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Hmm... sounds like a fellow resident of the Valley of the Sun
-Frank
I had what I thought were some simple criteria... a silver sedan with a moonroof and a manual transmission.
What I'm finding, as I scour my local area for Civics and Mazda3's and Corollas and Focuses (Foci?), is that no one carries manual transmissions anymore. In some cases (Corolla), I can't even find one to test drive - let alone one with the other stuff I want.
What's the deal? Do I live in the wrong area (Indianapolis) or is this a nationwide thing? How do I get what I want when I can't even get close to what I want without putting money down to get the dealer to bring one in from out-of-state?
I have 9 days and counting until I purchase my vehicle. Given that I had my last one for 10 years, I'd hate to compromise and drive something I don't like for the next 10. Any suggestions on where to look for stick shifts?
J
If you are looking for a big selection, Kings Mazda in Cincinnati is showing 26 manual-shift Mazda3 sedans.... about 2 hours away...
With the Mazda3, most of the manuals seem to be Touring models.. which are a little more than the base Sport model..
regards,
kyfdx
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...these are NOT usually the corporate stores, BTW, as counter-intuitive as that is. You would think the corporate stores with their much larger inventories would want to cover the widest spectrum possible, but instead they focus mostly on volume sales in the middle part of the spectrum.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You bet, but not a happy one.
My wife's family is from the area, as well as all our kids now, so I'm stuck. Too hot, too crowded (& getting worse) and too dirty (well, it's a desert -- what do you expect?). Many love it. They can have it.
In an attempt to at least touch on the topic, my favorite use of the manual transmission in my TSX is for leaving the valley and going back to the world.
My wife's family is from the area, as well as all our kids now, so I'm stuck. Too hot, too crowded (& getting worse) and too dirty (well, it's a desert -- what do you expect?). Many love it. They can have it.
You forgot to mention too dry. My sentiments exactly, you forgot to mention too dry.
My wife cares for her aged mother from Mesa. We spend 6 months there, and six here in NH.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Nice gig -- enjoy!
I have business in New England from time to time & very much enjoy being there, and especially driving on the non-Interstates.
I met a man in Colorado last week that has a Insight. No Nippon it isn't a manual. He is a business man and uses the Insight to drive from Denver to Colorado Springs a few times a week. I asked him how the car drove and he just looked at me and said, "it gets me where I want to go and that is about all I care about." He also indicated he felt it wasn't worth the extra he paid over my sons Saturn and if he had it to do all over he would have bought a used compact to get the extra back seat.
The point is with the economy and every thing else we as a society have to worry about the survival of the manual transmission isn't very important to most Americans. Driving for pleasure is going to be viewed much like smoking in public. It seems as if the age of transportation pods is closing in on us and if that turns out to be true the manual transmission will be much like the hand cranked windows. Something to tell you kids about much like our parents did about walking to school in the snow.
I have offered to buy the Insight from the man if he decided to sell. With where I live now I would only be putting gas in the thing maybe once a month if that often. As it is now I can go three weeks between fill ups in the Tahoe and the Pontiac. But then I ride my bicycle a lot more for small errands than I did before. And I am still waiting for a plug in or EV before I even consider another vehicle.
If you are really logging that few miles, why not go with something like a GEM?
GEM
I thought about a GEM. One of my neighbors has one and he got a great deal on a 2003 or 4. It cost him 2k and he put about 1k in new batteries. His has the enclosed cab and most of the goodies. If I can find a used one I think I just might get it. But I have been talking to a guy at one of the local Golf cart places and he has plans for a little cart that looks much like a Hummer. It is about the size of a GEM but it comes with a bank of 6 volt batteries and is a bit less complicated. It can be registered as a LSV and driven on the streets of our little town, Still I am getting a lot of use out of my new Bicycle and while it is a bit more work as I get into shape it gets used even more. I did 25 miles on it three weeks ago in just over an hour and a half. Still an electric car will work well for me. The car we are thinking of building at the golf cart shop will only use about the same energy as a 90 watt bulb to charge over night. Might be worth a look.
Europe has had to deal with the equivalent of $5 per gallon gas and a struggling economy for decades, yet the manual transmission is hardly endangered there.
