What is so significant??? How about something approaching a half million of them on the road - insignificant, I guess. And yes, in this class, the Camry V6 is the most economical and fastest - an admirable accomplishment - (although I suppose the new Altima may have something to say about that) - and the Hybrid, of course, that is almost a painless approach to 40 mpg, insignificant, I guess. The Camry is rightfully COY. I would be willing to wager that the 08 Accord will have enough innovative engineering in it to get this kind of award for that particular model year, as well. Competitive class these midsize sedans, a place where the "US" manufacturers have neither the expertise or money to do very well in? And even if the Camry is a sport sedan (which it and the others cars in this group aren't) 'for the unwashed masses' what does, in your mind, qualify as COY?
don't be suprised if that diesel is actually a diesel/electric hybrid (a logical combination) and that 40 mpg might actually be a little low. If anybody could succesfully do this it would be somebody like Honda!
DSC will specifically make sure your vehicle goes where you point the wheel where the physical limits of the tires and brakes are not being exceeded. It's as simple as that. You don't need a PHD in DSCology to know that is a good thing. Where the physical limits of the car on the surface are being exceeded, you are in the same bad boat as you were before DSC, so you don't have to worry something different will happen
I think this is the issue, I think the general public lacks a good mental model about how the system operates. I think some people feel the car will take control from them when they don't want it to, and I think some people have this idea that it evades laws of physics. Between the DSC and Pre-Safe, those little black boxes are going to have lots of info about how people drive.
One thing you need to understand is that up until the end of the 90s, MT spilt the COY into two contests. Import and Domestic. In some years, the domestics simply fielded extremely little by way of entries, which is part of the reason that MT combined the two. We all know that the domestics have historically been sloth-like in real redesigns.
(Ex -How long was the Taurus allowed to languish, leading to its demise? Sure, an interior and exterior refresh in Fall 99 for '00, but otherwise, nothing in terms of mechanicals or design from Fall '95 until the out of production date on October 27th, 2006. This was a groundbreaking car when introduced in '85, folks!)
And while I agree that the Ford Thunderbird wasn't a sales hit, if you check the internet, those who own them seem to be very emphatic owners. And simply because a car doesn't sell well, doesn't mean its deficient - take, for example, the Nissan Titan, which is a TREMENDOUS truck. But for reasons of loyalty, initial build issues, lack of HD models, no diesel, etc, it hasn't sold nearly to expectation.
I think some people feel the car will take control from them when they don't want it to then, perhaps you would like to take on an explanation of a test of the Chrysler 300 in the July 05 issue of C&D: tested car was the 300 Touring, 3.5 V6 and in the context of being generally lauded for its handling " a big car that feels good being big" - but ultimately downrated because of speed limitations in both skidpad and lane change tests, both tests a reasonable measure of any car's avoidance capabilites. The quote: "Blame it on a hyperinterventionist stability control system that apparently hates tire squeal and refuses to be shutoff" While I'll certainly grant you that the folks that test these cars may be a card or two short of a full deck, it sure seems like the 300 is a car that ultimately suffers due to the way its particular 'nannies' decide what that car should be capable of. It is, remember, an evenly weight distributed RWD sedan with some German suspension engineering and should logically blow the doors off things like Maximas/Avalons in the twisties - but no - the reason apparently being an overzealous computer programmer/corporate lawyer.
The biggest issue with MT COY is that only new or significantly changed models are eligible each year. The Fusion, Accord and Sonata were not eligible. Not everyone understands this and think it's a Best Car award and it's not.
Anybody who takes time to check out the MT COTY understands it's only for new or significantly changed cars, and it's more a measure of market significance vs. how great the car is.
Similarly, the C/D 10Best award is only for new or significantly changed cars, and for cars that won the award the previous year. Now THAT to me is more misleading than the COTY--calling 10 cars the "best" when they are only some of the cars available.
Similarly, the C/D 10Best award is only for new or significantly changed cars, and for cars that won the award the previous year. Now THAT to me is more misleading than the COTY--calling 10 cars the "best" when they are only some of the cars available.
Actually, the C/D criteria does make sense. They explained it like this:
If a car didn't make the 10 best list last year, and it hasn't been significantly changed, then there's no reason to think it would be a 10 best car this year. The only exception I can think of is if a car was #11 last year and one of the 10best drops off the list, but that's probably rare.
