 (for no more than one year) ==> BMW M5 (and/or a nice 911).
The reality turned out to be:
BMW 530i, PP, SP, 5-Speed ==> 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan 3.8 (for three and a half years and some 90,000 miles) ==> 2009 Mazda3 i Touring Value Edition (for the foreseeable future).
Oh well, you pays your money, you takes your chance. :P
Best regards,
Shipo
The Honda dealer has a 5 speed Fit in stock and they let me take it home overnight. It's fun having the stick around.
I did stall it out a mile from home trying to start out in 3rd from a stop sign.
Congratulations! Enjoy (as if. . .).
Sorry to hear of your business reversals, but I certainly envy your opportunity to enjoy your new ride on the backroads of New England, schedule permitting.
Did you ever try a TSX 6-speed? I'd appreciate your opinion of its manual relative to the the you've got. I enjoy it; it's by far the slickest FWD manual I've ever driven, but I haven't driven a Mazda3.
Best regards,
Shipo
Given the model change-over that the Golf/Rabbit/GTI is currently in the midst of, I'm not sure that my failure to find a 5-Speed Rabbit is an indicator of anything other than the fact that the remaining manny-tranny versions have been snapped up first.
Regarding the Rabbit vs. the Mazda3 comparison, believe it or not, the Rabbit easily trumps the Mazda3 in driving dynamics, however, the Mazda has much nicer creature comforts and better fuel economy to boot; so the two were pretty much a draw with the VW ever so slightly edging out the Mazda to make it to the top of my short list. Apparently my rankings aren't unique as there are at least two recent economy car comparisons that I've come across that ranked the Rabbit #1 and the Mazda3 a very close second.
As for liking the M3 better, over time, I rather doubt that, however, since the Rabbit didn't find its way into my garage, I guess I'll never know. ;-)
Best regards,
Shipo
Thanks, I'm a tad over 35 miles from my new office and there are some nice twisty roads between here and there. :shades:
Did you ever try a TSX 6-speed? I'd appreciate your opinion of its manual relative to the the you've got. I enjoy it; it's by far the slickest FWD manual I've ever driven, but I haven't driven a Mazda3.
No, didn't drive the TSX, however, as I understand it, the gearbox in the Civic Si is very similar if not identical to the one in the TSX, and I really enjoyed flogging an Si around the back roads of Bow, NH. As for comparisons between the gearboxes of the Mazda3 and the Si, the clutches feel about the same, however, the shifter in the Mazda snicks into gear just a tad smoother than the Honda unit. Please understand, that's not to say that then Si tranny is anything less than excellent.
Best regards,
Shipo
Gritzinger from Autoweek: I really love the precision of a Porsche manual shifter and the smooth clutch action, so it's hard to embrace the PDK as long as I still have a leg to push a clutch pedal. Yes, it's quick and likely smoother than I could ever hope to shift, and I'd vote it the best of this new generation of transmissions so far. But, as with any of these gearboxes, the missing element is knowing the exact point of engagement. I still would prefer to handle that myself, so I know exactly when the engine will brake or when to pour more power.
To which Hart adds: This was my first chance to operate the Doppelkupplung transmission, and I have mixed feelings about it. In automatic mode it's fine, but it's not spectacular.....I'm not sure the tranny is worth $4000, especially because I think the steering-wheel interface could be much better.
$4000 EXTRA to take half the fun out of the thing? What are people thinking??? And hey, it's just one opinion but mine is that steering wheels should be for STEERING and GEARSHIFTS are for controlling the gears....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You are a devoted man I must admit. I took a class on mechanical drafting in the 70s and I can remember how many of my class mates had designs of cars with single sticks, much like a fighter plane, for controlling a car. Some went on to design some for car shows. Many years later when I went into logistics and transportation I started buying equipment and I noticed that over the years the controls on "working equipment got more automated and simple as the years went on. Twin sticks gave way to electric and hydrolic buttons on heavy duty trucks. But my first view into how much my old class mates had predicted the future came a few year ago when I bought our first forklift with a joy stick. Way before toyota had regenerative braking in a car Yale, Clark, Nissan and the others had it on their forklifts. But the joy stick was a surprise to me. I then discovered that they have joy sticks to help some people with handicaps drive vehicles. So wheels don't need to be for stearing and sticks don't need to be for shifting. The human mind can invent a machine that can do that for us and that is what inventors do. Without them you would still find joy in riding a horse or steering as was intended with the first cars, using a tiller. Once we see more EVs and alternative vehicles who knows how we will shift or steer?
