The Future Of The Manual Transmission

volkov

Lost their business due to unsubstantiated claims and a 60 minutes treatment worthy of the National Enquirer. 20 years later Audi sales were not back to their absolute numbers. Now, they did themselves no favours with substandard quality, and reliability, but that still hasn't caught VW, BMW or MB.

ateixeira

The American public is gullible, and when it's an import brand and the D3 will benefit from the media attention, no one sticks their neck out to defend them.

ruking1

I am actually glad you gave a heads up on the CVT, Audi (A-4) Honda. I have long thought which is starting to be confirmed by anecdotal evidence; that every time they (= auto oem's) do an" improvement", it is almost like CODE for a real disaster in the making. (aka higher costs, almost unrepairable and a PITA while you live with it)

When I bought a 04 Civic (new) for commuting, research indicated one of the weak points might be the A/T. (in comparison to the M/T). Now "slush box" automatic transmissions have been made by both Audi AND Honda for multiple decades. But the reason for the buy was the cheaper priced car that had an A/T transmission. (the rational being, the cheaper price would cover the possible need for a new transmission). So far after 133,000 miles, it runs like the proverbial top with a HIGHLY recommended (aka MANDATORY) 120,000 miles transmission fluid change and adjust, albeit higher in maintenance costs than a VW TDI 5 speed manual transmission. Research has indicated that IF the Civic A/T IS going to fail, the majority will do so app 250,000 miles. Indications are that a R/R would be a minimum of $2,500. Anyone want to swag what repair costs will be for a CVT, especially when aftermarket parts and knowledge is far and few in-between? Mpg continues @ 38-42.

Anecdotally, I am on pace for a 400,000+ miles transmission life for the VW TDI 5 speed transmission . @ 175,000 miles, I have yet to change the "lifetime" 5 speed manual transmission fluid. I will change it probably @ 200,000 to 250,000 miles, for grins. But there are no correlated studies done that indicate transmission oil change affects/effects the transmission's life either way. Indications are that a manual transmission R/R would be a minimum of $600.00 including parts @300-350 (new, upgraded clutch, flywheel, bearings.). This contrast and comparison might be one reason why they want to get rid of the M/T. Mpg continues @ a range of 48-52 in that same rolling parking lot that is the highway 101 commute (yes during the dreaded commute time). If I keep it under 95 mph more like 48-50, all conditions long.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm so glad I bought a 6-speed manual MINI. The car has so many other known factory defects that i couldn't imagine having to cope with a bad MINI CVT as well. I'm also glad I bought the car used. I would not have been a happy camper to pay $28,000 for a car that needs correction for deformed shock towers, defective thermostat housings, defective flywheels and more interior trim pieces falling off than on a 20 year old Hyundai. Every repair penny I ever spent on this car was to correct known factory defects, not to replace anything naturally worn out.

I love the car but, like with the Audi, I am rather surprised at the car's inability to stay fixed, given the relatively low mileage.

Last thing I have to do is fix the defective flywheel -- no hurry--the only consequences is a screeching noise at clutch takeup--it could run like that for 20 years. But ouch! ---12 hours labor to R&R a clutch?

shipo

Yikes! Twelve hours; that sucker must really be shoehorned in there.

ruking1

I am sure by now there are some MINI oem to aftermarket upgrades?

So for example, you don't want to go to the trouble and expense and shortened useful life to change out to a NON upgraded clutch, only to have the same symptoms just about the same mileage you had your old one at.

It is almost TMI to keep up with the long lists, since new 2003 gen, MkIV changes, additions, deletions, etc. I know for example, oem comes with a dual mass clutch. It is considered "problematic" even with a 400,000 miles + life expectancy !! ??? Most upgrade to an oem V6 Sach's (single mass) clutch, in that one can significantly boost hp and more importantly torque. (from 155# ft-177# ft to more like 285 to 300 # ft.) Needless to say with that mode and a computer tune with new injectors, chip, etc it is a NEW car. You could not approach that with an slush box automatic, let alone a CVT for anywhere near the M/T costs.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd love to change to a single flywheel, but the only aftermarket ones I can find are lightened flywheels, which you definitely do NOT want in a street car.

ruking1

Yes, I do know exactly what you mean. The only thing that occurred to me was check out the part numbers for a Mini diesel clutch, and probably its (technical) adaptabllity to the gasser motor. The rational I know will be obvious to you.