Here's a scenario: let's say Honda blows it with the '08 Accord and it's no longer best-in-class (possible, look what happened with the Civic). The Altima isn't eligible because it lost this year. The Camry isn't eligible--same reason. The Sonata, Fusion/Milan, Sebring, Aura, Legacy, etc.--none is eligible to replace the Accord. The only cars eligible would be those new for '08--maybe the Mazda6, and Malibu.
the Altima should be eligible and even a possible winner next year, the 07 model with the CVTs and now up to 270hp. The Accord, in whatever condition, 2008. The Aura is an 07 model as well, with the 3.6 and the German chassis may give the Altima a good run, largely because it is a new design at least in this country.
exactly what most American consumers want (in a midsize family sedan) true - and something that Toyota has done better over the years than any other car manufacturer, make well built cars that last seemingly forever, and make them almost Buick 'soft' - 'isolation' is what the American car buyer prefers if sales figures mean anything. Outside of the Supras (which will be making a comeback)and the new SE V6, I challenge you to name any car Toyota ever made that was considered 'sporty' or a 'performance car'?
C/D Ten Best,IMO, is a bit more confusing than the intent of the "Car of the Year". I enjoy C/D Ten Best and value their opinions, but they so heavily weight the sport equation, that certain markets get ignored. Every now and again you'll see a large car on the list, every now and then you'll see a compact on the list, but in general, they include one mid-sizer (the Accord, except the 4 or so times the Camry's won), one super frugal city car (Fit) a bunch of sports sedans and sports cars. That's cool, but a lot of readership doesn't have 30K to spend.
The MT COY seems straightforward - of all cars that are new for '07, which best meets the 4 criteria established. In this year's test, it was narrowly the Camry over the Cayman, which it tied in initial voting.
Neither is perfect, both should be considered, and I find both very interesting reads, though I appreciate MT's publication of reviews and basic stats of EACH contender.
The only cars eligible would be those new for '08--maybe the Mazda6, and Malibu.
What's so bad about that?
If were talking 10Best, then if they get the Mazda6 right on the '08 redesign, then there's your winner, since the current platform won the first year it was eligible. I highly doubt the Malibu would make it, but stranger things have happened.
I wouldn't doubt the '08 Accord will end up MTs COTY, whether or not it makes 10Best, unless they REALLY screw it up, but I doubt that. Plus, I don't know of any other '08 redesigns that would be "significant" enough, unless the Mazda6 REALLY hits a grand slam!
I know, wishful thinking...
I'm sure the '08 Accord will clean house, just as expected.
The '08 Accord would need to be really exceptional to win the COTY. It's a little early to make prognostications on that I think, who knows what it will be up against?
The Mazda6 could win the 10Best next year, but we'd never know if it really is the "best" because it won't have to compete with standouts in its class such as the Altima and Camry.
The '08 Accord could be great... or it could be another '01 Civic.
Seems to me this board provides more meaningful information to peruse than the mags, even if the info here is biased. You take in all the biases (even in the mags)and in the aggregate you can develop a pretty decent idea of the where a vehicle stands amongst it's peers.
the 6 probably in for a tough time - where do you suppose the money is coming from to develop some badly needed new powertrains etc. - not from FoMoCo, they are too busy paying employees not to work! Wishful thinking, I agree.
Given the lull in new arrivals, I'm betting the new Mini wins. It's hot, it's a massive improvement in just about every way, and it's going to be a sweet ride.
The Mazda6 could win the 10Best next year, but we'd never know if it really is the "best" because it won't have to compete with standouts in its class such as the Altima and Camry.
Yes we would. If the Camry and Altima were THAT good, they would've won over the (5-year old) Accord, and made them eligible for '08.
Besides, the "best" isn't solely determined by a car mag. They vote what THEY like, which could be totally different from what you or I prefer.
