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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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    m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I fully expect Mitsubishi to throw in the towel. Can NOT say that their products are bad in any way, but the dealerships around here closed, so interest must be near nil. We have one dealer now in an smaller city up North of my city, and that is it for the next 150 mi. each way. In Calif, that is not too many dealers. With Japan and German makes stacked one on top of another, Mitsu's lack of dealerships says it all.
    -Loren
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    bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Kia's what are more expensive than Hyundai's what?

    Are you a member of the Apostrophe Protection Society? LOL.
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    goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I can assure you that TL owners don't mistake their car for a Camry, nor a Hertz-inspired Sonata.
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    m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    How about an Accord?
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    goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    How about an Accord?

    No thank you
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Its easy to say a Fusion is as good as an Accord/Camry because you obviously don't know any better having only owned Fords for 25+ years. Of course its a no brainer - DUH! "

    Wrong@! I have owned an Accord.. I just didn't see all the great stuff people claimed about the car. To me it was very appliance like, dull, boring, no soul. I also hate to tell you.. my resale was not what Edmunds/KBB or anyone posts her online.. And I know I'm going to hear "your not any good at negotiations.. Wrong again! I do this type of work for a living... :P
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Get out on the net... A new Fusion is supposed to be released in 09. This is all a part of Ford keeping new vehicles in the lineup to keep people interested.
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "I have to disagree with your analysis of the DT3.0. It is surpassed in every way by Honda's 3.0 engine. Smoother, quieter, more powerful, and better fuel economy to boot, from the same size engine."

    I disagree with you.. The Duratec 3.0 is a proven engine and has a whole lot of history if you are willing to search the net for it. Smoother? Nope, this is once again a perceived opinion. Quieter? Nope, this has already been disproved by actual sound readings someone posted in this forum over and over and over again. It compared the Camry/Accord/Fusion/Sonata interior noise levels.. More powerful? by 20HP? and about .4 seconds 0-60? Not much there to brag about..Fuel economy? about 1MPG?? Maybe.. Try again.. :blush:
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "What is this guy's problem?? So I spent less on a better built car, that's a crime? At this point in time the Sonata is built on the most techically advanced assembly line in the United States. I see with every square inch of the car that it is built with quality components, materials and the fit and finish I will stack up next to any car you care to talk about here. My job is not to convert nut cases, my purpose here is to chime in that it doesn't take $27,000 out of pocket to own a quality automobile. No it isn't for everyone but neither are the religious fanatics here prasing the virtues of Hondas and Toyotas like this is the only thing out there worth buying"

    Oh man! You hit this right on the money!! You see, you bought a great car. You didn't let stigma, or image get the best of you. I don't have a Sonata, I own a Fusion. Its folks like you and I, and others that can see we don't have to pay $25,000++ to own a Honda/Camry. Its only a matter of time for more consumers to realize they don't need to spend the extra $$ to own a reliabile, great quality/fit/finish automobile. Don't let the Honda/Toyota fanatics tell you otherwise. They have buyer remorse for paying $2-4,000 more than you and I for nothing... :shades:
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "And what pray tell is wrong with the over 40 crowd? If you are lucky you might just live to become one of us old farts. We ain't as dumb as you think we are. "

    LOL!! I resemble an old fart too! :surprise:
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    booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    You're not a very happy guy are ya?

    BTW - 'your' is not a substitute for you're.
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    booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    They have buyer remorse for paying $2-4,000 more than you and I for nothing

    Extra money to keep from settling for a Fusion is well spent cash.
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    w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    ontop wrote: "Kia's what are more expensive than Hyundai's what?"

    Generally, model for model, Kia is more expensive than Hyundai. Check it out - I can buy either Sonata, GLS or Limited, for less than the semi-equivalent Optima. When I bought a 2006 Elantra GLS last year, the delivered price was less than a 2006 Kia Spectra, a comparable model.

    Go price Kia's, you will be surprised that their MSRP's are higher - model for model - than Hyundai's.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    i think you are confused about the reference to 'model'.

    Yes he is. I meant model as in business process, not vehicle.
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    m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    And if you leave a Kia out in the rain, or wash it, it grows hair! Or perhaps that was Chia. I can't recall.
    -Loren
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Quote from cajuncycler:

    I asked my car and she agrees.

    First he says he talks to his car, and she talks back.

