Most modern common rail automotive diesels are pretty quiet. I have a Jeep CRD and it is pretty quiet underway. There is some clatter at start up and at lower speeds from the inside. At idle from the outside it is very quiet and when accelerating the turbocharger whistle is the dominant sound.
Dodge/Ford diesels are very loud. Never heard one from Chrysler. If every vehicle on the road was a diesel I would hate to be stuck in downtown traffic with the smell/soot/noise. I think diesel engines have their place. In garbage trucks, buses, 18 wheelers. If they put em in cars, can't they quiet the darn thing down? Ever hear a Mercedes diesel idling? Sounds like the dishes in my cupboard being shook back and forth. Ughhh!!!
Ever hear a Mercedes diesel idling? Sounds like the dishes in my cupboard being shook back and forth. Ughhh!!!
quote MSN review of E320 CDI -Tests by Mercedes show the car is the quietest diesel the company has ever offered in the U.S., with sounds at idle a mere 44 decibels compared with 42 decibels for the comparable gasoline-powered E-Class sedan. At full throttle, the diesel model actually is slightly quieter than the gasoline model, with noise measured at 72 decibels vs. 76 decibels from the gasoline engine. -end
Mercedes diesel is 4 decibels QUIETER than gasoline engine at full throttle and 2 decibel louder at idle.
Have you heard a new Mercedes E3230 CDI. It is very quiet, and faster than the gas version. 0-60 MPH in about 6.5 seconds. The reason the old design MB 300D was so noisy is technology. It was 1960s or earlier design. You know what? They are still on the road and running good. In CA that only has cleaner diesel and ULSD available you do not see them smoking.
When the garbage trucks, 18 wheelers and buses start using ULSD this year the difference will be dramatic. According to the EPA the buses tested with PM filters and ULSD were cleaner overall than the buses using CNG. There are more than a few diesel cars waiting in the wings that will get the PZEV rating once ULSD is the standard. Then most of the unleaded gas cars will have to play catch up. Which they will have a heck of a time doing when it comes to MPG. Even the hybrids when matched against diesel lose the mileage race overall city and highway.
Prius is comfortable, a festival of technology and unquestionably cleaner-burning than the VW can be today with only high-sulfur diesel fuel available. But the real-world mileage of pleasant-driving Jetta was better than that of Prius, and diesel fuel typically was 16% to 20% cheaper than unleaded gas.
Jetta lived up to its one-tank billing. Prius did not.
The German magazine Auto Bild has conducted a 5,200 km test across the USA comparing the fuel consumption of diesel and hybrid off-roaders.The Mercedes ML 320 CDI was compared with the Lexus RX 400h and, over the course of the run, the Mercedes was 11% more fuel efficient at 31.0 mpg compared to 27.7 mpg for the Lexus.
Yes, "the marbles in a can" sound ,since it is (by population) different than 97-98% of passenger cars can cause a perceptive dissonance. So the sound "difference" is perceived as a negative, even though indeed it might be less loud than what the other more familar sounds, sounds like,
The loud thumping coming out of many cars. I think it is supposed to be musical. I got news for them it is in NO way music to my ears. I would rather sit next to an 18 wheeler.
I've got news for you. That is the new diesel engine. Ever hear one from the late 80's? It can wake up the dead.
Not sure why you would bring up Jetta v Prius. We all know the Prius is the mileage champ. I guess you haven't read car and driver or popular mechanics lately. Would you like me to post links?
Diesels have the potential to change North America's fuel consumption far more than the hybrid. Countless thousands of these are sold each month by MANY HD truck manufacturers. LD truck manufacturers Ford, GM, Dodge already have a solid customer base. VW has been selling TDI Jetta/Golf/New Beetle/Passat/Touareg's for years. Jeep's Liberty CRD, Mercedes E320 TDI, and others are slated. Meanwhile, Honda's hi volume Accord can only sell (with rebates!) ~800/month of the Hybrid model! Crazy. :confuse:
Diesel is the realistic future. Let's hope the EPA doesn't eliminate this option...these vehicles are capable of significant mileage increases...with no battery pack to dispose of. :P
Even the Dodge Cummins six cylinder is much quieter than from years past. They are also much cleaner than a few years ago. My CRD generates very little smoke in comparison to my 1981 Isuzu diesel car.
