According to C/D, the interior of the 2007 Elantra will "frighten" its Japanese competitors
I haven't received my C/D yet. Were they referring to Japanese competitors such as the Civic and Mazda 3 and not the Camrys and Accords of the world?
I suppose there could be a rule that a "mid-sized sedan" has to offer an engine with more than 4 cylinders
There are smaller 4 cylinders suited for economy cars and there are larger ultra smooth, refined and torquey 4 cylinders suited for cars such as the Camry and Accord.
Suspension: Not sure what you mean by that.
Lets just say I would feel safer in a Jetta then a Elantra going down the road at 120 mph.
Fine with me if you want to call an Elantra a mid-size car. I'm not going to say the federal government is wrong. But is it really a competitor to a Camry, Accord and lets say a Sonata?
I must say you have me intrigued about this car though.
really all I was saying was that all the midsize sedans that were listed when this post was started were cars that were chosen on more criteria than just interior volume. this class, as represented by the list that is on the top of this forum meet the criteria that I mentioned (not that I think the ones I mention are gospel...).
it seems to me that a civic or mazda 3 would suit most families just fine. but the reason that edmunds chose to not include those were that there is a difference between economy cars and midsize family cars. granted, these differences are not exact, nor are they constant. but there is a difference between these classes.
even hyundai seems to agree. look on their website and look at the cars they compare themselves to. not the accord, camry, or malibu. but the cobalt, corolla and civic. ok, they made their car a little roomier in the cabin. it's still an econo box, and arguably a very good one. anti lock brakes is $1000 dollars extra. 15" wheels. 4 speed auto. and an interior that, to me, doesn't have the class of most of the other cars listed by edmunds for this discussion. remember the part of the SAT's where you have to choose the option that doesn't fit? well, my answer would be the elantra and apparently so is hyundai's.
i'm glad you're so happy with epa's arbitrary standards, but i think most people who are objective would see a difference in class between the sonata and elantra. although the sonata technically qualifies for being a large car, no one with any credibility would say that it should compete in the large car segment. and if this is your argument that the epa standards are what we should be going by, then i geuss you've limited yourself from talking about the sonata any more. fine, have it your way. you keep talking about the elantra without talking about the sonata, and I'll accept your "rule".
All I am saying is that a car like the Elantra, or the new 2007 Sentra (also a mid-sizer by EPA standards), may meet the needs of many buyers looking for a "mid-sized" car--if they can live without a V6 or a high-powered I4 (maybe the Sentra will offer a high-powered engine, as in past years). Consider that the reason Edmunds.com didn't include the Mazda3 and Civic sedans here is because they are compacts by the EPA classification. If the Mazda3 were bigger inside, I think it would easily qualify as a mid-sized sedan. It certainly has the quality and features (including nav), even a high-powered engine option. But then it would compete directly with the Mazda6.
BTW, look at HMA's web site and notice they have compared the new Elantra not to the Accord, Camry, or Malibu, but to the Acura TL. Why would they do that? Because the Elantra has more interior room than the TL. Also, the 2007 Elantra has ABS standard (not a $1000 option, which btw included a power moonroof and traction control on the 2006 models), and 16" alloys vs. 15-inchers. It is clear you haven't done your homework on the 2007 Elantra--it seems you are looking at the six-year-old design of the 2006 Elantra.
Also, several mid-sized sedans have a 4-speed automatic. Should we throw them out of this discussion then?
If you wish to not talk about the Sonata here, be my guest. But even though it has a large-car interior, it's an option for buyers of mid-sized sedans because they can get a car with more room than an Accord/Camry/Fusion et. al. but for less money. Not sure why you'd want to ignore that option, but that's your choice.
Car and Driver, October 2006, under "2007 New Cars, Nissan":
"We had a short drive in the new Altima and were impressed by the lack of torque steer, the sportier handling, and the CVT, which has been programmed to act more like a conventional automatic. If Nissan gets the pricing right, then the Altima has a chance to make inroads into its major competitors' sales."
Didn't read the whole thing, but they did say that even though their decibel instrument recorded 68 dba at 70 mph, which is average, to their ears they felt they hadn't been in a quieter car since testing a Rolls Royce.