From a conversation I had with my Porsche dealer - who worked as a factory engineer for 12 years - the new DSG being offered by Porsche in the 911 will completely replace the slushbox Tiptronic in all Porsche models over the next 1-2 years. The performance is far superior in terms of direct control for those that want it, automatic shifting for those that don't. It will never replace a three pedal manual in the Porsche line-up, but the inefficient, sloppy torque converter slushbox is indeed going the way of the crank up windows - and none too soon, in my opinion.
Will GM and Ford take out slushboxes out of their line-ups? Probably not. But I'm willing to bet Honda and Toyota will be employing a lot more DSG type transmissions in 5-7 years - and have an even greater share of the US market than they currently enjoy, thereby further exacerbating the trade deficit, devaluing the dollar, ravishing our economy and putting the US into 3rd world country status. Sorry - got carried away - must be reading too many of Boaz's grim reaper posts!
That was funny. But my predictions are only grim reaper to about 8 or 9 percent of the American driving consumers. To the rest it is normal advancement or business as usual. Watching one of the Political new shows the other night, Maybe Hannity and Colms I think. Anyway one of the pundants made a comment that represents what a majority of the consumers may feel. "At 4 bucks a gallon we are beginning to feel almost as bad as Europe." No American wants to be treated as bad as Europe. At least that is what I took away from the show. And looking at where people are putting their money I would say manuals are not on the top of their priority list. People want the Government to do something about fuel prices. People want the Government to do something about the housing market and stock market speculations. They don't give a rip how it is done and they don't care if manuals are involved or not. If hybrids, Pulgins and EVs solve the problem as the consumer sees it very few if anyone will care if it comes at the expense of manuals.
Or do you see it differently? Do you believe people will reject hybrids and EVs because they seem to lack a third pedal? Do you believe the American consumer has been forced away from manuals or did they reject them willingly?
Or do you see it differently? Do you believe people will reject hybrids and EVs because they seem to lack a third pedal? Do you believe the American consumer has been forced away from manuals or did they reject them willingly?
I think there are different groups within the population. Most people don't give a rats behind about their car at all so long as it gets them to work and back, doesn't break and is reasonably cheap. I am sure that group doesn't care if if it is a stick, CVT or auto, or how many cylinders it has or anything else. They would probably let a computer drive for them if they could.
I think the group within the population that enjoys driving, those that like controlling a vehicle, understand the concept of an apex, etc, will have manuals to buy. Hybrids barely have a business case as it is right now, and subcompacts are often available in a manual, though only getting marginally better fuel economy than the compact and midsize cousins. I can't think of a compact that isn't offered as a manual, and very few midsizers. I am willing to concede I can't get a Town Car in a stick but i seem to be okay with that.
http://www.personalrapidtransit.com/
Is there anyone that doesn't believe we need a better public transportation system? How will driving for pleasure be viewed at 8 bucks a gallon?
People that are car enthusiasts are maybe less than 10 percent of the consumer base. People that care if they drive a manual are less than 10 percent of the consumer base. At what point does that much of a minority influence the kinds of transmissions that are offered? In this forum we have people that loved the Maxima with a manual. How did they influence Nissan? Maybe I can simply say, what impact do you feel such a minority of American consumers has on the market?
Search sites to see what the proposed solutions to high fuel cost and environment are an see how many include vehicles geared towards driving pleasure. This is only gloom and doom if we are afraid of the future. I have already admitted that there is a possible niche for manuals in the US. I just doubt that anything other than sporting applications will continue and someday computers will replace the third pedel. Just my opinion.
Tell me what you think of the posted site.
The first is the continuously variable transmission. CVT's in the past couldn't handle high-powered engines, but thanks to the diligent work of JATCO in Japan, CVT's can now handle engines with as much as 280 bhp safely, thanks to improved transmission clutch and torque converter designs and improved electronic controls. With electronic controls, CVT's now minimize the "slipping clutch feel" that plagued older CVT's.
The second--and likely more important--is the sequential-shift dual-clutch manual transmission, one that can adapt easily to either manual or automatic shifting. With dual-clutch designs, shifts can occur VERY quickly, far faster than any human pressing the clutch pedal to shift between gears. The fact Porsche will offer their PDK unit on the 997 variant of the Porsche 911 demonstrates you can use a dual-clutch manual on a high-powered engine, and Ford's new PowerShift dual-clutch manual will find its way to even Ford's lower end models (don't be surprised if the PowerShift transmission finds its way to the next-generation versions of the Ford Fiesta and Focus models).
