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Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds?
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Any cars in Alaska which are not equipped with A/C are going to have a hard time defogging their interior windows - the A/C plays a critical part in that process.
Gary, on your estimated 1% loss of MPG on your TDI, the best way to measure that is get several summer tanks without any A/C use and compare it to tanks where you use the A/C virtually every minute, in order to get good data. I'd be willing to bet you a Krispy Kreme that it's more than 1%. :shades:
So on a recent trip TO Las Vegas, in summer of course, 104 degrees. (is there any other time to go to LOSS WAGES?
Being vague and lumping all types & generations of hybrids together is a dead giveaway that certain people are not being sincere... especially when this very topic has already been discussed.
Only the HSD model hybrids from Toyota fully electric A/C (which is extremely efficient), the older ones do not. Neither do any hybrids from the competition either. So that claim above is very misleading.
My combined calculated average for 2004 & 2005 between the months of June & September comes to 53.5 MPG. There is simply no possible way to support the generalized 10%+ claim above. In reality, it is actually just a 1 to 2 MPG hit.
JOHN
now how about a cage match between HAH and Passat TDI?
2005 Passat TDI for now, but i hear we will see 2006 Passat TDI in the spring. maybe some of you gents can show us how the numbers stack up! we get 37 mpg summer with our passat TDI. it's down a few mpg now on winter fuel/etc. i got 48 mpg summer with jetta TDI, 44 mpg winter.
The vehicles I was referring to are the HH & RH both Toyota built. If you read all those threads you will see at least a 10% mileage variation being posted by the owners in both winter cold and summer heat conditions. When a poster says his mileage drops to 24 MPG from 28 MPG what percentage would you call that? Actually I have not seen where Honda hybrid posters are getting as big of a variation as the Toyota HSD vehicles. Is that less vague.
Actually if some manufacturer builds a plug-in series hybrid car it will put the current hybrids in a Museum along with the EV-1. Series diesel is the logical way to build a hybrid.
I would gain back all the weight I lost driving around without AC in the summer.
There is probably no way for me to prove that the AC on a diesel uses less than a gas car. I just know that drag feeling I get with smaller gas cars when I switch the AC on. I Just drove to town and while driving on a very flat portion of the freeway I watched the instant MPG readout. It was sitting on 48 MPG going 70 MPH. It did not drop 1/10 of a MPG when I would switch the AC on and off. Give it a try with the HCH and see how much it drops your MPG reading.
I even found pages that specialized in diesel engine info, and none of them in any of the technical data says that diesel car A/C does not use fuel.
I understand your point about how an increased load on an engine, caused by high RPMs, might rob smaller engines of their MPG when the compressor is running, but my point is that this effect is universal to all cars, maybe just lessened a little bit in higher horsepower engines, but there all the time nonetheless.
Torque has nothing to do with amount of fuel burned.
Don't you just hate it when you search for hours on the web and cannot find what you want? Why don't we compromise here. I'll give you a 2.5% loss in my VW TDI for the AC. That is still less than 1 MPG loss. I know there is no free lunch. By the way it was not for the defroster that I would special order my vehicles in Alaska with AC. It was to keep the dust out during the summer. In 1974 I bought a new Dodge van. The Alaska dealer would not special order it with AC. I ended up ordering one in Seattle and driving back.
Really? I can't find that reference anywhere.
JOHN
I have been finding that the gas mileage has dropped off substantially with the colder weather. We are now only averaging about 23-24mpg on the highway & about the same in the city. In the summer months we were getting about 27 on the highway & at least 30 in the city.
cyclone4, "Lexus RX 400h" #2098, 1 Dec 2005 8:32 pm
Seating: front seats good, driving position was fine once I got it set. Rear seat, plenty of leg room, needs more headroom. Seat cushion (rear) too firm. Had a sore butt after 20 minutes. Rear window visibility a little limited.
Steering: scary to me. Very numb! Had no sense of what the tires were doing. No road feel. Did not track well, especially at speeds over 40 mph. Required too much attention (in my view)to keep it tracking straight. Easily blown off course by passing semi on the highway. Car did not feel "tossable".
