The Future Of The Manual Transmission

ruking1 · January 2011

I would also agree. If all you have ever driven has been a front wheel drive, front engine car, it is totally a NON issue.

If you go back and forth between AWD, 4 wd part time, 4wd full time, hi po front engine, rear wheel drive, front wheel drive ,front engine, even rear wheel drive ,rear engine, it is really up to the driver to make the transitions and the transitions to me are and have been utterly seamless.

Actually to me getting used to different manual transmissions/clutchs takes a tad longer.

lilengineerboy · January 2011

If you go back and forth between AWD, 4 wd part time, 4wd full time, hi po front engine, rear wheel drive, front wheel drive ,front engine, even rear wheel drive ,rear engine, it is really up to the driver to make the transitions and the transitions to me are and have been utterly seamless.

Miss LilEngineerBoy has an AWD Legacy wagon with snows and I have a FWD Accord with "all seasons" (ran out of money after getting her snow tires...next season I will have them too). Going back and forth between the cars requires recalibration in snowy conditions. The Subaru with AWD/snows is a tank. I think the Accord is actually very good compared to some cars I've driven (the GTI flopped around like a dying fish) but due to the tires, not as good as Subie for directional stability.

When I was getting my motorcycle license, they talked a lot about the"Traction Circle." I think it did a lot to help me understand driving a car in conditions that reduced traction. You can only give so many inputs before you use up your available traction. That brings me to something I learned from the instructors at the HPDEs; "Never run out of traction, real estate, or ideas all at the same time."

shipo · January 2011

...the GTI flopped around like a dying fish...

Yeah, a friend of mine has a late model GTI with the 18" setup on it; it was pretty much undrivable even with only a quarter of an inch of snow on the ground. At my suggestion he bought a 17" winter wheel/tire setup from TireRack, and now the GTI is all but unstoppable in the snow.

ruking1 · January 2011

Yes, a tad bit of "magical" thinking that dry grip wide tires with low aspect ratios are good to great in snow!!! One drive in snow and $500 to $1000 and some times higher , normally cures that notion!!?? The safest is to get snow tires straight away before the snow (straw hats in winter concept?) . Why increase the chances of having an accident?

lilengineerboy · January 2011

Yes, a tad bit of "magical" thinking that dry grip wide tires with low aspect ratios are good to great in snow!!! One drive in snow and $500 to $1000 and some times higher , normally cures that notion!!?? The safest is to get snow tires straight away before the snow (straw hats in winter concept?) . Why increase the chances of having an accident?

So the way I see it is a crash is a $500 deductible and higher insurance rates. Snow tires seem to be right around $500. I really can't believe the difference snow tires make on snowy/slushy/icy roads. In fact, most of my collision avoidance has been avoiding other vehicles where the driver relinquished control and I have enough traction to get out of the way.

ruking1 · January 2011

I actually watched an on coming Honda Accord do a 360+ degree "dance" in front of a fully loaded 45 passenger tour bus passing a tractor trailer rig. Luckily not only did it stay on the road, but there was a lot of earth and a guard rail separating on coming traffic. In a very perverse way, it was an interesting sight to behold. I am sure that was not the fat tires Honda's drivers take.

crkyolfrt · January 2011

Probably soiled undergarments. Or should have been if there wasn't.
So many close calls everyday across the country.

ruking1 · January 2011

Even though I knew it was real time, from the on coming traffic side I could CLEARLY see (almost in slo mo) the Honda Accord was in a trouble type situation BEFORE he started to lose traction and waggle side to side. I could not see the faces of the tour bus driver nor the truckers, but I am sure they were hoping for the best also, or soiling.....

crkyolfrt · January 2011

I read the road and users around me too. Often way up the road. It's saved me a number of times by having that extra time advantage to make a corrective action while you drive your car AND theirs for them, outta trouble. It is a needed recipe to keep out of trouble in the truck and on the bike too.

