What data are you talking with? kdhspyder has reiterated where his pricing info is from. You repeatedly selectively choose to ignore the information presented by others. I don't think rampant ignorance is the intention of this board, though Im sure our host could provide clarification.
please try www.toyota.com and check out if vsc is even an option you can delete on the SE and XLE for v6. Please research first
Sorry this is getting silly because both you and kwon are making silly posts all the time. The VSC is an added option. You do not have to buy it. I know this for a fact, trust me. The 'build your own' websites are run by regional offices of Toyota. If they want to force you to get it then they put it that way but you don't have to. Please you really don't know what you are talking about.
Professional driving or not, during bad weather driving or higher speeds at the highway, it will hamper driving though at the same time it will try to help clear from danger.
This statement makes no sense at all so I will agree that you don't understand the concept.
The yearend sales will tell where the Sonata growth came from. It's too early in just one quarter. The end of the year when the plant has been operating fully and we see what happened to the Sebring, Malibu, Taurus, Fu / lan will tell us from where the growth came.
Listen i don't need to nitpick on another pt about the camry in any instance, look at the sales number and how much the sonata has bit into the midsize market already(a nice chunk from the camcord sales too, even with the new camry).
I believe there was a pretty recent article stating that 30% of the Sonata's sales go to fleets.
Since the two of you won't discuss the merits of the vehicles without getting angry, I'll just summarize the arguments.
Hyundai now makes two very capable midsized vehicles that have reached the level of Toyota and Honda and Nissan probably surpassing Ford and certainly GM and DC.
The Sonata is very very attractively priced and rich in features. Technologically it is 4-5 years behind the new Camry in capability and top-end features.
The Azera is a surprise in how good it is right from the start in that it nearly matches the best qualities of the Camry/Avalon but the powertrain again is a step behind ( transmission, acceleration, fuel economy ). It too is very attractively priced but again it lacks several top-end features.
The new '07 Camry stretches from a base model which is competition for the Sonata in the basic transportation segment to being competition for the Azera in the near luxury segment. The new Camry/Avalon powertrain is the class of the midsize segment pending further updates. Pricing is significantly higher on the new Gen6 Camry than the Sonata and somewhat higher than the Azera.
The warranties on the Hyundai's are the best in the segment. Toyota's reputation for quality, dependability and reliability is second to none in the segment.
That's it in a nutshell. Thanks for your input gentlemen.
I have not read all the previous posts - because with all this back and forth its getting a bid childish. If Hyundai increased its supply, then demand for the product increased. Monthly sales have nothing to do with where the car is sourced from -overseas or abroad. There may be temporary shortages if its sourced overseas causing demand to exceed supply, but again its temporary. That argument makes no sense with all due respect.
It looks like Hyundai had a good month in sales, but you need to read a recent article about why Hyundai is coming out with the 2007s faster than normal and why they are "adusting the prices for 2007." They are also selling 30% of their sales to fleet, which will impact resale values.
As far as the Camry its a good vehicle, but like all vehicles in the mid-size market, its just too competitive now and prices for this vehicle will soften. The Altima is next up to bat, and then a year after the Accord. Looks like when all/most new models are available, the prices will be quite good. If you had to buy a mid-size car now/future, its looks like there'll be a lot of good choices and very good discounts.
As far as the Azera and the Avalon, both look good, but reliability are question marks. Avalon got hit with a white dot by CR, but CR is CR. We have to wait and see if the model improves and whether the tranny issue is a problem or just a figment of one's imagination, especially since the vehicle has been out for less than 1.5 years +/-.
"The Sonata is very very attractively priced and rich in features. Technologically it is 4-5 years behind the new Camry in capability and top-end features."
Once again, you amuse me. I just had a test drive on a new Camry Sunday. There were nothing more advanced in Camry, other than fancy looking dashboard.
Maybe you talking about Navigation system? Anyone can add that on their cars if they want. Its not tech matters, its price matters.
Amusing indeed, because the U.S. Sonata has a navigation system, bluetooth ability, high-intensity discharge headlights, keyless start, 268 horsepower (with 22 MPG city), a 6-speed Automatic, right?...Wait, it has none of those. It has a 6-disc changer, Auto Climate Control, optional sunroof...just like the 1998 Accord EX V6 had standard.
There is a reason it the Hyundai carries a lower pricetag, because it can't compete at the level of a loaded Camry...which we all should now by now.
You can measure sales all year round. But seasonality enters into it ( e.g.1st qtr normally is not 25% of annual sales ) plus in this specific case for most of last year Sonata's were imported not produced here so month over month comparisons are not valid.
Which goes to the other point the Sonata wasn't suddenly discovered in Oct of 2005. Yes the Sonata was updated but the reason for the surge in volume ( retail or fleet ) is that the new plant came on line and Hyundai is going to ( must ) fill it right away by hook or by crook. This is the main reason for the 'doubling' of sales. This plant has to get online and be filled quickly in order to be able to cover fixed costs and to get the line cranking at its best capability. Fleet sales, giveaways whatever it takes to push volume through the plant will be done. It's good production management.