For the wider audience, the diesel motor tends to make more torque than a like gasser motor, so normally the diesel clutch is "beefier" (thats a technical term :P )

Off topic, but the V6 gasser Sachs (single mass, upgraded) clutch is a seamless conversion to the VW Mk IV TDI motor. Almost needless to say this clutch is beefier.

Mr_Shiftright

That's an interesting idea. You know how it is thoug--with 12 hours labor involved, you don't want to have to do this job TWICE! :surprise:

GEEZ replacing the sunroof was hard enough--to get the headliner out you have to remove the front seats!!!

(actually we worked around this by working inside the hole of the headliner, and wearing it around our waist while inside the car. Fun, real fun.

If your MINI sunroof breaks, plan on spending $2800. (well, in this case insurance took care of it).

Can you just buy the replacement glass? NOOOOOOO you can't. You buy the whole thing!

ruking1

WOW that is almost breathtaking. I take it you do not now park under too many trees!! Hard to do where you live.

Mr_Shiftright

Sometimes I think about just buying some old piece of crap car but that sounds too depressing--it's like wearing clothes with holes in them.

kyfdx

Okay... one more reason to get my MINI w/o sunroof... :surprise:

isellhondas

We used to have a lot of crows around our dealership and I've watched them drop rocks from a high altitude thinking they were nuts they could break.

While I was there we did suffer a couple of broken sunroofs but we never figured how they got broken. It was easy to blame this on the crows.

And some people wonder why I hate crows!

xwesx

Guilty as charged.

Mr_Shiftright

sometimes I think about driving a nice old car as my primary driver---but it'd probably end up costing as much as the one I have now. But at least I could fix more things. I mean, how simple is a '65 Mustang? The engine is about as complex as a wood stove.

xwesx

I like having and driving old cars, but honestly, I'm a bit paranoid about crashes. The more time that goes by, the more paranoid I become simply because I see all the stupid things drivers do out there, and they just keep getting worse as more drivers allow themselves to be distracted.

Yes, I would hate to have my '69 C20 damaged in a collision, but even more than that is the injury I would surely sustain in that situation. So, combine that with the amount of fuel those old things suck down, and I'm happy to just use it every once in a while.

Working on them is great. Not only are things simple, but there is also room to access nearly every part or piece on the vehicle.

I think my Escort, at nearly 14 years old and over 150,000 miles, qualifies as an "old car" by daily driver standards. Of course, I get all the little quirks and qualms of that status, too. :P

qbrozen

I've had the exact same thoughts. In reality, though, I know it wouldn't last long. Not many were very comfortable. Did any manufacturer have any kind of contoured seat in the '60s?

Oldest I tried as my daily was that '92 190E I had not long ago. It usually ran fine, but I certainly wasn't comfortable in it. I think that lasted all of 3 months?

isellhondas

I'm with you on the crash fears. We never used to worry a bit about having accidents. I guess we were fearless.

Awhile back, someone posted a video of a head on crash between a 1959 Chevy and a late model Malibu. THAT really got my attention!

The driver of the 59 Chevy would have been killed and the people in the Malibu would have survived with minor injuries if any.

I wish I could post that video.

ruking1

I think the statistical part might belie your fears. First of all, we are at a period of THE SAFEST periods of accident/fatalities/injuries in the history of NHTSA record keeping (aka, since 1949). Transportation Sec LaHood Now, this is not to say that earlier model cars are NOT (currently) involved in both accidents/injuries/ fatalities. I am sure if you query the system, the per capita rate of accidents/fatalities/injuries are almost totally in favor of late model cars. NHTSA (the very cars that are THE safest.

So more on topic it would be interesting to see if (per capita) that manual transmission cars are involved in less/more/par accidents, injuries, fatalities. Current estimates of manual transmission cars/trucks are @ 20% of the passenger vehicle population.