That will be fine as long as they also offer the sterling 6-speed manual they have already said they will offer. :-)
Was out taking a quick peek at the new Astra last night: was a little shocked to discover that on this model at at least, the automatic transmission is up close to a $1400 premium over the manual shift!!! :surprise:
Why spend $1400 more for the less enjoyable model? Americans never cease to amaze me. ;-)
In a bright bit of news that genuinely took me by surprise, Toyota just announced this week that beginning this fall their smaller models with manual transmissions will use a new lightweight SIX-SPEED manual in order to enhance fuel economy. Toyota? Making an investment in advancing the manual transmission? Will wonders never cease!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
raychuang...Mitsubishi is already all over those two types like white on rice. My 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS has a 2.0L 152 hp motor and a CVT transmission. The "shifts" are as smooth as a baby's a@#. No kidding. Smooth as a freshly shaven face.
I have power-shifted with it, of course. It doesn't hurt that Mitsu built my '08 Lancer GTS to be a baby EVO, with improved front suspension assemblies and Dunlop performance tires. What a great car. And nippononly, I know you won't believe this, but I know I used to preach the "5-speed or 6-speed manual" all of the time.
There is life after manual transmissions! This baby shifts and handles like a dream. I mean, even with my 2.0L 4 cylinder producing 152 horses and 146 pounds/ft. torque, I could really tick people off riding with me powering in to the turns. Of course, I've already done just that. My wife reacts quickly and decisively whenever I do that type of thing. The fun ends fast! This car will track and turn on a dime and downshifting or upshifting is done with a quick flick and the engine and CVT don't waste a speck of time. I mean, it's like right there, in your face...DONE! And then you punch it and move out.
I gotta admit, when I entered my Mitsu dealer in Avondale, west of Phoenix, they didn't have a Rally Red '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS with a 5-speed manual tranny in stock. They had one with a CVT tranny! I spat out in anger at a few of them in the front of the store. Why did they tell me over the phone that they had a 5-speed then?
Yikes, it must be hard to get competent help these days. But then, after talking about it with my wife, and thinking it out loud, we decided we did want the automatic CVT. I had to dispense a cold Pepsi, cool off, and then test drive the car first. Yes, it was tensioning to watch them drive it out of the showroom. Man, talk about tight car-to-door tolerances there!
All of this in my excitement to say to you that I love the car and the automatic CVT with 6 forward and "reverse" speeds to paddle shift and it's a hoot to drive! I think that manual or CVT both would work for me. And in the future, with electrics/hybrids, etc., I see CVT's and DSG's fillin' up our sales lots. The transition can be made, it can be done, and a lot of people are switching over.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I disagree, but without debate, where would we be?
The first is the continuously variable transmission. CVT's in the past couldn't handle high-powered engines, but thanks to the diligent work of JATCO in Japan, CVT's can now handle engines with as much as 280 bhp safely, thanks to improved transmission clutch and torque converter designs and improved electronic controls. With electronic controls, CVT's now minimize the "slipping clutch feel" that plagued older CVT's.
So using a bunch of new, not yet available technology, they can make it feel almost as good as 50 year old existing technology? Amazing.
The second--and likely more important--is the sequential-shift dual-clutch manual transmission, one that can adapt easily to either manual or automatic shifting. With dual-clutch designs, shifts can occur VERY quickly, far faster than any human pressing the clutch pedal to shift between gears.
I don't think that is the point. It takes control away from the driver, it is less engaging then a true manual transmission, and is less responsive to the wishes of the driver.
I see CVTs replacing miserably inefficient automatic transmissions, and sequential manuals replacing automatic transmission boy-racer models. As an enthusiast, I wouldn't be interested in either. If I was injured or had some type of additional influence affecting my purchase decision, I might feel differently.
I would make the point that coming from a Kia SUV, it wouldn't take much to make you feel like your current vehicle handled better and was more powerful. Its not a bad thing, just a different basis for comparison.
I have had a lot of seat time in CVTs lately (including Mitsu's), and can't say I was overly impressed. I think as a replacement for an inefficent slush box, it might be great, especially with smaller motors, but I really didn't see any type of remotely sporting intentions. I also wonder which is more complicated, all the belts and bands and pulleys in a CVT vs some of the 6-7 speed automatics. I also see diminishing returns, my mountain bike has 30 speeds, and I only use 5-6 most of the time.
