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$1000 deduct for manual transmission-- I mentioned that to show that it's not an add-on, or desirable in other words, in the general market---not that it's a "fault" or penalty.
The C6 Corvette is indeed an interesting bird. It has the BEEFY Tremec 6066 (an upgrade from the T56) 6 speed tranmission. Of course it has to have a tad MORE headroom (probably 600# ft) for the 430 to 470 # ft of torque numbers. While it is indeed a light car (what 3100#'s, Porsche Carerra S being app the same #'s), those are massive torque numbers to even Porsches already MASSIVE 310# ft.
Apparently I've turned into an old man, because the reliability of my '78 Scirocco scared me away from VW. I did have an '02 Passat that I bailed on as soon as the warranty was about done. In any case, I haven't shifted in a modern VW, but you about have me convinced I should give it a try.
Nice shifting with short throws, but not as precise as my Accord. Does VW still require a push down for reverse?
Loved having manual steering - excellent road feel with a nice weight. Judging by our countries collective waistlines we would use a return to manual steering along with manual transmissions. Driving a car is becoming more like sitting on a couch.
yup.
I have no idea why ... I guess its just tradition at this point? In any case, even that is easier than the 540. That requires about 20-30 lbs of force to push the stick past whatever barrier they have in place to reach reverse.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
As for the reliability - I hate all of you guys. My Scirocco left me stranded in at least four states. I still loved that car.
You'd THINK that... But those guidelines are different if you are trying to sell it if you're not a dealer. Most people who are looking to buy a used classic BMW want manual. They sell faster and command a better actual price, because it's all too common to simply deduct the cost of a new transmission from the price if the car has anywhere near 100K on it. (any dealer will do this if you trade it in and a lot of buyers will as well)
There are tons of automatics. But nobody wants them. Then again, a M3 with manual will always be an easy sell, even 20 years from now.
I particularly like the 10,000 miles OCI's (and above)
Which makes sense, since it's easier to over-rev on downshifts on a manual trans and more temptation to redline.
I would respectfully disagree that the majority of regular used BMW sedan drivers want a stickshift. I don't find that as plausible as you do but really, I can't 'prove it', so no foul there. My only argument is that if this were true, there would have been more BMW sedans sold as sticks than automatics in the first place.
Yikes, I am starting to soften to the idea of a standard-tranny modern VW...the owner of the '01 Jetta I rode in this past weekend said he was told to avoid the latest Jetta's and Passat's because of some engine issues going on. Anyone know anything about that? Other than that I am metamorphasizing in to actually wanting to take a new world order look at the VW compact car size range in a standard transmission. If there are some problems going on I would hope VW would have them fixed by my next possible purchase year of 2013...because if VW is really serious about being the world's #1 automaker by 2018 they need to effectively cover the Passat-Jetta size range, don't they?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Too bad they don't offer stick shifts in the small crossovers like BMW does.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The fact that a transmission type has yet to be invented that can match a manual when it comes to control doesn't say much for all of this new technology. Don't believe me? Name me one transmission type which can dynamically adjust which gear, the speed of gear engagement, and the harshness of said engagement in mid change cycle. Don't spend too much time pondering this question because as far as I know, there isn't one.
As for "being constantly aware of having to shift all of the time", are you constantly aware of constantly adjusting the position of your foot on the gas pedal? If you are then a driving a car with a manual transmission isn't for you; for the rest of us, driving a stick is no more mentally challenging than adjusting your speed with the gas and brake pedal, and steering the car. Said another way, you often change gears and such without even thinking about it. Yes, it takes some practice before it becomes second nature, but once you get to that point you’ll be amazed by how much more control you have over your car (and how much more fun it is to drive).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Not really. It is possible he is referring to some of the "scares" with the 2.0T up through 2008 (the TSI version). But they are problems that are easily remedied if tackled before any real damage occurs. The 1 that worries most who don't know the real story is the HPFP follower. It wears through and, if left long enough, will cause internal engine damage. VW has recently placed a 100k mile warranty on this particular issue. But as long as you check and change the follower regularly (a $40 part), it is a non-issue.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Having said that, in terms of cost and efficiency, PDK's DSG's etc. still have not bested the manual transmissions. In fact, the latest trend seems to be 6,7,8, speed gearing/s to try to even match the 6 speed manual transmission.
You are correct, of course, that cost is a problem ... but since the above is true, you could argue that just about anything that makes a vehicle faster AND more fuel efficient is going to come at a cost.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
So for example in a wider market, the (6 speed) DSG is the sole automatic offering for the VW Jetta TDI (dare I say) 2012 Passat TDI . The 6 speed manual is the STANDARD offering. So to address the cost issue, the DSG is an app $1,100 option. When slush box automatics were offered, the option cost app the same. So to address the next post, it is still not game over for the 6 speed manual. Indeed I think it further solidifies the 6 speed manual transmission.
A small side bar is the DSG has been successfully mated to a diesel engine. Past VW attempts to mate an automatic slush box to a diesel engine have met with at best, mixed reviews.
To me that's not a reasonable expectation. What might be reasonable is for current and next-generation transmissions to cost no more than a traditional torque-converter automatic.
Once that happens with something DSG-like, game over for manuals.
I doubt it; if anything it will be game over for slush-box style automatics.
I'm not sure what's going to happen in the upscale "sport sedan" and "sport coupe" market...we may still see manuals in 3 series Bimmers, the Lexus IS, G35, cars like that.
There comes a point where it just doesn't pay for a company to design an entirely new manual transmission for a car where only a few percent are sold that way.
