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The Future Of The Manual Transmission



  • steverstever Posts: 52,683
    You do realize that your wife, in the mentioning of the sale of her skis

    No I don't get it. Sometimes people tear their ACL skiing and the next year break the same leg skiing and decide to change sports. Unfortunately she didn't care for snowboarding.

    And if Toyota clutches are like the one we both drove forever in the '82 Tercel, she can just use her right foot to pop it into first and then just shift without the clutch from there on out. I did that when I broke my left leg and it was our only car. (yeah, that was skiing too - you'd think we'd learn).
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 18,554
    I would say that for the next 5 MY's (2010 to 2015, if not 10 my's), manual transmissions inclusion is almost 100% certain. OEM's would literally have to offer NO manual transmissions in its model line up. Currently the majority of models offer M/T's. Currently across oems as well as model lines, as reflected in the MY sales; that is app 10% M/T's. Scant references to the total passenger vehicle fleet, put the manual transmission (M/T) fleet at 20% of.

    So being as how the average age of the passenger vehicle fleet is @ 9.3 years old, the extention is to 2025.

    Even as the manual transmission, (aka STANDARD transmission) remains the "standard" transmission, I have always seen it as an "acquired taste". I know there are a significant minority that would take umbrage with that view, as the premium for the optional transmission is. can be, remains an issue.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 18,554
    You all might want to convert this articles word pictures to get a sense as to why a manual transmission will remain in the card deck even at the additional 10/15 and probably 20 year marks

    link title

    Judging by the reduced market shares and how long the 27 mpg standards with defacto 22 mpg has stood the test of (a LONG) time, the 2016 35.5 standards are still 6 MY's off. Using the same ratios, the defacto standard should be 28 mpg.
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Posts: 158
    wwest - yes indeed, inductance is involved. Either as the inherent inductance of the individual phase windings of a three-phase motor or that supplied by the use of a separate non-saturable reactor. Two other necessary components need to be included. They are the bulk capacitor bank, connected across the incoming high voltage bus, and a high frequency diode that provides an alternative path for the full output current when the main power transistor is caused to switch off.

    The most important thing however is not to know exactly how this is done but to have the faith that this is indeed possible and avoid the need for a rational explanation concerning the synergy of a few differential equations.

    When it comes to electric motors, most people understand as a general rule that output torque is proportional to current while RPMs are similarly proportional to the applied voltage. So if the maximum current you can draw is limited by the source generator then so is the torque. And that should be the end of story.

    However, the fact that Volts can be traded for Amps provides electronically the same torque amplification heretofore only expected of a mechanical gearbox. A fact whose full impact is not generally appreciated. Moreover sometimes I think not even amongst those who are actually involved with powertrain design.
  • srs_49srs_49 Posts: 1,394
    You don't need a transformer to do a voltage stepdown. You're probably thinking about standard AC (115V) power.

    A type of switching regulator called a "buck" does this all the time. The output voltage is lower than, and the output current can be higher than the input to the regulator. It still needs an inductor of some sort, along with a capacitor to filter/smooth the output waveform.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,458
    Interesting bit of info for you.

    Volvo discontinued the manual trans for all their cars except the C70 and C30 for the 2009 MY.

    For the 2010 models Volvo brought the Manual back for the S40 and V50 even the AWD models.

    The S60 isn't coming back for 2010 but at least you can still get a hot sport wagon with AWD and a six speed in the V50.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 18,554

    I would be interested in why Volvo brought BACK the M/T in the 2010 MY S40, V50 and AWD models. I take it the Volvo C70,C30 will continue with M/T in 2010 MY.

    Perhaps the Green Car Congress review of the 2010 MY Volvo might offer a glimpse through the looking glass? Volvo Upgrades Power, Lowers Fuel Consumption of 2.5L Flex-fuel Engine
    14 May 2009
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    I designed my first PWM switching regulator (down converter) back in the mid-seventies, ~30Khz, 15 & 5 volt outputs.

    Aren't "buck" converters restricted to raising the voltage, lowering the current..??

    "100 amps = 400 amps" clearly implies a voltage down-converter (watts is watts), or have I missed something.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,458
    Yes the C70 and C30 continue with manual transmissions as standard all the most are still sold with Autos. I had a list with take up rates for the auto trans on the C30 around here some where but seemed to have misplaced it.

    I know that Volvo has lost some sales since ending the availability of manuals on so many of their manual trans equipped vehicles. I have a previous customer who got rid of his V70R for a manual trans BMW because he couldn't get any manual Volvo Wagons or large sedans.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Perhaps Volvo is using the same technique that VW is now using to increase the safety factor of MT in FWD or F/awd vehicles.

    VW's technique is If the driver downshifts to a level that results in so much engine braking on the front that wheelslip/lockup occurs then the engine control ECU will automatically up-rev the engine to the "proper" level to alleviate the potential for loss of directional control.

    Clever, those Germans.

    Absent this technique the liability of putting a FWD MT vehicle in the hands of John Q Public can rise to a pretty serious level.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 18,554
    Perhaps British Rover can comment on your speculation. The VW has been "drive by wire" for any number of years. In 125,000 miles I have never been able to get VW's to so called "up rev". The 03 TDI has little engine braking to speak of. It seems to be far down on the list of priorities.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    I'm pretty sure the VW up-rev technique is something that is new for 2009, maybe 2008.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 18,554
    App 7.5k miles of that is on a 2009 VW Jetta TDI. Nada so far.
  • srs_49srs_49 Posts: 1,394
    Aren't "buck" converters restricted to raising the voltage, lowering the current..??