Mr_Shiftright

I think if you tried to analyze statistics on crashes involving manual trans cars, you'd end up with the puzzle of trying to figure out if you are looking at Causation or merely Correlation.

If I buy an old truck (which I'm seriously contemplating) I'm going to install lap and shoulder belts and I don't give a damn if I have to drill right through the side of the cab to do it.

ruking1

I do NOT think causation would JUMP out. It would likely be more correlation. Oh for sure, if I am not mistaken cars on the market without seat belts are NOT required to HAVE seat belts for modern day operations. So for example, a 1960's Pontiac with no oem seat belts is given the 2011/2012 dispensation to have no requirement to install or have installed self belts.

This is purely anecdotal, but when I operate manual transmission cars, I notice that A/T equipped cars tend to tail gate me more (stop lights), if it is not in their consciousness that I am operating a M/T car. I usually make no effort to mimic a manic A/T operator with the M/T. In contrast while operating a Corvette Z06 with 6 speed transmission, I am almost NEVER tailgated. :surprise: Go figure ??!!

Mr_Shiftright

It is interesting though that no points are deducted in classic show competitions for cars that have seatbelts installed, even if they didn't come with them.

Classic car owners traditionally don't have anything even *near* the accident rate of "normal" drivers, but then, the vast majority of them do not use these cars as everyday drivers.

I'd say a manual transmission is 'safer' but not because it is a manual transmission, but rather because it requires more driver attention. The less spaced-out you are, the less chance of accident.

So it is, IMO, a correlation, not a causation, were it shown that manual transmission cars have fewer accidents (I have no idea if that's even true).

I've been accident free, but maybe it's because of the smaller size of my cars (as a rule)? Or was it my driver training on the track? Or am I merely lucky?

Who knows? :confuse:

shipo

Splitting hairs here...

I thought Pontiac (as well as pretty much all other manufacturers) adopted factory belts in the early 1960s. I know that my brother's 1963 Dodge and my 1966 Plymouth both had belts from the factory; one of my friends had a 1964 Pontiac and it had factory belts as well.

ruking1

Well no. I am sure there was a date (regulatory) certain. What I was thinking about was a 1960 Pontiac, which actually oem'ed sans self belts.

isellhondas

In 1956,Ford learned that safety didn't sell. They were installing seat belts, padded dashes, recessed steering wheels and other things that year that, for the most part, the public didn't care about.

Of course, all of these feelings changed.

In the "old days" it didn't take much of an accident to kill or badly injure people.

A few years ago, a couple in their 70's were returning from a local car show in their restored Model A when a car turned left in front of them. Both were killed in what was described as a fairly low speed accident.

I don't think I could drive or ride as a passenger in a car without belts.

ruking1

I use mine 99.999999 % of the time. If I said 100% and someone took a U tube of the ONE time I didn't use it, I could probably no longer run for President of the United States. :shades: or local dog catcher. Of course there are specific percentage cases (I have seen absolutely irrefutable documented proof) where NOT wearing seat belts was responsible for a possible saved life and certainly less to NO injuries.

Another truth is in almost all my miles of driving I have NEVER needed the seat belts that I have worn 99.999% of the time.

oldfarmer50

"...I think about just buying some old piece of crap car..."

Don't knock it until you try it. It's very liberating to drive a car that makes you feel good just because it got you home.

qbrozen

Could follow andres method and have a small fleet of old cars so you don't get tired of one so quick and so you have backups.

xwesx

Hahahahah! Well put! :shades:

srs_49

Or, just say that you "can't recall" the last time you didn't use seat belts :P .

shipo

I didn't use my seatbelt this morning when I drove up from our garage to the mailbox to mail back the NetFlix DVD. That said, as soon as I got back into the car and headed off to work, "Click", on went the seatbelt.

kyfdx

New Hampshire man, missing for three days, found dead in car at bottom of ravine on his own property. Authorities assume that he ran off his driveway, when hot coffee spilled on to his lap. Sheriff attributes massive head injury to not wearing his seatbelt.