The last Celica GT-S was pretty damn sporty, revvy, and a tremendous handler for an FWD vehicle. Also, Toyota actually had a bunch of sport variants in the 80s, including the kickin' Corolla FX16 GT-S which debuted in 1986 (reviewed in C/D in the June issue of that year, IIRC), RWD Corolla coupes that are now favorites in the drifting crowds. And today, the Scion tC S/C TRD may not be the sportiest car ever, but Road and Track featured it as one of its 12 "Best Cars Under 30 grand", which was primarily a list of sports offerings. http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_id=4191
Up until now I have followed this thread with no desire to intervene. It has been very entertaining but now this stability control issue has prompted me to chime in. As I see it it comes to this.. should the driver have complete vehicle control, or lack of, up to and including the point of impact relying totally on their perceived driving prowness. Most,if not all drivers think they can adequately take/keep control in all situations. They are wrong of course. So, if the vehicle via stability control intervenes and turns a bad or terminal situation into something better or even a non issue except for the bad smell coming from the drivers trousers..great!!! I am personally all for it (stability control)and will not buy a new vehicle without it. With regard to the Car&Driver statements I have subscribed to the magazine for decades and their need for speed and ultimate performance in all areas is legendary. It does not surprise me they would weep over a few mph less in a lane change test or a few less g lateral force on a skid pad. Is stability control better in daily use? Say you make an abrupt lane change at 72 mph on the ragged edge of vehicle/driver/road condition limitations and overcorrect or the same move with stability control engaged and an average joe who doesn't even know how close he came to disaster but lives another day, yeah I'll take that electronic nanny.
and believe or not I have no problem with anything you are saying here, that overall the control you sacrifice with systems like this is probably worth it - my only issue is that most buyers of systems like this think somehow it is improving a car's dynamics and will take this to mean that their car so equipped is somehow bulletproof, leading to even more reliance on these 'nannies' and consequently bad driving habits and techniques. Overall, I do believe this is a potentially dangerous technology that probably will save some lives as proponents suggest - if that makes any sense at all...
"my only issue is that most buyers of systems like this think somehow it is improving a car's dynamics and will take this to mean that their car so equipped is somehow bulletproof, leading to even more reliance on these 'nannies' and consequently bad driving habits and techniques."
As I said before this is a false concern. Maybe it could have saved three kids who totaled their cars whose case didn't have DSC. I don't know anybody who thinks they have the freedom to drive in the worse way possible due to airbags, seatbelts, DRLs, ABS, crumple zones and other advances. These people will drive like this with or without electronic nannies. Except without the nannies they are more at risk to themselves and their fellow drivers.
Well, that would be where we disagree, having personally experienced that 72mph abrupt lane change that targetttuning is talking about. If a Chryler 300 had been in front of me, I would have run right up his tailpipe because I had the accelerator floored, and his car would have been 'braking' with no brake lights. And it would also be those kids that usually think that they are all 'great drivers' and would continually push a car to its ESC prescribed limits 'just for the fun of it', and develop that reliance on a computer to 'correct' bad habits.
I cannot see where an application of yet more power would be beneficial in my hypothetical 72 mph lane change senario. Keep in mind this driver might already be at the practical limit of his/her ability or of the car. Additionally, you probably would not see the need to accelerate either only swiftly alter your course. In any case no one has actually stated how much all the braking imposed by stability control would actually slow the car. It may be very little and it all occurs in milliseconds so the episode may be over before your car could gain any appreciable speed or enough to run over that Chrysler in front of you.
cannot see where an application of yet more power would be beneficial well let me turn on the lights - about a year ago, driving on a busy city fwy, left lane at about 70mph. Notice a backup approaching on my right at an upcoming entrance ramp. somebody stopped at the end and whoever it was that was quite angry at this guy, decided to not only pull out from behind him, but also merge into 60-70 mph heavy traffic at maybe 30-40! Except that he didn't stop there - decided to continue on over to the far left lane where I was. My reaction was to simulutaneously swerve left onto the gravelly paved shoulder while hitting my accelerator HARD. Kicked up a bunch of dirt and fishtailed slightly - got around him because I was driving a car with a lot of power, had a little time to prepare myself for the problem, and probably also because I don't have an sort of stability system on it. Doing maybe 100 after I got around him before my pulse returned to normal and I could 'shut it down'. And no, had I been in that Chrysler 300 that should/would have been shutting it down 'automatically' on the shoulder I would likely have been rear ended as 5 other drivers were! There are times, admittedly rare, that an aggressive approach may also be the 'correct' one - something that any ESC system worth a darn would have difficulty 'understanding'. IMO, power is a very underestimated safety feature - the ability to get out of somebody's way! BTW, in this specific situation, I think that most ESC systems will brake only as much as required for the vehicle to 'level' the swerve i.e. preventing a spin but would also slow throttle and steering responses as well thereby 'keeping' the driver from getting into further trouble. A sensation of the car 'going dead' also something I have experienced in a Sonata.