Injection pressures in the CRD are 1600 Bar or about 23K psi. Also, there are multiple pulses of fuel injected prior to the main injection pulse of fuel. In my old Isuzu the injection pressure was 3750 psi and a single pulse of fuel.
The older Mercedes' diesel engines are based on the older technology as someone has mentioned. With the higher pressure, there is better fuel atomization for more power and a more complete burn. Once USLD is in place, the funky odor will be gone as well as most of the particulate/smoke. Sulfur is the culprit here. Sulfur is also a problem in gassers as it poisons certain catalysts thus reducing their efficiency over time.
I would also agree. If I had business reasons/need/want for a truck, I would favor and opt for the diesel. What the types that pooh pooh diesel fail to mention or even acknowledge is the anti diesel lobby and regulators have been very very successful in keeping the population of diesels very very low. (2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet). If they were the kings/queens they would mandate them out of existence.
We don't all know that nor do we all believe that. If you have a legitimate comparison between the two feel free to post it.. A comparison over a 12 mile route, hardly checks the overall capability of either the Prius or the Jetta TDI. My posted test was real world travel on a 500 mile route. So if C&D or PM did real world comparisons get them out here to give us something to debate.
If you hear any diesel when they are cold, like first start of the day, they are noisy. You make it sound like they are raucous, but they are not, at least I do not think they are. I have heard the new Mercedes diesel and it is pretty quiet in my view.
One other comment. Prius maybe, in your view, the mileage champ, but uses a one way fuel. I do not care how clean it is, it still uses a one way fuel. E10 has it's own issues too. In several respects, diesels are far cleaner than gassers namely less CO2, no unburned HC, and practically no CO and this without a catalytic converter. With USLD and particulate filter, soot will become a non-issue. The only nut left to crack is NOx and that will come soon and at a reasonable price.
It is absurd to compare late 80's diesel with 2005 hybrids.
I've got news for you. That is the new diesel engine. Ever hear one from the late 80's?
If you insist on discussing the 80's, it is only fair to compare the late 80's diesels to late 80's hybrids. :surprise:
This has ALL been covered before, please read the old posts, there is no constructive purpose, not even entertainment, to rehash these old misconceptions.
I would also agree if you want to discuss the 80's diesels why don't we discuss LEADED REGULAR FUEL MANDATORY for all passenger cars in the late 1970's.
My take is "our" regulators made a HUGE mistake when they did not mandate better fuel standards at the time they mandated the switch from LEADED regular to UN leaded regular. in the 1970's.
In fact, the advances in emissions control devices for diesels have been much shorter and FASTER than for gassers.
Realistic? Are you joking? What variety is out there? Only VW sells the TDI. No American companies sell diesel cars. No Japanese or Korean companies sell diesel cars here either. I haven't read of any that are slated for introduction here. Soooooo.... We do have hybrids
Just read the writeup in consumer reports and they rated the civic higher than the jetta gas/diesel. The diesel took 12.2 seconds to hit 60. I think that is a bit on the slow side. The Prius ranges from 9.8 - 10.2 in most magazines I've read. The Civic was slow too but they liked it better. The won't even recommend the Jetta due to "subpar reliability".
I am very glad that they are looking out for our interests. Diesesl belong in commerical trucks, not in passenger cars. Forget Europe for a moment. They have no choice because gas is so expensive there. Most Europeans would trash their diesels if gas was $2.00/gallon. Granted there is higher efficiency, but Honda is working on an engine that will have the efficiency of a diesel and burn regular gas.
Since you like the 0-60 metric, what do you think would happen if the Civic had the same HP as the VW JETTA TDI of 90 hp? What is the hp of the Civic that you are comparing? So for example the hp on my 2004 Civic is 115 hp.
Oh yes and they are lobbying hard and well to push to hydrogen which sells for 16 dollars per gal and gets 22 mpg. At those prices I hope my diesel lasts 2M miles instead of my wasteful goal of between 500,000 -1,000,000 miles. But realistically all the regulators really have to do is make sure the price of unleaded regular goes up. This will all but guarantee the populations of passenger vehicles-diesels to rise.
Take the UK for example, there are no tax breaks for diesel (Tax breaks, HOV lanes, what else is required to subsidize hybrids in the US to get people to buy them!!) vehicles, diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline, and diesels now have greater than 50% of the market.
