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So I wonder if their right foot cramps while driving an automatic.
My right foot does, in fact, cramp when I drive an automatic.
This really only happens in traffic jams that last upwards of 10-15 minutes. Constantly moving from brake to accelerator and back again starts hurting my right calf, and it gets quite painful when I'm stuck in a jam over 30 minutes. I work out regularly and my lower body is far stronger than my lower body. On top of it all, I've never had my left leg hurt the slightest from clutching, even in traffic jams lasting over an hour in cities. Ironic, isn't it? :P
It's probably been three or four years.
They do make them but they don't sell.
Most stores don't even order any for that reason.
Civic manuals are a bit more popular but not by much.
The used to make manuals in CRV's but they quit doing this a couple of years ago and nobody seems to have missed them.
It must be where you live out west, but I see a ton of manual Accords and Civics in the DC area, both new and old.
My uncle just bought a brand new I4 Accord sedan with the 5MT. Of course, out of the 15 or so cars they had on the lot, the EX model was the only manual one.
I drove it and man, Honda's transmissions are a dream! That thing clutched and shifted so smoothly it was ridiculous. Of course, getting used to my GTI's diesel-like torque from 1000rpm up got me caught off guard when I was lugging the Accord at 2000rpm in 2nd gear up a small incline... :shades:
Brake with your left foot. Problem solved.
That's absolutely not true.
The main reason people dislike manuals isn't the clutch pedal. It isn't a concern. It's that they have to shift. They have no free hand to use their yuppie cellphone, fiddle with the GPS, put on makeup, brush their hair, or cram a burger in their face. At least not easily. Simple as that - they want to be able to do everything else other than drive while driving.
Plus, they also don't want to be bothered to have to pay attention to their vehicle. They want to zone out and drive in their portable mixing booth.
As for safety, a manual is far safer.
1 - You must listen to the engine and drivetrain. This makes you pay attention to your driving more, but also you're able to notice problems earlier.
2 - Young drivers can't talk and eat and drive and text and so on all at once with a manual. It takes 110% of their concentration at first, and that's a good thing - as it should be. It's not that young drivers are worse drivers in terms of skills so much as that they get distracted much easier from the job at hand. And a lot of driving is about patience and paying attention. But modern cars are like 4 wheeled XBox 360s. It's to the point where you almost need these bigger cars to fit the extra buttons on the dash. My A/V center at home doesn't have as many features as a typical Honda Accord. This is the #1 reason most young girls don't learn, BTW - they want to do everything else other than drive the car.
* minor pet peeve of mine - cars are too easy to drive and too much like appliances. IMO, if they took a lot more skill to drive like they used to, people would see it a bit differently. And take it more seriously as well, especially when starting out.
3 - Speed with a manual is actually harder to achieve. Because you always have to know what gear you are in and what rpms you are at by ear(or close to it), this combined with engine compression when letting off of the gas makes it very hard to go fast without purposely doing so. In an automatic, though, it's stupidly easy to just let the thing roll along down a hill to where it's going far too fast without you realizing it. And most accidents involving loss of control are exactly like this - the car got going too fast and they lost control dodging something, trying to go around a curve, or while braking to slow down. In a manual, 3rd gear pretty much tops out at 35-40mph in most cars downhill. And the transmission makes a hell of a lot of noise while holding the car's speed back. Enough that you can hear it over your mp3s, even.
In fact, I usually drive my manual equipped 4x4(not a SUV) without using my brakes for miles at a time. An automatic, otoh, will gladly drop into overdrive and lose all engine compression the second that it can. It's exactly the feeling that you get when you are going up a hill on a roller coaster. That second or so where the thing releases from the cable and there's nothing holding it back from rolling forward. I find it actually a bit disconcerting.
I can't tell you how many times I see people here in L.A. rolling along talking on the phone, eating, or lost in their music while letting their cars roll along in overdrive at 75mph+ here in Los Angeles. I try to avoid them as much as I can.
Amen.
If a person wants to be distracted or text message someone, a manual transmission isn't going to stop them. It'll just be even more dangerous.
Not so fast. Even in heavy traffic with the 330xi slush box, I hardly ever hit the brakes. In fact, after 43K miles, the brake pads are at least 50% and the rotors smooth as a baby's b--t.
If you know how to use engine revs up and down the band, you can control this car just as well as a m/t. I never loose compression!
I also never hold a cellphone because I am addicted to Bluetooth. Best option ever!
Regards,
OW
But I think what plekto is trying to get at, and if so I heartily agree, is that people trained on automatics DON'T know how to use engine revs up and down the band. In fact, the limit of most automatic drivers' vehicle control skills is "GO", "STOP", and "GO BACKWARDS". They are unaware the car has any more controls than that.