"And it would also be those kids that usually think that they are all 'great drivers' and would continually push a car to its ESC prescribed limits 'just for the fun of it', and develop that reliance on a computer to 'correct' bad habits."
That is my point, the kids don't need DSC to push the car, they are pushing the car without it. At least with DSC there is a prayer that they might not get into a crash. No thanks, I'll take my changes with DSC over non-DSC anyday. For every one situation you think you are better off without it, there are one hundred that it could save your hide.
In your situation the DSC would have prevented you from fishtailing. As long as your tires have traction you are golden. However going 72 and hitting an icy patch of black ice, I would read about you in the obit. Nothing on the face of the earth except for the Lords grace would be able to help you.
You cannot beat or lose with DSC, if you are gonna crash your car you are gonna crash, but in traction situations it will save your butt.
kd- you didn't really read what I said, the luck that I had somehow avoiding this guy was because I was able to accelerate around him aggressively something I don't believe and DSC is going to let me do. DSC is not something that is only hooked up to multiple channel brake systems, it can and will also control throttle and steering responses and even tranny gear selections.
I would have run right up his tailpipe because I had the accelerator floored, and his car would have been 'braking' with no brake lights.
I bet the overall deceleration from the ESC turning on is miniscule. Also, how do you deal every day with those people in front of you who release the gas pedal, thereby 'braking with no brake lights'? That's probably a bigger effect on the car speed than the ESC.
they are, indeed, 'pushing' the car with it or without it, the only difference is that they are not learning to drive with that 'nanny' protecting them. And then they become as old as I am, they don't take any perverse pleasure out of 'pushing' it anymore and they still don't know how to drive! Which is why I worry about these nannies.
"kd- you didn't really read what I said, the luck that I had somehow avoiding this guy was because I was able to accelerate around him aggressively something I don't believe and DSC is going "
cap - I read what you said and am not arguing. DSC will let you go full throttle out of a situation. Even flooring it at 80. If you fishtail and have traction the DSC will straighten you out and you will move forward with control. If you floor it and lose traction, it really doesn't matter does it?
I guess that is the difference between the glass half empty and half full. I worry there is no nanny protecting my kids, especially with their four friends who totalled cars. You're worried about them taking unnecessary risks with the nanny. I'm not worried about the latter because I don't think the it matters, nanny or not the kids will do what they want. I'd rather have electronic intervention in place than not.
DSC will let you go full throttle out of a situation. not in the Sonata I drove, as I said a sensation that the car goes 'dead', unresponsive to almost any inputs (including throttle) except I think it would have allowed me to turn up the stereo If your car is stability control equipped - why not try it in an appropriate area- then you will know what to expect if and when you are faced with something like I was?
"If your car is stability control equipped - why not try it in an appropriate area- then you will know what to expect if and when you are faced with something like I was?"
That's why I suggest trying a BMW to see how a DSC type function should be implemented. (I know from where I speak). The odds are stacked against you making sudden emergency maneuvers without DSC. I've seen accidents (on COPs) where a guy not wearing a seatbelt was thrown clear of the car without a scratch going over 100. Is that a reasonable happenstance to believe 100% of the time? I wouldn't bet my life on it and consequently I'll wear seatbelts basing this on the odds of survival, rather then odds of being thrown free.
a BMW would be a bad example - those cars with much higher handling limits than I would personally be able to handle, and correspondingly higher intervention levels on the BMW stability control systems. And though I don't know specifically about the 3s, the 5s have a setting thru that nasty 'i drive' thing that allows you to set it where you want it. An ideal compromise. Would suggest to you that this is so simply because BMW owners expect a high degree of capabilities and the mfgr knows that.
you should look at a BMW to find out how a whole lot of things SHOULD be implemented - those Germans not ones to be letting grass grow under their feet....
I think most over-the-counter midsized cars fall into what I call the "One good swerve" category. That is, driving down the freeway and the ladder falls off the truck in front of the car, and the driver swerves to miss it. Thats all well and good but now the car is aimed at the k-barrier. The next swerve is more transient response than the shocks can cope with and the car begins to oscillate. The driver is now wrestling with the car to keep it oriented.
