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And that's the theory why your brake shop likes to replace both pads and rotors instead of turning the rotors, because a turned rotor will still have grooves that don't mate to the new pads very well and they'll be noisy. Which would explain my Subaru manual's recommendation.
The shop figures customers will be happier paying more up front for non-squealing brakes and it's cheaper than having customers come back and tie up the technician for ten minutes double-checking the work done.
I get into all sorts of fun trouble making assumptions like this.
Steve, Host
Just put 'em in and drive, that's my two cents.
ps I dont know anything about cars, so installing might be a problem
Rules for working underneath:
Never support the car on hydraulic pressure alone (leaving the jack locked to support the car
Use 4 sturdy GOOD QUALITY jackstands. Do not trust your life to $4.99 jackstands from Kragen made of thin stamped steel. RENT good ones if you have to.
Let someone know where you are and what you are doing
Wear eye protection
RE: CAMS---yeah, aggressive cams and a good intake header can make a big difference, but you need to do homework if you are going to modify the engine internally. You need to find PROVEN combinations of mods that work for your engine, not a piece here and a piece there that have never met before.
What I'm driving at is that sometimes you can bolt on a certain header or muffler or air filter and it doesn't work real well---you can actually spend money and LOSE power!
As for what I meant by "combinations", I meant that if you are going to do exhaust work you should also consider some kind of intake work, like a short ram or even a custom intake manifold, as well as exhaust headers and cat-back.
it's possible that you'll be able to talk to someone who's fitted some or all of these things and can tell you the pros and cons of each installation and the results.
You'll be a lot happier if you do some homework on this, like you are doing here.
All cosmetic,, we really like the car
How difficult is it to do this swap? Does the entire front door panel have to be removed to replace those speakers? Or is it the case where the grills will come right off?
How about the rear deck speakers? If it's a real pain to replace the front ones, especially since I'm not a pro installer, I may just do the rear ones.
Advice please!!
I've looked at Crutchfield, Circuit City, etc., and it appears that I'll need to spend $150 for each pair to get decent replacements. I wish Honda offered designer factory systems, like JBL, Bose, etc., like other manufacturers do.
I'm afraid you are on the wrong board. This is "Speed Shop". Let me re-direct you. I think you should be asking this question here:
Honda Accord Owners: Accessories
MrShiftright
Co-Host
Thanks in advance!
As for the chips, I think that depends a LOT on:
1. What they are claiming AND guaranteeing to you (if your dyno doesn't show the HP they claim, can you get a refund?)
2. If they explain the engineering principles to you---what are the manipulating in your system to get the power they claim? Are they screwing around with timing? How much? Will you lose fuel economy? How much?
3. I think your intake/exhaust headers is a good idea because you understand that you are dealing with an inter-related system....no sense improving the front end if you aren't improving the back end.
In the case say of cutting your springs or changing them out to lower the car, a good case can be made that this will destroy your OEM shocks, so I'd be on the dealer's side about that. But claiming that a cat-back exhaust system damaged an engine, that's pretty hard to believe and I don't think it would hold up to legal scrutiny.
Here's a whole thingie on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm
Sometimes a dealership will tell you things that are true, and sometimes they really don't know the law themselves...so don't presume they are right when they deny you warranty.
I will checkout the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act and hopefully it will shed some light to the grey areas.
BTW its a 01 accord ex-l, only 4 cyl...I installed an AEM CAI, will that reduce fuel efficiency in everyday stop and go traffic? and is there much more of an HP increase, or should I revert to the OEM airbox? ...I DO want to change out headers, what5s a good brand that someone has had success with?
-Tim
My advice is specific to Performance Friction pads and is consistant with the manufacturer's instructions. The reason I know it is that I worked in the Research and Development department of a disc brake pad manufacturer. It is based on a lot of testing and real world research for these pads. Specifically, we had a machine with a complete brake set up (rotor, pads, caliper, etc.) hooked up to a mass of spinning weights (the weight is calculated and set based on the weight of the car). We could measure the pad and rotor temperature, brake line pressure, and the speed of rotation of the mass. Since the mass was known, we could calculate the coeficient of friction. We consistantly found that pads performed better after "bedding" them in. By better, I mean that the performance was more linear, they lasted longer (we followed up tests with wear tests that lasted days and included regular, precise measurements of the pad thickness), and had more linear performance - they "felt" better too.
We then validated this testing with on vehicle testing. For vehicle tests, we would put pressure transducers on the brake lines and the brake peddal so we would know the exact amount of fource. We also had a "fifth wheel" to measure speed and distance of the stops.
And no, you don't have to do this, however we were talking about how to get the best braking performance and for these pads, bedding them yeilds the best performance.
There was some discussion as to why this is the case (see below). It is not just because (as one person speculated) that it matches the groves in the rotor. We found these results to be true even if you had a brand new rotor. We were never 100% sure as to why (they may have worked out exactly why since I left the company). And if I did know, I would not tell you as it might be a trade secret. I can tell you this: stopping five to eight times hard gets the brake pad surface temperature way up there - 500° to 700°. I believe this has something to do with it.