I guess its ok to reply to my own post. For the 2007 Hyundais and the article - I was referring to - it was the Sonata.
I just got a quote of $16.5 plus ttl for a 2006 GLS V-6 after all rebates. For the life of me several salespersons at Hyundai indicated the rebates total $3,000 (2000 cash plus 1,000 finance), which I don't think is correct. It seems like I'm back dealing with a Salesperson at my local Toyota Dealership again. I think ESL or EFL course may be needed.
Y Camry? Y don't you compare to Lexus. At $31,000, its almost there anyway. Lots of Korean domestic cars are have those features, but not safety features like USA sales versions. You have to remember that any company can add that on their cars. However, how many people will buy Hyundai if they add those features and ask for $31,000?
If you had mentioned price, I would have conceded that, but instead you made a false statement which I corrected for the readers. I never said the Camry was cheaper, or that the Sonata wasn't good value for the money. In fact, I mentioned the Sonata's lower price.
Why won't Korea take the USA seriously and give us the good features...they are making a poor showing by not doing so.
"Amusing indeed, because the U.S. Sonata has a navigation system, bluetooth ability, high-intensity discharge headlights, keyless start, 268 horsepower (with 22 MPG city), a 6-speed Automatic, right?...Wait, it has none of those. It has a 6-disc changer, Auto Climate Control, optional sunroof...just like the 1998 Accord EX V6 had standard."
Is a navigation system bluetooth ability so what? and how many buyers will get that , can even afford it for a car like this(another cost increase that every camry buyer must pay for even if they don't get it). High intensity discharge headlights(i don't think the sonatas is too shabby either), 268 horses(0-60 its not that much better than the sonata(. of seconds), plus the sonata does 22mpg also), Auto climate control(one thing out of your list), sunroof(i believe sonata has that) , 6 speed auto(does it really matter??) whats next a 7 speed? its been stated by numerous articles that too many gears actually can hurt a cars perfomance and 4-5 is more than good.
Does the camry have any styling(still ugly)? handling performance? good brakes?(and these are elemantary things a car should be good at doing) uses struts(thats what you call a 4-5 years behind or cars like civic has), class leading space? std esc, traction, and abs on all models?, sufficient warranty, affordable price in any way? Wait a moment, it has none of those. Do i really care about a 6 speed auto compare to some good brakes?? lets get real now
Even though, I don't have any blue tooth device I can use, I use yahoo map only once a year, and rather not to have special bright head light that will make a police think I'm way over speeding than my actual driving speed is.
If you don't like what someone else says, just skip it and keep going. Please don't take the time to post to them you don't like it, it's not worth it and does nothing to contribute productively to this conversation. Just figuratively put the person on "ignore".
We need to get this conversation back on an even keel and get past all of this bickering. All of you need to help with this.
I see an entire school of red herring swimming about.
You'll have to explain to me exactly what you mean by "Technologically it (The Sonata) is 4-5 years behind the new Camry in capability and top-end features."
Where in the world did you get the 4-5 years? What is your formula for figuring years? Did you pull it out of your, uh, spreadsheet, out of thin air, or are you just repeating a remark you read on the Internet? I bet I know. You sit in the driver's seat, grip the steering wheel, look around and breathe in that new Camry aroma and say, "yep, yep, this car is 4-6 years ahead of the Sonata."
Back to Earth. In 6 months, the Sonata (or any car) could be packed with all the same gizmos as the Camry. But then, I don't know if I would want to buy it. European and Korean Sonatas already have many of those gizmos. Does that make them 4-6 years ahead of their American counterparts?
The "capabilty" part is something you'll REALLY have to explain! Acceleration? Top end? Playing chess? What is the Camry capable of doing that the Sonata isn't capable of until the year 2012? And are they things that really matter, or are they just more gizmos and toys?
Camry (07) seem plenty strong based on the tests I've read so far. And actually the Camry SE V6 was just tested by R/T at 6.1 seconds to 60, which is half a second faster than the fastest Sonata test I've read (C/D Dec 05). The edmunds.com test put it closer to a full second- these are differences that the discerning consumer might notice. (I can tell the difference between a Camry 4 and an Accord 4, and thats about the difference between the two.
Also, choe13, although there may be a low take rate on the Camry with Navigation, I would imagine otherwise, given that its now available on many more versions of the Camry -including the XLE 4, SE 4 5M, SE 4 5A, Hy...additionally, lots of folks will have Bluetooth- all XLE buyers, a majority of SE buyers, Hybrid buyers.
Styling is very subjective, and I find the Camry quite attractive, and certainly more proportional than the outgoing generation. How does the Camry trail the Sonata in handling? The text of the edmunds.com article would indicate otherwise:
"the logbooks gushed with admiration for the Camry's supple, quiet ride, uncharacteristically sporty handling and totally unexpected acceleration."
which model did they test, I can't remember? Just asking, because the magazines tend to test the sporty (SE) model, even though it porobably only accounts for about 2% of sales.
