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houdini1 ? - Toyota/Honda ?
housini1 ? - Toyota/Honda ?
Hmmm tough choice.... ahhhhh I guess Ill have to go with the latter two. A little more experience.
Indeed Honda developed the cTDI for the European market share and have the short term goal of having fully 33% of Honda sales in Europe, diesel.
That is TOTAL speculation on your part. There is no reason to believe that battery cost will decrease. What common battery is cheaper today than a year ago. Batteries will keep getting more expensive as they go to more exotic materials to make them.
The only hope I can see is for some miracle storage device. Lithium Ion is all but dead IMO. It just has some bad characteristics that will keep it from ever being used in cars on a large scale. NIMH is not getting any cheaper with time. Does Toyota have a plan B when the hybrid option becomes too expensive?
PS
The TCH has less of a battery than the Prius. Want to guess why?
The TCH has less of a battery than the Prius. Want to guess why?
Sssh... don't mention that. It upsets certain people. It also quite upsetting to certain people that the Camry has an 'eco' hybrid mode because the batteries, even with a much touted full hybrid with electric A/C, aren't enough to power the A/C when it's hot for very long.
Batteries just aren't going to get any cheaper. And as you said, LiIon is just about dead. And last time I checked, batteries cost the same today as they did 5 years ago. Even the 5K replacement battery pack for the prius costs... the same today as it did when the car was brand new.
I pointed out the long-term benefit of the "full" hybrid design, by augmenting the electric abilities. He focused entirely on the present instead, hoping to convince readers the two designs were the same... even though their actual operation has virtually nothing in common. Then he pointed out how no one would ever buy an augmented hybrid, since that modification invalidates the warranty. I, for the second time, had to point out that it would be the automaker itself providing that. So the claim of coverage denial was meritless.
It got so silly, I didn't know how to proceed. The evidence of denial was absolutely overwhelming. It was good fun!
Anywho, this was his quote that had me rolling: "Until a manufacturer offers an 'augmented' Prius or Escape for sale, they're the same. And let's face it, Toyota is not going to." So at his expense, I'm going to reveal out how he is dead wrong... just by pointing out that Toyota has already announced that they are planning to do precisely that.
The 2009 Prius will indeed by augmented. By replacing the current NiMH battery-pack with a Li-Ion, electric drive abilities will be enhanced... increasing the current range from 3 to 9 miles. At the same time, the overall price of the system will drop. The result will be a more affordable hybrid with even higher efficiency. Ha!
JOHN
Are you convinced enough on that to make a wager? I say Lithium Ion batteries have some characteristics that will preclude them from ever being mainstream hybrid batteries. Even Toyota engineers are smart enough not to use a technology that has a very distinct life cycle. Age is the enemy of lithium ion batteries. Along with some hazards dealing with charging and fires.
I am not sure how ULSD fits into the limitations presented by hybrid cars. Other than we will have a choice starting next week. Tell me how Toyota plans to augment the HSD into a vehicle that is as capable as a diesel alternative. Take for example the ML320 CDI vs the RX400h. What do you suppose Toyota will do to make it competitive with a diesel in its own price range? At this point in time the ML320 CDI gets better mileage, tows more and has no absurd off road limitations.
PS
You ignored the point about the TCH de-augmenting the batteries in their latest HSD. Maybe they are already seeing the light on long term battery replacement. Maybe they have changed out more than they like and want to cut their losses.
When those new diesels hit you won't even hear the word hybrid.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
John, I know you find this hard to believe, but I don't support any one particular type of hybrid over another. I have said many times, I prefer the simplest solution for the best cost. And even tho I own a Prius, I am willing to concede that right now the best solution is NOT HSD.
FYI - 3 to 9 miles of plug in power is not going to set the world on fire. Actually, if they're LiIon batteries, they may well set someone's garage on fire.
OTOH.. you might be wrong. That's prolly a little more likely.
With the long history of good performance by diesels why have they not done better and appealed to more buyers in the non-CARB states? Only 45,000 light diesel vehicles were sold in the last year which is about 1/5th the number of hybrids sold. If diesels are such a dominating, revolutionary, innovative technology why has everyone been ignoring it in the non-CARB states thus far?
