Tundra vs the Big 3 Continued III

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Comments

  • ryanbabryanbab Member Posts: 7,240
    Saved my truck and me about a month ago. Thank god i had em. Great control with them they did their job and thats all i could have asked for
  • swobigswobig Member Posts: 634
    lets talk about fender flares instead...
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    Anybody seen the 2001 Limited? They have color keyed bumpers and grill and I can't decide if I like that. Call me old fashioned but I kind of like chrome.
  • ratboy3ratboy3 Member Posts: 324
    fender flares make my truck look like it is toed in.. good idea to get wider tires? (for looks) Kind of weary about it what with vibration issues
  • timothyadavistimothyadavis Member Posts: 322
    Whoa, pardner! Slow down too. Just like I asked youbetcha to do, please take a deep breath and relax. Road rage is bad enough. We don't need to get into posting rage too! Come on, let's stop the name calling and personal put downs.

    I believe the subject is Toyota, GMC/Chevy, Dodge and Ford pickups, right? In even the midrange scheme of things (not even considering grand schemes!) this isn't much more important than what we each will decide to eat for dinner tonight, so let's try to regain a little perspective, OK?
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    ....needs to switch to decaf.
  • bcobco Member Posts: 756
    any response to #418? surely the salesman in you is itching to come out...
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    You understand we're talking about after the tow vehicle releases its brakes. You're saying after the tow vehicle releases its brakes and the trailer wheels are locked or not that the coupler won't disengage? Unless going down hill I'll disagree.
  • ryanbabryanbab Member Posts: 7,240
    Lets not talk about fender flares and say we did
  • jcmdiejcmdie Member Posts: 594
    Check out the temper. I believe f150rules is dbhull/budlitedude.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    sorry Mod, I got lost in the conversation...
  • bigsnagbigsnag Member Posts: 394
    Yes, we all know that once the tires break loose on the trailer they actually don't slow down the trailer as fast (it's the same basic principle as when launching at the track). BUT, this is a huge but, as soon as you let off the brakes on the tow vehicle, the tow vehicle isn't being slowed down at all so the locked up wheels on the trailer will definitely be trying to slow it down at a higher rate than the tow vehicle, hence pulling back on the tow vehicle, ergo dis-engaging the trailer brakes. If you can't understand that, you can't understand the principle of surge brakes and probably should not be towing anything!
  • z71billz71bill Member Posts: 1,986
    It must not be that big of a problem - I have never seen it happen. Not saying it couldn't, but must be as rare as a Tundra pulling a trailer.
  • bigsnagbigsnag Member Posts: 394
    ....ha ha ha!! That's got to be one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    See posts #435 and #436.
  • f150rulesf150rules Member Posts: 195
    Oh brother. Not you too. Another bamatundra sibling.
  • mgdvhmanmgdvhman Member Posts: 4,157
    z....yawn..

    You guys done yet??

    - Tim
  • rwellbaum2rwellbaum2 Member Posts: 1,006
    Had a storm system move into the area. The resulting tempature drop and atmospheric pressure change lowered my tire pressure from 32psi to 28psi. Now I can't get the slight shimmy to come back at any speed. When it was present it made the steering wheel rotate back and forth about 1/16 of an inch. I understand that Ford recommends 26psi in the front also. At least that's what a ford executive was saying in response to a question about the ill-fated firestones. How about chevy recommendations for their trucks? The vibration diagnostic chart someone posted on the Silverado vib topic lists Tire pressure (recommended) as the first thing to check. I also found lots of small rocks imbeded in the soft material of the plug I used to repair the tire with.
  • ryanbabryanbab Member Posts: 7,240
    My Z71 has 35 PSI front and rear on the door
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    Rwell
    Ford reccommends 26 psi on the front tires of a truck?

    that seems way too low for the weight of a truck.

    looks like that is the main reason for the Firestone blow outs--Ford specified to lower pressures from 35 to 32 (to reduce rollover), causing tires to overheat.
  • ratboy3ratboy3 Member Posts: 324
    They mentioned that on MSNBC last night. They were talking about the Firestone issue.
  • mgdvhmanmgdvhman Member Posts: 4,157
    32-26...

