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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    ps, solid 0.8 gallons per hour with the GTO for commuting/stop&go/idling. VW TDI, 1/3 or 1/4 of that.
    I think I want a Volt.
    Our president just bought about 80 of them on our behalf. I might like to try/buy one too actually. But I hear they are especially non-warm for cold climates :( . (I'll be needing a heated steering wheel, thank you.)
  • hoosiergrandadhoosiergrandad Member Posts: 96
    Not if you're replacing the 10 sets on the drums of an 18 wheeler......supposed you all have observed how they slow down. Saving brakes was the reason Clessie Cummins invented the "Jake".
  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    edited June 2011
    No .,it's not faster to engine brake.This whole thread is getting whacky. It started out by down shifting and braking to stop at a red light. Then people like Shifty
    got into the nomenclature of pads gears ,trannys etc. Shipo was right as well as Shifty.
    Hell, I cross Teton Pass, the continental divide and drive switchbacks from New Mexico (Taos) in the winters as I was on the pro ski tour.Everyone knows not to downshift into a turn, but to brake and accelerate into the turn.
    That's why we Eastern skiers are the best on the hill we grew up skiing and driving on blue ice.I'll tell you what is hairy is to be on top of a mountain in Colorado in the summer and it starts to rain and the red clay is slippery and forces you to the left as you make your decent. The first thing to do is to tell everyone to get out.
    Also, we don't care for Massachusetts drivers here in Maine.We call them summer complaints. Have a good 4th of July. :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, we did get carried away didn't we? :P

    I guess my original point was that if you're heading for a red light, where you have to stop anyway, using your gears instead of the brake is pretty pointless. "Lifting off" in gear is fine, but when I see these guys rushing toward a red light and blipping throttles and downshifting 3 times in 50 yards, I really have to wonder WTH they are doing....especially with traffic stopped in front of them...so there's no way they're going to avoid stopping.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    It is probably a race car fantasy.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Probably more like confusing a concept...sometimes downshift....GOOD....sometimes downshift......BAD.

    RACETRACK -- yep, when you get into...I think it's turn 6??...you'll see the multi-colored collision marks on the concrete barriers where people lifted off in the turn
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Another one that makes me chuckle are those motorcycle types that have to nervously twist the throttle (OCD here?). As if the engine is about to die or they all have gotten bad tune ups from the same guy who knows nothing about motorcycles.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh you mean a Harley?

    On my BMW, I could have let it idle and walk away for 6 hours and it would just sit there and putt (not that I actually ever did that).

    Now motorcycles have to be shifted somewhat differently because their transmissions are progressive, not selective.
  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    jake braking is illegal because of noise around here.However, I never have seen it enforced.There is a big sign warning truckers. :shades:
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,218
    If Cummins invented it, how come it's called the Jacobs Engine Brake?

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's a brand name that has become generic, like "jello".
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    From: http://www.jacobsvehiclesystems.com/about-us/history/

    "Although the Jacobs Engine Brake has been on the market since 1961, the need for it was terrifyingly demonstrated to its inventor Clessie L. Cummins, some thirty years earlier."
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,218
    I always forget about that "Google thing"... :surprise:

    Thanks!

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  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    yup, I had to google it. :shades:
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    ...I "Yahoo!ed" it. :)
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    edited June 2011
    Did I say. imply, engine braking only on the track..?
    Certainly was not my intent.

    "..they totally prohibted it.."

    FWD..?

    Then I can understand, dangerous, that.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    No more dangerous than with RWD.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,529
    I'm driving around in my parents' car. Seems rougher than my Honda or Mazda. Like the hill holder clutch, but I notice that when you start the the the shifter just shakes around like a....I don't know, like a what? What is the engineering difference between Sub mts and others that this is so? Thanks in advance.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2011
    Upshot: who knows? That is probably pretty arcane stuff. Subaru/s by itself are a very small minority group. I would guess further that specfic model owners are an even smaller group. One that has an M/T, smaller still.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    I HATE the hill holder. The shakes probably come from the fact that you are actually applying power against the engaged brakes which take a set delay to release. In extreme situations, it is much like letting out the clutch pedal with the parking brake on. SHUDDER, SHUDDER.
    Hill holders will only further deteriorate MT skills IMHO. My older WRX with less torque at idle and a more on/off clutch had no hill holder, and I practically never stalled with the clutch first, gas second technique. My new WRX has a more gradual clutch engagement, more torque at idle and I stall it all the time. Sometimes the incline you are on is very shallow and you don't notice. In the old days, the cars feedback would have told you to come earlier on the gas. Slight incline plus engaged brake increases the initial torque required, and can cause a sudden stall. It sometimes feels like having to start over a small driveway curb. If you never want to stall, it pushes you towards the gas/slip clutch/more gas instead of proper clutch out/gas technique.
    Unfortunately, I didn't get the step up STi which would give me the option of disabling this useless feature. It's only function is to make up for people who have mediocre clutch skills or who can't work a parking brake.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,664
    I don't like the hill holder either. The first night I had my 2010 Forester, I was staying the night with some friends in Everett, WA, and they lived way atop a rather steep residential hill. I swear I stalled that thing a half dozen times trying to get to their house simply because the hill holder was playing mind games with me. Like you said, it removes the feedback process.