My hat goes off to you, ruking1.

stickguy · January 2011

interesting column in the latest issue of car and driver. They did a sidebar about "what is a manual". They now categorize dual clutch set ups as automatics.

I believe their criteria is that if the engine power does not have to be interrupted it is an automatic.

which I guess is the same as saying no clutch pedal, no manual tranny!

ruking1 · January 2011

Stay safe !! It is usually a pleasure to drive with "like minded" folks on some to a lot of the legs on one's journey.

ruking1 · January 2011

Yes I think what has been happening in the US market to the manual transmission is it is getting to be the realms of both the lower end (economy reasons) and high end of the car spectrums.

shipo · January 2011

By definition, a dual clutch setup is an automatic transmission. Why? Because if it can shift for itself, it is "automatic" regardless of whether it has a purely mechanical gearbox behind the clutch mechanism. Said another way, the criteria for determining whether a transmission is manual or automatic has nothing to do with whether or not the engine power has to be interrupted.

ruking1 · January 2011

Indeed with manual transmissions @ 20% of the passenger vehicle fleet, I think it is pretty safe to say that automatic transmissions like CVT and DSG are even smaller minority groups. It is just those numbers and percentages have never been published. For sure, the so called "slush box" automatic transmissions hold the majority position @ app 80% of the passenger vehicle fleet.

ateixeira · February 2011

Loved the shifter in this car. There was a line to sit inside, the longest line at the entire auto show actually.

Gives one hope about manuals' survival.

nippononly · February 2011

Better than the last Honda shifter you drove? As good as the Subaru short-shifter from the WRX?

kyfdx · February 2011

My Impreza had an STi short-shift kit... port installed..

I think it was around $400-$500 option on the sticker..... worth every penny....

nippononly · February 2011

No question - it should be standard equipment in the WRX, not that truck shifter they put in the base Imprezas.....

ateixeira · February 2011

Hard to compare, it felt very different. It has a big, cue-ball sized shift knob.

It did seem silky smooth in its movement across the gates.

ateixeira · February 2011

My brother is shopping for a manual, AWD, moonroof preferred.

SO HARD!

Sheesh.

Suzuki SX4, AWD, manual. No moonroof. Too small he decides, plus someone crashed into us. It was their only manual. None left. Great. Too small anyway.

Kia dealer has a Sportage, but FWD only, no moonroof. We liked it, though. Stays on the short list. Clutch and shifter are buttah.

Kia Optima also FWD, no moonroof. It was fine but not fun to drive enough. Didn't like the clutch/shifter nearly as much as the Sportage, which is just odd. Both of us felt that way, too.

Subaru Legacy was nice, no moonroof in stock. Still on the short list.

Subaru Forester - no manuals at all at both dealerships we saw. Bummer. Still looking.

Ford Escape - no manuals. Tested a V6/auto for the heck of it (boy is it dated).

So disappointed! Demand exists but NO SUPPLY! C'mon automakers!

kyfdx · February 2011

.. bad news...

The shifter on the Fiat 500 feels like its a stick in a jar of molasses.... not good..

crkyolfrt · February 2011

Before you rule it out, make sure you try one out that has not endured the abuse of an auto show. Sounds like it won't make enough of a difference, but just to be sure if you are anxious to like the car.

iluvmysephia1 · February 2011

Before you rule it out, make sure you try one out that has not endured the abuse of an auto show. Sounds like it won't make enough of a difference, but just to be sure if you are anxious to like the car.

Auto shows can be downright brutal on cars.

stickguy · February 2011

I don't recall any issue with the shifter on the 500 in philly. But, I would not make any judgements just sitting in it. Have to try it on the road. And the reviews I have read all seemed to think it was fine.

Tex, posted this on another thread, but if you can find a good unit just missing the roof, just have one put in. Qbrozen did it for his mazda 5 (dear, departed, but with a skylight now).

I'm paranoid about doing it, but others say it is fine.

hey, easier than adding AWD or a stick!

ateixeira · February 2011

I don't recall any issue with the shifter on the 500 in philly

Same here, so that one must've been damaged or something. I actually really liked the shifter, even commented here about that.

