The Future Of The Manual Transmission

ny540i6

Anyone have an opinion whether shifting with one's left hand makes you a smoother, faster driver?

I am not faster/smoother as a leftie.... and yes, I am left handed. For me it is the same.

Ironically, my big issue when I drive RHD cars is around the turn signal/wiper stalks.... I ALWAYS get the wipers when attempting to signal for the first couple days away, and then have to reverse the process when I come home. The other challenge is that for some reason it is more difficult for me to look over my left shoulder when in reverse - not sure why.

hudsonthedog

Not all of 'em, my 528iA (' 00) has a gearbox built in (IIRC) Strasbourg France by a GM subsidiary.

I believe the previous statement should have included "currently." The 3-Series and 5-Series did, in the late 1990s, use a GM transmission. But I believe that has been replaced by a non-GM unit.

british_rover

Yeah I meant currently/built within the past few years.

ateixeira

My Brit friend, offering a perspective from the other side of the fence, tells me it's easier to have the right foot on the clutch. So moving here, for him the hard part was using that left foot for the clutch, and getting that to engage smoothly.

Shifting is easy. As a passenger I've done it for the driver with my left hand.

xwesx

Yeah, handedness has little to do with it; once you learn one way, it is tough to retrain to the opposite. I am left-handed as well and while I have yet to drive a RHD vehicle, I am sure it would feel awkward to me. I never had any problem with LHD vehicles because those are the ones in which I learned to drive. Granted, the very first vehicle I drove had its shifter smack dab in the middle (1960s International loader), so I opted to shift it with the left hand once I was old enough to do it one handed. I first started driving it at eight, and it was a bear to shift, so I had to use both hands!

Another example - I wear my watch on my left arm because that is the way I saw everyone else wearing them. Eventually someone pointed out that most people wear them on the left because they are right-handed. *shrugs* I tried to switch wrists, but the fingers on my left hand are clueless.

bumpy

UK cars have the clutch pedal on the right? I thought RHD cars had the same pedal setup as LHD?

Maybe that's just Japanese cars?

shipo

I was going to comment on that as well. Every RHD car I've ever rented had the pedal arrangement the same as here in the U.S. What I have noticed is that some manufacturers move the turn signal lever to the right side while others keep it on the left. I find that having the lever on the far side of the wheel from the stick shift to be preferrable. Geez, the first time I ever drove an RHD car was heading into London from Heathrow on a day wher ALL of the mass transit workers were on strike. I rented a Fiat that had the turn signal lever still on the left side and what a pain. I'm happy to say that I didn't dent the Fiat, and only had to circuit two roundabouts more than once to keep from messing up real bad.

Best Regards,
Shipo

andys120

Juice, you must've misheard what your Brit friend was saying. Cars don't get more British than Lotus' first road car, the '58-'59 Lotus Elite which clearly has the clutch
on the right>

shipo

What am I missing??? It surely looks to me that the clutch on on the left. :confuse:

Best Regards,
Shipo

qbrozen

I believe andy just made a typo. Otherwise, he would have agreed with juice's friend instead of saying juice misunderstood his friend regarding the clutch on the right.

andys120

Thanks Gbrozen, that was a typo. The Elite's clutch is to the left just as it would be on our LHD stick shifters (at least the ones I've driven ).

xwesx

How about the shifter? Does one start on the right and shift up toward the left on RHD cars? Or, is it the same as on LHD... start on the left and shift toward the right?

ny540i6

How about the shifter? Does one start on the right and shift up toward the left on RHD cars? Or, is it the same as on LHD... start on the left and shift toward the right?

The shift pattern is the same on every RHD car I've driven.

lilengineerboy

We just went from the future of the manual transmission to the history of the manual transmission.

stever

Sir Sterling is still alive. He's the epitome of smooth shifting I suppose.

Anyone know if he's a lefty or righty?

And maybe a racing buff can clue me in on where the stick and clutch is on a old one-seater F1 car. One that still had a manual. :shades:

andys120

And maybe a racing buff can clue me in on where the stick and clutch is on a old one-seater F1 car

IIRC some pre-war Grand Prix monopostos placed the clutch in the center as was the practice on some (not all) early road cars. Post war cars all had the familiar clutch-brake-gas arrangement with the shifter located on the right and an H pattern shift gate. Race shift patterns often placed reverse and first on the same plane, like so :

R-2-4
1-3-5

Modern street Porsches still use this pattern AFAIK. The original idea being that the 2-3 shift is the most critical during a race start.

I've noticed that sports prototype and other two seat racers invariably place the shifter to the right of the driver whether the driver sits on the left or right. Either LHD or RHD is legal in most forms of sports car and endurance racing and I think sitting on the right is thought to be advantageous on most courses.

lilengineerboy

The 914 had that type of transmission, so 2-3 was a straight shot. It took a little remembering but wasn't bad at all. I didn't drive that car enough or under the right conditions to know if it would help on a windy road course.

shipo

I originally learned my clutching in a car with a three-on-the-tree, and when I bought my first car with a stick it had a three-on-the-floor with first below first. By the time I swapped that transmission for a four-speed (with a Hurst SuperShifter III no less), I'd been driving with first gear being low and near for several years, and to be quite honest, I've never completely warmed up to first gear being anywhere else. Back in 1984 or so I took a Porsche 928 5-Speed out for a drive, and was absolutely delighted to find first gear situated down below reverse, I felt almost as if I'd come home.