    Other than that, I like it. It has a better feel than my Escort. I have never driven a car with a "butter" manual, though, so it seems quite refined compared to all the wheat trucks and 70's vintage pickups I grew up driving. :blush:

    I pulled my '69 C20 out last week after ten months, and it took me a minute or two to reacquaint myself with it!
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    It's only function is to make up for people who have mediocre clutch skills or who can't work a parking brake.

    Of course, the (slightly) annoying thing about using the parking brake on a steep hill is the DRLs flick on and off every time you set and release the parking brake....

    I don't find the hill holder a particularly beneficial feature, but I am not as irritated by it as you seem to be either. I figure you drive the car for a week and you are so used to the behavior of this thing, you just account for it in the way you clutch leaving a stop from then on....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    But that is my point, to account for it requires the gas/slip the clutch/more gas technique which I was taught almost 30 years ago was wrong. Plus, it increases clutch wear. I always do that on hills, but try to keep proper technique of letting out the clutch and then adding gas on level ground. Just sometimes as Wes points out, the hill-holder plays with you and engages for what seems to be only a tiny incline. The concept is okay and I wouldn't have a problem if it only engaged on steep hills. My DRL's don't extinguish when I put on the brake.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,664
    I imagine that to be the case if you drive the car daily. Also, I don't really notice it unless I am on a fairly steep hill. I generally only get to drive my Forester once a week, so I never acclimate. I wouldn't say it annoys me any longer, but I would be happy without it.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Given that the "hill holder" was invented sometime in the 1920s, you'd think that like hydraulic brakes and V-8 engines, also from a similar time period, that it would be very popular today. But aside from a few quirky makes of cars, no manufacturer has rushed to offer this feature over the last few decades.

    Slipping backwards on a hill is often the excuse used by folks who don't want to drive a manual transmission, but even though the hill holder solves the problem, it has not "saved" the manual transmission from near-extinction.
  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    It's supposed to be a Mazda product for when?
    Also, what car would it go in?
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,529
    It sounds promising to me:

    http://www.mazda.com/mazdaspirit/skyactiv/
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    The little bit of it that I read sounded like meaningless marketing hype to me.

    The "World's Best Compression Ratios" :confuse:
    What is that supposed to mean? :lemon:
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,529
    "The new Mazda2 will get an engine with a 14.0:1 compression ratio, which means each cylinder will be put under vastly more pressure than a conventional engine. This also means it will be capable of burning the air/fuel mixture more efficiently.

    Normally, this kind of high compression is only ever seen in diesel engines or extreme performance machines. But by using advanced materials and designs within the engine components, Mazda has been able to production the first mainstream petrol engine to offer such a compression ratio. Mazda says it achieves this through the use of cavity pistons, multihole injectors and by using a 4-2-1 exhaust manifold."
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,529
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,529
    "Mazda is aiming to boost its fleet-wide fuel economy by 30 percent over the next few years, and thanks to SKYACTIV technology, the automaker is expected to achieve this goal.

    The latest SKYACTIV 1.3-liter gasoline direct injection engine, debuting in the updated Mazda2 (Demio in some markets), has achieved around 70 miles per gallon during testing in Japan. This unit produces 82 horsepower and83 pound-feet of torque.

    Mazda has reportedly applied for more than 130 patents in relation to the SKYACTIV G 1.3 engine, which just goes to show how innovative these efficient new engines really are.

