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I must dissagree that most people in the US know what they're doing when they choose an automatic over a manual. I believe most Americans are ignorant about manuals. What I mean is, I believe that most Americans choose automatics simply because they don't know how to drive manual..and thus do not have the benifit of comparing the two side by side. Buying cars is a relatively expensive affair, and thus folks will naturally tend towards the less risky choice.
On the contrary, everyone I know that has driven both manual and auto
for more than say..two months... has told me that the manual is more fun and that they'd prefer a manual over an automatic. Granted, the extreme older of these folks settle down with an automatic eventually... after years of manual driving.
For fun oriented cars then, such as BMW's, Mazdas, Corvettes, and such..I believe
most Americans would choose a manual, if only they had first hand experience with both transmissions apriori. Another words, Most folks would pick a manual with the Pepsi challenge. Also for economic cars such as the Mitshibishi Eclypse or Honda Civic..cars like these are purchased usually by younger folk who are naturally interested in fun. It's too bad, due to ignorance, these people do not know what they are missing.
For consumers of Hondas and Camrys and the like.. especially for Camry oriented mindset.. I agree.. probably their decision for automatic is correctly suited.
I believe a huge market for manuals exists right here in the US..it is up to someone to effectively demonstrate or educate to the consumers what in fact they are missing out on.
Joseph
San Diego
Toyota makes some reasonable manuals and has made them for years. You can get a camry with a 4 and a manual. But add a V-6 and how many manual Camrys can you buy in the US. Camry buyers are some of the most loyal so why not offer a manual? Because they simply aren't buying.
Lets try and apples to apples example. Toyota made the RAV4 and Honda made the CR-V in the early days selling them as a small mini suv designed for fun. If you wanted to buy a Manual CR-V or Rav4 for 2009 how many do you think you could find? So if early CR-V or Rav4 owners had given "any" indication they wanted a manual do you believe Honda would have dropped the manual option? We are talking Honda here, they make some of the best small manuals in the business. Yet even they realize manuals don't sell well in the US. This didn't happen overnight it happened over years and today manuals make up less than 10 percent of US sales. Even the majority of the Corvettes sold in the US are Automatics if you care to research it.
It isn't that they don't know what they want, the consumer is voting with their wallet with the most resounding results you can get. when given the option of a manual or an automatic 9 out of 10 consumers pick the automatic. Not opinion or speculation but measurable numbers.
It is easy to see manual drivers are more passionate about their transmission choice. Some will pick the transmission over the car itself if the car they are looking at doesn't offer a manual option. But not even the most avid manual driver sees manual transmission gaining on automatics in the future. Remember even in Japan manuals are reported to be losing ground to automatics and CVTs. Only in the Old world are manuals still the choice of the average driver. So unless the whole world has been fooled into not realizing what they have in the manual transmission the consumer knows just what they want and what they will pay for. Thinking manufactures are missing the boat by not offering more manuals is simply forgetting history and wishful thinking. Not that we all don't spend time in wishful thinking. I was sad to see the demise of the family mussel car. Of the sweet sound of those old 440 wedges, 426 Hemis, 427 Rat motors and 427-428 Fords. But those days are gone as well.
My 1970 Challenger had four pedals under the dash, 1) Gas, 2) Brake, 3) Clutch, and 4) Parking Brake. :shades:
Best regards,
Shipo
Best regards,
Shipo
Sounds interesting. Which cars might that be? I have thought for some time that shift by wire would be an option. I had read somewhere they already had that kind of brake system on some Caddys but I had never seen one. It makes since in a way. The hydrolic piston on most new clutches had already detached some of the connection between the foot and the clutch itself. Replacing the piston with a solenoid should work as well. Once they started replacing the power steering pumps with electronics power steering it seemed like it wouldn't take long. The electronics can be made lighter and cheeper than mechanical or hydrolic parts and can be made to fit any number of cars with the same parts.
That sounds like the kind of improvement that could make both camps happy.
