The problem with their strategy is that I end up trying to hold my drink with one hand or hold it between my legs. Either way, my driving is compromised. With a well done cupholder, my driving experience is much safer.
You have to look at it the German way - you don't do it the way you want, you do it the way you are told. Drink small or don't drink at all. Some guy with "Dipl.-Ing. Dr." in front of his name, a beard and a pocket protector will lecture you about it :shades:
Too true about the German engineering approach. We have worked with multiple Siemen's products and often get the chance to provide feedback about the interface or default settings and there are formal mechanisms for reporting issues that arise. The company is very good about providing access to the engineers, but the running joke is that when an issue is raised, the answer will be, "No this is not a problem. It is supposed to do this." No matter how cumbersome or frustrating it might be for the daily operator.
That reminds me of another German product we used - I work in telecom, and we once widely used something from Optel, and I think it is still used now and then. It seemed counter-intuitive , always had lots of weird bugs and what looked like failures - I had a guy in Germany I could call 24/7, the answer would always be "it's supposed to do that" or "the problem is on your network". Sadly, he was often right on the latter :sick: ...then I got to call someone else who often couldn't understand me nor think outside the box.
And to weasel my way back to the thread topic - these are the people who generally prefer to drive a manual, laugh at those who can't drive one, and even differentiate it in licensing exams. So it isn't all bad.
Count transmissions in the parking lot of a tech company some day, paying particular attention at the cars owned by the top techie/architect/designer/nerds if you know who they are. You may quickly see that engineers who design or test uber-complex/uber-critical software products are much more likely to drive manual transmission cars than non-techies..
Those who know how to write&test the software that goes into an automatic/CVT transmission don't actually want such software/transmission in their own cars and tend to prefer MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS more than non-techies.
I would say that's entirely inaccurate. Considering I'm one of those nerds who works for one of those tech companies with the rest of the techie designer nerd engineers you describe. You see, we do not fear complex advanced technologies. Indeed we bask in the fact that we understand the things that you mere mortals do not, and we cherish our high-techieness. :shades:
are often great, so long as they work flawlessly for a very long time and don't totally compromise the maintainability of the system in question.
Sadly, this is never the case, especially with European vehicles. The Asians come closer, but I'll take stone simple most times, given the choice. However, that choice is rarely available.
Well we are fast approaching the point where, when an engine fails on a luxury car that's 5 years old, you just throw the car away...so I'd imagine that soon enough this will be the case with hi-tech mysto-whizzo 8 speed electro-clutcho transmissions as well.
Already we are seeing replacement costs for some transmissions on non-exotic luxury cars pushing $7500.
At today's prices for auto repair, it doesn't take much to effectively total a car.
A 5000.00 car that needs a 7500.00 (!) transmission would fit in that catagory.
A good example are Cadillacs with the Northstar engines. The earlier versions of these were notorious for oil leaks when a seal fails where the engine block mates together. It is a miserable job to fix these and the price tag pushes 5000.00. Many an otherwise nice Cadillac has been totalled when the leak gets so bad it can't be lived with.
The $7000 auto transmission replacement (!!!!!) seems a clear argument for a manual.
Just a guess here, and so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but probably even a 6 speed manual on a, say, 2012 Honda Civic Si, would be about half of that.
And, more importantly, unless you don't know how to shift a manual should last the life of the car.
And auto should too, but I think they wear out more often. A 6-7 speed auto is much more complex than a 6 speed manual.
Well I had to replace the engine in my '92 Sentra SE-R 10 years ago. Cost me $2600 back then for the engine, installation, and the AC changeover to R-134. That was probably more than 1/3 the value of the car at that time. But I've put 70,000 miles on the car and engine since that time, so financially it turned out to be the right decision.
a clutch is, yes, but they also should last indefinitely.
one other thing, ATs now are basically like TVS: not serviceable, so if it breaks, throw it out and get a new one (not like the old days of the garage on the corner bench rebuilding your powerglide!)