    Another quote from cajuncyler:

    My job is not to convert nut cases

    Then he calls Accord/Camry buyers nut cases. Incredible!
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    tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    With all due respect, I have no buyer's remorse for purchasing a 2006 Accord SE auto. The Sonata, Camry, and Fusion are good cars. For my new Accord, I paid $18,000 before TTL. At the time, I could not purchase a Ford Fusion (even if I wanted to) for a cheaper figure, or the 2007 Camry LE (going then for 19,700 plus TTL (this being May/June of 2006). The equivalent Sonata would have been cheaper -perhaps $1,000 to $2,000. Why did I buy the Accord over those 3? Price, reputation, resale value, good fuel economy, interior comfort, and awesome resale. I also did not want a first year of a new model (would likely refuse to buy a 2008 Accord due mainly to that reason). I turned in a 2004 Accord LX auto with over 30,000 miles with $700 to $900 in front bumber damage (minor gash) and got over $14,500 for my trade, or $3,000 less than I paid for the 2004 Accord LX.

    So no buyer's remorse. I got the best car for me.
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    mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    I was just going to say that. You don't have to spend $25,000 to buy a Camry or an Accord, either! They sell for under $20k every day.

    I feel like people who bought cars OTHER than Camry/Accord constantly feel the need to overestimate how much those two actually sell for. I guess its an attempt to make themselves feel better because they got a better "deal."

    Under that logic, though, why would you ever buy a BMW or a G35? I mean, a new G is going to sell for 33-35k or so. The new Camry SE V6 will come very close to matching it performance wise but will undercut it price wise by serveral thousand. So in that comparison, the Camry is the smarter choice, right?

    You can't just take the sum of parts, check down a list, and declare everything equal between these cars. There are real differences, some subtle, some not. I've NEVER contended there's anything wrong with a Sonata or a Fusion. I have said that there's a reason the Camry and Accord cost more, and are in such high demand, and its not all bs marketing.

    And yes, Sonata and Fusion are high quality automobiles. But it has taken me a LONG time in my life to admit, but: Accord and Camry are HIGHER quality automobiles.

    I refused to admit that for years. I was very close-minded and indignant about it. But that was before my wife got pregnant and I had to actually start thinking like a "grown up." Finally opened my eyes and did a real car search.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    They have buyer remorse for paying $2-4,000 more than you and I for nothing

    Just can't help yourself from implying Honda/Toyota owners idiocy, can you? Next thing you'll be doing at this rate is saying "liar liar, pants on fire."

    By this logic, the Accord is the exact same vehicle as the Fusion, except for badge and price. Do you really believe what you are saying? HONESTLY?
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Get out on the net... A new Fusion is supposed to be released in 09. This is all a part of Ford keeping new vehicles in the lineup to keep people interested.

    You mean like the Crown Vic and Escape? Don't try telling me the Escape was "new" when it got revised front fascias. I don't think the Fusion needs a lot of attention, really. For me, it needed a little engine refinement and an updated interior (say, with gauges that don't mimic the look (glowing that "90s green" in the Accord that debuted in 1994), and with a corporate audio/climate stack). Other than that, there isn't a ton of room for improvement in the Fusion. It is a great car, that for me, was let down by the interior design - quality was even pretty good, great for what I had seen of Ford in the past.

    For me, the blocky, dated (to me) looking was about the only turnoff, and what made me really appreciate the Honda's flowing, current-looking interior design. I also paid more to get something that was worth more to me, which contrary to what you may believe, doesn't make me stupid. It just means I have different values.

    Why can't you admit that you can have different values, pay more to get what you want, and not be as you would claim "only caught up in brand image?" Can you admit this, and that those who pay more to get what they want (even if it's not what YOU want) aren't flippin idiots like you imply daily? Or will you ignore this post like you ignore every post that I make that proves you wrong?

    It'll be interesting to see.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    You can't just take the sum of parts, check down a list, and declare everything equal between these cars. There are real differences, some subtle, some not. I've NEVER contended there's anything wrong with a Sonata or a Fusion. I have said that there's a reason the Camry and Accord cost more, and are in such high demand, and its not all bs marketing.

    Buddy, I've been trying to convince someone of this for months now, and they ignore the logic of things at continue to post that Honda/Toyota owners paid more for nothing - by proving a logical point, you are only going to be ignored. It's sad, but if history is our judge, it's true.
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    But it has taken me a LONG time in my life to admit, but: Accord and Camry are HIGHER quality automobiles.