I have only ever heard of one model with a stick and a floor-mounted parking brake, by the way. Of course it is the Camry, not the current one but the '02-06. Just goes to show you how many Camry manuals Toyota sells, and how it prioritizes its vehicle design accordingly. Reviewers at the time commented on the bizarre design.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
i say everyone has a "price" - a certain duration/length of traffic jam at which anyone
even the mas-macho manual-transmission dudes will break down with the biggest leg-charlie-horse possible, and pray to Bob Lutz for an automatic transmission.
Maybe you traffic-jam-manual-transmission guys only drive for short trips, or are so young/buffed that your leg wouldn't cramp after 6 or 12 hours of stop-and-go with a manual transmission?
Maybe you don't do the extreme-distance-driving like I sometimes do with my manual transmission cars. (3000 mile casual roundtrip on I-95, for example).
my VW TDI has a really light clutch, yet my leg was cramped for days after ~6 hours of stop-and-go on the NJ turnpike, on the way to DC to chill at the office of a high-ranking government official.
Aside from that stop-and-go thang, automatic transmissions ALL suck.
Steptronic, SMG, auto-manuals, whatever. Possibly there even the uber-manual-transmission tuff-guys would agree with some part of that last statement!?
Nippon, I have ridden in and seen up close lots of 02-06 Camrys, all automatic I-4, and the parking brake is not floor mounted, so I am sure the manuals' parking brakes are the same - between the seats. Someone could post a picture?
No question that Toyota only sells a few manual Camrys, but at least they still offer one. I was surprised that the new generation 07-current would only have automatic, but Toyota surprised me. I think the main reason that Toyota Camry, Honda Accord Sedan, and Ford Fusion come in a manual is to advertise a lower price.
Looked at another way, I travel a lot, and I've yet to see any evidence to suggest that traffic jams are any worse or consume any more time per mile than at anytime during my driving life. Geez, I've even commuted into Paris, London and Stuttgart on a regular basis during long contracting engagements, and even the Paris Périferique at rush-hour is easy to negotiate with a manual transmission.
Best regards,
Shipo
This links to one picture I saw:
http://66.160.188.111/.ee9d355/cmd.233/enclosure..ee9d356
I am quite sure that Toyota only offers a Camry manual as a way to advertise a lower starting price, and just try to find one. It should be against the law to call the automatic the "optional" transmission when 99.995% of all Camrys you build are automatics....
Oh, and Elias? 6 hours of stop and go? Good GOD man, if I had 6 hours of stop and go every day I wouldn't drive at all, I would quit the job or ride the bus, or I don't even know what. I would definitely be making quick and dramatic lifestyle changes at that point. But I would submit to you that anything over 1 hour to 90 minutes in traffic that is literally stop and go, and not 20 mph or whatever, is rare and outside the norm. And 90 minutes I could do with my stick shift quite happily, and appreciate every minute of not owning the awful alternative in transmissions.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That my friend makes you a rare breed. You and a few others. But so rare that a company like Toyota isn't willing to spend the time courting people like you. But you know that because that is why you posted.
"I am quite sure that Toyota only offers a Camry manual as a way to advertise a lower starting price, and just try to find one. It should be against the law to call the automatic the "optional" transmission when 99.995% of all Camrys you build are automatics."
It may also be why you predicted Toyota would be the first Asian company to drop the manual for US consumption. I still say it will be MB. The problem is you simply don't have the consumer support to justify the effort necessary to give you the choices you like. I can see the day when people wanting a affordable commuter car and a manual will be herded into Mazdas, Subarus and Hondas. Unless we go to hybrids and even those three will desert the manual driver.
Nope, the current Camry has a foot parking brake only for the automatics. My '07 Camry 5 speed manual has a hand brake between the seats.
As I said earlier, it is encouraging that Toyota still offers a manual in the new Camry, but you know it is only to advertise the price. They do sell the few that they make to people like you and I.
I'd love to see the actual production #s for all cars broken out by transmission type.
So I wonder if their right foot cramps while driving an automatic. :confuse:
Maybe automatic drivers in heavy traffic have incredibly developed muscles in their right legs while manual drivers are more balanced because both legs are getting exercise.