    - tIM
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    I disagree with bigsnag on that one. Without visual aids, I don't think I can really demonstrate this but I will give it one last try before giving up.

    If you slam the brakes on your truck, the trailer presses very quickly and hard against the coupler. The coupler has a heavy spring in it and when compressed, applies the brakes on the trailer. If this happens suddenly enough and if the road is wet, you can lock up the trailer's brakes. When the brakes are locked, stopping power is reduced since you are only relying on the friction of the tires rather than a combination of tires and brake discs and pads. Sine the trailer brakes are not functioning as efficiently as the trucks brakes, the trailer is pushing against the truck. If you only let up on the brakes on the truck, it is still being pushed by the trailer but not as hard.

    Here is where things get questionable and much depends on the weight of the trailer, the conditions of the tires, efficiency of the brakes, the condition of the spring in the coupler and road conditions. You MIGHT get lucky and the truck will be pushed forward faster than the trailer is trying to push it (example: going up hill or you have a very strong spring in the coupler). More than likely, this isn't going to happen. If you pump the brake at this point, you may be able to get the brakes unlocked. Several hits on the brake pedal may end up slowing the forward momentum of the trailer so it is no longer pushing as hard against the coupler. The other method is to hit the gas. This will always work.

    I find it funny that we have gone onto this tangent. The only reason we are here is that I pointed out that ABS is not always an advantage which is true as the past 50 or so posts have demonstrated. I for one, prefer them even with this limitation. If I had it my way, all Tundras would have ABS, but I actually have customers who don't want them. Tundra customers have the option and the domestic buyers don't.
  • bcobco Member Posts: 756
    for all the options that domestics offer and toyota doesn't...i'm perfectly happy to be "forced" to accept abs brakes.

    bco
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    There is no tangent. Like two of your other posts I think you take things too personally. I believe this forum is to discuss opinions. If we all agreed on everything there'd be nothing to discuss.

    I understand your scenario completely. My only comment is that the brakes on the trailer are still activated when you release the truck brakes, even if it's a fraction of a second. My theory simply implies that skidding or not the trailer will have enough resistance to release the coupler.

    I agree that ABS isn't 100% perfect in all situations I just don't understand how it can be a detriment during towing.
  • swobigswobig Member Posts: 634
    but how about sun visors?? My Silverado doesn't have the entensions and the darn things arn't long enough to block out the sun! What about the Tundra's???
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    I just want to comment on taking things personally. I realize that what is missing form this discussion is "tone of voice" and that makes it difficult to figure out the context of many comments. Just reading some of the things you have directed my way, they seem rather personal. I can't read your face nor hear your voice to determine what you mean by some of the things you post.

    Now, you do realize that we have a lot in common right? I want to hear more about this 22" tunnel hull of yours. What brand is it? Where do you fish and what do you fish for? I just got into salt water fishing this year and have a very nice bay boat that doubles as a bass boat.
  • ratboy3ratboy3 Member Posts: 324
    The extensions and the double sun visor in the Tundra I've seen in a friend's 1998 Jimmy.

    Yeah they block out the Sun depending on the angle the light is coming from. But I've driven in the time of day that they didn't work as well.
  • swobigswobig Member Posts: 634
    is??? Chevrolet - so they say. Just thought I'd stir the pot a little...hehehe...
  • bcobco Member Posts: 756
    pullin' stuff from WAY back... LOL

    bco
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    Thanks for the interest. My boat is a 22' 10" Modified VP tunnel hull. It has two large air entrapment tunnels on either side of a center sponson. The mold was originally made by Warlock who then sold it to Howard Custom Boats in Valencia Ca. I built a supercharged 502 and ran it for 4 years with no problems with a top speed of about 105 MPH. Then 2 years ago I leaned out the #2 cylinder twice causing minor damage. I never found a definitive problem(could of been a loose AN fitting at the mechanical fuel pump, I run both an electric and mech.) so I yanked the S/C and now run it normally aspirated. It will still do 80+ and is a fun boat.