At this point the car is VERY SENSITVE to inputs, lifting off the gas will likely spin the car, over correcting will spin the car, the car still might not be facing the right direction.
This is where DSC can help most drivers of most cars. Individually braking a wheel can balance traction to keep the car on the path the driver wants. 10 years of autocross and HPDEs have taught me to compensate (although it still makes all the hair on the back of my neck stand up), but I think this system will help a lot of drivers.
LOL. I've seen them for rent sporadically in specialty rentals on both coasts. But if all you have is a local local Rent-A-Wreck you probably will not find to many BMWs for rent.
I thought the whole ESC thing was supposed to slow "one wheel", not the entire car, in order to keep the car on track with where the driver was trying to go.
If people drive an ESC equipped car the same as they would any other car, the ESC can help. If they push the car more than they would otherwise or beyond reason, the ESC probably won't help.
Wait.... Glad that's over. Some idiot just tried to merge into my lane while I was typing this on my laptop, had the coffee cup almost to my mouth, cigarette in left hand and cell phone between my shoulder and ear. That stupid idiot. ESC wouldn't help him with the type of lane change he just performed by gunning the gas.
ESC works with traction control, which uses ABS. ESC will cut the engine if necessary. Without ESC you risk understeer or skid or with RWD oversteer and tailspin. Assuming there is some traction, and this is important, ESC will not let you exceed the limitations of the vehicle and surface assuming there is some control to the vehicle (not on black ice for example). This control happens in the blink of an eye before you can even think about it. Of course if you want to play the odds you plant your foot on the gas and take your chances. ESC will not compensate for rabid stupidity, but assuming you drive the car normally it will do its' job.
One of the prereqs for ABS is 4 channel ABS with EBD vs 3 channel. 3 channel ABS controls both rear wheels as a unit, nullifying the effect of controlling wheel individually. Sorry if I am posting things you already know, it's just a general comment to your post.
Wait.... Glad that's over. Some idiot just tried to merge into my lane while I was typing this on my laptop, had the coffee cup almost to my mouth, cigarette in left hand and cell phone between my shoulder and ear. That stupid idiot. ESC wouldn't help him with the type of lane change he just performed by gunning the gas.
I love this, and it brings this point to mind. ABS, TCS, Airbags, and ESC are all great advances in car safety. But nothing will make the driver smarter. For all of you idiots talking on cell phones (especially the one who rear-ended my wife), if it's not a "Life or Death" call, SHUT UP, AND DRIVE.
Not to split hairs, but its not really fair to count sales from two vehicles against one. I mean the Pilot competes with the Highlander and it outsells it by a solid margin. The 4 runner is a totally different vehicle and is marketed by Toyota as such. Honda has no such equivalent vehicle.
Its still surprising that Prius sales are down considering all the noise about it. To some degree, blame it on gas prices and the tax credits. Discounts of around $2,000 can now be had in my locale and there's plenty of inventory.
As far as the 2008 Accord, it will be a good vehicle. I expect even better gas mileage from its 4 cylinder engine and very smooth automatic. Perhaps 1 to 3 in city/highway. Honda does not typically increase hp on the 4 that much, if at all. The Six cylinger will have a bump up I bet since Honda is now getting 300 hp on its sixes.
PS I wrote those last two posts that you responded and others responded. Not sure why it posted as "unknown." Anyway, my one cent is added. See you guys in a month and Happy Holidays.
the 6 probably in for a tough time - where do you suppose the money is coming from to develop some badly needed new powertrains etc. - not from FoMoCo, they are too busy paying employees not to work! Wishful thinking, I agree.
keep in mind, mazda is one of ford's most profitable lines. although most drivers in N America seem to prefer utilitarian type cars, there is a significant market (particularly those who are younger at heart) who like cars that handle well.
also, recent history would suggest that mazda is not short of seed money to develop new cars. mazdaspeed6, mx-5 hardtop, mazda5, mazdaspeed3, cx-7 and cx-9 have all come out in the last few years. mazda's cars continue to get very good press and I think there's a good chance that sales at mazda will continue to climb, particularly if the new 6 can make some significant improvements. while ford has been languishing in the US, mazda has been doing well to focus it's marketing and design. with new engines and transmissions already in use, it won't take much for mazda to take the 6 to the next level. of course I would add that it's not entirely necessary since the 6 is a great car already :shades:
For all of you idiots talking on cell phones (especially the one who rear-ended my wife), if it's not a "Life or Death" call, SHUT UP, AND DRIVE.