Best Regards,
Shipo

actualsize

THe Ford Falcon FPV and Holden Commodore SS I drove in Australia had identical shift patterns to those we have here in the states. First is in the upper left, second is lower left, third is up the middle, etc.

I was utterly vexed by the left-handed two-three upshift in the 1/4-mile test runs I did on the Holden in Oz. Pushing up and to the left to third was something I never got right, and the 1/4-mile trap speeds show it. I hope to redeem myself when we get a manual Pontiac G8 to test. Why GM chose not to introduce that car with the manual it'll eventually get, I'll never understand.

My experience with modern RHD cars in Japan, England and Australia is that the turn signals are always flopped to the right-hand side. I haven't seen a new car that wasn't this way. I'm told that the convention for laying-out turn signals harks back to the old days when hand signalling was done out the window. Automated turn signal stalks, when they were invented, got placed on the window-side of the steering column because that's the hand people had always used.

kyfdx

R-2-4
1-3-5

That is my favorite shift pattern... First car I had with it was a '76 CJ-5.. Of course, it didn't have a 4 or a 5..

I'm pretty sure that Datsuns in the late '70s, early '80s had that same pattern...

It's great if you are trying to rock your car out of the snow or mud!

kyfdx

The turn signals on my '67 BMW were on the right side of the steering wheel... I'm not sure why, though..

andys120

that race cars closely based on production sports cars that are RHD such as Jags, Cobras and Morgans will have their gearshift to the left of the driver just as in their street versions.

ny540i6

I'm told that the convention for laying-out turn signals harks back to the old days when hand signalling was done out the window. Automated turn signal stalks, when they were invented, got placed on the window-side of the steering column because that's the hand people had always used.

OK... now I have what sounds like a reason, and perhaps something that might help me transition easier!

qbrozen

so today, while discussing our vehicles, my wife says there should be no reason I can't get a manual trans, if I want.

I dunno. Is this one of those woman things where she says this now but then a year later it becomes "well, I let you get what you want, so ..."

kyfdx

Dude... if you have to ask..

shipo

My wife just got herself a great new job and she is going to celebrate by buying herself a new car. After going over all of the things that she wants (I tried my level best to keep my personal biases out of it), we ended up narrowing the list down to a new 328xi Wagon 6-Speed manual. Needless to say other than opting for AWD, I was delighted with the way she wants the car configured.

Best Regards,
Shipo

andys120

I'll bet you have to order that car Shipo. It's hard to find a BMW wagon w/o AWD and A/T in New England.

shipo

No pain there as between my wife and I, we have ordered nine of our last ten cars since 1982. That and we are scheduling a two week European vacation for the family this coming August so we might just as well do the European Delivery thing like we did with my 530i (which means that the car needs to be ordered anyway).

I've already figured that the ED discount coupled with my BMW-CCA membership will get us the car for ~$5,500 off of MSRP, not to mention the fact that we won't need to rent a car large enough for the four of us and our luggage for another ~$1,300.

Best Regards,
Shipo

upstatedoc

The Toyota Corolla I rented in Dominica, W.I. was RHD with the pedals the same as in the states. Still, quite a challenge when driving this setup for the first time on absolutely treacherous roads. I (and my wife) am still amazed that we made it out of there without a scratch!

ateixeira

I stand corrected. Haven't seen him in ages but if I do, I'll have to re-visit that story.

They say when you get old 2 things start to happen:

* you forget things
* I forget what the 2nd thing was.

hudsonthedog

R-2-4
1-3-5

Early US Ford 5-speeds had that shift pattern.

upstatedoc

That was the configuration of the manual tranny on a Porsche 928 I test drove a while back.....very unnerving. :surprise:

andys120

No doubt it could be a bit of a shock to find first where you expect reverse, or Vice Versa.

boaz47

Why a economy car like the smart Fourtwo wouldn't come with a third pedal? You don't have to worry what country you are in because they all shift the same way. Six speed over there and five speed here.

Looks like there will be no fourtwos in Nippons future.

ateixeira

Good one...

bumpy

Six speed over there and five speed here.

The old one was a 6-speed, and the new one is a 5-speed on all continents.

boaz47

Still no third pedal. Nippon insists on a third pedal. But the question still is why would a economy car not even offer a third pedal?

If you have read the posts on this forum for any time it has been said that traditional manuals are more dependable, easier to service, and less expensive to make. The Automatic is just easier to use.

ny540i6

Hey, just curious, for those of us here who actually DO drive a stick, what are your shifting habits, and why? Does it vary by vehicle, or are you "driven" by theories of economy, or performance?