    Main features of the SKYACTIV-G 1.3 engine include:

    Highly efficient automobile gasoline engine and the world’s first to achieve a compression ratio of 14.0:1
    Multi-hole injectors enable precise fuel injection control for ideal combustion
    Mazda’s first dual sequential valve timing system in combination with the high compression ratio achieves an unconventional Miller cycle that improves efficiency
    30 percent less mechanical friction, due to a narrower crankshaft, new roller followers and low-tension piston rings that also reduce oil consumption
    A lightweight and highly rigid aluminum alloy engine block

    Although the SKYACTIV-G 1.3-liter engine isn’t slated to arrive in the U.S., Mazda’s all-new SKYACTIV engine and transmission technology will arrive here soon within the facelifted 2012 Mazda3."
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,529
    I can't believe that high mpg claim for the skyactiv mazda2, but what if city mpg is half of that claim. Mpg of 35 city and perhaps 45 hwy would put it quite a bit closer to a hybrid than any other car...
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,529
    from the Mazda corporate press release:

    "....When equipped with the SKYACTIV-MT six-speed manual transmission, the sedan is rated with an estimated fuel economy of 27 city/39 highway.
    The Mazda3 sedan with the MZR 2.0-liter has an EPA fuel economy rating of 25 city/33 highway with the standard five-speed manual transmission....

    For SKYACTIV-MT, the goal was to achieve a shift feel that is sporty, brisk and responds to the driver. To accomplish this, not only was the shift-lever stroke shortened by about 10 percent compared to the current six-speed manual (available only in models equipped with the MZR 2.5-liter engine or MZR 2.3-liter Direct-Injection Spark Ignition turbo engine) but other technologies were applied as well: a down type system, lock ball type synchronizer, shift load canceller, slide ball bearing and locating 2nd and 3rd gears on a common shaft. By reconfiguring the current six-speed manual transmission, its weight was reduced by approximately 4.4 pounds due to the need for fewer components, while creating a quicker and crisper shift feel. Call it a little "MX-5 Miata-ness" in the Mazda3.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    "crisp, refreshing shift changes"... I suspect there are cultural/language issues here.

    On the other hand, I sure could use a refreshing shift change sometimes. :shades:
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited June 2011
    do you know when Mazda is importing Mazda 2's with this SkyActiv 1.3L motor installed? Because the Mazda 2 with whatever manual they are currently installing (5-speed or 6-speed) is already amongst a short list of currently-made cars on my personal futures list.

    If Mazda installs SKYACTIV with the 1.3L 3 cyl. in the Mazda 2 and offers a 6-speed stick with the same technology being installed in the new Mazda 3 with new SKYACTIV-MT, I am propelling the Mazda 2 up closer to the 2013 Kia Rio hatchback and 2013 Mitsubishi Outlander ACTiV as possible iluvmysephia1 futures automobiles. This new technology in 2013 would be more like when I would next trade in, about two years from now, twould be the model year 2013 Mazda 2, could be just what I am looking for to seduce me in to driving stick again, gentlemen. If I'm gonna row my own again I want the experience to be thrilling and fun. Mazda, if you build the 2 right with the greatest, funnest manual transmission on the market (within money-production parameters and sound reasoning, of course) I will not only buy a new world order 2 I'll sound the message far and wide like I have done on Edmunds regarding Kia Motors and now Mitsubishi Motors.

    Sure, Kia is doing better than Mitsubishi, now, but Mitsubishi makes a delicious sedan in their Lancer GTS and the EVO popularity, build and performance numbers speak for theirselves. I know the Mazda 2 is not a performance rig, but come on, neither is the 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. What I'm talking about is the fun-factor and the coolness factor. Sure, the Mazda 2 may not ooze cool to the automotive enthusiast, but why couldn't it be ever-so-cool with this new high mpg engine and fun-to-shift-hard-and-fast shifter Mazda is building for the 3 also installed in it?

    Cain't it...huh, cain't it? Umm-hummm.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "...unconventional Miller cycle..."

    NOT...!!

    Miller cycle is a "late", 1947ish, modification of an Atkinson cycle engine.

    Atkinson cycle engines increase efficiency via using an elongated combustion/power stroke in relation to the intake stroke. Disparaty for most modern day "simulations" (delayed intake valve closing) of Atkinson cycle vs Otto cycle is typically 30%. Essentually making a 2.0L engine a 1.4L insofar as HP is concerned.

    Miller cycle simply uses external compression, SuperCharging(***) and intercooling to get that Atkinson engine back up to the HP of a standard 2.0L Otto cycle engine.

    *** TurboCharging isn't viable when most/more of the power of combustion, Atkinson cycle, is used in pushing downward on the piston
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    More than a little bit.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,529
    edited June 2011
    iluv: unfortunately it doesn't look like we're going to get the skyactiv engine in the Mazda2 in the USA until 2013 at the earliest.