If Honda made the Accord look like the TSX, no one would buy the Acura TL or TSX. The extra "style" of the Acuras, is what gets people to spend the extra $$$. If you want high style, you have to pay for it, unfortunately.
Or those who find the Accord to be too ugly can simply buy a non-Honda product, such as a Mazda6.
My point is that if I am looking at cars that cost around $20,000 or less, but don't want to buy an Accord because I don't like the looks of it...I am not likely to jump to the TSX.
The Acura TSX actually costs less than a V6 Accord does. You can probably get one for $23k. Of course, if $23k is out of your price range, I guess you have to chose something else. To each his own.
I guess it all depends what your spending limit is.
Ok, to get some interesting debate going here's my recent car purchase saga.
I was looking for a cheap and fuel efficient compact car to replace my current commute car. I test drove the Ford Fusion, Focus, Chevy Colbalt, Malibu, Mazda 3, Hyundai Sonata, elantra, Honda Accord, and a used Saturn SL. Pricewise, I could have a base 4-cy Fusion for $15K and a base 4-cy Sonata or Malibu for about the same, the Focus (fairly loaded) for $12K, the Mazda 3 for ~$15K, the Honda Civic for $17K. In terms of driving dynamics, the Mazda 3i handled the nicest, followed by the Sonata and Accord which drove very similarly IMO. For some reason, the Sonatas I saw on the lot didn't look nearly as appealing as some I've seen on the road, and I think I know why. The chrome strip that runs aroud the lower body of the Sonata really makes the car stand out! Without them the car suddenly drops a class or two in the style department. But the V-6 model I tested drove really nicely with great handling and comfy ride. If it weren't for the small turn offs here and there, I would've considered it a little more.
I really like the Fusion's styling inside and out and the price was fair. But it becomes expensive once you add ABS and side airbags (standard now on the 07). The Focus is probably the most economical to own being cheap and loaded. But I was a bit worried about the resale value and reliability. The Cobalt is nice but nothing about it stands out .
In the end, believe it or not we went with an Accord 4-cy Value Package manual this past weekend. I never would've imagined this myself. I thought for sure the Accord was outside our price range. I was there to test drive the new Civic but the dealer didn't have any left. Then I found out the Accords are being heavily discounted ($750 rebate). Bought one for $16,300, about $680 below invoice after rebate. It has all the safety and convenience features I wanted--ABS, side and curtain airbags, power everything (even trunk), AC, and keyless entry. And it gets 34 mpg. To us this is just the best overall value. But I still think the V-6 Sonata is a terrific car. I've had my eyes on the Sonata for years for its incredible value. With the chrome strip and the right color, this new Sonata is a beauty too! And you got the killer warranty on top of eveything else. I can totally see myself owning one someday.
Stylish looks has to be pretty high on your priority list, to pick the TSX over the V6 Accord. I guess that's why Honda sells many more Accords than TSX s. Of course the sales numbers would probably not be so different if you only counted the V6 Accords, instead of all Accords. ????
"Stylish looks has to be pretty high on your priority list, to pick the TSX over the V6 Accord"
The TSX is much more of a driver's car than the Accord V6. It purposely avoids the V6 to keep the weight off the front wheels for more balance handling. People who want a nimble, fun to drive car would pick the TSX over an Accord. The TSX is more of a niche vehicle not meant to sell in large numbers.
I agree with Joe97. A totally loaded Azera with Ultimate package lists just a hair over $30K. There's a $1K rebate and with no negotiating, anyone can get the dealer to drop $1K off of MSRP. There's your $28K price. Fitzmall has them for under $27K.
Features? I don't think the Jetta @ $28K comes close to the Azera Ultimate.
ok, so now you want to include the TL in this list...lol. this only points to the absurdity of using the single criteria of interior volume to determine what should be a midsize sedan in this comparo. hyundai is smart enough to know what cars the elantra is competing against, as do the vast majority of auto journalists and the people who put this list together on the edmunds forum. which is probably why the elantra has never been in a comparo in other mags/sites versus an accord or camry, and probably won't be for quite some time. and if a magazine were to do so, they would be laughed at.