I'll have to watch as people get out of their cars... the automatic drivers must have to really concentrate so that they don't walk in counter-clockwise circles with those huge muscles in their right legs. At the very least they must veer to the left.
It's probably been three or four years.
They do make them but they don't sell.
Most stores don't even order any for that reason.
Civic manuals are a bit more popular but not by much.
The used to make manuals in CRV's but they quit doing this a couple of years ago and nobody seems to have missed them.
Even stop and go is not a good enough reason to go with a slushbox.
It is far much easier to modulate stop and go speed in a manually equipped vehicle than automatic.
In a manual, you just put it in 1st, and modulate the speed with the throttle. With some finesse, you can crawl at 5 mph all day long at pretty much the idle and not have to clutch or brake for miles on. Just keep a little bit of room in front of you, just like the semi drivers do.
Of course, people who are incapable of learning how to drive a far superior and more adaptable vehicle, such as a manual equipped vehicle, are not capable of logically realizing that by riding the guy infront of them bumper they are not going to get to their destination any faster if they were 5-10 feet apart.
It all has to do with driver's brain capacity
P.S. I drive a 2005 CR-V with manual transmission. It is a full 1.5-2.0 seconds quicker to 60 mph than automatic, and is much better handler in snow.
(People outside of Washington state will be going, HUH?)
It is funny that you purchase, intelligence and preference didn't even make a blip on Honda's radar screen when the stupid people at Honda decided to drop the manual in the CR-V? With all of those wonderful advantages there must be some kind of mass hypnotism forcing Honda away from their money makers.
But then again there could also be a bit of stubborn loyalty to a transmission over all else? Like a transmission would be more important than an engine, body style, or interior or offered options? Like suggesting that you could glide along at 5 MPH in a traffic jam and not run into the car stopped in front of you for 2 or three minutes at a time. I drove a Truck for years and even with a granny low LA traffic was a killer. And even a 3 axle KW doesn't seem to keep people from jumping in your lane once you leave more than three car spaces between you and the car in front.
If someone insists on doing things the hard way and they are in the minority are the smarter than most people or just stubborn?
That NAVI with a manual is one odd duck of a car that the Portland dealer was probably VERY glad to find a home for.
Nothing wrong with a manual. They just don't sell.
I hope you plan to keep it a long time because it probably wouldn't be easy to sell down the road.
Of course...all it takes is ONE person who wants it.
I didn't hang out here then... next time, Craig.
As far as selling my manuals... never had any problem in the past. As you say, rare can be a good thing because it only takes one person. However, I love the 06 so I'll be keeping it for a long time. My son drives my old 95 manual I-4 EX and it has close to 230k miles now.
I agree with the first sentence but anyone who would pass over one of the best four door sedans ever built because it has lousy cupholders has no idea what makes a great car. Stop drinking, start driving!
-Happy E39 owner, who never uses cupholders.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
The '01 design I think is a bit better. That is the pull out tray instead of the individual flip out units Ithink, right?
If I still had a close to home (or work from home!) job, so most of my driving was local, I would be more likely to grap a BMW
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
(yeah, yeah, different kind of cupholders, but you get my drift....).
Who started putting these stupid things in cars anyway?
In case nobody could tell, I don't use mine either.
BTW- my '91 Ford Taurus SHO came with a floorshift and a foot-operated ..parking brake so did my 1970 GTO convertible. Which were a lot more annoying than the crappy cupholders in my Bimmer.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Thye complained to them that the American people were asking for cupholders in the cars they bought.
After a bunch of puzzled looks and a lenghty explanation about what, exactly cupholders were, the Germans all started laughing.
"Tell your customers that we will NEVER put cupholders in ourt cars...that is STUPID! Tell them they should DRIVE and not drink coffee...they should stop at a coffee shop!"
Three years later, they bowed to pressure and started installing them.
Sorry, but I agree with the Germans.
That stands in sharp contrast to the overall 1 in 11 that are sold as manuals in the U.S. And it gives me reason to believe that in some segments of the market, manuals will be around for a LONG time to come.