But a normal Manual should be fixable, since there usually isn't much to go wrong (a synchro goes bad maybe?)
one other thing, ATs now are basically like TVS: not serviceable, so if it breaks, throw it out and get a new one (not like the old days of the garage on the corner bench rebuilding your powerglide!)
Actually it's more like pull the old one out, order a new one from the Jasper distributor, install in car, send old one to distributor for core credit, Jasper rebuilds and sells it to someone else.
It's cheaper and faster to put in a factory rebuilt/reconditioned unit than it is for a mechanic to do it himself. That goes for both autos and manuals.
bpizzuti, your one datapoint does not make a trend any more than my one datapoint as one driver. you drive automatics, i drive stickshift, yes. but we can't draw conclusions simply by observing our own preferences/choices!
So how about some datapoints from your company parking lot - check the cars by the in-the-trenches engineers/designers as well as the architect types - and tell us what they select - especially the ones with the $/success to get the big bonuses/stock/whatever to select whatever car they want.
at your place, do the top engineers tend drive fat benzes with automatics or BMWs/Vettes/whatever with stickshifts ?
I see mustangs, BMW 5s, BMW 3s, >>50% with stickshift, driven by the engineers. Hot motorcycles too. (they have stickshift too, usually!)
Benzes, usually driven by manager/corporate/business types. (It's very rare to find a stickshift in a USA Benz - very few models offer stickshift). Unusual to find a motorcycle-rider among the corporate types.
Of course, the problem with manuals is also partly because the manufacturers don't offer the vehicles that customers want with manuals.
Can you get a V6 Camry with manual? Nope, only the 4, and only the most basic trim. Can you get a Cruze with manual? Same deal. What about high mpg manuals with diesel like they have in Europe or a manual hybrid? Sorry, you're not worthy of a decent vehicle like the rest of the world gets.
You can't even get a C class with manual any more, at least not in the U.S. If you want manual, you're forced to either have the worst engine and worst trim in a cheap tin can or pay a fortune for something like a Corvette or Porsche.
Based upon statistics, about 30% of the U.S. population would buy manuals if they had a decent choice. But since they do not, millions of people every year are forced to settle with owning an automatic instead. This, of course, holds true with used cars as well. Just go over to CarMax or a similar mega-dealer sometime and ask for a list of their cars with manual. Maybe you'll see ten on their entire lot if you don't count the dozen or so Wranglers in the corner.
"Can you get a V6 Camry with manual? Nope, only the 4, and only the most basic trim. Can you get a Cruze with manual? Same deal."
During the shopping phase for our most recent car (which ended up as a 2012 6-Speed (the kind with three pedals) GTI), we shopped the Chevy Cruze, and while it is true that you cannot opt for the full-tilt LTZ with a manual, for 2012 you can now buy the 2LT with a stick and then option it up with pretty much every (meaningful) option of the LTZ except Automatic Climate Control.
That said, I do find it supremely annoying that the Cruze LTZ, the Focus Titanium, and the SkyActiv-G Mazda3 i GT cannot be had with manual transmissions. It's starting to look like VW and BMW are the only serious players left in the manual transmission world.
BMW? good luck finding any, though they are (in theory) still offered.
I was out shopping today, and of course, got the whole "no one wants a manual so we will offer you dirt" spiel from the trade in appraiser. At one used car place (high end stuff) he said that out of 100 cars, he had no manuals.
did stop at BMW dealer to see one listed on their website (a 2003), but it was gone to the wholesale lot (apparently needed a lot of work). But, happy to show you plenty of ATs!
I also gave my daughter her first seat time. Did laps of a parking lot, getting as high as 2nd gear. She actually did pretty well. Was able to get started with no drama, and into 2nd OK. Only stalled once too.
Best of all, she seemed reasonable comfortable with it, and if I keep the stick, she should be able to deal with it.
still, the biggest hassle? Having to readjust the seat every time we switch drivers. And it takes me a long time to get it dialed in just perfectly. Sounds like another reason though to justify the BMW (memory seats!)