Here's an example of what I mean:

I tend to go 1st > 2nd > 4th > 6th if I actually have to use my (very short) first gear, because I find that my car's setup allows it with no lugging or driveability issues... In fact, I could easily run the thing as a four speed - 2, 3, 4, 5

How about you?

euphonium

When driving a stick I upshift when I match the engine speed with the road speed.
Only use the clutch when starting or changing directions.

ny540i6

Hmmmn....

I'm afraid I'm just not that good (only been 23 or so years!). Gonna have to practice identifying that precise shift point some more.

stever

I used to do that, but it's been 10 years since my 5 speed and I probably couldn't manage now. Would downshift to neutral coasting to red lights without the clutch frequently too .

I used to go 1 > 2 > 4 a lot and then 5 if I got on a faster surface street or highway.

elias

nygiantsnflchamps540i6, my shifting habits certainly vary between vehicles, and even when driving the same vehicle. one personal theory is that best mpg is achieved by hammering it up to desired speed by using the gears to keep near the max-torque rpm point, possibly skipping gears when i get to the desired speed.
my gm car has the "cags" 1-4 skipshift - i like this feature. i find it handy when i'm in traffic, where i can't hammer it up to desired speed due to cars ahead. when possible, sometimes i hammer it to near 50 mph in 2nd, and then do a 2-5 shift. "cags" doesn't intrude in my normal driving because i never rev it much in 1st - i prefer to short-shift to 2nd, and THEN blow away whichever pseudo-fast nudnik is next to me at the stoplight.
my VW TDI doesn't have what it takes to skip 3 gears - i rarely skip even one gear with that car.
sincerely, a 35-year NE Patriots fan with big-time respect for the "gints".
(went to the first game at Schaefer stadium: Raiders crushed the Pats)

bristol2

That's an interesting question.

One of the reasons I like driving a stick is you get to choose between economy (religiously at 3000rpm, 65 - 70mph) or if you want to enjoy it (whenever up to red line and see how much open road you have).

I certainly use all 6 gears unless I'm going down hill and I have no earthly idea how to rev-match and shift without the clutch. I tried it a couple of times and just grated the gear I was trying to get into.

qbrozen

it varies every minute of every day. It totally depends on how hard I'm driving at the moment and when I hit certain points in the road. For instance, I might hold 4th a bit longer than usual because my turn it coming up, or whatever. Same with skip-shifting. If I held 4th a bit longer, than there is no need for 5th this time. Etc.

ateixeira

Same here.

I might drive economically, shifting early but not so early that the engine lugs.

Or I might drive enthusiastically, redlining each gear up until cruising speed.

Even hills will affect when I shift.

xwesx

Yeah, I never did catch on to rev-matching either. I had an instructor in high school who used to do that with wheat trucks. He was quite good at it. I suppose the benefit would be extended clutch life.

I occasionally skip gears; On my Outback, it was 3-5 if I held 3rd to 60 and did not plan on going any faster. If I was having fun, I would hold 2 to 60 and then shift to 5th. I like higher fuel economy though, so I tended to just run it around 2000 rpm and go easy up, easy down.

On my '69 C20 pickup, I run 2-3-4 and back. Second is no good above 15-20 and third can get me to 50 if I push it, but I usually shift at ~12 and ~35, respectively. On that thing, though, fuel economy is an illusion. I might eek an extra 1mpg out of it by starting gently, but the best way to up the economy is to limit the top speed to 60. Between 55 and 60, I can squeeze 13.5 mpg out of it. At 65-70, it is about 11 to 11.5. Above that, drink as much fluid as you can muster, as you will have to make frequent stops anyway. :P

On vehicles with which I am less familiar, I tend to visit every gear (at least for a moment or two).

ny540i6

I certainly use all 6 gears unless I'm going down hill and I have no earthly idea how to rev-match and shift without the clutch. I tried it a couple of times and just grated the gear I was trying to get into.

Soooo, like me, you try to keep all your downhills to flat out in 6th?

This weekend I tried the no clutch shifting again... for me this can work from 1>2, and maybe 2>3. Anything further and I rapidly run out of road before I run out of gear. I'm also not good enough to feel that my car is especially happy with me attempting this - I can feel the gear drop in somewhat abruptly.

ny540i6

Elias, how are you good sir? Not seen you or the "Holden" around in a while. Hope all is good...

And yes, it feels good to say "17 and 1"

stever

Yeah, I never did catch on to rev-matching either.

I had motivation to learn how to rev and shift without the clutch. I can teach you the trick too, but it requires breaking your left leg. :shades:

ny540i6

I rarely run the thing out to redline - it's just not necessary, and with anything past second, if I hold a gear to redline, I'll be well into "real fast" by the time I get to fourth. 4500 RPM works well on an enthusiastic run up the gears.

Of course, we all have that barely travelled twisty road that is a great "get it in 3rd and drive" place, where if things are working well, you go to second for the braking sections, and back up to third for everything else.... ever find yourself regretting getting on the gas too early, because you run out of third, and need to shift to fourth, right before a place you KNOW you are gonna have to brake, and downshift?

WAAAAAY too much time on my hands...