first you say that the epa's definition should be what we should determine midsize. then, when you realize that the sonata would be thrown out of this comparo using the rules that you want to use, you get all huffy. funny stuff! look, i didn't paint myself in a corner...you did. if you want us to take what you say seriously, perhaps staying true to your own words would be a good start.
there are many ways to include other cars into this comparo if you really want to push arguments. but I think edmunds wanted to make this discussion manageable without too many choices. the things that make the cars that edmunds chose for this comparo similar is that they are a step above the economy cars, and aren't quite near lux either. it's pretty simple...most manufacturers have a good, better, and best formulation for where their cars fit. i don't think hyundai would be so short sighted as to design the new elantra so that it would compete too closely with the sonata. there is a difference in class between the two. just because you have convinced yourself that elantra fits the bill for your needs/ wants, doesn't mean it belongs in this comparo.
The TSX reccomends 91 Octane for ultimate performance, but the car will run on regular 87 at slightly diminished performance (if it is anything like other Honda products that ask for premium). It will retard the spark for slightly reduced performance when you run 87 or 89 in it.
... there is a difference in class between the two [Elantra and Sonata].
Yes, there is. Elantra is mid-sized, Sonata is full-sized. But at compact and mid-sized prices, respectively. The problem is, there are cars--these are two of them--that don't fit easily into conventional car categorization schemes. The EPA says the Sonata is full-sized. Based on this discussion, it looks like most people have no problem considering it a competitor in the "mid-sized sedan" class. The problem for some people seems to be when smaller cars get up-sized. A few years ago, the Accord was the size of a compact sedan by today's standards. When the Camry started, it too was compact-sized. The Mazda6 is barely mid-sized by the EPA classification. Lots of people are talking about the Jetta and TL in this discussion--they are smaller inside than the Elantra!
I have no problem seeing the 2007 Elantra as a mid-sized sedan where it counts to me--in room, comfort, and features. Power is not that important to me in a car. If you and others prefer to think of the Elantra as a compact, and the Jetta as mid-sized, that's fine with me. Life is full of shades of grey. Just because I like having another choice in cars with mid-sized interior room doesn't mean everyone likes it. It's not like I'm demanding that the Elantra be added to this discussion formally. It was a discussion point. The Elantra won't be added just because I think it should be, and the Sonata won't be thrown out just because Hyundai made it a little roomier than other cars it competes with.
As for who is getting huffy... well, it's not me. Kind of odd though that you have no problem discussing the Jetta in this discussion, but have a problem discussing the Elantra, which is a bigger car. Is that what you meant by keeping the discussion manageable without too many choices? Don't you think VW designed the Jetta so it doesn't compete too closely with the Passat--despite the fact they are based on the same platform?
See when you say Jetta has more amentities than any car under 28K - to me, amenities include items such as power rear sunshade, rain-sensing wipers, electroluminescent instrument cluster, and other items I would called amenities.
I don't think most people have a problem with the Elantra being discussed here.
Just because I some find aspects of the car having more in common with the economy car class doesn't mean I think it should be banned from discussion. Nothing wrong with some back and forth banner.
EPA measures by interior volume. Many car publications compare by exterior dimensions and/or price range. The people I know mostly start with price range, unless their prime motivation is hoping to impress other people.
I'm inclined to agree with backy. Given cars of similar exterior size, price, features and reliability, I'd go with the larger interior volume. That's assuming the aforementioned are "similar."
Heck a late 60's Rolls Royce Silver Shadow was considered a "compact" (or maybe mid-size, I forget) by EPA based upon interior volume. Nobody in their right mind would compare the Silver Shadow to an Elanta, Civic, Accord or Sonata.
Neither the Civic nor Elantra are "economy" car as someone has been calling them. They both have many standard features that are not usually available in economy cars. I think the poster was confusing "economy" with "compact." Maybe my age is showing, but economy car meant stripped-down car; no A/T, A/C, power windows, etc., just good gas milage. That's what defined an economy car, good gas milage. Not that long ago, the manufacturers only offered underpowered engines to obtain the good gas milage and couldn't or wouldn't offer extra features with those low power engines.
Gee Joe, the Jetta has all those features except for the electroluminescent instrument cluster.
Does the Azera offer the revolutionary DSG? What about German engineering?