For years, a small but very vocal group pestered Honda to build V-6 Accords with manuals.
So, Honda did! Talk about a DISMAL failure! I remember we got stuck with two of them. One sat on our lot for over a year and by luck, another store somewhere took the other one on a dealer trade.
I don't buy the 30% number. Not even close!
Even manual Civics are so hard to sell that the smaller stores won't order any.
Does Toyota still build 4 cyl Camrys with manuals? If they do, I haven't seen one in many years.
1) Both of my local dealerships have quite a few 3-Series and even a few 5-Series cars on the lot with manual transmissions.
2) I would never buy a car like a BMW off of the lot; their options are just too variable and finding one in the color with the options I want is a pretty difficult thing. I've ordered both of my BMWs and even took delivery of the second one in Munich (which is the plan for the next one as well).
Mostly Hondas and Toyotas, Beemers for some of the directors, quite a few GMs, a scattering of other brands. The engineers/architects all drive slushboxes. except for one network guy that I know of. My company is an IT company, which primarily serves the auto industry.
Interestingly enough one of the VPs tends to drive old Nissans and Infinitis primarily.
Well the reason for that is that most automakers don't want to have to develop an entirely new transmission for a V-6 Toyota, for the .000000001% of Toyota buyers who would want one.
They've already amortized the cost of the 4 cylinder manual transmission.
The lot I park in is reserved for managers, senior technical people, and some secretaries . It has around 150 spaces. There's a wide variety of cars, trucks, and SUVs on that lot, ranging from my '92 Sentra to 500 series Mercedes. I bet there's only a handful (less than 10) of vehicles that are manual transmissions. And pretty much all of these drivers, except for the secretaries, have a technical degree, even if their primary function now is management.
The last model year Camry that had a 6 speed manual was 2011, only on base and SE models.
Manual Camrys, Accords, Corollas, and Civics are very rare. A few times in the past year, I did a search on Edmunds new cars to see how many new manuals were available, and the number of manuals for sale within 500 miles was typically around 2.5% of the total.
Might also be that Subaru owners are, traditionally, starving for every ounce of fuel economy---as Japanese cars go, they are the gas guzzlers. (but maybe not in 2012!)
I've had a couple of 2.5L Subies, both manuals, and my best ever was 28 mpg on flat level Highway 50 with cruise control.
Normally, about 24 mpg was the best I could hope for. With my foot pushed through the firewall on my Mini Cooper I get better than that. Of course the MINI, while having more HP, is only a 1.6L.
Our son really has come to dislike his 2009 Impreza. It burned oil until the engine blew at 32,000 miles. A fluke I know but it has made him distrustful.
And it get's terrible gas mileage for what it is. Is it the boxer design?
I agree, they don't sell. But they would sell more than 2.5% IF they were more available when people were shopping for a new car. Also, if they were on more than base models. But even then, I would guess that only 5% of the people would buy a manual, and that is still too low for the manufacturers to worry about.
After a couple of driving lessons with my daughter in my Accord, I don't think she is really taking to the whole stick thing. She has to coordination to do it, but is not trending toward being a "gearhead", and just does not see the purpose in having more to concentrate on.
I could keep forcing it, but seems counterproductive. Might just be better off leting her drive an AT. makes me sad, but not surprised.
This does mean I need to find an AT now. Will likely get rid of the Accord, and replace it with a comparably priced AT that I can pass along to her a year from now, at which time I will go find a toy for me to drive (likely of course with a stick!)
A co-worker of mine has an 03 Impreza wagon. Bought it new, hasn't had any real problems, has it miled up to about 150K now. Drives 90% highway miles, claims overall mpg is seldom better than 24. AWD and a big coarse engine will do that, I guess. Funny that at a constant 60-65, my big V8 won't do much worse.