So, many of the reviews comments won't apply to other models.
Sonata has its own pretty high tech engine, suspension system(active geometry available eventually), start the car and you can't even tell its on, its db noise level is one of the quietest in its class, it uses special hinges to lift the trunk door, gorgeous modern alloy wheels design etc
i'm not sure how its 4-5 years behind? in korea this car has navigation(will be avail soon) , it will have std xm radio by next year.
I can understand you don't want things like bluetooth and Xenon (everyone has a different set of priorities); it is interesting how you make these options sound negative. You really think that Xenons will get you speeding tickets?
I think this is less true than it used to be. I started looking at the Sonata when a friend had included on their short SUV list - CRV, RAV4 & SANTA FE.
"Does the camry have any styling(still ugly)? handling performance? good brakes?(and these are elemantary things a car should be good at doing) uses struts(thats what you call a 4-5 years behind or cars like civic has), class leading space?"
Styling is subjective, IMO the SE looks real cool. Regarding handling, performance, brakes etc, most tests I have seen are praising these parameters in the Camry. Also, a 6 speed is going to optimize performance; most of todays new models are sporting these for good reason (BMW 3 Series, Passat, Fusion, Mazda6 etc.)
Don't mistake me, I do believe the Sonata is a great value (I have rented a few and like the car) and makes one think twice before paying more for other midsize cars; however, you have to respect others if they are making choices that are different from yours.
The problem here is that even if people know that most Camry's sold are not those with Nav etc, they still keep quoting the price of the fully loaded version with all these gizmos and then complain about the price.
After all, these are options, if you don't like them don't buy them. Simple.
Despite the opinions of my two friends here this is what Edmunds said about the technology in the Sonata.
A funny thing happened on the way to the forum, and that was that the 2006 Sonata, while being a completely competent, even exceptional vehicle in its own right, is about one model-generation behind the competition. Like fixing the currency of one country to that of another, Hyundai has fixed its sights on the appropriate Japanese models, completely ignoring (and yet surpassing) those from the States. The Sonata has benchmarked the right vehicles, just the wrong generations of those vehicles. The current, seventh-generation Accord was all-new in model-year 2003, about the time this Sonata was gestating and being benchmarked against it — and the fifth-gen '02-'06 Camry.
We know from experience and insider information that Hyundai did, indeed, try to split the difference between those two in terms of the then soft-riding Camry and the more athletic Accord — and it has succeeded. In the case of the completely redesigned 2007 Camry, however, Toyota has taken a huge step ahead of everything else in this market segment with its chassis, powertrain, content, features and styling.
'...one model generation behind...' is about 4-5 years. This has nothing to do with me. This was stated by the testers and reviewers and editors here at Edmunds.
The Hyundai enthusiasts seem to be insulted that the Sonata was relegated to 3rd place when they were certain that the new Sonata had just passed the Camry and was the best midsized vehicle on the market. This comparo showed that everything is a moving target and just when you feel on top BLAM... the Altima comes out and tops even the Camry. Now the Sonata is 4th and then Honda is due out next year.
As I said several times this comparo only concerns the very top end models and the buyers for them. What it does show though is that the Sonata is not really in the mix for the buyer who wants to spend $30000 .. but the Azera is. All it shows is that these buyers likely will look at the Azera, Camry, Accord, Avalon, etc. but not the Sonata. The Sonata's very good but it's lacking some features and capabilities. It's like ( better than) the 2002 Camry.
I don't have blue tooth device, I hardly travel far by car. I'm not saying those are useless. Me, myself don't need it yet. I'm not talking about you, once again, I'm talking about me.
It is also true that Xenon stands out at night. If your the police, which car would check the speed first? Bright Xenon light car coming, or car with regular yellowish light.
I saw many times Police pulled over BMWs at night when I work at night for 3 years. Are BMW owners are speeding more than others? Are police hate luxury BMW owners? Or, maybe the special blue light on BMWs have something to do with that?
No matter what, those cool lights catch peoples eyes, and police's too.
You could say " Stop over speeding then", but how many people drive 55 MPH at 55 MPH limit HWY? Semi behind you will run you over at that speed.
Just because some Edmunds reviewer says it does not make it so. Edmunds also says that the 07 Camry is "a huge step ahead of everything else in this segment with its ... styling." It's just purely subjective opinions.
Also, blanket statements like "the Camry is 4, 5 years ahead of the Sonata" are too general. It all depends on the trim. There is NOTHING about the Camry CE and Camry LE that makes it a "generation ahead" of the Sonata GL and GLS. Not in power, mpg, room, features, or anything else. And we all know that the majority of Camrys that people buy are CE/LE, as is the case with Sonata GL/GLS.
The "a step ahead" argument is probably more appropriate for a fully loaded Camry V6 XLE v. fully loaded Sonata LX. After all, the Camry in that trim has more power, mpg, better stereo, navi, push button start and some other trinkets. But at nearly $9000 more, it better be a step ahead.