Besides, what's the point of offering two different automatic transmissions? Especially in the US market, where manufacturers offer the least variations of drivetrains possible due to high cost of certifying them and building cars few people want to buy. The choices are easy: DCT for those that want automatics and/or ultimate performance, and manuals for the cost-conscious and those that feel that rowing their own gears is more satisfying.
In no particular order, let's recap some of the main things we've learned about the future of the manual transmission in this thread (gee, isn't that the title?
Americans overall are too lazy to shift their own gears. Anyone born in the 80s or later is very, very unlikely to know how to drive a stick. Based on what I've seen, though, there's a mini-resurgence with the younger crowd, whom seem to be the only statistically relevant market for manuals. Then again, nothing could've changed, and I just haven't been alive long enough to know otherwise.
Three pedals are rare in the modern supercar market.
Porsche has finally (re-)introduced the PDK and so Lamborghini and Aston Martin are the last real holdouts. With VW's upgraded DSGs for their S and RS cars coming out very soon now, I expect to see a Lamborghini-branded DSG by 2010 at the latest. A big screw-you to/by the Nissan GT-R for diehard threepedalphiles (hmm... probably not the best term to use :P)
Also, Ferrari has a hard-on for anything with flappy paddles. Anyone who doesn't can buy an old one or write them a blank check and expect their net worth to drop significantly - you can ask the guy who had the Ferrari produce the only factory-equipped manual 360 Challenge Stradale in existence.
Purist-hating companies such as Nissan, Toyota, and the US domestic manufacturers have all but abandoned manuals in the majority of their lineups.
Most European manufacturers still offer manuals on their sportier cars, as in Europe that's the dominant transmission. However, a lot of times manuals are offered in inconvenient combinations. Want an Audi A3 with quattro AND a manual? Too bad!
DCTs are the new automatics and, probably for the first time ever outside of the dragstrip, perform way better thanks to lightning fast shift speeds and allowing the driver to keep both hands on the wheel. Personally, I'd rather invest in HPDE courses than assume a DCT will allow me to go faster around a track, but to each his own.
Everybody's been basically regurgitating the same stuff for the last few thousand (!) posts, so I figured I'd make it easier on newer thread readers.
On a slightly off-topic note, does anyone know what the hell is in Mercedes's new SL63??? A Multi-Clutch Transmission with 8 clutch plates, wtf!?
Mitsubishi tests their cars out in races. Like, for instance, the Paris to Dakar Rally, and learns new things about building their products better from the results. I like that method of building and testing. Then they incorporate these things in to their latest new vehicle designs...automobiles and SUV's. The UK airports are buying the Mitsubishi L200 trucks for their workers because of their great reliability and reasonable price. Not rocket science, just good automotive sense going on here.
My point of that post was simply to state that I tried a vehicle with a CVT and I actually like it, maybe more than a manually-trannied rig. This may not be your cup a coffee, I realize. But what's that to me. I don't know you from Adam and you don't know me. People are still entitled to their opinions and people reading this column can learn new things. I stated it already but without backtracking to a 2001 Kia Sportage 4X4 with a 5-speed manual transmission as an earmark, let me just say this. About that.
My '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS' automatic CVT "shifts" smoothly. Like a hot knife through butter. Smooth as a newborn's a*&. And smooth, like a clean 'Lectra shave. Simple. Open. Honest.
If Kobe Bryant was really an honest man, he wouldn't have said that the 2008 NBA Finals are "far from over," now would have he? Huh?
Pfft.
Drive what you like and drive 'em hard and drive 'em gleefully.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I didn't mean to make it come across like a personal attack or something, I should be a little more careful with how I say things. I am also very glad you are enjoying your ride. Its a challenge to find something economical that we enjoy driving (as I have failed recently) but requirements for how that is defined may vary.
I really enjoy the interaction with the vehicle afforded by a manual transmission. I think that I would really miss that. It is a big part of what makes the vehicle enjoyable to me. As part of my job, I spend a lot of time driving various cars for evaluation, but I really haven't found any psuedo-stick that could hold my attention.
I think the CVT has its place and the concept is very good - hold the engine at either peak output or peak efficiency - but all these goofy things to make it "feel"like its something its not are dumb, IMHO. Of course, fun is vastly underated.