    Homey don't fish. Even though the wife and kid like it all they've ever caught was a cold!

    100% of my boating is at Lake Mead and to me it's paradise with everything from the end of the Grand Canyon to sandy beaches, small secluded coves and sometimes ocean like swells. If you're lucky you can catch this HUGE lake while it's absolute glass as far as you can see and then you can waterski for miles(well the kid can, I'm done after about 15 minutes)

    What's your rig like?
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    I made another incorrect assumption. When you mentioned a tunnel hull, I thought you were referring to a flats style center console fishing boat that is very popular in Texas and Florida. Yours sounds like an awesome rig. I was raised in souther CA and am very familiar with lake Mead and Havasu and the "river rat" boat style. Those speeds would terrify me if I saw even a small wake in front of me.

    My boat is a Ranger 200C which is purely a fishing boat. It is a shallow drafting center console with a 225 Mercury Optimax and tops out at 60 MPH on the GPS. It has a foot controlled trolling motor and is great for both fresh water bass fishing and in-shore saltwater and possibly near shore in the ocean. Most my fishing is on the Potomac River and Chesapeake Bay. You can view the boat at http://www.rangerboats.com/boats/model_detail.asp?model=200C
  • bigsnagbigsnag Member Posts: 394
    So, I'll say it again. When the brakes lock up on the trailer they do provide less "stopping power" as you call it, BUT then you say that if you let off of the trucks brakes it is still being pushed by the trailer??? This is where I disagree. The wheels on the trailer, although locked up and skidding, still provide more "stopping power" than the free-wheeling truck. If you let off of the brakes on the truck then it is basically friction free, neglecting air and wheel bearing resistance. How about this we separate the two entities. At the exact instant that a trailer comes loose from a tow vehicle the brakes lock up on the trailer and the tow vehicle lets off of the gas and coasts. Which one stops sooner? The trailer. Therefore, if they happened to be hooked together, the skidding tires of the trailer would actually pull back on the truck and dis-engage the coupler. BTW, there is nothing intrinsically within the coupler to keep it engaged. Only the difference in decelerations between the two moving bodies maintains braking pressure. I'm not saying that a trailer with locked up brakes provides great deceleration, it's just that a free-wheeling truck must have less deceleration, so that means there is no force to keep the trailers brakes applied. This becomes the opposite of a situation that would apply the brakes. If you don't understand this, maybe you should take your truck (with a surge brake trailer behind it, one just like the one you have obviously towed so many times) and head over a bridge. Thin the gene pool a little. I can't help being so harsh. You are insulting me by not admitting you were wrong!
  • oldharryoldharry Member Posts: 413
    Maybe the surge coupler in Cliffy's trailer sticks. Then it would take a jerk from the truck to release the brakes rather than the simple release of pressure as you explain. Please don't follow me too closely, Cliffy. :<)

    Harry
  • bigsnagbigsnag Member Posts: 394
    That could be a possibility, I guess. I just think his scenario is ridiculous. Even if it did happen one time when he was pulling a half-loaded trailer, with one brake light, up hill, in the dark, after a light dew, during a full moon and that's when it seemed to lock up breifly while he was pumping the brakes like mad, not allowing the trailer to have time to unlock, what does that prove? Nothing. It was a freak accident. Nothing is impossible. It just goes against the entire design and thinking behind surge brakes. Surge: they brake, no surge: they don't brake. It's that simple.
  • timothyadavistimothyadavis Member Posts: 322
    Well, you took the wind out of my big "Physics for Majors 401" explanation. As you said, even after losing traction (at the coefficient of friction) the sliding trailer tire surfaces would only have zero friction in the homework-problem world of Physics class; they would still have some friction in the real world. If they didn't, then everyone would simply force the trailer brakes to stay locked all the time and simply pull the trailer until the tires started sliding; with zero or near zero friction the tires would last almost forever! ;-)

    Similarly, the rolling wheels/tires of the brakes-released truck would have zero-friction in the homework, but still surely have the absolute minimum friction possible even in the real world. They certainly would have less forward-motion-impeding friction on the road than sliding tires! Even if both were in their imaginary zero friction state, the truck's zero friction rolling tires would not be less than the trailer's non-spinning, sliding zero friction tires, right?