Yes, the LE I test drove @ $21,300 did not have traction or ECS or manual auto, and even GL @ $14,900 has all of those. Is that make Camry more advanced than Sonata? It is overly advanced on price by $6,000.
"It is also true that Xenon stands out at night. If your the police, which car would check the speed first? Bright Xenon light car coming, or car with regular yellowish light.
I saw many times Police pulled over BMWs at night when I work at night for 3 years. Are BMW owners are speeding more than others? Are police hate luxury BMW owners? Or, maybe the special blue light on BMWs have something to do with that?
No matter what, those cool lights catch peoples eyes, and police's too."
Your argument on zenons is totally baseless. Do you have any statistics that say that cars with Zenons get more tickets? Also, any stats that BMWs get more tickets? ANy stats that BMWs that get tickets get them because of zenons? Please provide a link.
"Yes, the LE I test drove $21,300 did not have traction or ECS or manual auto, and even GL $14,900 has all of those. Is that make Camry more advanced than Sonata? It is overly advanced on price by $6,000."
I don't think anyone here is saying that a Camry with the same options costs the same as a Sonata. Not at all.
In one of your posts you mentioned that no one would buy a Sonata if it was priced for 31k with Nav etc. Does that mean that people buy Sonatas only beacuse they are cheaper? I don't think so; many buy them because they feel the car strikes a good balance between value and options that they want. Similarly, many Camry buyers think that the Camry srtikes the right balance for them - how can you find fault with that? By saying that they will get more tickets becasue they have zenons?
"Yes, the LE I test drove $21,300 did not have traction or ECS or manual auto, and even GL $14,900 has all of those. Is that make Camry more advanced than Sonata? It is overly advanced on price by $6,000"
Are you comparing MSRPs/Inovice for both, or actual market price for a GLS versus MSRP of the Camry?
The 2007 Camry IS a generation ahead of the Sonata. That is a fact. The 2007 Camry was introduced about 18 months after the 2006 Sonata. So the current-gen Camry is ahead of the current-gen Sonata. But by 18 months, not 4-5 years.
How is any company supposed to benchmark a competitor's new generation if it doesn't even exist at that time? I suppose it would be possible if you had at least one spy within the competitor's inner circle.
I've driven the new 2007 Camry, and it's a nice vehicle. I personally don't care for the exterior styling at all, but this is very subjective. The new styling will gain some new (read: a younger demographic) customers, whereas it may cause some of the Camry's historical demographics to reconsider.
In some ways, the new Camry is a bit of a paradox however. Toyota has added new technology everywhere, but on the other hand decontented some of the basics of the car. For example, exposed goose-neck trunk hinges, whereas the previous generation's were not, and absolutely no door-ding protection (i.e. belt-level trim) for its slab sides. After a few years in the supermarket parking wars, the new Camry is not going to look pretty. Of course, decontenting is the name of the game with most new models now. It seems to be a fact of life.
Anyone who copies (a.k.a. benchmarks) another product is always going to be lagging behind. This was certainly the case with the Japanese brands for many years when they were in that mode. But once they began to set standards that paradigm changed. Perhaps, the Koreans will start being free-thinkers in the future as well.
choe said: in korea this car has navigation(will be avail soon) , it will have std xm radio by next year.
If we are talking about future cars, why not say that the Altima "will be" better in its interior soon, and the new Accord is due out late next year, so talking about the current one doesn't count and isn't fair, because it WILL have it. This is basically the logic you are using. This isn't a future cars discussion.
The person who said 4-5 years behind was referring to features...such things as navigation (introduced on Camry in 2002, Accord in 2003) will be on Sonata next year, right?This will be exactly 4-5 years behind the times on technological features. It doesn't make the Hyundai a bad car for not having them, just 4-5 years behind the Automakers that brought them out first. That's all he meant! Xm radio was available on the 2004 Accord, will be available on the 2007 Sonata...need I say the same thing again? I hope not...I'm just clarifying someone else's point. The car is several years behind in releasing technological features. (XM - 2004 vs. 2007; NAV - 2002 vs. 2007+?).
See the post above this one...I listed a few (not driving dynamics, because those can't be spoken about fully objectively, only in numbers (which the Camry bested the Sonata in, as well as acceleration and fuel economy).
At the $28,000 price point, I'd get a fully loaded Camry V6 XLE.
But at the $20,000 price point, I'd get a Sonata LX over a Camry 4 cyl. LE any day of the week.
I mean, talk about having more features... the Sonata LX has so many more features than the Camry LE that it's just in a different league.
One would be hard pressed to make the argument that the Camry I4 LE is a better car than the Sonata LX. But hundreds of people would continue to fork over $20,000 for a Camry LE, even though they could have bought a Sonata LX for the same price. Most of these people would never even consider or test drive a Sonata.
It's called brand loyalty and recognition, something that Hyundai has improved upon, but it still has a ways to go.
I think at this point, it is best to - agree to disagee, because, each vehicle has its own merits and all are very good.