And then there's this:
Yet there are enthusiasts in Acura's cadre of American engineers, and they understand that other enthusiasts aren't going to think of Acura in the same breath as BMW unless there's a manual transmission
Amen.
Oh, and footnote: the 6MT will outperform every other Acura available, including the TL SH-AWD (hi-po trim) automatic, until the next NSX finally arives. In back-to-back track testing, it also produced faster lap times than the G35, the 335ix, and the S4. At Acura, it's goooood to have the stick and the third pedal! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So are you telling us that 75 percent of "the Enthusiasts car" BMW are Automatics? The heart of manual country and even they can't hold a majority?
It will be interesting to see what this economy will do to BMW sales.
5mph is a cinch to do, short of absolute gridlock like when they close down a freeway and the local streets are clogged. I chose a manual precisely because I *can* do this. I modulate the gas and leave it in first gear.(or 2nd) Loads less work. And my brakes last a couple of years between brake pad changes.
The truck analogy isn't right, because in a typical car, the engine compression will grind you to a halt in first gear in well under 50 ft at 5-10mph. There's no mass at all, after all. But a lot does have to do with the gearing. If you have a short first gear, it is more annoying, but 99% of the time you can then just leave it in 2nd. It really IS easier.
Yes, they will dodge in, but so be it - the reality is that you have to de-program your brain and stay in the same lane as much as possible. And not try to "beat" the other drivers. Of course, when you want to move quickly, you're already at 2-3K rpm and can just wind it up and go. I can slide into a gap in a second or two while my last automatic would have been don't bother - you'll get rear-ended.
Oh - you know... there IS neutral as well for those really long stops. I don't even have to use the clutch pedal to go to neutral. Often I don't even have to hold the brake due to there being enough friction and the road being fairly level.
But it's when there isn't the rare total nothing moving at all traffic jam from hell(the other 98% of the time) that the manual absolutely crushes the automatic. I'm not so much of a wuss that I won't put up with 2% discomfort for 98% better driving experience. And, IMO, 100% comfort for always miserable driving experience isn't a fair trade-off. When I rent a car, I can't WAIT to get back home and get back to my own car.
There is a simple truth to the American consumer that will not change in our life time. Improved means simpler to use. According to an earlier post I quoted by an executive of ZF transmission company the US is almost lost to the manual transmission and Asia is moving in that direction. Even European companies seem to know and accept this idea. MB doesn't make many manual cars they ship to us do they?
The trends in the US point that manual drivers are slowly but surly being driven in to smaller and smaller choices. The manual is destined to be a niche transmission at best and if CVTs and hybrids catch on the niche will be even smaller. Europe will never be the major supplier of cars to the US and one look at what Toyota offers the US consumer should point us to how the corporate world views the future of the manual. Looking at Nissan is even more of a sign.
I don't think anyone here is doubting, disagreeing, or arguing with you about that statement. Heaven knows we keep reading it over and over.
I think the point some are making is that the manual actually has many advantages in traffic for some people. There are so many who have never driven a manual and who use traffic as an excuse to drive an automatic. It is refreshing to read a different viewpoint that is based on actual experience with a manual.
I'm sure there are people who have driven both and make the choice for an automatic. I'm sure there must be people who actually get cramps in their left leg, and not their right, when driving a manual. But I'm guessing (no actual data) that there are many folks who have little or no experience with manuals who are making those statements... for whatever reason. And many more who read them and never consider a manual because of what they read.
Perhaps we should just shut down the discussion because every time someone brings up preferences, new ideas, or some other point we have to read the same thing over and over. Hey, everybody... demand for manuals is dropping!
As used cars, they are almost impossible to sell.
Best regards,
Shipo
What are the approx. percentages of each, in your world?
Maybe one in 15 is a stick.
Middle ages people tend to like them the best. Women almost always hate them and a lot of the younger people don't even know what they are.
I'm not going to guess at percentages but maybe five percent of people want manuals.
Of course, I'm in the Seattle area where there is lots of traffic and a lot of steep hills.
Other parts of the country will probably be different.
My theory is that the Accord got so bloated now that people don't view it in the same way any more, as a car that a manual would notably enhance. :-(
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)