:shades:

shipo

Could never happen to me. Why? I hate coffee and only drink green tea (a habit picked up while working in Taiwan). :P

stickguy

the habit is so ingrained in me I put the seatbelt on if I am just backing the car out of the garage to put it in the driveway to wash it.

shipo

I'm not far from that; it was difficult to tell myself this morning that I didn't need my seatbelt for the segment of my trip between the garage and the mailbox.

isellhondas

I do the same thing with my seatbelt.

Awhile back, I was a passenger in a 1964 Malibu that didn't have seatbelts as we raced through some busy intersections and yellow lights I had the most uneasy feeling. I couldn't wait to get out of that car!

bpizzuti

If the coffee container did not contain a warning that the contents might be hot and there wasn't a proper impenetrable force-field in front of the ravine I'd say he's got excellent grounds to sue himself. And he might even win. :shades:

shipo

Green Tea is brewed at 180°F (unlike coffee which is brewed at the boiling point), and so if I was to sue myself I probably wouldn't win as I didn't make the drink hot enough to cause any really bad damage. :P

stever

Heh, 180°F was the temp that the McDonald's coffee was served at. Causes 3rd degree burns in 15 seconds. Wiki says that there 700 reports of people burned by McDonald's coffee back in the day. If not wearing seat belts doesn't get you, the hot drinks will. :sick:

shipo

Not too much of a problem. Why?

Well, I fugure that since the water goes in at one-eighty, sits in an initially cold cast-iron steeping pot for five minutes, and then gets transferred to whatever I'm going to be dispensing it from, by the time I'm actually in the car and ready to roll the temperature is closer to one-forty.

Of course all this presupposes that I even bother drinking anything in my car; all of our cars have manual transmissions and worthless cup holders, so when I'm behind the wheel I spend my time doing "Job 1" (aka, drive the freakin' car).

isellhondas

I kind of feel like the Germans who for years refused to put cup holders in Mercedes cars.

They thought the Americans were nuts to be drinking coffee in their cars.

The told a board meeting of American Dealers to tell their customers to DRIVE and if they want coffee to pull over and go to a coffee shop.

It was only when they realized they were losing sales that they backed down and started installing cupholders.

I don't use mine either for that reason.

kyfdx

.... authorities now speculate that said New Hampshire man died of exposure. "If only he had used his heated seats", said Sheriff Buford Pusser...

stever

My mom met Buford Pusser. :-)

Let's see, isn't the German approach to cupholders for the US market to squeeze them in somewhere dumb, right where the coffee or lukewarm tea will splash into the pricey electronics and short 'em out. Isn't that an issue with some Audis and their MMI system? Oh yeah, the Q7.

Even my laptop has a keyboard drain for when I spill my cuppa.

isellhondas

A German car doesn't need coffee or lukewarm tea splased in order to short out the electronics.

They will short themselves out anyway!

stever

Yeah, but at least they aren't dropping manual transmissions in the US as fast as you know who. :-).

fintail

The German cupholder strategy is to make it inconvenient so people will pay attention to driving. MB didn't even get cupholders until the 90s, and even the modern ones usually seem so strange and delicate that you don't want to use them.

ateixeira

I tend to use the space for my smart phone, wallet, coin holder, etc. So they can be useful even for non-drinkers like me.

I try to avoid drinking because that means you have to make more stops, and I do a lot of long distance road tripping.

fintail

I never drink in my car, too much risk for mess. If I need some refreshment, I stop and get out of the car. It's nice to take a break.

My E55 has a weird cupholder that retracts from the front of the center armrest area - spring loaded and extends like a robot arm. Kids are impressed by it, but it feels like it can't hold more than a can of pop. I have never used it. And of course, the fintail laughs at the idea of a cupholder and then asks why you think it is so easy to drive :shades:

isellhondas

Car manufactures tend to build what sells and they discontinue things that don't sell.

Manuals used to sit and sit on our lot and every year we sold fewer and fewer of them to the point a lot of the smaller stores wouldn't even order any.

So those stores would call us...." Say, I see you have a manual EX Civic coupe in red...can we have it"?

A nano second passes......

" Why SURE you can old buddy!...do you have an automatic to trade?"

ateixeira

I half expected you to say the fintail had a robot arm that reached out ... and slapped you in the face! LOL