    How old were you, when you saw the light? I was 26 when I bought my first "Quality" car (1992 EX Accord).
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    99si2fun99si2fun Member Posts: 2
    Well I bought the best car for my circumstances and am quite happy with my purchase, a Ford Fusion. I love the way the car handles, the I4 is a good mix of efficiency and power with the 5-spd, and the interior ergonomics and exterior styling are IMO excellent.

    I was also considering the offerings from VW (I like the new I5, but not the styling), but the local dealership didn't want the sale, plus the research on reliability and service was not so hot.

    The real reason I am so anti-Toyota is that I have never (in 3 vehicle purchases) had a good sales experience with this brand. I've walked out in disgust multiple times. The vehicles just don't appear to be that superior to justify the level of frustration required to make the sale, especially for the added cost. I have to admit that I am so turned off by this company that I enjoy hearing about their failures. (perhaps some people here feel the same way about Ford, GM, etc.)

    I would prefer the styling and driving characteristics of the civic over the accord, but given what happened to my last civic that vehicle was just not an option.
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    w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    Your age tends to explain your lack of objectivity and historical perspective. When one's lived long enough in this country, you see marketing trends and cycles - many of them. Age tends to place a certain perspective on everything, especially anything related to "consumerism."

    What drove consumers to Honda and Toyota in the first place in the late '60s and through the '70s? Quality and value vs. price, against the competition back then, including Ford, Chevy, VW, Fiat, all the Brit cars, and many other marques which are no longer sold in the USA. Initially, when a person bought a Honda or Toyota, people seriously laughed. American consumers were children of the '30s, '40s, or early '50s. During the '50s and early '60s, ANYTHING made in Japan was considered junk by the masses here in this country - and, frankly, most often it was. Made in Japan was truly synonymous with the word "junk."

    Slowly, but surely, this perception changed, simply because Honda and Toyota delivered build-quality and reliability at a much lower price than the competition. Honda and Toyota earned their new found reputation for building a quality product.

    I submit the same cycle is happening with other global manufacturers. Anything manufactured in Korea was also considered junk, albeit Korean manufacturers appeared on the scene decades after the Japanese. Slowly this perspective is changing too. For example, how many people who use LG (Lucky Goldstar) cellphones or washer/dryers or refrigerators, or Samsung products know or care if they're made in Korea? Being good American consumers, they are simply looking for the best product for the lowest price.
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    ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    Don't want to go too OT, but sorry, NO Camry SE V6 is going to come close to matching the performance or driving dynamics of a G35.
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    zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    I've had the mazda6 for a bit over a year now and have taken several 4 hour+ road trips in it and have found it to be quite good. the first month took a little adjusting and figuring out where I liked the tilt, angle, and steering wheel, but now everything is perfect. I do wish the horizontal seat part was a touch longer, but no big deal. By the way, my 6 is an 05, and I heard that the 06's and 07's have improved seats.
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    that hard bulge that hits just above your lower back doesn't bother you?

    There was nothing like that for me. Did you play with the lumbar support?

    For myself, I always dial the lumbar support all the way down in every car. I have not found one where that is in the right place for me. For me it is always too low and merely serves to reduce the effective depth of the seat. Maybe the bulge you feel fits me just right :) , since I would need the lumbar to be higher than it is???
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    By the way, Toyota salesman was dismissive about the transmission and rpm flare issues...he said that people are complaining about nothing

    What a surprise, coming from someone trying to sell you a Toyota for as much as possible. ;)

    Thanks for posting your impressions. I have not driven the Toyota and probably won't like it, if I ever get around to driving one. I'll likely find the ride too soft or "floaty" rather than the "smoothest"...even though I am in the over 40 crowd :).
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    cajuncyclercajuncycler Member Posts: 172
    Extra money to keep from settling for a Fusion is well spent cash.

    Since the perception is in the mind of the buyer, I think that one does not have to own a Honda, Mazda or Toyota to be happy. For you a Fusion is beneath you but not everyone has your brilliant perception for that need. ;)
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    cajuncyclercajuncycler Member Posts: 172
    Not incredible at all elroy. After reading all these posts it seems to me that most of you are not only talking to your cars, you are listening to them and making love to them too! I have a passion for saving money and a love the practical. The Honda/Toyota posters here seem a bit obsessive for my taste. Yes Sonata? um, ok, She says she still likes Camrys for friends but the Hondas are just obnoxious party goers! Have fun guys! And Merry Christmas, Happy Hannuka and whatever else it is they celebrate at this time of the year. :D :P
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    cajuncyclercajuncycler Member Posts: 172
    And you sir weren't the one I was replying to. So unruffle your feathers.
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    cajuncyclercajuncycler Member Posts: 172
    I admit it requires some manuvering. But somehow I manage. :D
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I've owned 1 Acura and 3 Hondas and would have bought an Accord if the Fusion hadn't come along. So I do know (and appreciate) the difference.
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    booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    I have a passion for saving money and a love the practical.