I would like to refute one point though: as the statement made about the Sonata being 4-5 years behind the Camry - that is not a fair assessment. I would say Backy is right on the money being around 18 month because Camry was released about 18 month after the Sonata did.
Edmunds said the Sonata benchmarked the outgoing Camry and current Accord, which is true since at the time of the Sonata release, little or no information was made about the new Camry, I don't even think many Toyota employees knew about the 07 Camry in '02 (when the Sonata was all but finalized). At the time, Toyota had just started selling its current model for a little bit of time. Edmunds did not explicitly indicate 4-5 years - that is entirely taken out of context.
And, hypotheically speaking, if the Sonata was, let's say 4-5 years behind the Camry, then the Sonata would not have better braking distance, quiter cabin, to name a few, ahead of its competitors.
Keep in mind the Camry pushed its release 6 months ahead, there was a reason to that.
You can see my point, though, about not even benchmarking the 2002 Camry in technological features. As a car, the 06 Sonata is better, but content-wise, the Camry pretty much leads the game, leaving others (Including the 4-year old Accord and 5-year old Altima) playing catch-up.
Understood but there is a reason why Hyundai didn't make niche gadgets available initially for the US market. Ask yourself one question, would you have even consider a $30K Hyundai 10 years ago, even 5 years ago?
I mean, talk about having more features... the Sonata LX has so many more features than the Camry LE that it's just in a different league. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - According to the new "chronological standard" bandied about lately, the above proves that the Camry LE is what? About 10 years behind the LX?
I bet that LE doesn't even have a standard 8 track tape deck. That makes it about 30 years behind in technology! :confuse:
Nope, and honestly, I wouldn't now. I'm still skittish of the resale value. I like the cars, but, like many buyers that avoid Hyundai, am still wary of their brand reputation in the used market.
I bet that LE doesn't even have a standard 8 track tape deck. That makes it about 30 years behind in technology!
Yeah, stuff like this is really getting us somewhere.
The short version of what you KNOW he is trying to say:
The Camry offers (and has offered) features (at a higher price) that the Sonata doesn't have, and some of the features have been out for as much as 5 years (NAV system, for Example), and STILL aren't offered by Hyundai. This doesn't make the Hyundai an inferior car, as it makes up for the lack of features with a low price.
The "a step ahead" argument is probably more appropriate for a fully loaded Camry V6 XLE v. fully loaded Sonata LX. After all, the Camry in that trim has more power, mpg, better stereo, navi, push button start and some other trinkets. But at nearly $9000 more, it better be a step ahead.
Agree absolutely. This is the very point of the whole discussion. Edmunds comparo was only on the V6 XLE vs the top of the line trims in the other products. That's all this discussion has been about. I also agree absolutely that the Sonata is a killer buy in the lower trim levels.
The whole point of this from my pov was just to point out that this Gen6 camry has raised the bar - on the upper end trim models. It has nothing to do with the middle and lower end trims. The others seemingly don't want to accept that the top end trim of the Camry is significantly better than the Sonata's - and is very much in competition with the Azera.
Comments
~alpha
Sorry this is getting silly because both you and kwon are making silly posts all the time. The VSC is an added option. You do not have to buy it. I know this for a fact, trust me. The 'build your own' websites are run by regional offices of Toyota. If they want to force you to get it then they put it that way but you don't have to. Please you really don't know what you are talking about.
Professional driving or not, during bad weather driving or higher speeds at the highway, it will hamper driving though at the same time it will try to help clear from danger.
This statement makes no sense at all so I will agree that you don't understand the concept.
The yearend sales will tell where the Sonata growth came from. It's too early in just one quarter. The end of the year when the plant has been operating fully and we see what happened to the Sebring, Malibu, Taurus, Fu / lan will tell us from where the growth came.
I believe there was a pretty recent article stating that 30% of the Sonata's sales go to fleets.
you buy your vanilla 3 grand more than it should be camry and enjoy yourself my friend =]
Hyundai now makes two very capable midsized vehicles that have reached the level of Toyota and Honda and Nissan probably surpassing Ford and certainly GM and DC.
The Sonata is very very attractively priced and rich in features. Technologically it is 4-5 years behind the new Camry in capability and top-end features.
The Azera is a surprise in how good it is right from the start in that it nearly matches the best qualities of the Camry/Avalon but the powertrain again is a step behind ( transmission, acceleration, fuel economy ). It too is very attractively priced but again it lacks several top-end features.
The new '07 Camry stretches from a base model which is competition for the Sonata in the basic transportation segment to being competition for the Azera in the near luxury segment. The new Camry/Avalon powertrain is the class of the midsize segment pending further updates. Pricing is significantly higher on the new Gen6 Camry than the Sonata and somewhat higher than the Azera.
The warranties on the Hyundai's are the best in the segment. Toyota's reputation for quality, dependability and reliability is second to none in the segment.
That's it in a nutshell. Thanks for your input gentlemen.