I have a manual truck I drive to work during the week, but frankly I would rather have an automatic. With the ever increasing number of 4-way stop signs, and red lights in this town, the constant shifting becomes a real pain. I take the car to work now and then, just so I can relax, and drink my coffee on the way to work. Sure, a manual can be fun, on those rare occasions when there is an open twisty road, and a little spirited driving is possible. But I think 95% of the driving public gets very few chances like that. Used to be, manuals were much cheaper. Not so much anymore. Used to be, manuals were much cheaper to repair. Not so much anymore, unless you can do it yourself, and avoid the high labor rate at repair shops. Used to be, a manual was more economical mpg wise. Not anymore. Many automatics get better mileage than their manual counterparts. Used to be, a manual had the performance edge. Not so much anymore. Used to be, a manual was more reliable. Not so much, with syncro problems, clutch problems, etc. they can be just as problematic. I see just as many complaints about manuals popping out of gear, or refusing to go in gear, as I do about automatic problems. IMO, manuals have lost their advantages, so I just don't feel the need to exercise my left foot, and right arm all day. I can easily affect the shifts on my automatic, by manipulating the accelerator pedal, and if I really want to choose a certain gear, I can do that with the automatic shifter, so what's the point?
OK guys, I know the manual purists are itching to launch a counter attack, so fire away.
As for Used to be, manuals were much cheaper. Not so much anymore
I disagree. The premium for an automatic is larger than ever, up to $1500 in some cases for a regular ol' crapbox TC automatic, and $4000 or more for some of the latest wonder trannies, AKA dual clutch autos.
Used to be, manuals were much cheaper to repair. Not so much anymore, unless you can do it yourself, and avoid the high labor rate at repair shops
Have you priced it lately? It's still hard to get a manual repair over $1500, many are under $1000. Try to get an automatic rebuilt for under $2500 - go ahead. ;-)
Used to be, a manual was more economical mpg wise. Not anymore
By coincidence I have owned both manual and automatic versions of my current 1.8L Matrix, and the same car with the same driver and the same driving patterns gets 15% better fuel economy with the stick than it does with the auto. For me that's several hundred dollars a year saved.
Used to be, a manual was more reliable. Not so much, with syncro problems, clutch problems, etc. they can be just as problematic.
Now I know you are just joshing. :-)
OTOH, it is all too true that the large Hondas are becoming harder and harder to find on dealer lots with a manual - Accords, Elements, and of course CRV is going on its second year with no manual option. :sick:
But manual Fits and Civics? Dealer lots are teeming with those! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Sure, a manual can be fun, on those rare occasions when there is an open twisty road
Some of us have fun with manuals even in traffic. If you don't, so be it. I don't find "constant shifting" to be a pain at all.
Used to be, manuals were much cheaper.
Nippon addressed this, but in our Accords, the manual is still cheaper.
Used to be, manuals were much cheaper to repair.
Still true, manuals ARE cheaper to repair. And besides, they last longer than automatics.
Used to be, a manual was more economical mpg wise.
Since you monitor the Real World Accord Mileage forum here, you know that, in general, the manuals get better overall mileage. Because of the taller gearing, the automatics will sometimes get better highway mileage, but even that is rare.
Used to be, a manual had the performance edge.
I test drove an automatic and manual Accord when I bought my 06. There was no comparison. The auto was gutless compared to the stick.
Used to be, a manual was more reliable.
With my 95 Accord at almost 230k, you'll have a tough time making this argument with me. Everyone I talk to says the same thing. The manuals last forever.
It's great that you prefer an automatic and there are some advantages for people who need/desire them but I disagree with what you've said here. :shades:
An entire new transmission for my truck is $1100. Not rebuilt, but have-to-break-it-in new and shiny. A clutch kit? Seriously? $150-$200, tops. A mechanic can yank a trans, put in the new one and a clutch in an hour or two. Labor to replace a clutch or transmission on a RWD manual is a fraction as much as a FWD automatic.
I got mine replaced and put together for $500 labor plus parts, which were another $600 in gears and so on(after 320K miles!).
Also, if the thing starts to die again, you can baby it and coax it along for a year or more. An automatic just dies and sits like a rock. The last two that I had go bad on me(80-100K is common life now for a torque converter) died with 2-3 blocks warning. Working, working, rock that had to be towed out of the middle of the road.
But the real advantage is that my truck gets the same performance out of a 4 as the exact same model does with the V6 and the automatic. Literally.