    (Sorry, it's gone on so long with so much confusion, I just couldn't help blurting out my thought progression anyway.)
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    Didn't I say this like a 'hundred posts ago. LOL!!

    While I never meant it to be a tangent or heated debate(well maybe heated a little!) I was just questioning Cliffy's original post of how ABS can be detrimental to towing. I guess Cliffy had a near mishap that he attributes to ABS. I know that I don't care for it while offroading because of a few mishaps but I've never had a prob towing.
  • timothyadavistimothyadavis Member Posts: 322
    Yes, you probably did. Maybe if all of us say it a few times, it will get through.... ;-)
  • timothyadavistimothyadavis Member Posts: 322
    Maybe we should all try this meditation (repeat until a state of ecstasy is achieved or until dinner time, whichever comes first):

    Rolling tires have less friction than sliding tires.
    Rolling tires have less friction than sliding tires.
    Rolling tires have less friction than sliding tires.
    ommmmmmmmmmm ommmmmmmmm
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    The problem with you going personal is that it gives one no reasonable means to communicate. I actually did get what you were saying in your post that wished death upon me. I agree that in good road conditions, you are correct. In good road conditions, the ABS in your truck has very little utility as well. On slippery roads, when ABS is most likely to be used, there is not as much friction created by skidding tires. There is considerable friction created by the fact that your decelerating truck is still in gear (there is such a thing as engine braking) and in my experience, this differential caused the truck to be pushed and did not allow for disengagement of the surge brakes. Now stop being such a jerk.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    What has more friction on wet pavement, rolling tires connected to a truck in gear or sliding tires?
  • bcobco Member Posts: 756
    all: "cliffy, the american flag is red, white, and blue."

    cliffy: "well, no, actually, it's not."

    all: "cliffy, it is. ask anyone. buy color palettes, look it up...the american flag is red, white, and blue."

    cliffy: "no, cuz this one time (at band camp!) i saw an old encyclopedia that only had black and white pictures. so, in that instance, the american flag was black, white, and gray."

    all: "cliffy, in REALITY, the american flag is red, white, and blue."

    cliffy: "no...i'm telling you, i saw this picture in an encyclopdia once (ONCE!) and, i'm dead serious. the american flag is black, white, and gray."

    all: "cliffy, the american flag..."

    cliffy: "no..."


    administrative note: the "band camp" reference was to the movie american pie. if you have not yet seen it, do so immediately.

    it's time to move on to another subject. cliffy refuses to believe the "american flag is red, white, and blue..." some people are just like that...

    bco
  • timothyadavistimothyadavis Member Posts: 322
    "What has more friction on wet pavement, rolling tires connected to a truck in gear or sliding tires?"

    Unless the truck in gear has a manual transmission, or has the Honda Odyssey Grade Logic (and has been braking while going downhill which has caused it to down shift), or the driver has specifically down shifted the automatic, my guess is that there is very little braking energy in jack-knife possible situations. The truck would have been in 3rd gear or higher and my guess is that very little braking energy would get translated through an automatic transmission in that situation. Sliding tires still have a whole lot of friction as evidenced by the energy expended creating those black marks on our highways.