It looks like Hyundai had a good month in sales, but you need to read a recent article about why Hyundai is coming out with the 2007s faster than normal and why they are "adusting the prices for 2007." They are also selling 30% of their sales to fleet, which will impact resale values.
As far as the Camry its a good vehicle, but like all vehicles in the mid-size market, its just too competitive now and prices for this vehicle will soften. The Altima is next up to bat, and then a year after the Accord. Looks like when all/most new models are available, the prices will be quite good. If you had to buy a mid-size car now/future, its looks like there'll be a lot of good choices and very good discounts.
As far as the Azera and the Avalon, both look good, but reliability are question marks. Avalon got hit with a white dot by CR, but CR is CR. We have to wait and see if the model improves and whether the tranny issue is a problem or just a figment of one's imagination, especially since the vehicle has been out for less than 1.5 years +/-.
Once again, you amuse me. I just had a test drive on a new Camry Sunday. There were nothing more advanced in Camry, other than fancy looking dashboard.
Maybe you talking about Navigation system? Anyone can add that on their cars if they want. Its not tech matters, its price matters.
There is a reason it the Hyundai carries a lower pricetag, because it can't compete at the level of a loaded Camry...which we all should now by now.
Which goes to the other point the Sonata wasn't suddenly discovered in Oct of 2005. Yes the Sonata was updated but the reason for the surge in volume ( retail or fleet ) is that the new plant came on line and Hyundai is going to ( must ) fill it right away by hook or by crook. This is the main reason for the 'doubling' of sales. This plant has to get online and be filled quickly in order to be able to cover fixed costs and to get the line cranking at its best capability. Fleet sales, giveaways whatever it takes to push volume through the plant will be done. It's good production management.
I just got a quote of $16.5 plus ttl for a 2006 GLS V-6 after all rebates. For the life of me several salespersons at Hyundai indicated the rebates total $3,000 (2000 cash plus 1,000 finance), which I don't think is correct. It seems like I'm back dealing with a Salesperson at my local Toyota Dealership again. I think ESL or EFL course may be needed.
Lots of Korean domestic cars are have those features, but not safety features like USA sales versions. You have to remember that any company can add that on their cars. However, how many people will buy Hyundai if they add those features and ask for $31,000?
Why won't Korea take the USA seriously and give us the good features...they are making a poor showing by not doing so.
Is a navigation system bluetooth ability so what? and how many buyers will get that , can even afford it for a car like this(another cost increase that every camry buyer must pay for even if they don't get it). High intensity discharge headlights(i don't think the sonatas is too shabby either), 268 horses(0-60 its not that much better than the sonata(. of seconds), plus the sonata does 22mpg also), Auto climate control(one thing out of your list), sunroof(i believe sonata has that) , 6 speed auto(does it really matter??) whats next a 7 speed? its been stated by numerous articles that too many gears actually can hurt a cars perfomance and 4-5 is more than good.
Does the camry have any styling(still ugly)? handling performance? good brakes?(and these are elemantary things a car should be good at doing) uses struts(thats what you call a 4-5 years behind or cars like civic has), class leading space? std esc, traction, and abs on all models?, sufficient warranty, affordable price in any way? Wait a moment, it has none of those. Do i really care about a 6 speed auto compare to some good brakes?? lets get real now
Even though, I don't have any blue tooth device I can use, I use yahoo map only once a year, and rather not to have special bright head light that will make a police think I'm way over speeding than my actual driving speed is.
Am I behind the generation or what?
If you don't like what someone else says, just skip it and keep going. Please don't take the time to post to them you don't like it, it's not worth it and does nothing to contribute productively to this conversation. Just figuratively put the person on "ignore".
We need to get this conversation back on an even keel and get past all of this bickering. All of you need to help with this.
Thank you.
You'll have to explain to me exactly what you mean by "Technologically it (The Sonata) is 4-5 years behind the new Camry in capability and top-end features."
Where in the world did you get the 4-5 years? What is your formula for figuring years? Did you pull it out of your, uh, spreadsheet, out of thin air, or are you just repeating a remark you read on the Internet? I bet I know. You sit in the driver's seat, grip the steering wheel, look around and breathe in that new Camry aroma and say, "yep, yep, this car is 4-6 years ahead of the Sonata."
Back to Earth. In 6 months, the Sonata (or any car) could be packed with all the same gizmos as the Camry. But then, I don't know if I would want to buy it. European and Korean Sonatas already have many of those gizmos. Does that make them 4-6 years ahead of their American counterparts?
The "capabilty" part is something you'll REALLY have to explain! Acceleration? Top end? Playing chess? What is the Camry capable of doing that the Sonata isn't capable of until the year 2012? And are they things that really matter, or are they just more gizmos and toys?
Also, choe13, although there may be a low take rate on the Camry with Navigation, I would imagine otherwise, given that its now available on many more versions of the Camry -including the XLE 4, SE 4 5M, SE 4 5A, Hy...additionally, lots of folks will have Bluetooth- all XLE buyers, a majority of SE buyers, Hybrid buyers.