Does the Azera offer a Navi system? What about "real" wood trim? What about Satellite radio? Xenon headlights? Heated washer nozzles? Tire-pressure monitor? Rear-obstacle-detection system? Why are you still reading this? Haven't you given up?
I think the poster was confusing "economy" with "compact". Maybe my age is showing, but economy car meant stripped-down car; no A/T, A/C, power windows, etc., just good gas mileage. That's what defined an economy car, good gas mileage.
Posters are confusing compact with economy with the Jetta. Not with the Civic. It's an economy car for pete sakes. Today's economy cars do offer more amenities and power. Doesn't mean they're no longer in the economy class.
I'm old enough to remember when a cassette player was something special.
German engineering, now how is possible for Hyundai to have german engineering??
When you load up the Jetta, specfically the GLI, and since most of the items are optional anyway, you are well into the $30K territory (MSRP), that's more than some of the full size sedans.
ConsumerGuide (the link you posted) lists the following:
"Also consider:
Ford Focus Honda Civic Mazda 3"
I don't have the split in front of me, but a good portion of the Jetta buyers take home the Value Edition or the 2.5 with min. options.
Good God! Enough with German engineering already. This is the 21st century, not post WW2. German engineering to me means stiff suspension, clearer road feel and crappy reliability. These characteristics are totally the opposite from what the Azera offers: boatish land yacht ride, decent reliability and unbeatable warranty.
"This is the 21st century, not post WW2. German engineering to me means stiff suspension, clearer road feel and crappy reliability."
Just like saying when one thinks of Acura, they think of transmissions falling out of the car. Or, when one thinks of Toyota, they think of oozing sludge, and so on.
Clear road feel and still suspensions are qualities I like in a car.
Another example of the problem with basing "mid-size" only on interior volume...
The Chevy malibu is a mid-size but the pontiac G6 is a compact (I'm guessing the pontiac must have a lower roof line). Meanwhile, the Malibu Maxx is a large car.
Isn't actual interior room more important than how large the car "appears" to be on the outside? What about cars like the XJS that have giant bodies and tiny interiors?
What is most interesting to me from your story is the $750 rebate on the Accord. That is the first time in my memory that any Honda has had a rebate--assuming this was a Honda-to-consumer (you) rebate.
Thanks Backy! Yeah, we bought it totally on a whim because of the rebate. FCOL, we paid almost exactly the same price for our new 02 Malibu. Have to say now I know what "refinement" means Not that we didn't love our Malibu or it was terribly crude, but you can definitely tell the difference in noise (and handling as well).
Well, the '02 Malibu wasn't exactly the creme-de-la-creme of the mid-sized class, was it? I think the new 2008 Malibu will be much more competitive. Handling-wise, it will have a long ways to go to match the Accord.
Regarding the rebate, I'm pretty sure it's a Honda to dealer rebate, rather than a direct-to-consumer one. But who cares as long as you can get the dealer to give it (at least part of it) to you. So far, I'm loving my Accord.
BTW, have you or other people here driven the Sonata? IMO, these two cars drive equally nice. I was struck most by how much the Sonata drove like a small car and how quiet and quick it was.
I've driven the Accord and Sonata. I prefer the Accord's handling, a little crisper than the Sonata's, although I find the Sonata's handling quite acceptable for a mid-sized car. I much prefer the Sonata's ride, which is less bumpy (I felt every little bump in the Accord) and quieter than the Accord's. The V6 Sonata was very quick--much quicker than I need with teen-aged drivers in the house!
Malibu needs to get a Jenny Craig makeover. It's too heavy. Even Cobalt weighs more than Accord/ Altima. Make the Malibu lighter, give it a more fun to drive 4-cyl engine, cut the fleet sales and boost warranty - that's all GM needs to do to get rid of 0% APR, employee pricing, cash rebates, etc. Oh! How about standard ABS as well?
As a frequent user of rental cars, I am wondering where Hertz et. al. will get their cars if everyone cuts back on sales to fleets--since fleet sales are so terrible according to many posters here. Ford is dropping the Taurus and Sable, which are big in fleets. So let's say GM stops selling its mid-sized cars to fleets. Hyundai should do the same, since it hurts resale value (per opinions expressed here). Maybe Toyota should cut back too--they don't want to risk harming their reputation by having too many cars in fleets. Chrysler should avoid putting the new Sebring into fleets, so it isn't seen as a "rental car."