    Now if we imagine that you were going down hill in 2nd gear, and that the truck has studded snow tires, and the road is really icy (so the locked up, non-studded trailer tires are sliding with minimal friction), and the trailer is the heaviest possible (so that gravity is adding its force), and.... No, it's too hard to imagine a case where I would begin worrying about having ABS or not while trailering. Now that I know that, maybe I'll considering actually towing something! ;-)
  • gotribe1gotribe1 Member Posts: 81
    Cliffy, I know that you were talking about "surge brakes". Do you realize that almost all travel trailers and fifth wheel trailers have "electric brakes"? I'm a novice at towing, but I know that when I release the brakes on my truck I also release the brakes on my trailer. I can adjust power of the brakes AND the aggressiveness of the trailer brakes. I like to adjust things so that the truck is doing slightly more of the braking. That being said, I wouldn't be without ABS! I think it is absurd that something as important as ABS wouldn't be standard on a vehicle over $15000! Is it an option because Toyota can't make enough ABS units to make it standard? And give me a break all of you tundrats! What I think most us who make negative comments about the tundra are saying can be summed up like this. The Tundra is not a BAD vehicle, however as a full size truck it is INFERIOR!
  • bcobco Member Posts: 756
    471-473...you people are bad!
  • ryanbabryanbab Member Posts: 7,240
    Well just got back from a 4 day vacation. Seen many trucks. Hauling trailers and not. To my surprise i seen no Pickup trucks with trailers jackknifed. I was so sure i would after hearing all the talk in here.

    Also on a side note i only seen a total of 2 tundras this whole weekend on the road. Kinda amazing when i seen countless numbers of fords, chevys and dodges. How could this be when the tundras sales are up though? My hypothesis is that people need a real truck. How many tundras you see hauling a trailer with a 69 camaro or mustang? I seen a silverado (1500)hauling a 69 camaro behind it on a trailer kinda amazed me.

    You guys need to see the real world and how people actually use their trucks.

    Ryan
  • gotribe1gotribe1 Member Posts: 81
    a couple of weeks ago. Then I was given a lecture about statistics and how uneducated I was. I had the same experience last Friday. I was driving through Michigan down I75 & US23. I saw thousands of RVs heading north; [I guess in Michigan they now have a new state law that gives them 4 day holidays... more beer time huh Tim] toward the Upper Peninsula. Not one of them was a Tundra that was towing anything! But I did finally see a Tundra at a campground near Traverse City that was set up for towing. But what an embarrasment! It was the little vehicle that people tow BEHIND their motorhome! You know, like the Corolla or Chevette that people use to go get more beer and fried chicken after they get to where they wanna go. I also saw an Explorer that had imitated a dog by rolling over. I wanted to keep away from those as much as possible!I didn't want to have my ABS cause my trailer to jacknife avoiding them! I better end this so one of the Tundrats can start grading my grammer and spellin'
  • bcobco Member Posts: 756
    ...a "bunch" of tundras this weekend. note: bunch = 2. have prob'ly seen a total of 5 or 6 in the columbia, south carolina, area since they've been in production. went to myrtle beach for the weekend and saw 2 in the area. course, i also saw what seemed like a million new model 'rados. just ask my wife. see, every time i see a new model 'rado on the road i say, "now THAT'S a NICE TRUCK!" needless to say, after the 2.5 hour drive over, she was done smiling each time i said it. after our first day there, she didn't even find it REMOTELY humorous. on the way back, she took to telling me to shut-up and turning the radio way up each time one drove by...LOL!

    bco
  • bcobco Member Posts: 756
    i did NOT see any jack knifed pickup/trailer combos either this weekend. must've been a lucky weekend. i hear the nhtsa is coming out with a recommendation to ban towing of any trailers over 500 lbs behind 1/2 and 3/4 ton pickups soon just in case though...

    LOL

    bco
  • ryanbabryanbab Member Posts: 7,240
    Kyle sounds like my gf she caught me many times staring at trucks (not all silverados) driving next to me or in the oppostie direction. She even started talking about them saying that was a nice one or that was an ugly one (red silverado with a bright red boat yuck). I think she puts up with me and my trucks very well i give her alot of credit. She still hasnt got to drive mine should i let her maybe???

    Ryan
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