Ride: what I expected for a car of this size. Had two other people in the car with me. Lots of road noise at any speed with a fair amount of wind noise around the "A" pillar at highway speed.
Engine/Motor: stealth mode interesting. Had A/C running. Ran for about 15 - 25 seconds, then engine started. Starting seemed abrupt and harsh. Was startled by it several times. Underway from a stop, heard some electric motor whine along with road/tire noise, then the engine started. Again, seemed harsh, even with light application of right foot. Real hard kick when the engine started and engaged. Is this normal? Expected something more refined. When accelerating, lots of engine and exhaust noise heard. Seemed to be as loud as my CRD. Once on the highway and cruising at 65 mph, engine seemed to be running at a frenetic pace. I ignored the MFD, too distracting. Prius seems to be a better "around town" car than a highway car. Drove on the highway for about 15 minutes. Noisy; road, tire, engine, wind all made the environment sort of unpleasant. Accelerating from 55 mph to 75 mph was interesting. Sooooo Sloooow. Needs more power/torque.
Other: starting the Prius with a button was fun but if the A/C was left on it was a pain. The only security seems to be locked doors and perhaps an alarm system. Scary to leave this one unlocked, even for a few minutes.
From all I have read, not only does it get pretty good mpg (37 mpg I hear) but it actually does a better 0 to 60 than its gasser counter part. I know for sure the MB E 320 is an EXCELLENT road car. MB E320's are pricey I know (45-50k?), and the TDI adds something like 800-1200 premium? (I am swagging here)
As for Toyota products, while it has a reputation for quality and excellence across its wide product line, I would only say buyer beware!! However I have had great luck with over 5 Toyota Landcruiser's. Just wish they would let the very fine turbo diesels into the USA !!!
Highway is a good place for the CRD. You do not need a lot of right foot to make it move, even in a passing situation. Mashing the gas does not help on this engine. That took me a few minutes to figure out.
I agree that the concept of the technology is a good idea, but I feel that there is an easier way to do it. Toyota's approach is just to messy for my taste.
Actually, I got C & D magazine this weekend and I loved the review. Did more research and loved it even more. Great price, great performance and if I want, I can tow 3500 lbs. Will test one in late January. In the meantime, I'll still be a cheerleader for the Prius, since I still really like the car.
For those of you that may take your hybrids too seriously, the title of this post is intended as humor.
On a more serious note, it is encouraging to see diesel and hybrids with performance modifications. Racing technology improves street technology.
Nice article about diesels. Has a short take on the Honda 2.2L diesel. Got 92 mpg! Not a hybrid. Looks like they may be bringing it to the U.S.
Ford is working with diesel/electric and has a PZEV hybrid they are playing with. Do not know what kind of hybrid it is. Can obtain PZEV with diesel and not gas.
I'd really like to have the Accord i-CTDi as pictured in the article.
I would wait a year or two before buying the Honda diesel to make sure it is okay.
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:2pFF5gLlICAJ:www.corpsalesuk.com/04bulletin/o- ct04.pdf+%22honda+diesel%22+%2Bcdti+%2BKenichi+Nagahiro&hl=en
The film tells the story behind the creation of Honda’s first diesel in a unique way. Kenichi Nagahiro, the company’s chief engine designer and inventor of the celebrated VTEC engine, hated diesel engines, hated how noisy, smelly and dirty they were.
And so when he was asked to design Honda’s first diesel he flatly refused - unless he was allowed to start completely from scratch. The result of his efforts is one of the cleanest, most refined diesel engines on the market today, the 2.2 i-CTDi.
"Nagahiro’s passionate dislike for all that is bad about diesel engines was the motivation he needed to develop a new kind of Honda diesel. And the story behind this engine is a perfect example of the ‘Power of Dreams’ says Honda’s Matt Coombe.
Wieden & Kennedy, who produced the advertisement, were captivated by the idea of talking about Hate as something positive, a passionate force that could actually be turned to good use, and the slogan ‘Hate Something Change Something’ was born.
"One of the biggest challenges was how to talk about hate in a really positive way that felt right for Honda" says Kim Papworth at Wieden + Kennedy, London. "Writing a song and
creating an animated world of positive hate was the natural next step."