I think it helps to have a 650-watt Rockford Fosgate stereo CD player, sunroof, etc. These things can distract you from needing to forage with your left leg, don't ya know. Or so that's the why I see it. I'm Bruce Williams. No, just kidding. Remember Bruce Williams, the radio talk show host on Talk Net for literally decades? Great show for financial advice, house-building advice, etc. He and Sally Jesse Raphael both hosted the show, at different times. Bruce must've finally retired, I don't hear squat from him any more.
"Drive 'em like ya stole'd 'em."
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2) The transmission gave a "slipping clutch" feel during acceleration. Thanks to modern electronics, they can program the CVT so it minimizes that feel during acceleration; JATCO did this with the CVT on the current Altima and Maxima.
I still think CVT's are a great idea, because since you really have essentially an infinite range of gear ratios you can highly optimize the ratio for the best balance between power and fuel economy regardless of engine speed. That's why the FIA banned CVT's in Formula One during the early 1990's--the FIA feared that the CVT would allow for extremely fast acceleration far faster than even sequential manual transmissions.
Just for discussion, when do you see diminishing returns on the infinitive combinations? For example, how does that work compared to a 7 or 8 speed traditional automatic?
It also seems like the CVT in no way represents the future of the manual. It doesn't share any commonalties in terms of use, operation, or actuation, so if anything it would be the demise of the manual, not the future.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Can you please provide a link? Hey, you were always one of the people saying that Toyota is going to abandon the manual transmission, weren't you! :P
Anyway, it's the 6-speed they have already had for a year in Australia:
http://www.caradvice.com.au/2727/new-toyota-corolla-six-speed-manual/
Edit....or maybe it's not? This is the news from this week, and it seems to indicate that what they are introducing this fall is brand new. Could just be a new PR spin on the transmission they have already been using globally, however.
"As for transmissions, Toyota will introduce a highly efficient compact six-speed manual transmission in the fall of 2008, while advancing multi-stage automatic transmissions and CVTs."
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080612/153224/
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I like the latest metal-belt CVT's because unlike traditional automatics or even dual-clutch sequential manual transmissions, CVT's are mechanically far simpler, which means potentially lower production costs. Now that the technology has finally matured for high-powered applications, we can take advantage of this technology on vehicles up to 280 bhp with no problems.
Two minutes later, the salesman is in the manager's office, and I can hear things being said like, "She tried" and "she was freaking out" and "I offered to teach her", etc. etc. Next things I could hear was "trying to get an automatic from another store is *bleep* impossible right now..."
I don't know what happened after that, but it was pretty funny and sad at the same time.
You're right. It is sad, for a number of reasons.
I actually liked the CVT on a 2.5l Altima I tested.
Then I drove a 2.4l Outlander with the CVT and it felt totally disconnected.
I'd consider a CVT if it felt like Nissan's, but not Mitsu's.
-Frank
Nissan has probably done the best job making CVT's feel more "normal" because they tweaked the computer that controls the transmission for a stronger acceleration feel than with regular CVT's.
On my 1998 Honda Civic HX CVT, when you accelerate the engine holds at 2,500 RPM but the car still accelerates--it's a bit unusual but the acceleration is very smooth--so much so that 85 mph can sneak up on you if you're not careful. :surprise:
None of these things have anything to do with being lazy or talented. It is all about convienince and ease of use. Almost any of us could change the channel on our TV manually or at least by walking up to it and hitting the up or down button but it is easier to use the remote.
Sports car drivers just may be interested enough or purest enough to keep a third pedal in a sports car but more than likely there simply aren't enough manual drivers in the other areas to give them a rosy future. The feel defense simply isn't something that can be measured.
Some have suggested that as long as there are enthusiasts that enjoy and prefer manuals their favorite manufacturer will offer a manual in their favorite car. Two of the most popular small SUVs are the Honda CR-V and the Rav4. Did they ever sell many manuals? I don't know but how even many they did sell wasn't enough to keep making them. We even have people in these forums that once loved the Maxima because it came with a manual. At some point Renault/Nissan decided there simply weren't enough manual drivers to keep making a manual for the Maxima. Things like that put the statement that as long as enthusiasts demand manuals they will make manuals into question. It seems as if we are headed towards a future where only one transmission will be offered for just about evey car we can buy. If they ever get to that point I am pretty sure a third pedal manual will not be the single choice transmission of the future.
And all the luxo brands sure hype their six and seven speed automatics, paddle shifters, etc.
It may be a toss-up which disappears first in the US - manuals or "keys."