    If this is so, why not buy a used Elantra? That would certainly save you a lot of money, would be practical, and would stroke your passion for saving money.
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Someone at one time posted getting a VP Accord 5spd for about 15 or $16,000.. I am in search of this post. In todays paper they advertise the same car for $17,388 for a 4cyl 5spd Accord VP. Talking with my manager friend.. This is about a "$300" profit for the dealer. Don't all dealers buy the cars for the same price from Honda Motor company? So are you telling me Honda dealers are now taking losses to sell vehicles??!! I don't think so... ;)
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Wow, do I get the Honda/Toyota armies spun up when I mention price/value of vehicles.. I wonder why if they are so confident thier extra $$ they spent is supposed to have purchased them a vehicle that is leaps and bounds better than any car out here.
    Price - ok, Honda/Toyota owners, if the Accord/Camry are selling for Fusion/Milan/Sonata prices.. then why oh why in every car review/comparision are the Accord/Camry priced thousands more? Why when shopping online are they priced thousands more? Why when you look at the paper advertisements are they priced thousands more?
    In todays paper.. Accord V6 EX? for $25,888.. want the dealer name and number? email me...
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Wow, do I get the Honda/Toyota armies spun up when I mention price/value of vehicles"

    Maybe because you yourself don't believe your own spin. As was pointed out, if value is the be all and end all for you, why aren't you driving a Sonota? They have the best value in the class. I admit it. (As an aside, I don't buy on value alone)

    But the question is, why does a 5 year old Accord design lead the class in sales and beat the competition? Two hundred and fifty thousand Americans are not hoodwinked. It's more likely some of us here are not willing to face reality.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Can we get off the price thing? It's pointless. People won't buy a car that they don't like just because it's a bit cheaper and they'll pay more for a car that they do like for whatever reason.
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    plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91107&acode=USB70HOC011A0&restor- - - e=false

    That's the ugly reality. Honda vastly overprices their cars. This also includes delivery, so the price is $17,108 if you remove that(because none of the dealers locally advertize their prices with it included). $2900+ difference between MSRP and CarsDirect's price. And you KNOW they aren't selling it at cost. Their average is $300-400 plus the holdback they keep for themselves.

    PLUS, That's with automatic! Subtract $719 for stickshift. $16,390 beofore delivery. And Honda isn't currently offereing any incentives on 2007 models. That's a HUGE amount of profit for the dealer if you believe the "there's only $300 in profit in this car".

    Also, Honda has $1000 rebates on last year's models quite routinely in the fall, which is how you get in the $15K plus change range.

    Oh - one thing, though. It's mechanically identical to the EX except for the missing rear swaybar. Add it back in at your local mechanic to greatly improve the handling.

    But this does bring up the point that Honda overprices its cars.
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Since the perception is in the mind of the buyer, I think that one does not have to own a Honda, Mazda or Toyota to be happy.

    Hey now, don't go putting Mazda in with Honda/Toyota :) .

    The Mazda6 sells for about the same price as the Fusion/Milan...IOW, $2000-3000 less than Camry or Accord. If you want a group of three...Altima is the other one that seems to be in the Camcord price range.
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    m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    250,000 or more Americans once wore bell bottom pants, for no apparent reason. :blush: Just thought I'd point that out...

    Honda beats Camry in one way, in that the design has had enough time to work out any bugs. Gas prices are high, and Honda company is seen as the leading company. Some are afraid of the new Camry due to early on transmission problems, or perhaps it is the facially challenged look. As for Sonata, it has come a long way, but I am sure it is not better than the Accord and Camry in most respects. It can be a solid value leader, as in most stuff per dollar. Would be a car which is not a bad choice, but then again, most new cars in the appliance car class, are now so much better than the old days. The Accord may be better in some ways than is the Milan or Fusion, but I would lean more towards buying a Milan, if style matters at all. The Accord is not ugly, but is no more stylin' than say the Sonata. Sonata has a great warranty, but not the resale of the Accord. The Camry is a good choice for resale value, and possibly trouble free. Hard to say these days which appliance car will in reality last the longest. I am sure there are many people still in doubt about Hyundai, and are waiting yet another year or two to see how things go. A new plant, new engine, new everything is great, but has NO longer term testing to go by. I test drove a used Sonata, which had lumbar support on the seat, though I could not adjust the seat. The reason is that the little handle fell off. The short test drive was OK, but there was nothing which struck me as exciting.