Comments
I use only one SAP "tool" at work, which is, as expected, less than intuitive. It also has German-looking compound words like "innerpage".
The human brain can memorize 5-7 options, I think the SAP software designers were sick they day they taught that.
Having said that, some how it all works.
And to weasel my way back to the thread topic - these are the people who generally prefer to drive a manual, laugh at those who can't drive one, and even differentiate it in licensing exams. So it isn't all bad.
Those who know how to write&test the software that goes into an automatic/CVT transmission don't actually want such software/transmission in their own cars and tend to prefer MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS more than non-techies.
catch you later, peoples, I'm Audi/TTFN !
Sadly, this is never the case, especially with European vehicles. The Asians come closer, but I'll take stone simple most times, given the choice. However, that choice is rarely available.
Already we are seeing replacement costs for some transmissions on non-exotic luxury cars pushing $7500.
At today's prices for auto repair, it doesn't take much to effectively total a car.
A 5000.00 car that needs a 7500.00 (!) transmission would fit in that catagory.
A good example are Cadillacs with the Northstar engines. The earlier versions of these were notorious for oil leaks when a seal fails where the engine block mates together. It is a miserable job to fix these and the price tag pushes
5000.00. Many an otherwise nice Cadillac has been totalled when the leak gets so bad it can't be lived with.
'07 Lexus LS460 - $8,500-10,500
'08 BMW 535i - $7500 with turbos
'06 Infiniti M35 - $2000-3000
I suppose you need to add another couple thousand dollars for installation.
Yep, add the labor at 120.00/hr and add the necessary stuff like motor mounts, belts, hoses, spark plugs, coolant etc and you are through the roof!
It sounds like the junkyards will be getting some good "organ donors" that are great cars other than the expensive item that totalled them!
Just a guess here, and so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but probably even a 6 speed manual on a, say, 2012 Honda Civic Si, would be about half of that.
And, more importantly, unless you don't know how to shift a manual should last the life of the car.
And auto should too, but I think they wear out more often. A 6-7 speed auto is much more complex than a 6 speed manual.
That's a rather significant asterisk, isn't it?
Actually, isn't a clutch a wear item in a manual transmission?
one other thing, ATs now are basically like TVS: not serviceable, so if it breaks, throw it out and get a new one (not like the old days of the garage on the corner bench rebuilding your powerglide!)
But a normal Manual should be fixable, since there usually isn't much to go wrong (a synchro goes bad maybe?)
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
A new auto trans is a few thousand. :sick:
Actually it's more like pull the old one out, order a new one from the Jasper distributor, install in car, send old one to distributor for core credit, Jasper rebuilds and sells it to someone else.
It's cheaper and faster to put in a factory rebuilt/reconditioned unit than it is for a mechanic to do it himself. That goes for both autos and manuals.
So how about some datapoints from your company parking lot - check the cars by the in-the-trenches engineers/designers as well as the architect types - and tell us what they select - especially the ones with the $/success to get the big bonuses/stock/whatever to select whatever car they want.
at your place, do the top engineers tend drive fat benzes with automatics or BMWs/Vettes/whatever with stickshifts ?
I see mustangs, BMW 5s, BMW 3s, >>50% with stickshift, driven by the engineers. Hot motorcycles too. (they have stickshift too, usually!)
Benzes, usually driven by manager/corporate/business types. (It's very rare to find a stickshift in a USA Benz - very few models offer stickshift). Unusual to find a motorcycle-rider among the corporate types.
Can you get a V6 Camry with manual? Nope, only the 4, and only the most basic trim. Can you get a Cruze with manual? Same deal. What about high mpg manuals with diesel like they have in Europe or a manual hybrid? Sorry, you're not worthy of a decent vehicle like the rest of the world gets.
You can't even get a C class with manual any more, at least not in the U.S. If you want manual, you're forced to either have the worst engine and worst trim in a cheap tin can or pay a fortune for something like a Corvette or Porsche.