But guess what? $4.57/gallon, that's what. I hope we see a retrenchment among mainstream models to smaller, MUCH more fuel-efficient engines, in conjunction with aggressive weight reduction and slower target times for acceleration. When all that occurs, the manual can be a powerful tool to maintain some of the speed people are used to while greatly boosting fuel economy at the same time.
Let's face it, all cars won't be hybrids tomorrow. Among the ones that are not, properly geared manual shifts can provide big gains in fuel economy, especially real-world fuel economy (less so for the new silly EPA system that significantly underrates most small-engined cars)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Steve. Sure, I can say US drivers and an increasing percentage of Asian drivers from what we have been reading. Still doesn't help the image of the manual in the US.
Manuals could even if the examples we get don't tend to. Just saw a Smart up close today while at the produce store. No manual and it has anything but a manual. And then real world mileage for the Smart isn't all that impressive either.
I will give you that it would be easier for the manufacturer if they could get people interested in manuals, but they aren't likely to find a way to make people "want" to learn to drive a manual. Without a desire to learn to use a clutch a CVT makes a pretty good alternative. That may be why Hybrids aren't offering manuals. It may be why the number one selling hybrid from Toyota isn't offered as a manual. The number one way to sell any product in the US is to say it is easy to use. You do realize that most driving schools here don't offer manuals to learn on? I know they can be found but who will make the effort? I disagree about the CR-V and Rav4. They were always small 4 bangers and never so powerful that you didn't notice the difference between the Auto and manual. That 90+ percent of the consumers in the US is also Civic and Corolla drivers as well driving automatics.
I think many have the "hope" manuals will continue to be offered far into the future. But that hope assumes that pure ICE powered cars remain the primary form of personal transportation. High priced gas will have a greater impact on the kind of car we drive in the future and technology hasn't been leaning towards manuals in the vehicles we have been seeing offered as the solution to our problems to date.
Like you have said before MB may be one of the first to stop offering manuals and then who knows? I say Nissan some say GM. But what ever we say it still comes back to realizing some companies will at some point stop producing manuals for the American consumer.
Mercedes-Benz is already approaching this point because their excellent 7-speed automatic offers reasonable acceleration and very good highway fuel efficiency. Being a luxury brand, it would be in M-B's interest to go full-automatic in their production lineup. BMW still sells a lot of manuals, but now that BMW offers a dual-clutch sequential manual transmission (now found on the M3 sports model), BMW will likely offer the DCT "across the board" by 2011.
In fact, one of the goals of Ford's new PowerShift DCT was to offer the fuel efficiency of a true manual with the convenience of an automatic on their entire model line. This means by 2011 every European Ford model will have PowerShift transmission as an option.
By the way, one reason why manuals could be headed for extinction except in specialized models is the difficulty to get an engine meeting current EPA/CARB emission rules and the future Euro 6 emission rules due to the fact when you manually shift an engine, the emissions output is higher than with an automatic transmission.
And I hate to continue to beat the 'it's different in Europe' thing, but MB makes manual E-Class there also.
However, M-B manuals are not well-liked because its shifting action has a really rubbery feel compared to the shift action of the BMW manual (that's why few Mercedes-Benz models sold in the USA used manuals). With M-B now offering an excellent 7-speed automatic, why bother offering a six-speed manual?
All valid points. And I think everyone can see the trend away from manuals but most felt that there was still a long life left in that transmission. I didn't think there would be that much of a change in my lifetime except I expected manuals to fall to about 5 percent of the market. However the economy and fuel prices have accelerated the process a bit I believe. Nippons comment to me that not all cars will be hybrids anytime soon may or may not be true. What it does do is tells us that the direction of current "green" technology isn't manual friendly.
When you look at and read most of the reasons manual enthusiasts prefer manuals you hear words like, "I can hold gears till I want to change them". That is one of the major complaints the EPA has against self shifters. It won't change any opinions here but it is another reason in the long list.
I still feel the biggest problem manuals have is consumer apathy.
$6000 to repair one and $1200 for the other.
Oh, and 20% better acceleration in-town and in traffic(any idiot can slam the pedal to the floor on a drag strip - real driving is vastly better with a manual in the C class)
What is real driving in traffic? For a commuter how would you describe real driving as opposed to phoney driving? The light turns green and you slip the clutch for a just shy of wheel spinning sprint to 30 or 35 in city traffic? In a traffic jam?
