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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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That is exactly what is bothering you.
The camcord i can see cuz of relability under their belt(Even though alot of recalls and crap) would be a fine v6 choice if no price was involved, but the altima v6 over sonatas v6? that must be a joke cuz other than their slight engine edge , and stiffer suspension, it has nothing it can do better than the sonata. The new altima will be a better match though i'll admit.
The sonata aint no value sedan, every single expert test never mentions price as its selling point only the icing on the cake. If you drove it with an open mind you would understand the reason why as well
Just for better measure and going by your performance importance, you make it sound like the Sonata 3.3 is far below the top, then I guess you have not been in one yet. By the way, the Edmunds' comparsion, the Sonata placed second behind the Camry in 0-60 times, ahead of the Accord and Fusion. FYI - C+D tested Sonata running to the line in 6.5 secs, average across the board has the Sonata in the high 6s and low 7s.
"I was talking about low end rpm pull" So what is that good for if you aren't going anywhere? So if you have better low end rpm pull and I have a faster engine, which is better again?
You talk about the Accord vs the Sonata in the V6 comparison I did but what about the Altima, I notice no response, or the Camry, silence there, or the new Ford 3.5, UH OH Houston we have a problem. The Aura baseline V6 starts at 234hp, what about the Passat V6, or the V6 in the Legacy. There is a lot of V6s in this class that out perform the Sonata, so to say it that V6s don't get much better than the Sonata's" is an overstatement, right or wrong.
And by the way, check your sources. C&D got the Accord EX V6 to run to 60 in 5.9 seconds in their article on Modern Day Heroes. That's faster than your Sonata at 6.5 from C&D right?
The cabin space is good, the interior quality is OK, but I kinda like the Accord. The style is OK, yet the Altima is a little more pizazz. The Sonata and Accord sort of tie on exterior look, IMHO. The new Camry I like, yes a little funny nose, but overall neat look to it. The Camry steering may be so-so, I really have not driven it, and only know what I hear, and those people doing the road tests are not always right 100% of the time. I sat in a Fusion and Milan and like the style, with an above average interior. Will test drive that car and the Sonata and Honda the same day to see how they compare. Like the Sonata, the Fusion/Milan have to start out lower priced to be equal. Sorry, but in the real world, that's life. Doesn't make the car less worthy in style, ride, longevity or anything. It simply means resale value has been set by historical reliability and quality levels, and Accord, then Camry and Altima, set the standards. So yes, I think most people would, with an open mind, choose the others IF all the prices were equal.
-Loren
I think you meant to say 5.9 seconds? That comparison was done with the Honda Accord EX V6 6SPEED.
In the family sedan comparison test. The Accord and Sonata tied to 60mph at 6.6 seconds. Then strongly broke to the front to clear the quarter-mile in 15.1 seconds - The Sonata's 1/4 mile time was 15.3 seconds.
"The truth is, the Sonata's V6 is so smooth you can't detect it idling inside the cabin. What good would it do to make a smoother engine?"
You can't give praise to the Sonata's smoothness and silentness and then say it would be no good to be any smoother or more silent. You'd place the Sonata on a pedestal that could not be touched. If a car was AS smoothe and silent, they still wouldn't be better because they are just equal. By the way have you tested the new Camry v6, EXTREMELY smoothe at idle and in upper speeds which are easier to reach because of the amount of horses under the hood and the torque as well.
"V6's just don't get much better than the Sonata's" It's an untrue statement, that's all I am saying. The Accord engine rockets the car to almost sport sedan status, the Camry engine as well, the Altima engine is way ahead as way, the new GM engines. Maybe numbers should be added here:
Sonata: 235/226
Accord: 244/211
Camry: 268/248
Altima: 240/246
Ford Engine: 265/250
Aura: base V6: 224hp
optional V6: 252hp
Any questions?
As of today, no plans to make the 3.5 available in the Fusion but rumors are swirling. Aura base V6 actually is rated at 224, not 234.
Again, this class is not about POWER. Would you like to talk about Mustangs, 'Vette, etc?
Acutally, all of these "high-powered" family sedans (just doesn't sound right), they come at a price too
Thanks for the catch on the Aura. The top line V6 is 252 though.
-Loren
P.S. All the Indy 500 cars were powered by Honda.
Db @ idle: (1) Sonata 40.0 (2) Fusion 45.0 (3-tie) Accord 46.5 (3-tie) Camry 46.5
Db @ full throttle: (1) Camry 73.9 (2) Sonata 74.3 (3) Accord 74.7 (4) Fusion 77.1
Db @ 70mph cruise: (1) Sonata 69.0 (2-tie) Accord 70.0 (2-tie) Camry (2-tie) Fusion 70.0
To me, I like GM's new approach with the Aura. They give a good car with 224 which is no slowpoke and 252, and may give a 4-cyl at some point under that. That gives everyone what they want. I love driving. It is not just a task for me which is why I bought the Mazda6 and the Legacy was my second favorite choice. I also love styling. I can't wait for the new Mazda6 with the 3.5 265hp V6. But that is just me. I'd say anything now offered from 220 - 250 is more than reasonable. I think that the Camry took it over board this time around and we'll see what happens. At Camry prices, I'd just fork over the extra bucks and go for a G35 if I wanted real performance. I just don't understand it.
what in heavens are you trying to convey here?