Do you think a switch is suddenly going to be turned on? Aha diesels! There will be a long period of re-education of the American public toward light diesel vehicles. Honda better do a good job of it because the others who might be bringing diesels to market in 2008 don't have that great a rep and MB is way above the means of most buyers. If Honda succeeds then they all will tag along on it's coattails.
The question is how many hybrids were sold in the Non CARB states. I would bet the overwhelming majority were sold in CA. & NY two of the CARB states. Then add to that there are what at least 10 models of hybrids available in all 50 states. How many diesels available in the 45 non CARB states. If you look at the 45 states that are less skewed by politics I would imagine diesels do OK on sales. The availability of the #1 selling diesel car is another factor.
Not all hybrids are selling like hotcakes. The dealers here cannot get rid of the Hybrid Highlander. Selling below invoice. Not sure about the RH, have not visited a Lexus dealer recently. They would never let on anyway.
REGIONAL STRENGTHS
California continues to lead the way for hybrids with 52,619 new hybrid vehicle registrations in 2005, up from 25,021 in 2004. California accounts for 26.4 percent of the nation's share for new hybrid units (Table 1). This outpaces second-ranked Florida by more than a five-to-one margin. Eight states (California, Florida, Texas, New York, Virginia, Illinois, Washington and Pennsylvania) accounted for more than 56 percent of the nation's hybrid registrations.
Table 1 - Top 10 Hybrid States (2005 Calendar Year)
Rank State Total New Hybrid Share of U.S.
Registrations Hybrid Volume (%)
1 California 52,619 26.4
2 Florida 10,470 5.3
3 Texas 9,632 4.8
4 New York 9,372 4.7
5 Virginia 8,650 4.3
6 Illinois 7,286 3.7
7 Washington 6,970 3.5
8 Pennsylvania 6,948 3.5
9 Massachusetts 6,060 3.0
10 Maryland 5,673 2.8
Combined Top 10 123,680 62.1
So the top ten states have 62%. That still leaves more than a third from the rest.
Hybrid registrations by state for 2005
The next year will be critical for hybrids. If they continue to sell with less tax credit and no HOV privilege in CA. They may be a permanent fixture. Of course the automakers have to be able to get enough batteries to satisfy the need. Maybe the new Prius will have even a smaller battery than the TCH. That would save money that Toyota could pass on to the buyer, NOT!
I has ALWAYS been about
PROMOTING
CLEAN
AIR
AND
FUEL
EFFICIENT
VEHICLES
That's all. That's the point. That's the entire goal. Clean the air, reduce gasoline burned.
President Bush said recently:
"Second part of a good plan is -- to confront high gasoline prices is to promote greater fuel efficiency. And the easiest way to promote fuel efficiency is to encourage drivers to purchase highly efficient hybrid or clean diesel vehicles, which, by the way, can run on alternative energy sources. Hybrid vehicles run on a combination of a traditional engine and an electric battery. The twin sources of power allow hybrid cars and trucks to travel about twice as far on a gallon of fuel as gasoline-only vehicles. When people are driving hybrids, they're conserving energy.
Clean diesel vehicles take advantage of advances in diesel technology to run on 30 percent less fuel than gasoline vehicles do. More than 200,000 hybrid and clean diesel vehicles were sold in the United States last year. It's the highest sales in history. Congress wisely in the energy bill expanded a tax credit for purchase of hybrids and clean diesel vehicles up to as much as up to $3,400 per purchase. That made sense.
If we're trying to conserve energy, if we want to become less dependent on oil, let's provide incentives for consumers to use less energy. The problem is that these tax credits apply to only a limited number of hybrid and clean diesel vehicles for each manufacturer. If the automakers sell more than their limit, new purchasers are not eligible for the full tax credit. And so here's an idea that can get more of these vehicles on the road, and that is to have Congress make all hybrid and clean diesel vehicles sold this year eligible for federal tax credits. We want to encourage people to make wise choices when it comes to the automobiles they drive.
Now, anyone reading this, which part of those statements do not make PERFECT LOGICAL SENSE?
Not all hybrids are selling like hotcakes. The dealers here cannot get rid of the Hybrid Highlander. Selling below invoice. Not sure about the RH, have not visited a Lexus dealer recently. They would never let on anyway.
This then would make the HH a normal Highlander, all of which are selling below invoice as they enter their 6th year. This is a good thing since more buyers now can take advantage of the hybrid option. Hybrids are just becoming 'one of the boys' so to speak.