Where are the mid-sized fleet cars going to come from???
Well, Honda sells about 1% to fleets. Toyota about 5%. GM about 25% now (used to be 30% or more until last year). Ford and Chrysler still over 30%. Not sure about Hyundai.
Jerry Flint, a Pulitzer Prize winning automotive columnist, calls fleet sales bad for retail customers. So do many others. I also learned from my own experience how bad resale value of a Chevy can be and I don't want to buy from manufacturers who depend heavily on fleet sales. I don't want the manufacturer to artificially depress the value of my vehicle by crowding the used-car market with excessive supplies. Now, I want to only go to those who care for retail consumers like me and hardly care for fleet sales.
My 4-cy Accord weighs only about 3000 lb, very close to my small compact Geo. Not sure about the Malibu's weight. I drove a 4 cy Malibu auto. It was noisy and felt underpowered. The engine revved to 4K just under normal acceleration! Having owned a V-6 Malibu (02), I was disappointed with the new Malibu (4-cy version).
Cobalt is also 3000 lb approximately... Chevy uses recycled iron to protect you, Honda uses airbags and design :-) A lighter vehicle gives you better MPG. Also, pushrod Chevy engines are much heavier than DOHC aluminium engines in Honda. So, you just pull more weight and burn more gas with a Chevy. I have been doing exactly this until I traded in my Chevy for a Honda. Again, personal opinion and you are free to disagree.
Then your best bet is to buy a mid-sized car that is sold in relatively low volume, such as the Mazda6, Mitsubishi Galant, or Subaru Legacy. There aren't many used Mazda6's around, or Galants or Legacys. On the other hand, there are TONS of used Accords, Camrys, Taurii, Malibus etc. around. Because hundreds of thousands of each of these cars is sold each year in the U.S. Do you think that just because a car is sold or leased to a private party, it will never be resold? Take a look at your local Classified section or one of the major Web used car selling services. You'll see tons and tons of Accords and Camrys for sale.
Cars like the Accord and Camry have high resale values because they have a long-term reputation for reliability and competence, not because they are not sold in huge quantities to fleets. Few Suzuki Veronas are sold to fleets, and its resale value is the pits. Why? Because it isn't very competitive in this class.
Yes, I guess what you are saying has lots of merits. Quality issue can't be ignored. But what I said was based on what I read about fleet sales - more used cars than potential owners can drive the resale value down. It's true that you can find lots of used Accords, but there are as many potential buyers. But used Malibus are coming from 2 sources, individual owners and fleets - so, there are too many of them compared to number of potential buyers. The 2nd source, fleet, definitely hurts. I am still planning to trade in my Protege for a Mazda6/ Altima/ Accord. And, I will test-drive Sonata - I'm seeing a "Sonata boom" in our area (Rochester-NY area where Hyundai has added its second dealer recently) and that's convincing me to take a test-drive. What about your area? Do you have "Sonata boom" in your locality as well?
"When you load up the Jetta, specifically the GLI, and since most of the items are optional anyway, you are well into the $30K territory (MSRP), that's more than some of the full size sedans."
I was thinking more of a loaded Jetta 2.0t. The initial point was your comments that a $28k mid-size car would have more amenities than a $28K Jetta. I think I have proved that was in error. Remember, just like most other cars, the Jetta is discounted too.
"I don't have the split in front of me, but a good portion of the Jetta buyers take home the Value Edition or the 2.5 with min. options"
Agreed. Of course the same can be said of mid-size cars.
Comments
I haven't received my C/D yet. Were they referring to Japanese competitors such as the Civic and Mazda 3 and not the Camrys and Accords of the world?
I suppose there could be a rule that a "mid-sized sedan" has to offer an engine with more than 4 cylinders
There are smaller 4 cylinders suited for economy cars and there are larger ultra smooth, refined and torquey 4 cylinders suited for cars such as the Camry and Accord.
Suspension: Not sure what you mean by that.
Lets just say I would feel safer in a Jetta then a Elantra going down the road at 120 mph.