Nippon addressed this, but in our Accords, the manual is still cheaper.
Accord coupe V6 auto, and Accord V6 6 speed, same price. Look it up.
Used to be, a manual was more economical mpg wise.
Since you monitor the Real World Accord Mileage forum here, you know that, in general, the manuals get better overall mileage. Because of the taller gearing, the automatics will sometimes get better highway mileage, but even that is rare.
I'm not talking about some mileage forum, where people are inclined to stretch the truth (a lot). I'm talking about the official numbers on the window stickers, which I am more inclined to believe.
Used to be, a manual was more reliable.
With my 95 Accord at almost 230k, you'll have a tough time making this argument with me. Everyone I talk to says the same thing. The manuals last forever.
Again, you are basing your conclusions on what other manual Accord drivers say (biased). Look at the Accord forums and you see a lot of posts about their manuals popping out of 3rd gear, and having trouble getting the problem solved. If you happen to be out of warranty, it can cost thousands in labor alone at a stealership. I have never had a problem with either of my automatics.
I just don't see the big advantage of a manual transmission these days. And after all this, when you are ready to sell your manual Accord, you will find much fewer buyers.
People who drive manuals, think they are somehow more skilled drivers than the automatic driver. I drive both, just about every day, and that's just not the case. Just because you change your gears by hand, doesn't make you a better, more skilled driver. An automatic driver can actually keep both hands on the wheel, where they should be.
I will agree manuals can be a little more durable, and in some cases cheaper to buy and operate. The differences are not what they used to be, however.
Same torque and same towing capacity? Funny that isn't the case with full sized trucks what kind of truck do you have?
As far as replacing a transmission all RWD cars are easier to replace than FWD I believe. When I bought my PT one of the things I did that surprised the salesman was look under the car to see if I could get to the bell housing and transmission without having to drop the engine. My Saturn cost over $1000.00 in parts and labor to replace a clutch and pressure plate. My sons Ford Mustang had that ford 4 speed auto and we had it rebuilt for just over $1050 two years before. Yes some manuals are easier and cheeper to fix but not all.
But nippon makes a valid point, manuals are still plentiful if you are willing to change what kind of car you want. It is harder to find a manual V-6 Accord or Camry on the lots, but you could order one I believe. However if you are more interested in the transmission than the car you could drop down to a sub compact Honda or Toyota and find one easier.
But the OP posted a chief concern that many commuters have expressed and that is ease of driving to commute with a Automatic. That may be the number one reason automatics out number manuals more than 9 to 1. Right wrong or disagree it is still the fact listed by consumers for making the switch. It is going to take a real change in our culture to get people back into a stick. And it Hybrids and EVs are in our future even that will not help. Shoot even the Smart car isn't a manual.
Wow... out of all the trimlines Honda offers, you found the only one that is the same: The V6 Coupe. I know you know that all the other manuals (coupes and sedans) are $800 cheaper. $800 is some serious cash in my book.
I'm talking about the official numbers on the window stickers, which I am more inclined to believe.
That's fine. I'm inclined to believe my own numbers and I'm way ahead of the EPA sticker. I was also talking about combined mileage, not just highway. It's closer but manuals still do better, generally.
Again, you are basing your conclusions on what other manual Accord drivers say (biased).
Actually, I was basing my conclusions on personal experience and Honda sales and service dept staff. I also don't remember ever talking to anyone who thought an automatic was as reliable or the same cost to repair as a manual.
And you know that there are always many more problems posted than those who post no problems, automatic or manual.
I don't have a problem with anyone who prefers to drive a manual. I never said manual drivers are more skilled. I do know that whenever I've sold a manual, I've never had any trouble selling and getting top dollar.
Go ahead and tell me you don't want to use your left leg. Tell me that you want both hands on the wheel at all times. Tell me that you don't mind paying more for what you find convenient. Tell me that the differences are narrowing.
Just don't tell me that they are the same.
Same torque and same towing capacity? Funny that isn't the case with full sized trucks what kind of truck do you have?
Not on paper, but in actual use after the torque converter and so on is added to the equation? Absolutely. See, they always measure engine power in a lab with a device attached to the output shaft. Never on an actual dyno with the wheels and transmission attached, because automatics suck enormous power.
Also, to get those 0-60 times, they power shift the automatic after dumping it manually out of neutral at near redline. The Corvette, for instance, is designed to last 200 such full bore launches before the thing breaks. This sort of behavior is unreasonable, hard on the equipment, and completely unrealistic. Yet almost all magazines and manufacturers do it.