Because of a few tropical storms;
We had record breaking gas prices.
We had the threat of a fuel shortage, weather real or imagined depending on location.
We had the threat of refineries and drilling platforms being out commission for months.
Several of our major cities were in ruins from these storms.
Our government was basically ineffectual in resolving any of these problems.
Also remember this was the same year that by September you could not find a VW TDI for sale anyplace.
Let’s see the sales for VW TDI equipped cars for the same period.
That is exactly what I said. The government is using their clout to move the market in the direction THEY choose.
Here is the choice buy a Civic at MSRP. Buy a Civic Hybrid and MSRP and the government gives you a fat check. Plus just because you do our bidding you can circumvent the rules on high occupancy vehicle lanes.
All the studies you show on this forum that are pro hybrid and anti diesel. Who pays for them? I would be willing to bet the bulk are paid for with our tax money. Who might be twisting the Congressman's arm to get legislation passed that controls our lives?
Of course it makes perfect sense. It is the typical "do as I say not as I do". they would like us all riding around in some little cracker box car while they fat cat it in their limo or Suburban. I ain't buying into that crap.
Gary, if that "direction" which they are moving the market is GOOD FOR EVERYONE, then why is that bad?
In other words, if the government is "telling us what to drive" and that is making the air cleaner, what is wrong with that?
Not to be unkind, but it is a source of continued both shock, and utter amazement, ESPECIALLY GIVEN the data cited by the web site Larsh posted, (thanks Larsh) that the growth of hybrids is interpreted any other way that what you (Gagrice) has penned.
Again, the posted statistics almost totally confirms the hybrid in on the 138 year target to "take over the world" so to speak!
If I could put the VW Jetta TDI on the IRS section 179 deduction of 25,000 per year current, (to 100,000 past, you know the one all those real estate folks bought 75,000 to 100,000 dollar hummers on?) I would quite literally cut my 18,000 dollar cost, at the very least in HALF. (I'm waking up from my dream now
I find that a very naive view of what the government is doing. First why is LEV, ULEV & SULEV being implemented now? Why wasn't it done 10 years ago or 15 years ago, if it was so important? Second you don't find it odd that they keep upping the limits on pollution just to keep diesel technology out of the mainstream? Or have you ever thought about the BIG picture here? Diesel as has been pointed out many times carries approximately 37% more energy than unleaded gasoline. The only alternative to unleaded is possibly ethanol. Of course that takes a giant hit on MPG so it is not a threat. Funny all the cars being pushed by Uncle Sam use fossil fuel. HMMMMM You say diesels use fossil fuel also. Ahhh but they can use diesel made from crops, old cooking grease, coal, natural gas etc etc. Unleaded is a commodity with no other choice but BIG OIL. The big carrot, we are going to give you cleaner air with this fancy complex hybrid technology. Just keep using BIG OIL, cause we don't want to rock the BIG OIL boat. Of course companies like Toyota like it as they have a car that looks green and attracts the pseudo environmentalist element in Hollywood. What better way to sell cars?
You are right. "Some people will never get it". We are being suckered and don't even know it. Give me a real option and I may be interested. Not some complex piece of junk that is designed to last until the warranty is expired. Cars were the final hold out to our throw away society. The Hybrids changed that.
Gary, you know the answer to that - it's obvious. As we as a society UNDERSTAND things better, we can attack the problem with more knowledge and understanding of a problem. We know now that air pollution is in large part caused by vehicles, so we are attacking that with the EPA and legislation intended to help reduce pollution.
gary says "Second you don't find it odd that they keep upping the limits on pollution just to keep diesel technology out of the mainstream?"
It's not some "Grand Poobas Of Gasoline Worship" conspiracy, Gary. It's just that we have decades of diesel exhaust medical studies and we know the danger. we are making progress, and I know because LAST NIGHT for the FIRST TIME I noticed that the diesel pump in Phoenix at the ARCO AM/PM store had a "ULSD used at this pump" sticker on it. That's a big step toward getting diesel back into "vogue." Wait until the "clean diesel engines" get here in 2008, and diesel has a shot of being a big player in the fuel world. Until it's clean, REALLY AND TRULY CLEAN (meaning combining ULSD with a MODERN clean diesel engine) it will have a hard time gaining headway. PATIENCE my friend !!!