Styling is very subjective, and I find the Camry quite attractive, and certainly more proportional than the outgoing generation. How does the Camry trail the Sonata in handling? The text of the edmunds.com article would indicate otherwise:
"the logbooks gushed with admiration for the Camry's supple, quiet ride, uncharacteristically sporty handling and totally unexpected acceleration."
I guess the struts arent so bad after all?
~alpha
So, many of the reviews comments won't apply to other models.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Any comments on ride and handling would then also apply to most of the Camry line...but, nice assumption anyway....
~alpha
i'm not sure how its 4-5 years behind? in korea this car has navigation(will be avail soon) , it will have std xm radio by next year.
How can you say the new Camry is vanilla and the Sonata isn't?
I test drove one yesterday; believe me, this Camry is in a different league (IMO). I drive and love my 03 Accord, this car made me think 'trade.'
Once prices stabilize near inovice (that's where the Camcords traditionally sell at); these guys a going to kick a lot of b---.
those are called options. hyundai chose not to have those options on sonata at least not yet.
and i rarely see people drive loaded camry either.
Styling is subjective, IMO the SE looks real cool. Regarding handling, performance, brakes etc, most tests I have seen are praising these parameters in the Camry. Also, a 6 speed is going to optimize performance; most of todays new models are sporting these for good reason (BMW 3 Series, Passat, Fusion, Mazda6 etc.)
Don't mistake me, I do believe the Sonata is a great value (I have rented a few and like the car) and makes one think twice before paying more for other midsize cars; however, you have to respect others if they are making choices that are different from yours.
After all, these are options, if you don't like them don't buy them. Simple.
A funny thing happened on the way to the forum, and that was that the 2006 Sonata, while being a completely competent, even exceptional vehicle in its own right, is about one model-generation behind the competition. Like fixing the currency of one country to that of another, Hyundai has fixed its sights on the appropriate Japanese models, completely ignoring (and yet surpassing) those from the States. The Sonata has benchmarked the right vehicles, just the wrong generations of those vehicles. The current, seventh-generation Accord was all-new in model-year 2003, about the time this Sonata was gestating and being benchmarked against it — and the fifth-gen '02-'06 Camry.
We know from experience and insider information that Hyundai did, indeed, try to split the difference between those two in terms of the then soft-riding Camry and the more athletic Accord — and it has succeeded. In the case of the completely redesigned 2007 Camry, however, Toyota has taken a huge step ahead of everything else in this market segment with its chassis, powertrain, content, features and styling.
'...one model generation behind...' is about 4-5 years. This has nothing to do with me. This was stated by the testers and reviewers and editors here at Edmunds.
The Hyundai enthusiasts seem to be insulted that the Sonata was relegated to 3rd place when they were certain that the new Sonata had just passed the Camry and was the best midsized vehicle on the market. This comparo showed that everything is a moving target and just when you feel on top BLAM... the Altima comes out and tops even the Camry. Now the Sonata is 4th and then Honda is due out next year.
As I said several times this comparo only concerns the very top end models and the buyers for them. What it does show though is that the Sonata is not really in the mix for the buyer who wants to spend $30000 .. but the Azera is. All it shows is that these buyers likely will look at the Azera, Camry, Accord, Avalon, etc. but not the Sonata. The Sonata's very good but it's lacking some features and capabilities. It's like ( better than) the 2002 Camry.
It is also true that Xenon stands out at night. If your the police, which car would check the speed first? Bright Xenon light car coming, or car with regular yellowish light.
I saw many times Police pulled over BMWs at night when I work at night for 3 years. Are BMW owners are speeding more than others? Are police hate luxury BMW owners? Or, maybe the special blue light on BMWs have something to do with that?
No matter what, those cool lights catch peoples eyes, and police's too.
You could say " Stop over speeding then", but how many people drive 55 MPH at 55 MPH limit HWY? Semi behind you will run you over at that speed.
Also, blanket statements like "the Camry is 4, 5 years ahead of the Sonata" are too general. It all depends on the trim. There is NOTHING about the Camry CE and Camry LE that makes it a "generation ahead" of the Sonata GL and GLS. Not in power, mpg, room, features, or anything else. And we all know that the majority of Camrys that people buy are CE/LE, as is the case with Sonata GL/GLS.
The "a step ahead" argument is probably more appropriate for a fully loaded Camry V6 XLE v. fully loaded Sonata LX. After all, the Camry in that trim has more power, mpg, better stereo, navi, push button start and some other trinkets. But at nearly $9000 more, it better be a step ahead.
I saw many times Police pulled over BMWs at night when I work at night for 3 years. Are BMW owners are speeding more than others? Are police hate luxury BMW owners? Or, maybe the special blue light on BMWs have something to do with that?
No matter what, those cool lights catch peoples eyes, and police's too."
Your argument on zenons is totally baseless. Do you have any statistics that say that cars with Zenons get more tickets? Also, any stats that BMWs get more tickets? ANy stats that BMWs that get tickets get them because of zenons? Please provide a link.