    I think, in general, a buck lowers voltage (3.3V -> 1.5V for an FPGA, for instance).

    A boost converter raises the voltage.

    Here's a succinct summary from Control Engineering:

    A buck regulator, more properly called a buck convertor, is a dc-dc step-down power supply utilizing the fact that inductors react to electric-circuit fluctuations in such a way to keep the current flowing through them constant.

    "100 amps = 400 amps" clearly implies a voltage down-converter (watts is watts), or have I missed something. "

    I agree about that statement implying a voltage step-down converter. Power in = Power out + losses.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 18,554
    I think it is a Tremic 6066 six speed manual transmission.6 speed manual Cadillac CTS-V
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Oh, man, a great discussion about Subarus, no less, and I miss the entire thing while out on vacation. I gotta see if I can post from my BlackBerry. :D

    I think the key here is the Subaru tuned the CVT quite well. The EPA numbers are good but early reports from media and friends that have test driven it are very positive.

    IMHO there are good CVTs and bad CVTs. Nissan got it right. Mitsubishi's I didn't like at all. That's among the ones I've sampled, anyway.

    Gotta try this new OB CVT, though.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 18,554
    This is a good thing for Subaru. It has never been known as a mileage leader. Anything they can do to "tighten" things up so to speak is a good thing.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yep, they really need that boost to meet future CAFE numbers, too.

    They haven't paid CAFE fines, but I know they were exactly at the limit last time I saw the numbers.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    Does the 2010 OB get a 6 speed manual, or is it still just 5 speeds? The 2.5 H-4 has plenty of torque to handle a tall freeway cruising gear.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    6 speed I think. I've been on vacation while it was launched so I'm not 100% sure.
  • srs_49srs_49 Posts: 1,394
    Yes, I think that was the reason behind Subaru's reclassification of the Outback wagon several years ago. We had an '02 that was classified as a passenger vehicle. Couple of years after that, Subaru increased the ground clearance a bit and did some other tweaks that allowed them to classify is as a light truck /SUV. That way it didn't count towards the harder to meet passenger CAFE standards.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 18,554
    there seems to be no references to the accident and fatality rates of @ fault manual transmission drivers. Suffice to say the records show this to be one of the safest years since they started recording these types of statistics.

    link title
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    Yes, a 6-speed manual replaces the old 5-speed manual in 2.5i Base and Premium models. It's not available in the 2.5i Limited (CVT only) or H6 (5EAT only) models. Now, trying to find one is another story.

    The 6-speed is also the only tranny available in the Legacy 2.5 GT turbo.

  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    I really love that Soob makes the stick the ONLY choice in all the turbo models - it makes a statement about the mission of the car that no CVT ever will IMO.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 11,149
    It's funny that you say that, Bob, because of the three Outbacks in stock locally, two are manuals! :P
    2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2008 and 2013 Subaru Forester(s), 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Hurry up and buy them both before they sell! :D :D :D
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 26,308
    here in NJ, teens are required to take 6 hours behind the wheel with a professional driving instructor before they can get their permit (yes, the driving school lobby paid off the right people).

    one of the local ones by me has a fleet of bombers they use. If you wonder where the old K cars and Citiations went to die, this is the place!

    They also have a fairly new (certainly nice looking) Ranger PU which is the stick shift car. Yes, they teach stick! Not hard to tell it is the ranger, since it has a big sign on the tailgate that says stick shift.

    I got next to it yesterday at a light (2 lanes straight). Even better, the teenager was a girl. I mad esure to pint this out to my daughter (13 now) since it will be her turn in a few years.

    Too bad they only barely made it trough the intersection before coasting to the curb. Guess she might have had a little trouble getting going, but at least she was trying!

    Probably would be easier to learn on a nice Honda instead of a ranger with a long throw, and who knows what kind of clutch (although probably much cheaper to do frequent clutch jobs on a 4 cyl ranger).

    2018 Hyundai Elantra Sport (mine), 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's) and 2015 Jetta Sport (daughter's)

  • srs_49srs_49 Posts: 1,394
    Here is Maryland, there is not a manual tranny requirement for getting your license. But, all 4 of my kids were taught on a manual car. Three of them passed their driver's test with a manual, and my 4th used her grandmom's Neon auto for her test. But afterwards, when she went away to college, she wanted a manual so as to limit the number of borrowers that would asking to use her car.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 18,554
    I do not think it was ever (50 state and territories) a requirement to have to pass a test with a manual.
  • Probably would be easier to learn on a nice Honda instead of a ranger with a long throw, and who knows what kind of clutch (although probably much cheaper to do frequent clutch jobs on a 4 cyl ranger).

    I don't know, I always found Honda clutches to be far more difficult to master than most other vehicles. The '93 Accord was terrible, especially compared to my '89 Galant or the '91 Isuzu Impulse. Even the '93 Civic was more challenging than either of those two cars.

    I have stalled the Subie once or twice, but that was under either poor driving conditions (snow/ice) or towing something (backing up with the pop-up).
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