I've stated clearly the sonatas engine tailors to a different driving style which is low end pull, why does the accords 0-60 or vtech have to compare to that?? its my opinion i like the low end pull, why try to be that way for?
you gotto take it easy
btw if you own a mazda6 then i guess it is fifth on the list on engines,since you never even mentioned it in your acclaimed v6 engine list, because that makes sense. Maybe you will get mad about that, but mazda should seriously be using their own engines than fords(which can't be trusted in engine making).
-Loren
This just shows how good that Camry engine really is. It generates much more horse and more torque than the Sonata and is just as quiet at speed. The only real noise increase is at idle. Good stuff Toyota. Now if it just didn't look like it does. They ripped off some of my good Mazda6's looks and added them to the Toyota mixing put and they didn't mix too good.
-Loren
Now about the looks. THis is a true story. I was pulled over on the Mass Pike doing 87 in a 65 real late one night, like 2am. The cop looked at my car. He said "I really like this car. Did it come with the wood inside like that?" I told him how I had to order the assorted wood pieces aftermarket (door trim pieces and a wooden medium burl shift knob which I secured to the shift staff by using the screws provided and the interior lining of a garden hose). Anyhow, he gave me a warning, told me to slow down, and I was on my way.
By the way, the G35 starts at $30,500 with a good load of features. Only thing I'd add would be the automatic tranny and a sunroof. Everything else is there standard. Check over on the website, you'll be very surprised.
The power issue is almost irrlevant in this class, especially when so many factors (i.e. safety, price, value, features, quality, reliablity) come before power.
I think gm's ecotec 4's are ok. They seem to be fuel efficient and technologically up to date, at least in 2.4L form. The only problem i find with this engine is the trashiness that it produces while under way. Gm needs needs to send the ecotec to finishing school, to become the great 4 that it can be.
Was that the engine Wards said is a good one
Wards was talking about the 2.0L supercharged ecotec 4, which is used in the cobalt SS, and Ion redline.
Db idle: (1) Sonata 40.0 (2) Fusion 45.0 (3-tie) Accord 46.5 (3-tie) Camry 46.5
Db full throttle: (1) Camry 73.9 (2) Sonata 74.3 (3) Accord 74.7 (4) Fusion 77.1
Db 70mph cruise: (1) Sonata 69.0 (2-tie) Accord 70.0 (2-tie) Camry (2-tie) Fusion 70.0
When did we go from engines to sound insulation?
this is one quiet car, as proven by the above stats
sonata is a value car huh
Definitely should be an option. I imagine (and know, by looking at sales) that I'm in the majority of midsize sedan buyers. I want "enough" power, but have no need for more than say, 150 in a 3,100 pound car. I have an old Accord with 130 horsepower, and it has never gotten me killed due to lack of power.
I have an inline-4 2006 Accord, which produces ample power, and is quite peppy and will give you a kick in the pants below, say, 70 MPH. Above that, power is adequate, if not scintillating.
When fill-up time comes, though, I'm more excited than I could ever be flooring it up an on-ramp in a V-6 version of my car, because I've gotten 28-30 MPG on my mixed route, and as high as 38 MPG (my last run to Gulf Shores, AL) on trips. When you're in college and on a part-time job's salary, great mileage is exciting, indeed.
Give me the high-economy engine. Shoot, my I-4 Accord of today makes the same horsepower as the V-6 Accord of 9 years ago...actually accelerates faster, and gets 5city/8hwy MPG higher than the old (1995-1997) V-6 Accord.
Value with a captial V. Not sure who has said otherwise...certianly not me. My needs led me to want the best 4-cylinder option (economy and best interior were my two buying needs at $21k. The Accord EX I-4 filled my need the best, and hence gave me the best value).
"I have not read any review that says the Lambda lacks in anything regarding the competitors V6's."
Here we go. You don't need to read it in a review, look at the numbers for hp and torque. You're going to say in a pure engine comparison, that the Lambda isn't lacking compared to the V6 in the Camry or Altima? I never said it does not compare. I am just saying that it isn't the best in its class and is outdone by several other entries. If Lambda is so good how come the Nissan VQ keeps walking away with the engine awards year after year after year? How come the reviews not only put the Camry as number one all the time but mention its engine as a significant reason why it is there. Sure the review will give the Sonata's engine a 7/10 but then will give the Camry a 10/10 as well as the Altima, and the Honda. Look at the numbers, they have no SUBJECTIVITY in them.