This is one of the reasons it is very important to change your brake fluid every few years. Brake fluid has a high boiling point, but, it absorbs water from the air over time and the boiling point drops a lot. If you get the brakes hot on a car and the fluid is old, you may cause the fluid to boil and become vapor. This means that you won't be able to stop. The majority of people who own cars don't do their own work. And many of those that do, don't ever change their brake fluid completely. So it is safe to assume that most of the cars on the road have 'old' brake fluid in them. I believe that many brake pads beside performance friction pads, would work better if they were bedded. However, the manufacturer alters the pad compound so it the pads will work better right out of the box so you don't have to bed them. This, however has the effect of reducing the brake pad life and performance. But it avoids any potential liability from heating the brakes up on purpose and boiling the fluid - and the pads will work, will be safe, and the majority of people simply don't care. Note that the back of the pad, and the piston, are lower in temperature. You have to REALLY get the brakes hot to get the entire pad, caliper, and piston that hot. At some point, some auto manufacturers experimented with phenolic (sp?) pistons - pistons not made of metal so they would not transfer heat to the brake fluid as well.
BUT - this is a performance discussion. I firmly believe that if you are going to take steps to make your car faster, you should also take steps to make sure you can control the speed safely. Good brakes and tires are part of that. So is making sure your brake fluid is not old.
Side note: High performance brake fluid is worth the extra money. Make sure you buy it from somewhere that sells a lot of it as we also had tested the boiling points of 'old' vs. 'fresh' brake fluid from a sealed container and found that fluid that had been on the shelf for a year or two did not perform as well.
As to exactly why bedding works - well I have an idea. But out of respect to my old employeer, I am not going to say because it may be a trade secret. I do know that we tested it both ways and it made a big difference with this specific brand of pads - Performance Friction. I also know that I have never found any other pad that work as well, last as long, and are easier on rotors.
Thank you for that comprehensive discussion. It's very helpful.
I guess that I have only two comments to add.
- If bedding brakes as you've described, do it only on a "dry" day. Such high temperatures could conceivably cause rotor warping in the presence of water.
- I concur that most vehicle owners have no clue about the need to change brake fluid on the vehicle manufacturer's schedule. It should be noted that if an owner uses some fluid from a new container, and places it back on the garage shelf for a year or two, moisture (in the form of humid air) may have entered the container and contaminated the fluid. Thus the recommendation to use only sealed brake fluid.
-Tim
I want to increase low to mid response with budget modifications. If there are other mods than TBS please suggest.
Thanks
I have a 2000 Honda Accord LX with 4 cylinder. I bought 17" black rims about three months ago. The problem that I started having is with the brakes. When I went to get the rotors turned, they told me that accords weren't designed to handle a 17" rims. The mechanic told me that the rotors will contine to warp because of a lower tolerance due to having a larger rim.
I guess my next step is to go and get a 16" rim. Hopefully this helps.
Sam
The mechanic's advice was opinion at best and is the stuff of old wives' (mechanics') tales, since what affect brake performance and longevity with regard to rolling stock are 1) total wheel & tire weight, and 2) wheel offset or wheel relationship with the hub.
Meaning, you could step down to a 16 incher and still have brake problems if the two factors are not satisfied.
The 98-02 Accord has an original wheel & tire weight between 30 to 40 lbs each and a wheel offset of +55 mm.
You could get a 17 inch or larger set up and if it meets or betters those 2 parameters (lighter than 30 lbs and betweem +48 to +55 mm), you'd be equal or better than the factory set up, brake- and handling-wise.
**where can I go about finding a good grill kit?
Tim
You can do a search by make and model
Thanks,
Mike
you have to burn them in. (Or Bedding as someone mentioned)
This is normal practice that all technicians do once the job is completed before
the customer gets there car back.
J
Thanks,
Mike
Will putting larger injectors on a motor increase power? To be honest I am not 100% confident that I know the ins and outs of injectors.... Hence my question.
Any thoughts?
Wish I could offer 1st hand advice on HP-increase alternatives; best I've read is that a CAI/header combo makes about 5% more HP. Lighter wheels and tires help too. If those upgrades amount to $3 to $4k, trading up to a pre-owned V6 probably makes economic sense.
Is the 215 45 ZR17 a good enough replacement for the stock tire? I bought my Accord (4 cyl) two months ago, brand new, and I thought I'd go for some minor mods.
After reading up on a few posts, I'm worried that the tire size I chose isn't ideal. What is the best way to find out the exact circumference of the tire? And how far off is the 215 45 ZR17 from the ideal size. From the look of things, the tires don't look much larger than the original...but I'm not sure, and am sort of worried.
What's the recommended size tire for a 17-inch rim? Wouldn't mind going in again, and swapping these with the ideal size.
Thanks
Here's how I make sense of alternative sizes:
1) Baseline reference is factory size 205/60/16. 811 tire rev/mile. Speedometer at 70mph is actually 70mph. Odometer display of 100k miles is actually 100k miles. 22 mpg is actually 22 mpg
2) Alternative size 215/45/17. 847 tire rev/mile. Speedometer 70mph is actually 69.7 mph. Odometer display of 100k miles is actually 95.7k miles. 22 mpg decreases to 21.2 mpg
3) Alternative size 235/45/17. 808 tire rev/mile. Speedometer at 70mph is actually 70.3mph. Odometer display of 100k miles is actually 100.4k miles. 22 mpg is actually 22.1 mpg
4) Alternative size 215/50/17. 815 tire rev/mile. Speedometer 70mph is actually
69.6 mph. Odometer's 100k miles is actually 99.5k miles. 22 mpg is actually 21.9 mpg
Recommendation: 3) or 4) are ok, except that 235/45/17 will be more taxing on your suspension parts being a wider tire.
Ref: Tirerack.com specs