Top Gear this last season, in fact, tried to replicate these times. Nothing even came close. 20% slower was the best their testers could manage on a test track. Add in an automatic and normal letting it do what it wanted(just hit the gas) and it was nearly 50% slower in most cases than the claimed specs.
Add in lag for shifting and unlocking the torque converter when trying to make a pass, plus the fact that I can rev the blots off of my little 4 twice as fast and it's really exactly the same.
Oh - the truck? A Toyota 4 Runner. 4000lbs. 4x4 gearing. V6 with 160HP(claimed) gets punked by my little ~120HP 4 for everything other than rock crawling, because there you can actually rev the 6 to 4000rpm and hold it there as you creep over stuff. With a newer vehicle? You can do the same with a 4cyl Tacoma and the V6.
It has been postulated in this discussion many times that one of the main factors contributing to the decline in manual transmission popularity is the fact that so many parents no longer drive them, and as such, they don't teach their kids "the art of the stick." Funny thing though, I had no such tutelage in spite of the fact that while I was growing up I had a mom, a step-mom, a father, and not one but two step fathers. Unfortunately not one of them drove a stick-shift car for the duration of my time at home (I did find out in later years that both my father and my first step-father were well versed in the proper operation of a clutch pedal). So, that said, "Why," I asked myself, "did I even bother teaching myself how to drive a stick when I was 19 (two years after I left home)?"
While I have no concrete answer to the above rhetorical question, I do find it quite interesting that all three of my brothers and my one sister have never once bought a new personal vehicle that had fewer than three pedals under the dash (I qualified it that way as we've all had automatic equipped "family haulers" that weren't offered with manual transmissions, fortunately our spouses drove the automatics for the most part).
So, here we have a group of five kids, raised by a group of five adults. Not one of the five adults drove a manual transmission while we were growing up, and yet, not one of us kids will willingly buy a car with an automatic transmission. Go figure.
Best regards,
Shipo
IMO the manual by its nature is so far superior to the automatic that even after 40 years of advancements in the computer industry (and 100 in the automotive industry) the automakers STILL can't make an automatic that gives you as much control of the engine and the gears as the simple manual shifter does.
Alas, we have less and less people every year, ESPECIALLY in the U.S., that know what they are missing. So despite its superiority the manual is, I believe, doomed in the long run in all but niche cars. I am hoping (and feeling more and more confident all the time) that the wide availability of the manual will outlive my remaining driving years though. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Indeed I have seen dynos (rear wheel hp/torque outpu)t with up to 20% parasitic waste, automatic transmission. Compared to 9-11% parasitic waste 6 speed manual transmission. It is also reflected in lower mph, more weight, slightly less handling and performance.
..."Also, to get those 0-60 times, they power shift the automatic after dumping it manually out of neutral at near redline. The Corvette, for instance, is designed to last 200 such full bore launches before the thing breaks. This sort of behavior is unreasonable, hard on the equipment, and completely unrealistic. Yet almost all magazines and manufacturers do it. "...
I read an article on the Corvette Z06 (aka 6 speed MANUAL) , about an engineer whose job job it is to ACTUALLY get the advertised 0 to 60 mph times. (the article cited 4 seconds at the time). NICE JOB! I hope he gets to keep it given the current Bail Out Dog & Pony Shows. The manual transmission is designed for 100 "full bore launches" before the probably of components breaking increases. (i.e., dramatically
Anymore, even the 1000 to 5000 hp DRAGSTERS use automatic clutch packs for the all important seamless (as possible) hooked up launches. In other words, the race variable, bobbling the clutch is taken out .
I like the 5/6 speed manual transmissions for the open road. No doubt it is great fun on the various tracks. However that (hobby) is a niche market within a niche market.
Here on the left coast, we are blessed with the iconic and stereotypical Pacific Coast Highway (Highway 1) all the way up north. If you are a road (car) nut. This drive is truly like no other.
Here, here! I drove the coast highway down the southern 50% of Oregon last October in my (then) new 2008 Outback, loaded to the gills with family and cargo (including about 150# on the roof). It was a wonderful drive, even if the car was disappointingly top-heavy at the time. We headed to central Oregon by way of highway 101 across extreme northern California. That road was fantastic as well.
I will agree, though, that automatics are easier to sell as the audience is larger. Manuals do not necessarily demand less of a premium (sometimes the contrary since there are *far* less on the "slightly used" market), but they can take quite a bit longer to unload.