Funny thing is that means we sampled the SAME CAR, since I was also in Philly! LOL

qbrozen · February 2011

did it in both the 5 and the Pilot. No problems with either and arguably superior to factory unit anyway. The Pilot was far larger than any factory unit and the 5 was a really nice install that didn't take away any headroom.

shipo · February 2011

My brother is shopping for a manual, AWD, moonroof preferred.

How about the Audi A4, the BMW 3-Series, or the BMW 5-Series?

ateixeira · February 2011

I've added aftermarket moonroofs, too, a couple actually. I know the shop and they're still in business (Adler & Mandell Auto Upholstery). I would refer my brother there if whatever he buys didn't have one.

ateixeira · February 2011

Yup, all would qualify. A bit pricey, so CPO or used.

The catch is Audi folks are suggested the newest TFSI engine, and it only came out recently.

A 328xi would also work.

Both may be a bit small, though. The Legacy is now a fairly large sedan. He felt it was OK but he found the Kizashi a bit tight.

The 5er would work, used.

104wb · February 2011

Jeep Patriot Latitude and Latitude X offer all three of those things. 22/28 mpg city/hwy with 2.4L AWD.

ateixeira · February 2011

Thanks, we had overlooked that option. Drove right by a Jeep dealer, too.

Wouldn't have mattered - just looked and they have 6 in stock, only 1 is AWD and it's a CVT.

Can you really get a manual with the AWD option?

It's funny, there's what's on paper, and what dealers actually order.

With the Forester, I'm finding all the base model ones (2.5X) come with the Alloy Wheel Value package. I have yet to see one without it.

All the Premium models come with the All-Weather Package.

No exceptions to either rule, at least in the Mid-Atlantic. I searched a 100 mile radius, too.

So he may have to special order, but I don't think he can wait the 6-8 weeks. Bummer.

nippononly · February 2011

It's funny, there's what's on paper, and what dealers actually order.

It's not funny at all! In most cases (except sport models) the only manuals you will ever find on a dealer's lot are totally stripped base models, because "manual buyers are cheapos that want the cheapest car they can find".

You will almost NEVER find AWD models in dealer stock with a stick.

What I AM discovering however, which is a bit of consolation anyway, is there are certain dealers in the area that will stock manuals regularly, and in most cases they won't follow the "manual buyers are cheapos" credo. I am lucky that my local Subaru/Mazda dealer is one such dealer, so there are always lots of manual Subarus in stock, and Mazdas too (the Mazda3 Touring with moonroof and stereo package has my eye, a car I wouldn't normally expect to be able to find in dealer stock with a manual, but my local dealer always has a couple to choose from).

ateixeira · February 2011

I have yet to find such a dealer. I expanded the search to the Baltimore area and still the pickens' are thin.

My brother will have to compromise either on the model or color at a minimum.

Does the Lancer Ralliart SportBack come with a true manual option?

stickguy · February 2011

Where does this brother live? Is AWD really such a vital requirement, as opposed to FWD with winter tires?

going FWD options expand. Hyundai Toruing, loaded up with the roof standard, is under 20K sticker. and very roomy.

Or a few year old Audi A3 stick with pano roof, which only came as FWD at first.

ateixeira · February 2011

To his credit he feels the difference and is among the few who can.

When we test drove the Sportage FWD manual he commented on the dive/squat under acceleration and engine braking, even a little tire squeal.