No manual driver, by the very nature of the manual, could be that ignorant of the car's controls, or methods of using the powertrain to control its movement.
And I am certainly able to talk on my phone and drive my manual shift car at the same time. Since the advent of the new law banning its use, I do so....less (
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You really should have to certify on a manual for your driver's license. After that, if you want to go with an automatic, it's your choice.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Can we all agree that manuals will be around, and talk a little about where (or if) we see them evolving? For instance, some of us (not me, really) remember when "three on the tree" was the norm, and "four on the floor" was the hot new thing... Somewhere in there came the 1:1 ratio, overdrive, etc... now we are up to the six speed being everywhere.
I don't claim to be enough of a gearhead to go on about different final drives etc etc, but I sure might enjoy learning something... I know that I'd probably "retro engineer" some trannies - as an example, my primary driver could afford losing 1st and 6th gears - first is really short, and 5th is fine as a top gear.
Any merit to any of these thoughts? I'm simply looking for ways to make (keep?) this particular conversation interesting.
I like having 6 gears as long as 6th is a very tall gear for cruising the highway at 2000 rpm or so. Problem is, in many manuals sold today, it isn't. Indeed, in some cases it is almost as short as 5th, and in the case of some small-engined, 4-cylinder cars, the engine turns at 3000 rpm or more at 65 mph in 6th gear. They should give the car one granny gear for good highway mileage and lower noise at those speeds. There are still five others for acceleration.
As for your comment
Can we all agree that manuals will be around
unfortunately we CANNOT all agree on that, as I'm pretty sure (although I won't speak for him) that boaz and a couple others think the manual is ultimately doomed, although they have not given us a timeline for when its ultimate demise will be.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Launch control would make launching easy for even unskilled drivers - floor the accelerator, raising revs to a preset number, and dump the clutch for a quick launch.
My favorite feature, no-lift shifting, would have the engine automatically cut throttle despite flooring the accelerator while you quickly kick the clutch and shift gears, safely cutting shift times by a decent bit. Oh, and the engine can be programmed to hold boost for one second while shifting on turbocharged cars, such as the new Cobalt SS. Fun stuff.
Even outside of stop and go traffic, any situation with frequent braking such as city driving with lots of stop signs and turns can induce the cramp.
I could go against normal practice and brake with my left foot, but then what's the point of driving an automatic?
What indeed?! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Can we all agree that manuals will be around
unfortunately we CANNOT all agree on that, as I'm pretty sure (although I won't speak for him) that boaz and a couple others think the manual is ultimately doomed, although they have not given us a timeline for when its ultimate demise will be.
Eh well, if anything manuals will exist for at least a few decades somewhere in the world, I think we can agree on that. If not the US then Europe and many third world countries such as Pakistan and India.
Of course, if we're talking about ultimate doom, then I agree that a few hundred years from now the manual transmission, or anything from the cars of today, will only be known through history books and stories passed down from generation to generation. :P
While I will be glad if manuals live on somewhere, it won't be much comfort to me if I have no manuals available to buy here in the U.S. :-/
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And can you imagine little sports cars like the Miata whose sole defining purpose is to be fun to drive losing the stick? I think not!
Besides, if it does, you and I can go raid the museums together.
OK... but why are these the only "possible" evolution? I believe they are both neat things to have, but "only possible?" I mean, I can remember when the 6 speed was a fantasy - never happen, and why would you need all that anyway, and how would they fit that on a shift pattern, and where would "reverse" go... etc
I do believe this is true. And I don't think that Europeans are too cheap as for choosing a manual over an automatic. They have Opel (Saturn) Astras, Volkswagen Golfs and the like with big car options like leather, laser controlled speed control, park sensors, power folding exterior mirrors, bi-xenon headlamps with washers, heated/cooled leather seating, navigation, and dual zone automatic climate control. Know how much these hatches end up costing?
Around $40,000 U.S.D.
I also believe that most Europeans must be smarter drivers than Americans what with more extensive driver's training and the obviously higher speed limits. French autoroutes have speeds in the neighbourhood of 80mph and the unrestricted stretches of German Autobahn. They have fewer accidents, and fewer fatalities.
Americans just could NEVER handle something like this because of a lack of training, care, lane discipline, and intelligence. The higher level of conservatism here doesn't help either but I blame Europe's Puritan trash for that mantra which includes "work hard and you will succeed" and all that drivel.
You are concerned about cramps.
With a clutch, you could cramp both legs.
With an auto, you may cramp one leg, the right one.
Even if that is your #1 concern, you have 50% better odds with the automatic, because you can rest one leg.