What if I'm talking on my cell phone thru a Bluetooth connection thru my stereo - handsfree of course? Can I still be on my call? I forward my office phone to my cell when I leave for lunch or appointments etc. Typically not a life or death situation (usually).
Most cars will have this feature soon.
Maybe the people who are 'on' their phone that don't seem to be talking to anyone (wanting to look like they're not a lonely person?) won't like this feature, but I do.
Comments
Competitive class these midsize sedans, a place where the "US" manufacturers have neither the expertise or money to do very well in?
And even if the Camry is a sport sedan (which it and the others cars in this group aren't) 'for the unwashed masses' what does, in your mind, qualify as COY?
I think this is the issue, I think the general public lacks a good mental model about how the system operates. I think some people feel the car will take control from them when they don't want it to, and I think some people have this idea that it evades laws of physics.
Between the DSC and Pre-Safe, those little black boxes are going to have lots of info about how people drive.
(Ex -How long was the Taurus allowed to languish, leading to its demise? Sure, an interior and exterior refresh in Fall 99 for '00, but otherwise, nothing in terms of mechanicals or design from Fall '95 until the out of production date on October 27th, 2006. This was a groundbreaking car when introduced in '85, folks!)
And while I agree that the Ford Thunderbird wasn't a sales hit, if you check the internet, those who own them seem to be very emphatic owners. And simply because a car doesn't sell well, doesn't mean its deficient - take, for example, the Nissan Titan, which is a TREMENDOUS truck. But for reasons of loyalty, initial build issues, lack of HD models, no diesel, etc, it hasn't sold nearly to expectation.
~alpha
then, perhaps you would like to take on an explanation of a test of the Chrysler 300 in the July 05 issue of C&D:
tested car was the 300 Touring, 3.5 V6 and in the context of being generally lauded for its handling " a big car that feels good being big" - but ultimately downrated because of speed limitations in both skidpad and lane change tests, both tests a reasonable measure of any car's avoidance capabilites. The quote: "Blame it on a hyperinterventionist stability control system that apparently hates tire squeal and refuses to be shutoff" While I'll certainly grant you that the folks that test these cars may be a card or two short of a full deck, it sure seems like the 300 is a car that ultimately suffers due to the way its particular 'nannies' decide what that car should be capable of. It is, remember, an evenly weight distributed RWD sedan with some German suspension engineering and should logically blow the doors off things like Maximas/Avalons in the twisties - but no - the reason apparently being an overzealous computer programmer/corporate lawyer.
Similarly, the C/D 10Best award is only for new or significantly changed cars, and for cars that won the award the previous year. Now THAT to me is more misleading than the COTY--calling 10 cars the "best" when they are only some of the cars available.
Actually, the C/D criteria does make sense. They explained it like this:
If a car didn't make the 10 best list last year, and it hasn't been significantly changed, then there's no reason to think it would be a 10 best car this year. The only exception I can think of is if a car was #11 last year and one of the 10best drops off the list, but that's probably rare.
true - and something that Toyota has done better over the years than any other car manufacturer, make well built cars that last seemingly forever, and make them almost Buick 'soft' - 'isolation' is what the American car buyer prefers if sales figures mean anything. Outside of the Supras (which will be making a comeback)and the new SE V6, I challenge you to name any car Toyota ever made that was considered 'sporty' or a 'performance car'?
The MT COY seems straightforward - of all cars that are new for '07, which best meets the 4 criteria established. In this year's test, it was narrowly the Camry over the Cayman, which it tied in initial voting.
Neither is perfect, both should be considered, and I find both very interesting reads, though I appreciate MT's publication of reviews and basic stats of EACH contender.
~alpha
What's so bad about that?
If were talking 10Best, then if they get the Mazda6 right on the '08 redesign, then there's your winner, since the current platform won the first year it was eligible. I highly doubt the Malibu would make it, but stranger things have happened.
I wouldn't doubt the '08 Accord will end up MTs COTY, whether or not it makes 10Best, unless they REALLY screw it up, but I doubt that. Plus, I don't know of any other '08 redesigns that would be "significant" enough, unless the Mazda6 REALLY hits a grand slam!
I know, wishful thinking...
I'm sure the '08 Accord will clean house, just as expected.