A3 is probably small at this point (at first he was considering smaller cars, but not now).

stickguy · February 2011

so, he's a pill!

sounds like something has to give. putting in a roof as you know is simple enough, so that can't be a deal breaker.

so if he won't give up AWD, either keep searching for a new Sube (I hae sat in them with a stick at the dealer) with or without a roof, get something older and deal with repairs, or go with an AT. Will give him a good excuse to get a sports car to go along with it!

stickguy · February 2011

a forester stick near me (cherry hill- walking distance to SOA headquaters!)).

http://www.subaruofcherryhill.com/new/Subaru/2011-Subaru-Forester-4e10ab8f0a0a00- 640110500232624ecb.htm

outback premium if you can stand the color. http://www.subaruofcherryhill.com/new/Subaru/2011-Subaru-Outback-143a55d90a0a006- 401d226a71cd8aee8.htm

base outback that I like (color). just throw on a roof! http://www.subaruofcherryhill.com/new/Subaru/2011-Subaru-Outback-143a55160a0a006- 401d226a7df6c1241.htm

Nice deal on a used one. 2 YO, current style, certified, though the miles might bother him. But if you can get it cheap? This would work fine for me! http://www.subaruofcherryhill.com/certified/Subaru/2009-Subaru-Forester-d5843ba2- 0a0a0065005e43ee1a7dd6de.htm

crkyolfrt · February 2011

"putting in a roof as you know is simple enough, so that can't be a deal breaker. "

I am sitting here in shock. I just barely got over your suggestion of an aftermkt roof the other day, and now again today?? They must have improved the process enormously since the 70's. I wouldn't touch a car that had one, let alone pay for it. :sick:

I don't like holes in my roof anyway, but if i were to ever consider compromising enough and to that degree to actually buy a car with s roof, it sure better be OEM.

This is something I never dreamed I would have to watch out for if buying a used car that happened to have a roof. I gotta believe this is still a rare occurrence. Hopefully. How could they spot weld the extra roof reinforcing in place without involving a complete headliner tear down and repaint? I simply wouldn't trust impact protection or handling wiggle, front to back let alone a T Bone. No thanks.

And i speak from personal experience. Non OEM roofs, should be given a wide berth is my advice.

stickguy · February 2011

I think you are overestimating the changes they do to the car OEM. pretty much they just cut the hole in the roof anyway. There is also a sturdy frame around the opening that supplys the support, probably every bit as much as an OEM.

I am like you, too paranoid about someone hacking up my car, but others here (including ATeix and Qbrozen) have done it multiple times, with no problems.

As long as the car could be had with a roof anyway (meaning it was designed for the hole!) it should not be a problem. As long as it is someone that knows what they are doing, wo they get the drains, etc. correct.

qbrozen · February 2011

yes, there have been improvements since the '70s. You know, cars also have ABS, airbags, horsepower, and good mileage now. :P

Seriously, though, you are definitely misunderstanding the process. There is no preexisting structural bracing where the roof is installed that is consequently cut or removed, at least in the ones I've had done. We are talking about cars that CAN have an OEM moonroof. The factory certainly isn't building 2 separate body structures (1 for moonroof and 1 for without). It really is just a hole in the sheetmetal, whether cut at the factory or by an aftermarket installer.

And, with the Pilot, I can tell you that the installers I called who hadn't worked on one (when it was first released and no models came with moonroof from factory) were all sure to point out that they didn't know if they could do it until they removed the headliner and made sure nothing structural was in the way. I finally did find an installer who had done a couple already and knew what to expect and exactly what could fit.

isellhondas · February 2011

The upscale cars are locked at the Auto Shows and for good reason.

ALL of the cars should be locked. You have no idea what people do to these cars during the shows.

The shifter on that Fiat probably endured the equvilant of 300,000 hard, abusive miles!

ateixeira · February 2011

He wants the Premium model Forester after falling in love with the huge moonroof. I'm actually finding a few base models with the stick, but only 2 Premiums in the entire Mid Atlantic, and neither in the colors he likes.

Used 2009+ there is only a single Premium within 100 miles and miles are ridiculous - 80k plus.

He's off to a dealer to drive a new one right now, actually.

We found a 2005 Legacy 2.5i 6 speed manual and that's his backup plan. Plus it's cheap.

I gotta feeling he'll get that Legacy given he can't find the model/color/options he wants in a Forester. Subaru is going to lose a sale for lack of selection.

ateixeira · February 2011

I've had 2 aftermarket moonroofs (rooves?) on my cars and both were fine. They replaced the entire headliner last time.