Sonata: 235/226
Accord: 244/211
Camry: 268/248
Altima: 240/246
Ford Engine: 265/250
Aura: base V6: 224hp
optional V6: 252hp
"safety, price, value, features, quality, reliablity"
What in the world do they have to do with a strictly engine comparison? I never discredited the Sonata, I actually said that anything between 220 - 250 is adequate for the class and Toyota went overboard with the Camry engine. However, in a strict engine comparison, how can you not give Toyota a significant advantage over the Sonata? DOES THE SONATA'S ENGINE, NOT CAR, REALLY COMPETE WITH THE TOYOTA'S? :mad:
I did notice some high cost of repairs listed on this site:
see on this page the Estimate Repair Costs
They appear to be higher than all the others in the same class of cars. Don't know why. Suspension and joints cost = ouch!
Kinda like the car, other than seeing the repair costs. Will interesting to see how the Fusion is, once that one is out a couple of years, and they have the data on that car.
-Loren
This new model though appears much more athletic, a MUCH better interior (finally, some symmetry! The '06 had a foul looking interior) and it appears as though it could actually handle.
The old model, sure, good, reliable transport. But I would have taken pretty much anything over it.
And BTW these are midsize vehicles, so just because hyundai didnt stuff a 300 hp V6 in the Sonata does that make it less competitive ?
Im sure just as honda fiddled with the 3.0L vtec to get more power hyundai can surely do the same with the 3.3L, but for what, it makes excellent power just as is.
And on another train of thought. How about the looks of say the Sonata vs. Azera and the Altima vs. Maxima ? I know it is a lot of personal preference, but it seems like I am kinda liking the less expensive, looks wise, in both cases. Aside of luxury items and size - only the looks, is what I am talking about.
They never mention about the engine really(cept the picture part where it states it is one of the best engines in the comparison), they do mention how well it is balanced between luxury and sport ride, it being the quietest on highway driving and braking(but mention it, like all of these things are sort of small potatoes in what consumers really want compared to a size of cupholders w)
Sorry to say but that is ridiculous, how has a cupholder size has any sort of important significance compared to some nice brakes in waht a midsize cars essentials should be. This is beyond me
Lstly where is the praise about the safety features? it is a generation behind since it benchmarked the camcord apparently to this writer(which is wrong when they benchmarked the audi a6 and lexus 330) yet this car can be the quietest on the highway compared to even a new camry. Doesn't make much sense how can a gen behind benchmark car be the quietest than a gen ahead car?
Second opions were the most common sense aspect of thsi comparison test and both sr editiors lean towards choosing the sonata as the smart buy still and sounds like it was the silent winner of the test considering all realistic factors
If anyone else knows a comparision of these three cars on other auto sites , please share.
-Loren
Interesting...I've actually noted one issue with the Sonata that I've heard time and time again, with many posters and testers, and that is that the seat/driving position is not particularly comfortable. That would kill a deal for me, except that I didn't notice it when I was behind the wheel. I didn't stay in it for long though, as the interior of the GLS I-4 model was not what I was looking for, simply put.
-Loren
Exactly!
-Loren
costs
Perhaps they are looking at AWD models? Anyway, lots of repair areas look expensive. I guess you have the bucks to pay, or get a really good extended warranty. In this case warranty does pay! One really nice looking car in that coupe.
Interesting how little is known of the new Accord. Big secret, and a well hidden test car. Wonder if it goes cab forward design too. Speaking of which, I liked the old 300M.
-Loren
BMW 330: 255HP6600 rpm, 220 ft-lbs2750 rpm, average torque= 0.080 ft-lbs/rpm
Sonata :235 HP6000rpm, 226 ft-lbs3500 rpm, average torque=0.065 ft-lbs/rpm
Camry: 268 HP6200 rpm, 248 ft-lbs4700 rpm, average torque = 0.053 ft-lbs/rpm
Accord: 244HP6224rpm, 211 ft-lbs5000 rpm, average torque = 0.041 ft-lbs/rpm
The very high average torque of BMW 330 makes it respond to the press of its acceleration pedal like a rabbit while both Camry and Accord are like a turtle. In other words, a BMW 330 driver feels the engine twice more powerful than when driving Accord V6. Sonata is more responsive than both Camry and Accord, but not near BMW. This is part of the reason that makes BMW a driving machine.
Let this particular topic close and let's move on to something applies more to the real-world.
Accord: 244/211
Camry: 268/248
Altima: 240/246
Ford Engine: 265/250
Aura: base V6: 224hp
Optional V6: 252hp
Are you suggesting that I pay $6K more for 20-30 more HP, when the engine is no smoother or refined? That just makes me laugh, because I almost got the I4.
I ended up getting the V6 because the I4 and V6 cost virtually the same, and the mileage was within 2-3mph.
You need to quit saying that I think the Sonata's V6 is the best. I don't know which is best, but my money goes on Accord, by a narrow margin. The Sonata V6 is designed for 300K miles, but I only need 150K, so I think I should be OK, don't you?