    In a few months the only Mazda to get the Skyactiv, and then only as an option (and I wonder how much it will be?), is the Mazda3.

    Looks like it's going to take them a while to ramp up production on the skyactiv engines.

    I really like the improvements in mpg and power that Mazda has squeezed out with this system.

    It does make me wonder about how Honda is going to respond. I looooove Honda engines, but they seem to be getting left behind in the power and mpg race a bit at this point.

    For example, a Honda Fit manual is rated 27 in the city and 33 on the hwy with a manual. That's 6 fewer mpg than you're going to be able to get on a Mazda3 hatchback with skyactiv. And the Fit's 1.5 liter engine has about 30 fewer horses.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,529
    edited June 2011
    Just guessing here, but it seems like my Mazda5, if you could put in one of those new engines, might get something like 25 in the city and 35 on the highway. That compares to the ratings on my 2010 Mazda5 with the old 2.3 of 22/28, which have proved to be pretty accurate for me.

    Oh, here's another interesting piece of Mazda news for manual fans--Mazda is putting the mx5/miata on a diet for the next generation of car, is and probably is putting a skyactiv engine into it as standard. I can't find the press release right now, but the current Miata is something like 2500 pounds, which certainly is pretty light by today's standards. The next generation, however, looks like it might be close to 2000 flat. That will make a skyactiv engine quite possible and even somewhat fast. But it will also possibly get something like 30 in the city for mpg and c. 40 for hwy mpg. That compares to 22/28 for the current model, and so it's a pretty massive improvement there, and should also make it faster. Sounds pretty sweet.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,668
    22/28 for the current model

    In a Miata? That's terrible mileage for a small light car, it's what I get from my '00 528i/Steptronic and people with gentler driving styles could probably do better.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited June 2011
    UM....diesel engines usually start at compression ratios of 20:1, so the Mazda copy is wrong about that TOO! :mad:

    Yeah, 28 mpg for a Miata is not very good. My MINI, which has 80K on it and is supercharged and is prompted by a very heavy foot and some engine mods, still gets 28 mpg at the very least.

    I rarely see a Miata driven with any spirit---mostly drivers wearing big straw hats. Makes me wonder why they bought the one with 3 pedals?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    UM....diesel engines usually start at compression ratios of 20:1, so the Mazda copy is wrong about that TOO! :mad:

    The quote is out of context; what Mazda is claiming is the highest compression ratio of any production GASOLINE fueled engine.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,529
    edited June 2011
    But if the Miata starts getting 30/40 mpg in the next gen, which seems likely, it's going to be higher than any current Mini.

    I assume bmw/mini is also working on a new 1.6 engine which also gets higher mpg. Maybe for 2013? Is that when the next gen mini hits the streets?
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited June 2011
    wellll, sorta maybe. Mazda says: Normally, this kind of high compression is only ever seen in diesel engines or extreme performance machines.

    ...when actually that's not true...diesel engine compression is way higher.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I am always tickled when someone compares the MPG they "get" in their car to the EPA ratings of another car.

    If you "get" 22/28 in a BMW rated at 16/24, presumably you would "get" 30/33 or some similar in a Miata. My math might be off, but the point stands.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    edited June 2011
    Not trying to split hairs here but 14.0:1 is in within the realm of diesel engines. From Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio

    In an auto-ignition diesel engine, (no electrical sparking plug—the hot air of compression lights the injected fuel) the CR will customarily exceed 14:1. Ratios over 22:1 are common. The appropriate compression ratio depends on the design of the cylinder head. The figure is usually between 14:1 and 16:1 for direct injection engines and between 18:1 and 23:1 for indirect injection engines.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,668
    My Bimmer is rated at 21/26 but it routinely gets 22/28 in actual driving. It's the only car I've had that does better than the EPA estimates.

    I got over 27mpg in a recent round-trip to Florida but I imagine a Miata would get over 30 on such a trip.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2011
    Splitting hairs? Don't stop there, since '08 you can get a opposed-cylinder split-cycle engine. Don't ask me the compression ratio. :shades:

    I couldn't get better than the EPA rating on my '89 Voyager but the other three cars have done a couple of mpgs or better than EPA. And the Voyager was the only one that didn't have AC.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well sure, and some people are 4ft 11" but if that's their tallest player, that's not something a basketball team would brag about.
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