    My conclusion so far is that my test drive of a used CTS yielded the most fun, so I may not be willing to settle for appliance class again. Rumor has it the FWD Mazda6 and Milan are somewhat sporty, so I may give them a go. What I really long for is a nice coupe again, with RWD. Yeah, I know a Bimmer is fine, but only if you pay the upkeep.
    :shades:
    -Loren
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "But this does bring up the point that Honda overprices its cars."

    According to who? I argue you get what you pay for. Price and value are in the eyes of the beholder. Some people might think the $15 steak at Outback is the same as a $150 steak at a top-end steak house. Some don't see it that way. Fair enough. But then you have to wonder about the whole sales thing. Why so many people buy overpriced (sic) cars?
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    cajuncyclercajuncycler Member Posts: 172
    If this is so, why not buy a used Elantra? That would certainly save you a lot of money, would be practical, and would stroke your passion for saving money

    Well to be perfectly honest, I wasn't looking for a Sonata when I found it. My Saturn needed replacing, I had come into some money for a good down payment and actually stopped in to look at the Kia Sedona at the same dealership. But I was offered a test ride and I was blown away by the engine and solid ride and all around appeal of the car. They offered to sell it to me for $16,595. I didn't get it that day. Instead it got me thinking about a car over an SUV. I went out and test drove a Honda Accord V6 and a 4. Test drove a V6 Camry, Test drove an Impala, and a Mazda 6 V6 (my son has one). Oh and I checked out the Chrysler PT Cruiser. But after reading the problems with them here on Edmunds I quickly ruled them out. Nobody could match the car for the price and feature for feature so after I came in from work (I work on an offshore drilling rig) I called and the car was still there. I decided after reading these forums, road tests, and any internet info I could find that I would be just nuts NOT to buy the Sonata. True I could have been wowed by a fancier interior on another car but when I weighed all the plusses and minuses the Sonata was it. Sorry I didn't even test drive the Elantra or the Kia Optima. Could have but didn't. Thought about a Mustang but I got grand kids and wanted the 4 doors. In the end I am completely satisfied with my purchase. May you all be as happy with your rides as I am! If you gotta make payments it's nice to smile every time you get behind the wheel. ;)
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    readerreaderreaderreader Member Posts: 253
    Have any of you guys seen it?
    Have any of you checked it out?

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

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    I just cannot believe such epic beauty can be found in this price range.
    Everything else just seems to pedestrian, you know?

    That said, I do like the VW Passat a whole lot!

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

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    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Why they don't sell is beyond me. Good German engineering. Very pretty shapes.
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    readerreaderreaderreader Member Posts: 253
    I forgot this one:
    I love it!!!

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    I finally feel like there are exciting choices in the consumer market!
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    booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Love that exterior styling and what a beautiful interior.

    But the knock will be against the fit and finish of the entire car, and its old-school engineering.

    I'd like to see Honda do this interior option in the new 08 Accords.
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    readerreaderreaderreader Member Posts: 253
    booyahcramer,

    Which interior? The Passat?
    Volkswagens are known to have the highest quality interiors in their respective classes.
    Almost all auto writers would unanimously agree on that.

    The Honda Accord even tries to mimic the Passat interior; which is not at all a bad thing in any way. So, like the Accord, I would not worry about the interior quality of the Passat. Believe it or not, if anything, the Passat is better (although it is slightly more expensive).

    The 2008 interior for the Accord will likely mimic the new Civic, since this is the direction Honda wants to take their cars.
    Honda's chief designer in Japan was very hurt to hear that most Americans think Hondas are boring and lifeless, so he decided to spice things up.
    That is why we have this. Take a look at the interior, it may be similar in the 2008 Accord (a sort of space-age theme if you fancy that):

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    That is how they should look going forward. What do you think?

    Again, I wouldn't worry about the interior quality of a Passat. They are very likely the best in the class (although it may surprise you).
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    bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    I sure hope he wasn't referring to the Chev interior. That has to be the fugliest ever. (But, beauty IS in the eye of the beholder.)
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