Not as options necessarily, but if you've been reading recent reviews on the Panamera Hybrid, you'll see the Porsche was forced to use the slushbox rather than the PDK (which is standard in all other Panameras) because the PDK does not cooperate well with a Hybrid drivetrain (yet). Something about the engagement/disengagement being too harsh without a torque converter. So as long as hybrids are in the game, I don't think torque converters will be going away completely.
I do think it odd, however, that Honda has been able to offer hybrids with manual transmissions. Why does that work but not the PDK?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
To many Americans, manual transmissions mean "work" and they mean "cheap"...they CAN mean sporty, but that doesn't seem to compute when people see 4-doors and a large footprint (tireprint?)
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
That is correct - the cost recovery of designing an option for about 10% of the market doesn't make sense.
IMHO, car makers will rely on companies like Getrag, Asin and Jatco to design and manufacture manuals for them based on a standard design.
True, if it were so. The fact of the matter is that the rest of the world uses manuals much more than the U.S. does. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of configurations made & sold elsewhere that would require zero development dollars to sell here. The barrier is the prohibitive cost of qualifying a given car & drivetrain to the EPA's satisfaction. Only high-volume (or perceived so) configurations need apply.
If I lived anywhere except here I'd be driving a 3-series small diesel (2.5 is about right) with a manual transmission.
But, sadly, I don't and therefore, I'm not. Yeah, I'd have to sell the RFTs on eBay & put real tires on, but most of the diesels still have a dipstick.
Imagine.
Just for fun I drove my friend's '10 BMW 328 that has a manual transmission, just to check my own prejudices, and yeah, the car felt way too big to me for a manual transmission. It seemed totally out of whack. What am I going to do? Redline in first, slam it into second and samba around a turn like I do in the MINI? It felt almost....abusive...as if my dance partner's skirts were being lifted up immodestly
When you hustle a big** car around, everybody notices...
** big on the outside, small on the inside
But I do think you reach a point in length and width where, despite the great handling, and stick-ability to the road, that the size just gets in the way. What I mean is that there are physical forces that no amount of engineering can make disappear.
It's hard to explain, but the combo of quick shifting, darting in and out, and slow-in, fast out turns in the twisties...all that seems burdensome in a larger car, even if it's faster than the slower, littler car.
It was so easy to pick a manual over an automatic when you were faced with 90 hp cars available with a 3 sp auto or a 5 sp manual. But now even 4 cyl family cars are pushing 200 hp and have 6 sp autos. The acceleration and MPG gap have narrowed so dramatically on most cars. Maybe manuals will die out. I hate the thought.
Besides, I got Corvette buyers on my side. I think a very large number of them are ordered as automatics.
I drove a C5 to work for a couple of weeks. I found myself starting in 2nd, skipping gears, etc. You can't exactly wind it out much in a 35 mph zone on the way to work.
I special ordered my 2008 Accord EXL navi with the manual. Best manual I've ever driven. Buttery and jewel like at the same time. The car is a bit of a land yacht, but the manual is what makes it livable and involving for me.
Our other car is a Mazda5 sport 5mt. Same thing there. You can toss that little mini-minivan around corners, downshifting and up shifting. Makes it fun.
Plus you get from 0-60 almost a second faster than an auto in each of these cars with a manual compared to an auto.
They get about 1-2 more mpg in real world driving, I think.
They each cost about 1k less than the auto versions to start.
And so far no reliability issues.
I'm reminded of how much an auto costs when you replace it just yesterday. The auto on my sister's 2000 Odyssey went out. Cost to rebuilt: $4000.
Ouch.
That car was 11 years old, but it only had 77k miles on it.
I think the manuals in my two cars will still be going strong at that point. But even if they had to be rebuilt, I don't think it would be that much.
Manuals still rock on large vehicles for me.
ouch. I don't know if you've heard me talk about this before or not, but I leased an '06 EXL 6-speed sedan. OK, I'll give you that the clutch was fine and slotting through the gears was pretty good ... but, man, you'll never hear me talking about that car as being at the top of any list.
I don't mind a big car with a manual ... but a big FWD car with narrow torque band? Ugh. I grew to HATE that car. If you were trying to launch it aggresively, one of two things happened: excessive and violent wheel hop with too many revs or falling flat on its face with too few revs.
That car just about turned me off manual trannies. After living with that for a couple of years, I was convinced I must not actually want a stick for a daily driver. That's when I went to the G35X. Wasn't long before I got bored with that, too. Went through a Benz and a Volvo after that. Then I realized I still wanted a stick ... just not a big heavy FWD stick.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
You must have had the V6.
I have an 06 EX-L w/navi I4 5-speed sedan and I love it. I test drove the automatic and it was a dog compared to the manual.
Of course, you've been through several vehicles since and I've got 94k on mine. I'm cheap so I wonder how many more you'll drive when I finally get rid of this one.
I did test drive the 6 cylinder 6 speed. It was weird, as you say. I couldn't tell if I'd ever get used to it or not.
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It was very odd. Rev hard and then a gentle tap. The transmission actually had hydraulic actuators instead of a normal clutch linkage, so it took about three weeks to get used to. That said, every day was special driving it.
RWD and stick is the way to go. Even my old 4Runner was fine as it had manual. No power, but who needed it - you could flog it and even though it had a miserably small power band, it still drove nicely. In fact, I once got a rental (divot-heads at the dealership damaged it during an oil change and had to fix it). 20 year old 4Runner with mud tires on it. Was twice as easy to steer as a new Cobalt. The Cobalt felt dead and numb and heavy as an ATV stuck in 2 ft of Missouri mud. (Welcome to 4th of July at the relatives - heh)
I got the truck back and my arms were so much happier.