Or are we talking F-1 driving?
1) If you drive in heavy traffic areas you use the clutch a LOT, and that could burn out the clutch plate(s) in pretty short order. It costs a lot of money to change the clutch plate(s) because of the amount of labor involved taking apart the drivetrain to get to the clutch plate pack.
2) Unless you know about the engine rev speed for most efficient operation quite well, too many people shift gears at the wrong engine speed, often way too high RPM when during upshifts. When the engine runs at higher RPM, that results in both higher exhaust emissions and lower fuel efficiency.
With today's dual-clutch sequential manuals, the amount of time actually using the clutch plate(s) is much smaller, and such the clutch plate(s) last a lot longer. And since DCT's are computer-controlled, it also means the engine can shift gears at the engine's most efficient RPM to shift gears, resulting in lower emissions and better fuel efficiency. (In fact, BMW has said the M3 with its new DCT uses less fuel than with the regular 6MT unit.)
The '96 Contour had 183k when traded - stock clutch (and lived in the bay area for a good chunk of its life and LA for the rest)
The '93 Civic with just shy of 200k lived in LA, Chicago, and SE MI, and had its stock clutch.
The '93 Accord with 150k had its stock clutch (although the master cylinder was replaced for $300, but that was a car issue)
The 91 Isuzu Impluse had 120k on the stock clutch living in San Diego, LA, and San Jose.
The '89 Galant was the only car that required a new clutch - I learned to drive stick and others in my family "remembered" to drive stick on that vehicle. The total cost was 2) Unless you know about the engine rev speed for most efficient operation quite well, too many people shift gears at the wrong engine speed, often way too high RPM when during upshifts. When the engine runs at higher RPM, that results in both higher exhaust emissions and lower fuel efficiency.
Unless you drive with a very very light foot, the automatic transmission or CVT will shift at the speed it thinks will provide the performance you are looking for, not the speed that is most efficient from a fuel economy standpoint. I think real world fuel economy supports this, and why in real life, sticks still get better FE than automatics.
Have enough miles been driven on these transmissions for the data to allow you to so conclusively state this as fact?
BTW, I've liven in several countries where taxis have manual trannies, and they don't spend a lot of time replacing clutches... not saying they never do, but no order of magnitude. Also, not to nitpick, but transmission repair shops don't exist to service manual trannies,
As an ancillary example of my own I will give you an example of how far we have come from the days when everyone could drive a manual without damaging the transmission. Even as an aside I will admit that when I was growing up and manuals were far more common it was always said that it was wise to never buy a used manual from someone that had teen age drivers in the house. Anyway I used to be in warehousing and transportation for quite a few years. The last job I had in that area I came into and inherited 22 employees and a 16-vehicle fleet of trucks, vans and a car. When I started all but one Van, the car and two trucks were manuals. While the manuals were easier to repair I had one truck or van in the shop at least once a month. Clutches and throw out bearings were the main cause for down time and repair. I called in a consultant team to see where I could save money and they suggested that I should consider switching to automatic transmissions for everything up to five-ton trucks. Only our 10-ton diesel continued to sport a manual 10 speed splitter. My repair and down times was reduced by 15k in the first two years. My trucks lasted longer and I was able to go three extra years before replacing a vehicle.
The problem was not as much the transmission as it was the drivers. When I would contact personnel for a substitute driver about half of the time they couldn’t drive a manual. In those cases I would simply pull one of my warehouse people out and put them on a truck but it taught me a lesson. Make the vehicle easy to use and you will save both time and money. Make the machine do the work for you and people will buy it. Frost-free refrigerators out sell ones you have to defrost. Thermostat controlled heaters outsell manually adjusted heaters. Vehicles that have automatics outsell ones you shift yourself. It is simply a non-reversible trend. Unless you are willing to call a DCT a manual. :confuse:
That's because the USA was where the first really effective automatic transmission was developed--GM's Hydramatic introduced in 1940 first on Oldsmobile models was the prototype for the modern automatic transmission with torque converter. As such, by the 1950's most family cars in the USA had automatics.
However, because of the size of the transmission, we never saw them in many economy cars until the 1980's, when better technology allowed for smaller transmission cases that worked with front wheel drive vehicles. Improvements since then and the development of better CVT's and more recently DCT's has made non-manuals far more viable as alternatives to manuals.