Fine with me if you want to call an Elantra a mid-size car. I'm not going to say the federal government is wrong. But is it really a competitor to a Camry, Accord and lets say a Sonata?
I must say you have me intrigued about this car though.
it seems to me that a civic or mazda 3 would suit most families just fine. but the reason that edmunds chose to not include those were that there is a difference between economy cars and midsize family cars. granted, these differences are not exact, nor are they constant. but there is a difference between these classes.
even hyundai seems to agree. look on their website and look at the cars they compare themselves to. not the accord, camry, or malibu. but the cobalt, corolla and civic. ok, they made their car a little roomier in the cabin. it's still an econo box, and arguably a very good one. anti lock brakes is $1000 dollars extra. 15" wheels. 4 speed auto. and an interior that, to me, doesn't have the class of most of the other cars listed by edmunds for this discussion. remember the part of the SAT's where you have to choose the option that doesn't fit? well, my answer would be the elantra and apparently so is hyundai's.
i'm glad you're so happy with epa's arbitrary standards, but i think most people who are objective would see a difference in class between the sonata and elantra. although the sonata technically qualifies for being a large car, no one with any credibility would say that it should compete in the large car segment. and if this is your argument that the epa standards are what we should be going by, then i geuss you've limited yourself from talking about the sonata any more. fine, have it your way. you keep talking about the elantra without talking about the sonata, and I'll accept your "rule".
BTW, look at HMA's web site and notice they have compared the new Elantra not to the Accord, Camry, or Malibu, but to the Acura TL. Why would they do that? Because the Elantra has more interior room than the TL. Also, the 2007 Elantra has ABS standard (not a $1000 option, which btw included a power moonroof and traction control on the 2006 models), and 16" alloys vs. 15-inchers. It is clear you haven't done your homework on the 2007 Elantra--it seems you are looking at the six-year-old design of the 2006 Elantra.
Also, several mid-sized sedans have a 4-speed automatic. Should we throw them out of this discussion then?
If you wish to not talk about the Sonata here, be my guest. But even though it has a large-car interior, it's an option for buyers of mid-sized sedans because they can get a car with more room than an Accord/Camry/Fusion et. al. but for less money. Not sure why you'd want to ignore that option, but that's your choice.
"We had a short drive in the new Altima and were impressed by the lack of torque steer, the sportier handling, and the CVT, which has been programmed to act more like a conventional automatic. If Nissan gets the pricing right, then the Altima has a chance to make inroads into its major competitors' sales."
0-60: 6.2s
Didn't read the whole thing, but they did say that even though their decibel instrument recorded 68 dba at 70 mph, which is average, to their ears they felt they hadn't been in a quieter car since testing a Rolls Royce.
Mini compact: Under 85
Subcompact: 85 to 99
Compact: 100 to 109
Midsize: 110 to 119
Large: 120 or more
Any questions, comments, or complaints then write your Congressman! :P
Kudos to Hyundai! My next car 2007 Elantra or Sonata!
The market class system groups together cars that are similar from the car buyer's perspective.
Or those who find the Accord to be too ugly can simply buy a non-Honda product, such as a Mazda6.
I would pick the TSX over the Mazda6. Looks better, in my opinion.
Personally, looks don't matter to me. Beauty is only skin deep, as they say. I buy a car for what's under the skin. Quality is beautiful, in my eyes.
I guess it all depends what your spending limit is.
I was looking for a cheap and fuel efficient compact car to replace my current commute car. I test drove the Ford Fusion, Focus, Chevy Colbalt, Malibu, Mazda 3, Hyundai Sonata, elantra, Honda Accord, and a used Saturn SL. Pricewise, I could have a base 4-cy Fusion for $15K and a base 4-cy Sonata or Malibu for about the same, the Focus (fairly loaded) for $12K, the Mazda 3 for ~$15K, the Honda Civic for $17K. In terms of driving dynamics, the Mazda 3i handled the nicest, followed by the Sonata and Accord which drove very similarly IMO. For some reason, the Sonatas I saw on the lot didn't look nearly as appealing as some I've seen on the road, and I think I know why. The chrome strip that runs aroud the lower body of the Sonata really makes the car stand out! Without them the car suddenly drops a class or two in the style department. But the V-6 model I tested drove really nicely with great handling and comfy ride. If it weren't for the small turn offs here and there, I would've considered it a little more.