I just mailed out four letters yesterday and hope to get a 50% return. Maybe if enough people fired off letters inquiring about diesel cars in the US, something might happen, maybe. The lure of $$$ might be too great to ignore.
I would like to see Honda and Toyota bring in a diesel; in fact, I would like to see a diesel Chevy HHR. :shades:
I really don’t want an SUV (Liberty) and I do not want nor can I afford a MB. Call me picky.
For what I want, VW is my only choice. Kind of a monopoly in the affordable diesel passenger car market.
I think MB may be also bringing the A-class to this country in the next year or two. They have 1992 cc diesel that gets 48 mpg combined and 55 mpg highway, based on a U.K. EPA website that is similar to our EPA fuel economy website. There is another A-class with a 1.7L diesel that gets 60 mpg highway, and 52 mpg combined. They are not hybrids.
There are all sorts of good looking diesels over in Europe. I feel it is our lack of quality fuel that is keeping more European and Asian car makers from sending more diesels to the U.S. Once the fuel quality issue is taken care of, I feel that you will see more diesels on the road here.
Only time will tell how both of them really do.
Let us keep it apples and apples when it comes to magazine sources. It is only fair since C&D tests consistently one way while CR tests differently. Both the RAV-4 and CRD were tested by C&D.
Many people are getting in excess of EPA highway on their CRD's, including yours truly. Thirty+ mpg is not uncommon at 62 mph for me. Most gassers rarely ever get to EPA highway mpgs while diesels can generally exceed them fairly easily.
As to giving up mpg versus 0 - 60, I will take the mpgs. I have gotten 0 - 60 out of my system a long time ago. Rode as a passenger in a 1967 Dodge Dart with a 1957 392 cubic inch hemi crammed into it. 0 - 1320 ft with terminal speed in excess of 135 mph. Sixty came in under 2.0 seconds. 6.3 seconds is a little slow (LOL).
CO NOx PM HC
Honda 2.2 CTDi .171 .180 .013 0.0
E320 w/ DPF .030 .203 .004 0.0
Hyundai Tucson .148 .218 .040 .008
Prius .180 .010 0.0 .02
The E320 has a 3.0L six cylinder with filter (particulate). The Honda diesel is new 2.2L in an Accord four door sedan. The Tucson by Hyundai has a 2.0L diesel. I picked these cars as they are ones we know over here save for their diesel engines which are not here, save for the MB.
I think what I have said is coming to pass. Diesels are becoming emissions friendly. They have also done it in WAY less time than the so called "clean gassers"
New RAV has .83 skidpad, so much better handling than the CRD oil burner.
Why bother wasting all that money on a hybrid premium when you can buy the car below? Also it is environmentally friendly
The Audi R10 vehicle will have a 5.5-litre, 12-cylinder twin-turbo TDI engine, capable of producing 650bhp.
The R10 will have two particulate filters to reduce emissions as the company looks to ensure it is producing a competitive vehicle that is also environmentally-friendly
Gas prices are starting to rise again. I am paying 2.399 for diesel. Gas is 2.249 (local prices on gasbuddy). Doing the math again using same mpgs RAV-4:9.4 cents/mile, CRD: 8 cents/mile or $168 dollars more to run the RAV-4 over 12K miles.
CD for CRD is .42, RAV-4 .35.
As to your fuel economy during your test drive, remember that the engine was green. Mileage on my CRD did not start improving until after 3K miles. Have over 6K and am getting 30 mpg. Some people with over 10K getting over 30 at 65 mph. I run at 62 mph because it is a sweet spot for the engine and I get my best mpg there.
As to maintenance costs, oil change every 12K miles, fluid changes (differentials, transfer case) yearly. Will do those myself. Real easy to do. As for cooling system and trans service, I will let someone else do that, but not necessarily the dealer.
For CR-V, 2.2L diesel, 72.3 decibels
For CRD, 2.8L diesel, 74 decibels
For RAV-4, 2.0L diesel, 72.9 decibels
For Land Cruiser, 3.0L diesel, 71 decibels
The Honda and Toyota diesels are both smaller, except Land Cruiser, than that found in the CRD and yet are just as noisy. I doubt anyone has an ear that sharp to tell the difference.