Actually in Europe, Japanese cars are at a competivie disadvantage, sort of like American cars in America. There are lots of reasons for this. However we can go into some of the landscape if folks have interest.
Yes in marketing and bean counter parlance, this upsurge in demand makes it cost effective to overcome the inevitable BS they have to go through to sell them in the USA.
Show me some links. I read all the car magazines and none says anything about diesels coming here. I see the vocal minority really chimes in when their "diesel club" is entered by someone new with differing opinions. I am entitled to my opinion and I will express it here as I see fit.
CRD is built in Italy (the engine) from what I read. DC is a German company so let's stop applauding and waving the American flag. I also mentioned passenger car, not SUV.
As for no "American" company producing a domestic diesel to place in a "Passenger" car, the answer is really simple. GM and Ford have European subsidiaries who have been manufacturing diesels for years successfully. So why should they re-invent the wheel?
As I understand it DC is both German and American and not just one or the other.
Your comment about the engine being Italian goes back to my first statement, namely the need not to re-invent the wheel. DC is a 49% shareholder in V.M. Motori who has been building automotive diesels since 1947. The Koreans, especially Hyundai build diesels that are licensed from the V.M. Motori company. Until recently, Honda was building diesels licensed from someone else.
Yes, you are entitled to express your opinion as you see fit, but anyone in this forum is allowed to question or challenge your opinions or my opinions as they see fit.
So? Are diesels cleaner than their gas counterparts?? Why would someone want to drive a diesel when a gas car is cleaner? According to what I have been reading, diesel cars are dirtier and bad for our environment. Why would you want to burn a dirtier fuel and worsen the air?
Diesels in several respects are cleaner than gassers.
1. No unburned hydrocarbon emissions. 2. Significantly less to no carbon monoxide emissions. 3. In the vast majority of cases, lower carbon dioxide emissions for equivalent sized engines.
Only two places where diesel gets dinged is on PM and NOx. PM will soon be a non-issue with ULSD and PM filters. NOx is a little harder to fix, but the solution for this problem is not to far off.
Gassers also use high sulfur fuel, except in CA and there are more of you. That will change later this year.
According to the EPA website it does not show any cleanliness greater than gas. Is this the reason CARB restricts sales of diesel passenger vehicles in many states? Will that automatically change in June when this "cleaner fuel" reaches dealers? I am betting that the additional refining cost will make diesel fuel higher. Has anyone given that any thought? Why should people at this juncture pay $0.45 more per gallon for the privilege of driving a car that burns diesel? All good questions which need answers. I am open to debate.
The CARB rules restrict the sale of brand new diesel cars. They do not restrict the sale of diesel cars with more than 7500 miles on them. There are only five states that follow CARB rules.
The higher price of diesel is mostly a seasonal thing as #2 heating oil and diesel fuel are one in the same. Will there be an additional cost for ULSD? Yes. Will there be an additional cost for Low sulfur gasoline? Yes and it will be about the same as diesel. I have read that the removal of sulfur will add about 4 - 7 cents per gallon.
As to driving a car that uses diesel, it is cheaper than using gasoline. Sounds crazy. I drive a Jeep Liberty CRD. On the highway I get a touch over 30 mpg at 62 mph. The gasoline equivalent with the V-6 gets 17 mpg at similar speed. That is why I drive a diesel. The engine is an $845 option in the Liberty, and a little over $200 in the VW. Add to that that I can use B20 makes it really worth my while.
If you need an SUV it definitely makes sense. However, you are lucky to get 30mpg. Most people seem to be getting low to mid 20's. CU always seems to get lower mileage so I won't even suggest their numbers as they seem low. You made a good choice. 4-7 cents sounds about right. Just to reiterate, I have nothing against diesel engines, I just am annoyed that in this day and age it takes so long to have rules in place which should have been in place years ago. If that were the case, the we would not have a need for hybrids. Not sure how long diesel fuel has been clean in Europe, but our govt has some really stupid people running it. So..yes I do not like diesel clatter, but NO I have nothing against clean diesels. Enjoy your CRD!!
Clean diesel has been in the EU for a good number of years. For how many years I do not know. The cetane in EU fuel is 51 or greater which contributes to a cleaner burn. In CA ULSD is mandated and has to have a cetane rating of 48 or better.
I agree with you about poor management in our government. I agree that rules for USLD should have been in place years ago, but that is politics for you. Stupidity 101.