I really like the Fusion's styling inside and out and the price was fair. But it becomes expensive once you add ABS and side airbags (standard now on the 07). The Focus is probably the most economical to own being cheap and loaded. But I was a bit worried about the resale value and reliability. The Cobalt is nice but nothing about it stands out .
In the end, believe it or not we went with an Accord 4-cy Value Package manual this past weekend. I never would've imagined this myself. I thought for sure the Accord was outside our price range. I was there to test drive the new Civic but the dealer didn't have any left. Then I found out the Accords are being heavily discounted ($750 rebate). Bought one for $16,300, about $680 below invoice after rebate. It has all the safety and convenience features I wanted--ABS, side and curtain airbags, power everything (even trunk), AC, and keyless entry. And it gets 34 mpg. To us this is just the best overall value. But I still think the V-6 Sonata is a terrific car. I've had my eyes on the Sonata for years for its incredible value. With the chrome strip and the right color, this new Sonata is a beauty too! And you got the killer warranty on top of eveything else. I can totally see myself owning one someday.
The Sandman :confuse:
The TSX is much more of a driver's car than the Accord V6. It purposely avoids the V6 to keep the weight off the front wheels for more balance handling. People who want a nimble, fun to drive car would pick the TSX over an Accord. The TSX is more of a niche vehicle not meant to sell in large numbers.
Nah. The DSG is even more efficient than a manual transmission and peak torque starts at 1800 RPM and stays there till 5000 RPM.
Most V6 midsizers won't over take a Jetta 2.0t until higher speeds where all those horses show them selves.
C/D had a 0-60 time of 6.4 seconds for a Jetta GLI.
Features? I don't think the Jetta @ $28K comes close to the Azera Ultimate.
first you say that the epa's definition should be what we should determine midsize. then, when you realize that the sonata would be thrown out of this comparo using the rules that you want to use, you get all huffy. funny stuff! look, i didn't paint myself in a corner...you did. if you want us to take what you say seriously, perhaps staying true to your own words would be a good start.
there are many ways to include other cars into this comparo if you really want to push arguments. but I think edmunds wanted to make this discussion manageable without too many choices. the things that make the cars that edmunds chose for this comparo similar is that they are a step above the economy cars, and aren't quite near lux either. it's pretty simple...most manufacturers have a good, better, and best formulation for where their cars fit. i don't think hyundai would be so short sighted as to design the new elantra so that it would compete too closely with the sonata. there is a difference in class between the two. just because you have convinced yourself that elantra fits the bill for your needs/ wants, doesn't mean it belongs in this comparo.
I suggest you review all the features you would get in a loaded Jetta.
Features
Yes, there is. Elantra is mid-sized, Sonata is full-sized. But at compact and mid-sized prices, respectively. The problem is, there are cars--these are two of them--that don't fit easily into conventional car categorization schemes. The EPA says the Sonata is full-sized. Based on this discussion, it looks like most people have no problem considering it a competitor in the "mid-sized sedan" class. The problem for some people seems to be when smaller cars get up-sized. A few years ago, the Accord was the size of a compact sedan by today's standards. When the Camry started, it too was compact-sized. The Mazda6 is barely mid-sized by the EPA classification. Lots of people are talking about the Jetta and TL in this discussion--they are smaller inside than the Elantra!
I have no problem seeing the 2007 Elantra as a mid-sized sedan where it counts to me--in room, comfort, and features. Power is not that important to me in a car. If you and others prefer to think of the Elantra as a compact, and the Jetta as mid-sized, that's fine with me. Life is full of shades of grey. Just because I like having another choice in cars with mid-sized interior room doesn't mean everyone likes it. It's not like I'm demanding that the Elantra be added to this discussion formally. It was a discussion point. The Elantra won't be added just because I think it should be, and the Sonata won't be thrown out just because Hyundai made it a little roomier than other cars it competes with.
As for who is getting huffy... well, it's not me. Kind of odd though that you have no problem discussing the Jetta in this discussion, but have a problem discussing the Elantra, which is a bigger car. Is that what you meant by keeping the discussion manageable without too many choices? Don't you think VW designed the Jetta so it doesn't compete too closely with the Passat--despite the fact they are based on the same platform?