The Mazda6 could win the 10Best next year, but we'd never know if it really is the "best" because it won't have to compete with standouts in its class such as the Altima and Camry.
The '08 Accord could be great... or it could be another '01 Civic.
Yes we would. If the Camry and Altima were THAT good, they would've won over the (5-year old) Accord, and made them eligible for '08.
Besides, the "best" isn't solely determined by a car mag. They vote what THEY like, which could be totally different from what you or I prefer.
Finally, http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=14&article_id=4357
Sorry to get OT, but I think thats a fairly decent list of credibly sporty cars from Toyota.
~alpha
As I said before this is a false concern. Maybe it could have saved three kids who totaled their cars whose case didn't have DSC. I don't know anybody who thinks they have the freedom to drive in the worse way possible due to airbags, seatbelts, DRLs, ABS, crumple zones and other advances. These people will drive like this with or without electronic nannies. Except without the nannies they are more at risk to themselves and their fellow drivers.
And it would also be those kids that usually think that they are all 'great drivers' and would continually push a car to its ESC prescribed limits 'just for the fun of it', and develop that reliance on a computer to 'correct' bad habits.
well let me turn on the lights - about a year ago, driving on a busy city fwy, left lane at about 70mph. Notice a backup approaching on my right at an upcoming entrance ramp.
somebody stopped at the end and whoever it was that was quite angry at this guy, decided to not only pull out from behind him, but also merge into 60-70 mph heavy traffic at maybe 30-40! Except that he didn't stop there - decided to continue on over to the far left lane where I was. My reaction was to simulutaneously swerve left onto the gravelly paved shoulder while hitting my accelerator HARD. Kicked up a bunch of dirt and fishtailed slightly - got around him because I was driving a car with a lot of power, had a little time to prepare myself for the problem, and probably also because I don't have an sort of stability system on it. Doing maybe 100 after I got around him before my pulse returned to normal and I could 'shut it down'. And no, had I been in that Chrysler 300 that should/would have been shutting it down 'automatically' on the shoulder I would likely have been rear ended as 5 other drivers were!
There are times, admittedly rare, that an aggressive approach may also be the 'correct' one - something that any ESC system worth a darn would have difficulty 'understanding'. IMO, power is a very underestimated safety feature - the ability to get out of somebody's way!
BTW, in this specific situation, I think that most ESC systems will brake only as much as required for the vehicle to 'level' the swerve i.e. preventing a spin but would also slow throttle and steering responses as well thereby 'keeping' the driver from getting into further trouble. A sensation of the car 'going dead' also something I have experienced in a Sonata.
That is my point, the kids don't need DSC to push the car, they are pushing the car without it. At least with DSC there is a prayer that they might not get into a crash. No thanks, I'll take my changes with DSC over non-DSC anyday. For every one situation you think you are better off without it, there are one hundred that it could save your hide.
You cannot beat or lose with DSC, if you are gonna crash your car you are gonna crash, but in traction situations it will save your butt.
you didn't really read what I said, the luck that I had somehow avoiding this guy was because I was able to accelerate around him aggressively something I don't believe and DSC is going to let me do. DSC is not something that is only hooked up to multiple channel brake systems, it can and will also control throttle and steering responses and even tranny gear selections.
I bet the overall deceleration from the ESC turning on is miniscule. Also, how do you deal every day with those people in front of you who release the gas pedal, thereby 'braking with no brake lights'? That's probably a bigger effect on the car speed than the ESC.
you didn't really read what I said, the luck that I had somehow avoiding this guy was because I was able to accelerate around him aggressively something I don't believe and DSC is going "
cap - I read what you said and am not arguing. DSC will let you go full throttle out of a situation. Even flooring it at 80. If you fishtail and have traction the DSC will straighten you out and you will move forward with control. If you floor it and lose traction, it really doesn't matter does it?
I guess that is the difference between the glass half empty and half full. I worry there is no nanny protecting my kids, especially with their four friends who totalled cars. You're worried about them taking unnecessary risks with the nanny. I'm not worried about the latter because I don't think the it matters, nanny or not the kids will do what they want. I'd rather have electronic intervention in place than not.