As for hybrids, the concept is good but not in its present form. They still use a non-renewable fuel that still contributes to loading the atmosphere with carbon dioxide from the past. My concept of a hybrid is similar to that of a locomotive. A diesel engine driving a generator that drives electric motors. This eliminates the need for a transmission or PSD. A capacitor would be used to give a little kick when needed, no battery pack. Also, capacitors can be recharged many more cycles than the batteries as found in present day hybrids.
As for the clatter, comes with the territory. Eventually, diesels will be quieter, but they are what they are.
during Hurricane Katrina aftermath, the CEO, USA directed the refineries that normally process diesel to forego diesel and refine more unleaded regular to meet the Hurricane Katrina caused demand. The fed of course easied the emissions abatement to facilitate this "violation". As a result diesel price shot up as precipitiously as unleaded regular did . What should have happened was to let the unleaded regular prices go to the roof to fuel the normal demand for diesel.
The diesel clatter is really the sound of 25 to 1 compression ratio. The Jetta TDI is around 19-1 and I am told the iCTDI Honda is more like 16/17 to 1. This brings down the so called clatter.
Do you guys think there is a way to suppress the noise diesels make from entering the cabin? That was my only pet peeve with the 06 Jetta I just drove. As I may have mentioned the car performed flawlessly, other than at startup and at idle. Maybe they should invest a few more dollars and add more sound insulation in the cabin? How about something to counteract the vibrations? With today's technology you would think they can overcome this.
If the noise is only a bother when at idle or just starting that seems minor. Most of your time spent in a car is driving. I would think after a few months of lower fuel cost the annoyance may lessen.
I think you might be annoyed at the fact the sound is "different". A prior post indicated the diesel was actually more quiet than its gasser model counter part!!?? I have gasser folks ride in my VW Jetta TDI all the time and they can't tell it is a diesel, unless I point it out to them. Then they are either enthused or disgusted or ask me why on earth I got a diesel.
The highest compression ratio I have ever seen on a diesel was 21:1. The compression ratio on my CRD is 17.5:1. The clatter is mostly influenced by combustion chamber design and then the cetane of the fuel. Most modern diesels are of the open chamber type with no pre-chamber or swirl chamber as seen in the 80's and early 90's. These pre- or swirl chambers actually quieted the diesel's racket quite a bit but took away about 1/3 of their efficiency. They also made the emissions worse. Open chambered engines are noisy, no doubt about it. The CRD is an open chamber design. To quiet them down, multiple small pulses of fuel are injected just prior to the big pulse which does help. Mounting the engine on hydro elastic engine mounts helps the vibration also, along with counter-rotating balance shafts.
The addition of a second firewall, as found in my 1981 Isuzu car was a big help in noise reduction.
The cetane of the fuel is another factor in amount of noise that comes from the diesel. The higher the cetane, the faster the burn, the quieter the engine is. Also, higher cetane yields lower emissions.
ULSD is mandated Fall of 2006. E320 CDI is expected to be offered in all 50 states starting Fall of 2006. Additional diesel cars and SUVS from Mercedes are expected to follow as are additional Chrysler diesels. As expected and predicted, the diesels will begin to arrive in Fall of 2006 with the widespread availability of ULSD.
I think then 2006/2007 (they keep hedging on this) is a time the non diesel advocates fear. It will be like opening the flood gates. I think it will (unfortunately for them) flood out those non damming restrictive arguments against #2 diesel products.
I always thought it disengenuous for slamming BUSH for not complying/concurring with the Kyoto signers, when the majority of Kyoto signers have oem's manufacturing diesel products; such as passenger vehicles fleets upwards of 45% and GROWING!!!
They also have mainstream nuclear power which has been almost totally poo poohed in the USA, but that is another issue.
I was under the impression that ULSD was going to coming into play much earlier than the fall. I had heard that ULSD would be widely available by summer this year.
More diesels, I love it. Has anyone heard if a good solution for the NOx problem has been found?