I taught my wife and my brother. I tried with my sister but she wasn't interested, and you can't teach a person who doesn't care to learn.
Both my kids will learn, that's for sure.
So let's all make it our duty to teach at least a few people how to drive stick.
All 3 became totally proficient after a few short sessions however. All 3 already knew how to drive - they learned and tested on automatics. When I learned to drive, I learned on a stick, so I learned driving and the manual shifter at the same time.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If you learn to drive on an automatic and then learn stick later, are you less likely to be a life-long devotee of the third pedal?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It's the owning....
If a stick isn't your daily driver by the time you are 21, I doubt you'll ever buy one... No matter what you learned on..
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Oddly, after we had to sell it and go Subaru-less for a while, she will not touch the Escort. It is probably her disgust of the car itself rather than not wanting to drive a manual, though. I can't blame her - it is a homely little thing. :P
My wife learned to drive in automatics but went to the Grand Canyon with three girlfriends when she was 17 and one of the kids owned a stick shift car. They shared driving so she learned how to shift on that trip.
There's was a one year gap in our stick shift ownership after we met in '80, but the current dry spell has lasted 9 years now.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
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But I suppose I could live with an automatic for the next decade if need be.
Still the origional post indicating that fewer parents have manuals is a valid one. My son can drive anything that moves no matter what transmission it has and his truck is an Automatic diesel 3500 and his car is a manual Saturn. But he is a bit like me in that the vehicle choice is more important than the transmission. I guess he was lucky we had manuals when he was learning to drive.
But if we as a nation go hybrid or EV I believe it will be a good trade off even if they aren't manual friendly.
I love my car's automatic transmission! I do. I love not having to shift, I can search for CD's while driving and change them out, sip soda safely and carefully, and I don't really miss having to contort my left leg and simultaneously work the accelerator with my right foot.
A small car I'm looking at for my next car only offers a automatic transmission, too. This is the 2010 Pininfarina-Bollore B0(pronounced B Zero).
http://www.pininfarina.com/index/storiaModelli/B0.html
Once again, it's all about the car I drive, not the form it is pushed along by. :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
However to me it is the surest indication the US markets are plain not serious about fuel savings. One can simply compare the EPA mpg ratings of a automatic vs manual.
If you learn to drive on an automatic and then learn stick later, are you less likely to be a life-long devotee of the third pedal?
Other way around. The most die-hard manual guys I've seen (outside of this forum
I wanted a stick that day of purchase, March 21, 2007, but Avondale Mitsubishi (9 miles west of Phoenix) has someone working for them that apparently doesn't know what a stick shift or a CVT automatic is.
On the phone they said "we've got your '08 Rally Red Mitsubishi Lancer GTS in 5-speed stick." When I got there they had indeed a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS in the showroom, looking gorgeous. But it was an automatic CVT, not a 5-speed!
"Do you have any 5-speed Lancer GTS' in stock", I asked.
"No, we don't," was the answer.
So, at that point of letting anger flash up and then go away, slowly, my wife and I both decided that we'd dig the automatic CVT more than the 5-speed.
At least she would, anyway.
But I've grown to love it, I can "shift" with the titanium paddleshifters. Or just put it in 'D' and drive in a pleasurable manner in automatic transmission.
"I like that!"
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Is there a manual that has a higher EPA rating than a Prius? And are there any manual hybrids? Isn't that an indication of a concern for high mileage? even in Asia I understand the super high mileage cars are more than likely CVTs. That being many of the mini compacts.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Being as how there are no manual Prius', You can not even compare now, eh? And that is PRECISELY THE point. They do not make manual Prius' so you CAN NOT compare!? :lemon: Indeed part of the EPA change to perfectly repeatable testing procedures was the bru ha ha over the fact a LARGE % of Prius owners did/could/would NOT achieve EPA ratings of 60 city/50 highway.
What about my comment "As it should be !!! " precludes or disallows your satisfaction with your automatic transmission Lancer?
What is at issue is (same as message 5174): (simple terms, parasitic loss) what you would get on a manual vs your current 3 mpg over the EPA with the automatic OVER . You really won't fully realize what that would be, until you put the 5 speed under the same conditions you drive your automatic. So since we know what most folks will have and have chosen, most folks demonstrate they are willing to pay MORE for categorically less fuel mileage and slightly more convenience. A corollary: some folks would flat not have a manual no matter the extra cost, mpg hit, PERIOD.