BTW. Rent a BMW 325 or 330 and play with it.
not in the Sonata I drove, as I said a sensation that the car goes 'dead', unresponsive to almost any inputs (including throttle) except I think it would have allowed me to turn up the stereo
That's why I suggest trying a BMW to see how a DSC type function should be implemented. (I know from where I speak). The odds are stacked against you making sudden emergency maneuvers without DSC. I've seen accidents (on COPs) where a guy not wearing a seatbelt was thrown clear of the car without a scratch going over 100. Is that a reasonable happenstance to believe 100% of the time? I wouldn't bet my life on it and consequently I'll wear seatbelts basing this on the odds of survival, rather then odds of being thrown free.
At this point the car is VERY SENSITVE to inputs, lifting off the gas will likely spin the car, over correcting will spin the car, the car still might not be facing the right direction.
This is where DSC can help most drivers of most cars. Individually braking a wheel can balance traction to keep the car on the path the driver wants. 10 years of autocross and HPDEs have taught me to compensate (although it still makes all the hair on the back of my neck stand up), but I think this system will help a lot of drivers.
If you live in California:
http://www.bhrentacar.com/
Just as an aside, maybe your post indicates "you-pay-for-what-you-get" in the Sonota has something to it.
If people drive an ESC equipped car the same as they would any other car, the ESC can help. If they push the car more than they would otherwise or beyond reason, the ESC probably won't help.
Wait.... Glad that's over. Some idiot just tried to merge into my lane while I was typing this on my laptop, had the coffee cup almost to my mouth, cigarette in left hand and cell phone between my shoulder and ear. That stupid idiot. ESC wouldn't help him with the type of lane change he just performed by gunning the gas.
ESC works with traction control, which uses ABS. ESC will cut the engine if necessary. Without ESC you risk understeer or skid or with RWD oversteer and tailspin. Assuming there is some traction, and this is important, ESC will not let you exceed the limitations of the vehicle and surface assuming there is some control to the vehicle (not on black ice for example). This control happens in the blink of an eye before you can even think about it. Of course if you want to play the odds you plant your foot on the gas and take your chances. ESC will not compensate for rabid stupidity, but assuming you drive the car normally it will do its' job.
One of the prereqs for ABS is 4 channel ABS with EBD vs 3 channel. 3 channel ABS controls both rear wheels as a unit, nullifying the effect of controlling wheel individually. Sorry if I am posting things you already know, it's just a general comment to your post.
I love this, and it brings this point to mind. ABS, TCS, Airbags, and ESC are all great advances in car safety. But nothing will make the driver smarter. For all of you idiots talking on cell phones (especially the one who rear-ended my wife), if it's not a "Life or Death" call, SHUT UP, AND DRIVE.
Its still surprising that Prius sales are down considering all the noise about it. To some degree, blame it on gas prices and the tax credits. Discounts of around $2,000 can now be had in my locale and there's plenty of inventory.
As far as the 2008 Accord, it will be a good vehicle. I expect even better gas mileage from its 4 cylinder engine and very smooth automatic. Perhaps 1 to 3 in city/highway. Honda does not typically increase hp on the 4 that much, if at all. The Six cylinger will have a bump up I bet since Honda is now getting 300 hp on its sixes.
PS I wrote those last two posts that you responded and others responded. Not sure why it posted as "unknown." Anyway, my one cent is added. See you guys in a month and Happy Holidays.
keep in mind, mazda is one of ford's most profitable lines. although most drivers in N America seem to prefer utilitarian type cars, there is a significant market (particularly those who are younger at heart) who like cars that handle well.
also, recent history would suggest that mazda is not short of seed money to develop new cars. mazdaspeed6, mx-5 hardtop, mazda5, mazdaspeed3, cx-7 and cx-9 have all come out in the last few years. mazda's cars continue to get very good press and I think there's a good chance that sales at mazda will continue to climb, particularly if the new 6 can make some significant improvements. while ford has been languishing in the US, mazda has been doing well to focus it's marketing and design. with new engines and transmissions already in use, it won't take much for mazda to take the 6 to the next level. of course I would add that it's not entirely necessary since the 6 is a great car already :shades:
What if I'm talking on my cell phone thru a Bluetooth connection thru my stereo - handsfree of course? Can I still be on my call? I forward my office phone to my cell when I leave for lunch or appointments etc. Typically not a life or death situation (usually).
Most cars will have this feature soon.
Maybe the people who are 'on' their phone that don't seem to be talking to anyone (wanting to look like they're not a lonely person?) won't like this feature, but I do.