My response would of necessity be a SWAG. May I first reference the past mandating in CA of electrical cars at 2%. About 10 years ago the environmentalists were really hot on the trail in getting electric cars on the road. Basically the energy source is electricity, but it requires a 220V circuit (2 110V circuits strapped in) at your house. Imagine the bru haa on the other hand, that now the local, state, and fed would not now get the transportation taxation place on more normal fuels such as unleaded and diesel. They of course get the taxation place on electrical energy consumed at your residence parcel. So much advertising was done and cities were given credits to buy these new electric vehicles. We contracted for and took delivery of a electric Ford Ranger? Well the most newsworthy portion of this introduction was how DEAD it was. Not even the environmentalists who advocated this BOUGHT THE NEW VEHICLES!!. The participants have long since dismantled these programs. And folks wonder why GM FORD and Chrysler are not doing so well.
So I think with the advent of alternative fuels; such as diesel, natural gas, (again even more of a problem with home fuel not being taxed correctly) and 100% ethanol. A hybrid priced say 7500 dollars more than a diesel is going to have rough sledding. Of course it is known that diesel and even ethanol are much cheaper to refine.
If the price differences (diesel vs gas) remain at current levels, it will be difficult to gain further market penetration. I'd like to see the Smart Car as well as the BMW diesel cars brought over for us deprived Yanks.
I do not see price levels remaining the same. Both will rise, with gas rising more in the long run.
Even if diesel costs a few cents more than gas, it is still cheaper to run over the long term if you place a diesel engine in an equivalent vehicle. At 30 mpg on the highway, it costs me 8.7 cents/mile to drive my Jeep Liberty CRD and that is at 2.609/gallon. In V-6 version gets 17 mpg @241.9 per gallon is 14.2 cents/mile. Diesel would have to be over$4.00/gallon to cost as much per mile as the V-6 gasser, if gas prices remained unchanged.
But this is not going to happen. They will both climb and even though gas might remain a little cheaper, diesel will still be cheaper to run over the long term.
Comments
Warner
quote MSN review of E320 CDI -Tests by Mercedes show the car is the quietest diesel the company has ever offered in the U.S., with sounds at idle a mere 44 decibels compared with 42 decibels for the comparable gasoline-powered E-Class sedan. At full throttle, the diesel model actually is slightly quieter than the gasoline model, with noise measured at 72 decibels vs. 76 decibels from the gasoline engine. -end
Mercedes diesel is 4 decibels QUIETER than gasoline engine at full throttle and 2 decibel louder at idle.
The facts do not support your opinion at all.
Have you heard a new Mercedes E3230 CDI. It is very quiet, and faster than the gas version. 0-60 MPH in about 6.5 seconds. The reason the old design MB 300D was so noisy is technology. It was 1960s or earlier design. You know what? They are still on the road and running good. In CA that only has cleaner diesel and ULSD available you do not see them smoking.
When the garbage trucks, 18 wheelers and buses start using ULSD this year the difference will be dramatic. According to the EPA the buses tested with PM filters and ULSD were cleaner overall than the buses using CNG. There are more than a few diesel cars waiting in the wings that will get the PZEV rating once ULSD is the standard. Then most of the unleaded gas cars will have to play catch up. Which they will have a heck of a time doing when it comes to MPG. Even the hybrids when matched against diesel lose the mileage race overall city and highway.
Prius is comfortable, a festival of technology and unquestionably cleaner-burning than the VW can be today with only high-sulfur diesel fuel available. But the real-world mileage of pleasant-driving Jetta was better than that of Prius, and diesel fuel typically was 16% to 20% cheaper than unleaded gas.
Jetta lived up to its one-tank billing. Prius did not.
Prius vs Jetta
The German magazine Auto Bild has conducted a 5,200 km test across the USA comparing the fuel consumption of diesel and hybrid off-roaders.The Mercedes ML 320 CDI was compared with the Lexus RX 400h and, over the course of the run, the Mercedes was 11% more fuel efficient at 31.0 mpg compared to 27.7 mpg for the Lexus.
Mileage contest 2 for diesel 0 for hybrid.
The loud thumping coming out of many cars. I think it is supposed to be musical. I got news for them it is in NO way music to my ears. I would rather sit next to an 18 wheeler.
Not sure why you would bring up Jetta v Prius. We all know the Prius is the mileage champ. I guess you haven't read car and driver or popular mechanics lately. Would you like me to post links?
Diesel is the realistic future. Let's hope the EPA doesn't eliminate this option...these vehicles are capable of significant mileage increases...with no battery pack to dispose of. :P
Injection pressures in the CRD are 1600 Bar or about 23K psi. Also, there are multiple pulses of fuel injected prior to the main injection pulse of fuel. In my old Isuzu the injection pressure was 3750 psi and a single pulse of fuel.