Shoot, I'm a manual fan, but some folks in here drink too much clutch-supplier Kool-Aid, I swear.
I've yet to even feel the slightest cramp in my left leg because of the clutch, even when stuck in heavy traffic, both on the highway and in cities, for upwards of 2 hours. I think it has to do with the fact that I'm using a full range of leg motion vs pivoting on the heel of my right leg. And because I don't have to stand on the brakes because of the auto creep, my right leg isn't nearly as busy, except maybe on steep inclines.
I've been almost exclusively driving a manual car for over a year and a half now, and I've yet to feel the slightest pain in either leg (the exception being when I banged my knees really hard falling and it hurt no matter what I did...). I drove an auto for a few years prior, and I had cramps every once in a while. It can't be psychosomatic or something, since I fully expected a pained left leg when I was learning.
*shrug* No Kool-Aid here, just honest truth.
So think about it...which one is more likely to cause pain over the long haul?
Let's lay it out. To drive from a stop to 60mph with an auto, here's is what your feet do:
Right leg: off brake to gas.
That's it.
Now, with a 6 speed manual:
left leg on the clutch
right arm shift to first
left leg off the clutch slowly
right leg on the gas in synch with left leg
left leg to the dead pedal
right arm to elbow rest
left leg to the clutch
right leg off the gas
right arm shift to 2nd
left leg off the clutch slowly
right leg on the gas in synch with left leg
left leg to the dead pedal
right arm to elbow rest
left leg to the clutch
right leg off the gas
right arm shift to 3rd
left leg off the clutch slowly
right leg on the gas in synch with left leg
left leg to the dead pedal
right arm to elbow rest
left leg to the clutch
right leg off the gas
right arm shift to 4th
left leg off the clutch slowly
right leg on the gas in synch with left leg
left leg to the dead pedal
right arm to elbow rest
left leg to the clutch
right leg off the gas
right arm shift to 5th
left leg off the clutch slowly
right leg on the gas in synch with left leg
left leg to the dead pedal
right arm to elbow rest
left leg to the clutch
right leg off the gas
right arm shift to 6th
left leg off the clutch slowly
right leg on the gas in synch with left leg
left leg to the dead pedal
right arm to elbow rest
OK, honestly now, which one is simpler? Which one is less fatiguing? Less likely to cause a cramp?
I'm not saying you will get a cramp with a manual, just that you are less likely to have any sort of fatigue in the one-step process vs. the 125 step process.
I believe manuals are better - more efficient, cost less, more control, lots of reasons. Ease of use is not one of those reasons, nor is fatigue or cramping.
As for the auto creep - you can just slip an auto in to Neutral and that's that.
right arm shift to first
left leg off the clutch slowly
right leg on the gas in synch with left leg
left leg to the dead pedal
right arm to elbow rest
left leg to the clutch
right leg off the gas
right arm shift to 2nd
left leg off the clutch slowly
Etc, etc, etc....
OR...
Shift from first to second as above....
Run second all the way up to 50 mph....
Shift to sixth....
Just Kidding
Ya got me.
Well now we've heard from someone who has experienced those cramps and I'm sure that there is someone who actually got them in their left leg with a stick too.
However, I was just trying to make a tongue-in-cheek point that a leg cramp was a pretty weak argument to avoid using a manual in traffic. :shades:
With a stick, the problem is more in terms of wear-and-tear to the joints. Knees especially.
I guess it's the opposite - with an auto your legs don't move, with a manual your legs move constantly.
My mom had to give up manuals due to her arthritis plus worn cartiledge on her left (clutch) knee.
I'm not arguing that a manual is easier to drive, simpler in number of steps, or less fatiguing. Just saying that I'm a freak that cramps with an auto but not with a manual because of how each is driven. Arguing with me doesn't change that, not sure why we're still on this topic. :P
By the way, shifting to neutral isn't all that useful when you have to move forward every several seconds... With all these workarounds you might as well have three pedals instead of two! :shades:
Run second all the way up to 50 mph....
Shift to sixth....
Just Kidding
Why, there's something wrong with that? When I want to get moving quickly but don't want to exceed the speed limit that's exactly what I do. I very seldom run thru all 6 gears in a row.
-Frank
I mean, depending on where I am I do a lot of "1-3-5-6" shifting myself.
Thanks for not assuming what I might say but I agree pretty much with your estimate. And you know me pretty well by now. Like I said many posts ago I believe MB will be the first in the US to stop offering manuals. . You said you thought Toyota. But if the economy doesn't recover or if fuel goes back towards 5 bucks a gallon the ball game could change. If the US moves hard towards hybrids or something like them then the manual could pass from our shores even sooner. If fuel stays low or under 4 bucks then maybe hybrids will slow down.