Based upon statistics, about 30% of the U.S. population would buy manuals if they had a decent choice. But since they do not, millions of people every year are forced to settle with owning an automatic instead. This, of course, holds true with used cars as well. Just go over to CarMax or a similar mega-dealer sometime and ask for a list of their cars with manual. Maybe you'll see ten on their entire lot if you don't count the dozen or so Wranglers in the corner.
During the shopping phase for our most recent car (which ended up as a 2012 6-Speed (the kind with three pedals) GTI), we shopped the Chevy Cruze, and while it is true that you cannot opt for the full-tilt LTZ with a manual, for 2012 you can now buy the 2LT with a stick and then option it up with pretty much every (meaningful) option of the LTZ except Automatic Climate Control.
That said, I do find it supremely annoying that the Cruze LTZ, the Focus Titanium, and the SkyActiv-G Mazda3 i GT cannot be had with manual transmissions. It's starting to look like VW and BMW are the only serious players left in the manual transmission world.
I was out shopping today, and of course, got the whole "no one wants a manual so we will offer you dirt" spiel from the trade in appraiser. At one used car place (high end stuff) he said that out of 100 cars, he had no manuals.
did stop at BMW dealer to see one listed on their website (a 2003), but it was gone to the wholesale lot (apparently needed a lot of work). But, happy to show you plenty of ATs!
I also gave my daughter her first seat time. Did laps of a parking lot, getting as high as 2nd gear. She actually did pretty well. Was able to get started with no drama, and into 2nd OK. Only stalled once too.
Best of all, she seemed reasonable comfortable with it, and if I keep the stick, she should be able to deal with it.
still, the biggest hassle? Having to readjust the seat every time we switch drivers. And it takes me a long time to get it dialed in just perfectly. Sounds like another reason though to justify the BMW (memory seats!)
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
So, Honda did! Talk about a DISMAL failure! I remember we got stuck with two of them. One sat on our lot for over a year and by luck, another store somewhere took the other one on a dealer trade.
I don't buy the 30% number. Not even close!
Even manual Civics are so hard to sell that the smaller stores won't order any.
Does Toyota still build 4 cyl Camrys with manuals? If they do, I haven't seen one in many years.
1) Both of my local dealerships have quite a few 3-Series and even a few 5-Series cars on the lot with manual transmissions.
2) I would never buy a car like a BMW off of the lot; their options are just too variable and finding one in the color with the options I want is a pretty difficult thing. I've ordered both of my BMWs and even took delivery of the second one in Munich (which is the plan for the next one as well).
Interestingly enough one of the VPs tends to drive old Nissans and Infinitis primarily.
They've already amortized the cost of the 4 cylinder manual transmission.
Manual Camrys, Accords, Corollas, and Civics are very rare. A few times in the past year, I did a search on Edmunds new cars to see how many new manuals were available, and the number of manuals for sale within 500 miles was typically around 2.5% of the total.
For some reason, Subaru seems to make and sell more of them than Honda does.
Smarter, better informed drivers than Honda owners, of course. :P
Wish mine was a stick. :sick:
I bet I could improve my lifetime of 23.31 with a manual, especially on the local runs.
Normally, about 24 mpg was the best I could hope for. With my foot pushed through the firewall on my Mini Cooper I get better than that. Of course the MINI, while having more HP, is only a 1.6L.
And it get's terrible gas mileage for what it is. Is it the boxer design?
The new Impreza went to a 2l engine, timing chain, new design, much better mpg.
Subaru has 2 models that come ONLY with a stick - WRX and Legacy GT. Definitely the odd man out.
I could keep forcing it, but seems counterproductive. Might just be better off leting her drive an AT. makes me sad, but not surprised.
This does mean I need to find an AT now. Will likely get rid of the Accord, and replace it with a comparably priced AT that I can pass along to her a year from now, at which time I will go find a toy for me to drive (likely of course with a stick!)
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.