I don't think anyone here is saying that a Camry with the same options costs the same as a Sonata. Not at all.
In one of your posts you mentioned that no one would buy a Sonata if it was priced for 31k with Nav etc. Does that mean that people buy Sonatas only beacuse they are cheaper? I don't think so; many buy them because they feel the car strikes a good balance between value and options that they want. Similarly, many Camry buyers think that the Camry srtikes the right balance for them - how can you find fault with that? By saying that they will get more tickets becasue they have zenons?
Are you comparing MSRPs/Inovice for both, or actual market price for a GLS versus MSRP of the Camry?
I've driven the new 2007 Camry, and it's a nice vehicle. I personally don't care for the exterior styling at all, but this is very subjective. The new styling will gain some new (read: a younger demographic) customers, whereas it may cause some of the Camry's historical demographics to reconsider.
In some ways, the new Camry is a bit of a paradox however. Toyota has added new technology everywhere, but on the other hand decontented some of the basics of the car. For example, exposed goose-neck trunk hinges, whereas the previous generation's were not, and absolutely no door-ding protection (i.e. belt-level trim) for its slab sides. After a few years in the supermarket parking wars, the new Camry is not going to look pretty. Of course, decontenting is the name of the game with most new models now. It seems to be a fact of life.
Anyone who copies (a.k.a. benchmarks) another product is always going to be lagging behind. This was certainly the case with the Japanese brands for many years when they were in that mode. But once they began to set standards that paradigm changed. Perhaps, the Koreans will start being free-thinkers in the future as well.
You still have not enlightened me as to what capabilities the Camry has that the Sonata does not have.
If we are talking about future cars, why not say that the Altima "will be" better in its interior soon, and the new Accord is due out late next year, so talking about the current one doesn't count and isn't fair, because it WILL have it. This is basically the logic you are using. This isn't a future cars discussion.
The person who said 4-5 years behind was referring to features...such things as navigation (introduced on Camry in 2002, Accord in 2003) will be on Sonata next year, right? This will be exactly 4-5 years behind the times on technological features. It doesn't make the Hyundai a bad car for not having them, just 4-5 years behind the Automakers that brought them out first. That's all he meant! Xm radio was available on the 2004 Accord, will be available on the 2007 Sonata...need I say the same thing again? I hope not...I'm just clarifying someone else's point. The car is several years behind in releasing technological features. (XM - 2004 vs. 2007; NAV - 2002 vs. 2007+?).
But at the $20,000 price point, I'd get a Sonata LX over a Camry 4 cyl. LE any day of the week.
I mean, talk about having more features... the Sonata LX has so many more features than the Camry LE that it's just in a different league.
One would be hard pressed to make the argument that the Camry I4 LE is a better car than the Sonata LX. But hundreds of people would continue to fork over $20,000 for a Camry LE, even though they could have bought a Sonata LX for the same price. Most of these people would never even consider or test drive a Sonata.
It's called brand loyalty and recognition, something that Hyundai has improved upon, but it still has a ways to go.
I would like to refute one point though: as the statement made about the Sonata being 4-5 years behind the Camry - that is not a fair assessment. I would say Backy is right on the money being around 18 month because Camry was released about 18 month after the Sonata did.
Edmunds said the Sonata benchmarked the outgoing Camry and current Accord, which is true since at the time of the Sonata release, little or no information was made about the new Camry, I don't even think many Toyota employees knew about the 07 Camry in '02 (when the Sonata was all but finalized). At the time, Toyota had just started selling its current model for a little bit of time. Edmunds did not explicitly indicate 4-5 years - that is entirely taken out of context.
And, hypotheically speaking, if the Sonata was, let's say 4-5 years behind the Camry, then the Sonata would not have better braking distance, quiter cabin, to name a few, ahead of its competitors.
Keep in mind the Camry pushed its release 6 months ahead, there was a reason to that.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
According to the new "chronological standard" bandied about lately, the above proves that the Camry LE is what? About 10 years behind the LX?
I bet that LE doesn't even have a standard 8 track tape deck. That makes it about 30 years behind in technology! :confuse:
Yeah, stuff like this is really getting us somewhere.
The short version of what you KNOW he is trying to say:
The Camry offers (and has offered) features (at a higher price) that the Sonata doesn't have, and some of the features have been out for as much as 5 years (NAV system, for Example), and STILL aren't offered by Hyundai. This doesn't make the Hyundai an inferior car, as it makes up for the lack of features with a low price.
Agree absolutely. This is the very point of the whole discussion. Edmunds comparo was only on the V6 XLE vs the top of the line trims in the other products. That's all this discussion has been about. I also agree absolutely that the Sonata is a killer buy in the lower trim levels.
The whole point of this from my pov was just to point out that this Gen6 camry has raised the bar - on the upper end trim models. It has nothing to do with the middle and lower end trims. The others seemingly don't want to accept that the top end trim of the Camry is significantly better than the Sonata's - and is very much in competition with the Azera.
That's the entire point of this discussion.