Diesel engines add complexity also Gary. That's why there is a diesel upcharge on virtually every diesel model sold in the USA. The technology required to make it CLEAN ENOUGH is also going to add costs and complexity. So please don't act like "Hybrid Chinese Algebra" and "Diesel 2 + 2" because that is indeed a very broad oversimplification.
And remember: Toyota has PLEDGED to reduce hybrid complexity by 50% and reduce cost and complexity while simultaneously INCREASING MPG to around 90 MPG with the next Generation Prius.
Think of hybrid technology in similar terms of computer chips and hard drives: The older models, when the technology was in it's early stages, were HUGE, COSTLY, and COMPLEX. My boss once sold a 20 Megabyte hard drive for $10,000 !!! Now, there are 1-inch hard drives which hold 2 GB of data and cost around $200. And do I need to bring up cellular phones of the early 1980s versus today's phones? Technology ALWAYS get smaller and cheaper.
gary says "Cars were the final hold out to our throw away society. The Hybrids changed that."
Only in your mind. Dead hybrids (the numbers of which you insist will be in the THOUSANDS in a few years, which is highly doubtful) will be recycled at a before-unheard-of 90% rate. That's just means smarter use of junked cars than piling them up in real-estate-sucking junkyards.
And also the 1.9L diesel engine is MORE complex than the 1.5 L gasser engine that is the other part of the gasser/hybrid Prius?
If your post is true, it kind of makes me wonder why there is the hybrid upcharge, which while I was seriously looking at the 2004 Prius was 2x the price of the Honda Civic?
I have heard this cost cutting on the HSD system since hybrids hit this board. Is there any data to substantiate any costs that have been cut. They did put a smaller battery in the TCH than the Prius that probably saved Toyota a couple hundred bucks.
The cost of emissions control is not worth the gain in recent years. I would like to compare my 1990 Lexus LS400 emissions to a 2004 LS430 and see just what the added expense has done in 15 years. I would bet zip, nada.
In other words, you haven't noticed just how many people are suffering from breathing-related health problems. Yet, you keep pointing out how tiny the quantity of hybrids are so far. The facts, they contradict your claim.
SULEV was brand new when Prius was first introduced. It took quite a bit of repetition to make people finally acknowledge that the drop of smog-related emissions between that current clean standard (ULEV) and the new one (SULEV) was a major difference. It's 72.4 percent. That's quite significant! And with so few vehicles having that rating on the road still to this day, how could they have possibly made an observable difference yet?
To further discredit your remark, note that the SULEV rating duration is an additional 20,000 miles. The later in the life of a vehicle, the harder it is to remain clean. So the additional 50,000 miles that PZEV adds to ULEV is undeniably another big step forward. But since so few of vehicles have that rating, what difference could that have made from 10 years ago yet?
Clean is a problem only now being addressed. Low-Sulfur gas availability nationwide happened just this January. Low-Sulfur diesel available nationwide begins today! That means the rollout of emission cleansing devices is still in the very early stages, since they all required fuel that is low-sulfur. So drawing a "red herring" conclusion already is far too premature.
JOHN
74.2% of nothing is still nothing. As you can see from the smog test on our 1990 Mazda 626, the amount allowed is astronomical compared to what a maintained vehicle actually puts out. NO measured 12 PPM. They allow up to 807 PPM and the average is 237 PPM. You can throw figures out to justify the acceptance of the hybrid technology all you like. It is just not worth the $$$cost.
To further discredit your remark, note that the SULEV rating duration is an additional 20,000 miles. The later in the life of a vehicle, the harder it is to remain clean. So the additional 50,000 miles that PZEV adds to ULEV is undeniably another big step forward.
My answer to that is "HOGWASH". The state that has the most hybrids CA does not test or verity emissions on them. So how do we know they are cleaner than the older less COMPLEX vehicles? We don't, we just have to TRUST some yahoo in a white smock that they are enough cleaner to justify a $5k to $15k premium on the vehicle. Trust but verify?
The other thing is even though SO CA has probably the greatest concentration of hybrids (quite literally in the world) both volumne and percentage, there is absolutely no statistical evidence that it has made ANY measurable difference since it has been on the road, let alone any statistically correlated study of the data (true scientific gibberish for): NO MEASURABLE DIFFERENCE IN THE REAL WORLD. NO WAY NO HOW!!!!