The older Mercedes' diesel engines are based on the older technology as someone has mentioned. With the higher pressure, there is better fuel atomization for more power and a more complete burn. Once USLD is in place, the funky odor will be gone as well as most of the particulate/smoke. Sulfur is the culprit here. Sulfur is also a problem in gassers as it poisons certain catalysts thus reducing their efficiency over time.
We don't all know that nor do we all believe that. If you have a legitimate comparison between the two feel free to post it.. A comparison over a 12 mile route, hardly checks the overall capability of either the Prius or the Jetta TDI. My posted test was real world travel on a 500 mile route. So if C&D or PM did real world comparisons get them out here to give us something to debate.
One other comment. Prius maybe, in your view, the mileage champ, but uses a one way fuel. I do not care how clean it is, it still uses a one way fuel. E10 has it's own issues too. In several respects, diesels are far cleaner than gassers namely less CO2, no unburned HC, and practically no CO and this without a catalytic converter. With USLD and particulate filter, soot will become a non-issue. The only nut left to crack is NOx and that will come soon and at a reasonable price.
I've got news for you. That is the new diesel engine. Ever hear one from the late 80's?
If you insist on discussing the 80's, it is only fair to compare the late 80's diesels to late 80's hybrids. :surprise:
This has ALL been covered before, please read the old posts, there is no constructive purpose, not even entertainment, to rehash these old misconceptions.
My take is "our" regulators made a HUGE mistake when they did not mandate better fuel standards at the time they mandated the switch from LEADED regular to UN leaded regular. in the 1970's.
In fact, the advances in emissions control devices for diesels have been much shorter and FASTER than for gassers.
Just read the writeup in consumer reports and they rated the civic higher than the jetta gas/diesel. The diesel took 12.2 seconds to hit 60. I think that is a bit on the slow side. The Prius ranges from 9.8 - 10.2 in most magazines I've read. The Civic was slow too but they liked it better. The won't even recommend the Jetta due to "subpar reliability".
This has already been covered and proven wrong.
Diesel cost vs. Gasoline cost
Take the UK for example, there are no tax breaks for diesel (Tax breaks, HOV lanes, what else is required to subsidize hybrids in the US to get people to buy them!!) vehicles, diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline, and diesels now have greater than 50% of the market.
Wrong! Honda and Toyota have both announced that they will be introducing diesels in US.
Both Honda and Toyota have tested diesel engines that meet EPA emissions requirements for 2007.
Both Honda and Toyota sell more diesels worldwide than they do hybrids. And that is exluding trucks!
CRD is built in Italy (the engine) from what I read. DC is a German company so let's stop applauding and waving the American flag. I also mentioned passenger car, not SUV.
Working in R&D helps.....
Secondly, you "may" be new, however, falconone and others have already stated the same opinions.
Third, outdated opinions of diesels or hybrids, and perpetuating incorrect information will either be ignored or responded to.
As for no "American" company producing a domestic diesel to place in a "Passenger" car, the answer is really simple. GM and Ford have European subsidiaries who have been manufacturing diesels for years successfully. So why should they re-invent the wheel?
As I understand it DC is both German and American and not just one or the other.
Your comment about the engine being Italian goes back to my first statement, namely the need not to re-invent the wheel. DC is a 49% shareholder in V.M. Motori who has been building automotive diesels since 1947. The Koreans, especially Hyundai build diesels that are licensed from the V.M. Motori company. Until recently, Honda was building diesels licensed from someone else.
Yes, you are entitled to express your opinion as you see fit, but anyone in this forum is allowed to question or challenge your opinions or my opinions as they see fit.
1. No unburned hydrocarbon emissions.
2. Significantly less to no carbon monoxide emissions.
3. In the vast majority of cases, lower carbon dioxide emissions for equivalent sized engines.
Only two places where diesel gets dinged is on PM and NOx. PM will soon be a non-issue with ULSD and PM filters. NOx is a little harder to fix, but the solution for this problem is not to far off.
Gassers also use high sulfur fuel, except in CA and there are more of you. That will change later this year.