Just because I some find aspects of the car having more in common with the economy car class doesn't mean I think it should be banned from discussion. Nothing wrong with some back and forth banner.
I'm inclined to agree with backy. Given cars of similar exterior size, price, features and reliability, I'd go with the larger interior volume. That's assuming the aforementioned are "similar."
Heck a late 60's Rolls Royce Silver Shadow was considered a "compact" (or maybe mid-size, I forget) by EPA based upon interior volume. Nobody in their right mind would compare the Silver Shadow to an Elanta, Civic, Accord or Sonata.
Neither the Civic nor Elantra are "economy" car as someone has been calling them. They both have many standard features that are not usually available in economy cars. I think the poster was confusing "economy" with "compact." Maybe my age is showing, but economy car meant stripped-down car; no A/T, A/C, power windows, etc., just good gas milage. That's what defined an economy car, good gas milage. Not that long ago, the manufacturers only offered underpowered engines to obtain the good gas milage and couldn't or wouldn't offer extra features with those low power engines.
Does the Azera offer the revolutionary DSG? What about German engineering?
Does the Azera offer a Navi system?
What about "real" wood trim?
What about Satellite radio?
Xenon headlights?
Heated washer nozzles?
Tire-pressure monitor?
Rear-obstacle-detection system?
Why are you still reading this? Haven't you given up?
Posters are confusing compact with economy with the Jetta. Not with the Civic. It's an economy car for pete sakes. Today's economy cars do offer more amenities and power. Doesn't mean they're no longer in the economy class.
I'm old enough to remember when a cassette player was something special.
When you load up the Jetta, specfically the GLI, and since most of the items are optional anyway, you are well into the $30K territory (MSRP), that's more than some of the full size sedans.
ConsumerGuide (the link you posted) lists the following:
"Also consider:
Ford Focus
Honda Civic
Mazda 3"
I don't have the split in front of me, but a good portion of the Jetta buyers take home the Value Edition or the 2.5 with min. options.
Good God! Enough with German engineering already. This is the 21st century, not post WW2. German engineering to me means stiff suspension, clearer road feel and crappy reliability. These characteristics are totally the opposite from what the Azera offers: boatish land yacht ride, decent reliability and unbeatable warranty.
Apples to apples peepz...
Just like saying when one thinks of Acura, they think of transmissions falling out of the car. Or, when one thinks of Toyota, they think of oozing sludge, and so on.
Clear road feel and still suspensions are qualities I like in a car.
The Chevy malibu is a mid-size but the pontiac G6 is a compact (I'm guessing the pontiac must have a lower roof line). Meanwhile, the Malibu Maxx is a large car.
What about cars like the XJS that have giant bodies and tiny interiors?
Hope you enjoy your new Accord!
You can keep your German engineering; all I can see is that it tends to mean high maintenance costs and low (as a general statement) reliability.
BTW, have you or other people here driven the Sonata? IMO, these two cars drive equally nice. I was struck most by how much the Sonata drove like a small car and how quiet and quick it was.
Where are the mid-sized fleet cars going to come from???
Jerry Flint, a Pulitzer Prize winning automotive columnist, calls fleet sales bad for retail customers. So do many others. I also learned from my own experience how bad resale value of a Chevy can be and I don't want to buy from manufacturers who depend heavily on fleet sales. I don't want the manufacturer to artificially depress the value of my vehicle by crowding the used-car market with excessive supplies. Now, I want to only go to those who care for retail consumers like me and hardly care for fleet sales.
Cars like the Accord and Camry have high resale values because they have a long-term reputation for reliability and competence, not because they are not sold in huge quantities to fleets. Few Suzuki Veronas are sold to fleets, and its resale value is the pits. Why? Because it isn't very competitive in this class.
I was thinking more of a loaded Jetta 2.0t. The initial point was your comments that a $28k mid-size car would have more amenities than a $28K Jetta. I think I have proved that was in error. Remember, just like most other cars, the Jetta is discounted too.
"I don't have the split in front of me, but a good portion of the Jetta buyers take home the Value Edition or the 2.5 with min. options"
Agreed. Of course the same can be said of mid-size cars.