I have also said the manual has a better chance of holding on if we turn clutch control over the the car computer. With a sequencial computer clutched manual then 7 or more speeds would not be anymore of a problem than it is with a automatic.
The idea you had about having to be certified in a manual is cute. You know there are more new drivers getting a license a year than there are manual drivers in our county? So who would buy the manuals to certify the new drivers on? With our state budget it sure will not be the state. With so few families owning a manual the only other choice would be to rent a manual. But here in southern California they don't even offer drivers ED so who would teach the kids to drive?
Do I agree that sports cars will be the last niche of the three pedal H pattern manual? Yes, it sounds like they might be.
That's a great sound bite... too bad it isn't true :confuse:
How could it not be true? More than Nine out of every ten families in my county drive automatics. That equates to nine out of ten households that have kids having automatics. If that ratio holds up then nine out of ten families with teenage drivers getting a license would have automatics. More than the number of manuals available. Where would the manuals come from to certify the nine out of ten drivers? Or are you telling us that there are more manual drivers than we believe?
I didn't look up registered drivers in our county but I am willing to bet there aren't enough manuals in our neighborhoods to train all the teenagers in the City of Riverside alone.
We drove a 2.4l Matrix Friday. Nippononly called his Matrix shifter "TOTALLY uninspiring" last month, but we were impressed. The shifter position looked odd since it seems to hang off the dash instead of living on the floor, but it felt very natural.
Today we drove a 5 speed Scion xD and a 6 speed Nissan Versa. The 6 speed almost felt like overkill.
Next up would be a 1.8l Matrix or Vibe. The MAZDA3 isn't on the list because of the poor crash test results unless my wife rethinks that.
I drove a friend's manual ECHO for an hour a year ago, and tooled around in a Miata for 10 minutes one day last summer so shifting drive time has been very limited since we owned a stick ten years ago. It took about a minute to readjust. :shades:
The other interesting thing about hitting three dealers this weekend (for literally the first time since 1999), was how good every sales guy we had was. All of them knew their product, none of them was pushy, and only one guy bothered to write down driver's license info. The Honda guy didn't even ask to see our licenses.
Seniors are considered a very low liability risk :shades:
(American Automotive Racing Party)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxNZ1p13rJw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JZmcUX-IsI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FItiAxpUlI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtB8F3ieHMM....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=segBM1Sh_qs&feature=related....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf3TCCVnxic&feature=related....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVWj8B-ueSk....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYOo2u9UPAU....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUFBl-CVaDM&feature=related....
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1724081....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA0aHEFCIHQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fInatX9uiCg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-x8F_SpSQ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0c0PGXpJWs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jzdkHKN0TU&feature=related#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WypkzocFxXg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Jy32d--R2A&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtcNB32HY2Q&feature=related\
Curious question would is would a person who was drunk say between .08-.15 be a better driver than some of these people in the various clips above.
1. Some people still buy them for performance, hence the high take rate on Mustangs and the new Camaro pre-orders.
2. You HAVE to buy the manual in some models to get the special high-fuel-economy trim. The new Cobalt XFE is that way, and of course the news item itself was spurred by the high level of interest that GM is suddenly seeing in manuals.
3. This is still fairly discouraging, given that it comes from Hurst:
Nate Shelton, chairman of Hurst Performance Vehicles, doesn't disagree about stick shift's long-term potential, but says the brand has new life based on fond memories. "I think manual transmissions are probably not long-lived," he says. The shifter's appeal is mostly "buying them because of their nostalgia factor."
I still say the manual will hang around in many sporty applications for the next 40 years (which is all I care about), especially among small-engined applications. And I bet it has at least 20 years to go in small commute cars. There, I am putting some hard numbers on it! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But the rest of the market? Look - the main reason they don't offer it is that any mechanic can change a clutch or crack a case and replace a couple of worn gears. But replacement mega-matics with a dozen computers and so on in it are a golden goose to the manufacturers at $4000+ a pop. Porsche had the same problem for a while, though. They tried to swap it all for their tiptronic and it failed. But some person in a Camry or Accord? Get rid of the option and 99% of the people who fit the demographic to buy one will shrug their shoulders and get over it.
There I pretty much agree. Add to that the green factor and you see what the manual is up against. Automatics can be programed and people can't. Just about everyone that drives a manual loves to shift late to hear and feel the engine. I am sure there are a few exceptions but not many. So it is a combination of consumer preference, apathy, and government intervention that will make manuals a niche transmission at best. To put numbers to my prediction much like Nippon did his I think manuals will not be standard in any car in 25 years and will be offered as an option only. Sports cars will more than likely use that option more than any other type of car with the exception of real 4X4s.