The higher price of diesel is mostly a seasonal thing as #2 heating oil and diesel fuel are one in the same. Will there be an additional cost for ULSD? Yes. Will there be an additional cost for Low sulfur gasoline? Yes and it will be about the same as diesel. I have read that the removal of sulfur will add about 4 - 7 cents per gallon.
As to driving a car that uses diesel, it is cheaper than using gasoline. Sounds crazy. I drive a Jeep Liberty CRD. On the highway I get a touch over 30 mpg at 62 mph. The gasoline equivalent with the V-6 gets 17 mpg at similar speed. That is why I drive a diesel. The engine is an $845 option in the Liberty, and a little over $200 in the VW. Add to that that I can use B20 makes it really worth my while.
4-7 cents sounds about right. Just to reiterate, I have nothing against diesel engines, I just am annoyed that in this day and age it takes so long to have rules in place which should have been in place years ago. If that were the case, the we would not have a need for hybrids. Not sure how long diesel fuel has been clean in Europe, but our govt has some really stupid people running it. So..yes I do not like diesel clatter, but NO I have nothing against clean diesels. Enjoy your CRD!!
I agree with you about poor management in our government. I agree that rules for USLD should have been in place years ago, but that is politics for you. Stupidity 101.
As for hybrids, the concept is good but not in its present form. They still use a non-renewable fuel that still contributes to loading the atmosphere with carbon dioxide from the past. My concept of a hybrid is similar to that of a locomotive. A diesel engine driving a generator that drives electric motors. This eliminates the need for a transmission or PSD. A capacitor would be used to give a little kick when needed, no battery pack. Also, capacitors can be recharged many more cycles than the batteries as found in present day hybrids.
As for the clatter, comes with the territory. Eventually, diesels will be quieter, but they are what they are.
Been a good discussion with you.
The diesel clatter is really the sound of 25 to 1 compression ratio. The Jetta TDI is around 19-1 and I am told the iCTDI Honda is more like 16/17 to 1. This brings down the so called clatter.
Don't forget that we allowed the EU to help us by dumping their excess refined gasoline...are real 1-2 punch.
Boilermaker2
The addition of a second firewall, as found in my 1981 Isuzu car was a big help in noise reduction.
The cetane of the fuel is another factor in amount of noise that comes from the diesel. The higher the cetane, the faster the burn, the quieter the engine is. Also, higher cetane yields lower emissions.
E320 CDI is expected to be offered in all 50 states starting Fall of 2006. Additional diesel cars and SUVS from Mercedes are expected to follow as are additional Chrysler diesels.
As expected and predicted, the diesels will begin to arrive in Fall of 2006 with the widespread availability of ULSD.
PR for Bluetec and E320 CDI
I always thought it disengenuous for slamming BUSH for not complying/concurring with the Kyoto signers, when the majority of Kyoto signers have oem's manufacturing diesel products; such as passenger vehicles fleets upwards of 45% and GROWING!!!
They also have mainstream nuclear power which has been almost totally poo poohed in the USA, but that is another issue.
More diesels, I love it. Has anyone heard if a good solution for the NOx problem has been found?
So I think with the advent of alternative fuels; such as diesel, natural gas, (again even more of a problem with home fuel not being taxed correctly) and 100% ethanol. A hybrid priced say 7500 dollars more than a diesel is going to have rough sledding. Of course it is known that diesel and even ethanol are much cheaper to refine.
Interesting Study about "why people buy hybrids."
Even if diesel costs a few cents more than gas, it is still cheaper to run over the long term if you place a diesel engine in an equivalent vehicle. At 30 mpg on the highway, it costs me 8.7 cents/mile to drive my Jeep Liberty CRD and that is at 2.609/gallon. In V-6 version gets 17 mpg @241.9 per gallon is 14.2 cents/mile. Diesel would have to be over$4.00/gallon to cost as much per mile as the V-6 gasser, if gas prices remained unchanged.
But this is not going to happen. They will both climb and even though gas might remain a little cheaper, diesel will still be cheaper to run over the long term.
"Both V8 comply with stringent US LEV II emission standards"
That's pathetic!
Even gassers using dirty gas can do much better than that.
All of the hybrids now deliver significantly cleaner emissions, the SULEV II rating... which is 2 categories above LEV.
No wonder the EPA standards are rarely mentioned by diesel supporters. With values that low, it makes sense to avoid talking about them.
JOHN