ASC roofs are programmable, too, so you can set them to close automatically when you remove the key.

I mentioned the option to him, so he knows.

crkyolfrt · February 2011

"You know, cars also have ABS, airbags, horsepower, and good mileage now. "

Phew! Good to know

:shades:

Ya, when I was young and foolish, I bought a new 78 Z28 they had put an aftermkt T roof in. In looking back I know now what happened the bastards. The salesman SOLD the car i ORDERED, a stick with A/C and after months of him saying he doesn't know why my car hadn't come in, he managed to sell to young. foolish pushover

one they had on the lot. And auto

, this damn T roof

(and I think i might have been starting to lose my hair even back then so the sun beat down on my and probably gave me cancer) AND NO A/C!

So FF a couple years while changing a RR flat (and having numerous leaks, squeaks, creaks and fender rattling going over RR tracks, right from new) the car actually folded so badly in the roof that distorted the metal bezel for the glass panels, AND popped a pass door open from its first catch as I started to jack !!! Yup

So naturally that whole thing tarnished me but good over 30 years later. But what you guys have said, I will keep in mind, and with a more open mind.

I also learned DO NOT SETTLE when buying something next as expensive as your house.

That thing sure was a looker though..

stickguy · February 2011

given how particular he is (I know the feeling), he sounds like a perfect example of someone that should just wait if needed and get exactly what he wants.

and is the money really an issue? I know that budget seemed to be a concern to start with, but his eye keeps wandering "up"!

I know too well (personal experience)

about being able to easily pay for the nicer thing you really want, but being too darned cheap to pry open the wallet and do it!

especially if financing, breaking down and spending $50 more a month and going an extra year, in the long run, can be worth it.

Hey, is that legacy a sedan or a wagon? If it is a wagon, let me know if you pass. I'll take it!

stickguy · February 2011

how about an X3? Found a decent selection of 2008 and 2007 models nearby with manual trannies (more than I expected actually!)

well, I like it.

http://edmunds.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=293322306&dealer_id=663420- 0&car_year=2008&doors=&systime=&model=X3&search_lang=en&start_year=2007&keywords- rep=&keywordsfyc=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&search_type=used&distance=100&min_pri- ce=&drive=&rdm=1298406937510&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&fuel=&keywords_disp- lay=&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2008&showZipError=n&make2=&certified=&- engine=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=0&transmission=Manua- l&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&max_mileage=&address=08043&color=&sort_type=p- riceDESC&max_price=&awsp=false&make=BMW&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=107- &standard=false

ateixeira · February 2011

Besides the manual, he's not that particular, to be honest.

He's open to any brand, domestic, Asian, or German.

Sedan, 5 doors, crossover, as long as it fits 4 people plus luggage.

Even in color he liked both reds, a green, both blues and a black. What do they have in stock? A silver and a gray. His last car was silver so I guess he wants something new.

His other two wants are AWD and a sunroof. Doesn't seem that picky to me, I dunno. Problem is all the manuals are vanishing, literally.

Only 12 out of 495 Foresters within a 100 mile radius are manuals. 98% are automatics. Sheesh.

Legacy wagon is gone, only Outbacks, and they cost more, so out of his price range. I did suggest a used Outback, but he found that Legacy and seems happy with that as his Plan B.

ateixeira · February 2011

Good call on the X3. Found an 06 near us, 3.0i, manual. I sent him the link. Sorta high miles for the $18k or so, but let's see what he says.

ateixeira · February 2011

So he liked it. He drove a Forester without the moonroof, though, and he really wants that giant roof.

So now he's gonna sleep on it and decide on new vs. used.

They offered a good price but their Premiums won't be here until some time in March, so it could be a long wait, unless he compromises on color and the other dealers matches the price.

For now he's borrowed our dad's car, who is out of the country until April. That gives him some flexibility.

stickguy · February 2011

if he doesn't want it, post the link. I'm interested!

The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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