Indeed as you point out, there is ABSOLUTELY NO REQUIREMENT FOR ANY VERIFICATION AT ANY POINT IN THE HYBRID'S SERVICE LIFE !!!!!! Does this strike anyone but Gagrice and me as being completely and UTTERLY disingenuous??? Or is it really, it makes not an iota of difference in the real world (and we dont really want any verification )!!???
Any scientist who makes a pronouncement with absolutely no testing or verification, such as what hybrids are in effect allowed to do) is literally thought of as a "loony" and not long remaining in the scientific community.
I can also post the results of my State of California "SMOG CHECK TEST ONLY" (station) SMOG CHECK VEHICLE INSPECTION REPORT, 10 year (116,000 miles) (10/04) on a 1994 TLC or Toyota Landcruiser, you know the hated gross polluters of the known world if not the planet, Dr. Jeykylish at the end of the meager warranty period, etc, etc..
RPMs are 631/2596
% C02 are 14.6/14.5
% 02 are .1/.3
HC(PPM) are
MAX 100/180
AVE 26/11
MEAS 1/2
C0 (%) are
MAX 1.00/1.10
AVE .00/.10
MEAS .00/.00
Result
Pass/Pass
Verified? Obviously!!! Given the results, THEY should have PAID ME the 100 dollars to have taken the TEST!! It was a complete and utter WASTE OF TIME, energy (had to drive 600 miles becaused they REFUSED to do the test where it was garaged at the time) money because they didnt do it free and resources for it was a trip I really wanted/HAD to make!! The second 10 year "mandatory" test and I am guessing at the 225,000 mile mark should be SOS DD (same old stuff different day)
I am also sure it did not go unnoticed but this SUV has better numbers than the "heralded" small cars the government wants all of us to get into????
When India catches up with the demand in Japan and the UK they may sell a few to US.
All along, clean advocates have been saying "X" is the highest level of pollutant the body can tolerate. Efforts were made to reduce from "XXXX" to "XXX" in an affordable way. That milestone, which took many years to accomplish, was celebrated. Then the next phase began. Reduction from "XXX" to "XX" was achieved many years later. They celebrated again. The ultimate goal still hadn't be met yet, but it was an undeniable step forward.
Then the greenwashers chime in, saying the next step is in vain. Going from "XXXX" to "XX" didn't help, so why bother?
Duh! Since emissions are still beyond tolerance, of course new cases of asthma, sinus allergies, and worse breathing problems continue to emerge. We still haven't dropped below the threshold to prevent that.
They want you to believe we've come far enough. They want you to believe that final step isn't worth it. They want you to lose hope. That's sad.
JOHN
I think you are beating the wrong dog. Those ailments Have been proven to be caused by excessive planting of crops in areas that were once void of all that pollen. AZ was the place for asthma victims until they irrigated the state and made it uninhabitable for those with allergies.
No doubt in my mind you are dead wrong on the cause of asthma and allergies.
If what you are saying is correct why do allergies only crop up during seasons of high pollen count?
PS
I don't have to use someone else's algorithm to figure out the truth. It is called common sense.
Who said cause? There is not a single source. Smog contributes.
Of course, this isn't the first time you've disagreed with the American Lung Association.
JOHN
Ironically enough, I agree with John on this. Which is why I'm very happy to see the new clean diesels starting to show up, and even happier to see GM about to deluge the market with a variety of Hybrids.
I think John would probably agree, if he didn't have a transparently Toyota-Only agenda.
But where you could really slay is if you took the TDI and put a IMA/BAS type hybrid system on it. You'd avoid the complexity of HSD (and owning a Prius I fully admit HSD is a technological masterpiece and nightmare at the same time) and increase efficiency even further.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I do often wonder what the performance and mpg would be with the TDI weighing 474#'s less. Of course the opposite comparison (how would the Honda Civic run with 474 #'s MORE would do) is very easy to do. Just put three more folks in it. (150#'s per person or 3.16 people) vs a TDI with just the driver. (Unfortunately) The effects are pretty predictable.
My take is emissions mitigation has been and should be a constant improvement sort of affair, as it has been for leaded regular to unleaded regular and current incremental improvements. So as it applies to diesel "get over it" so to speak, remove the bias and unrealistic lead times against diesel and "motor on ". There is no way unleaded regular could have passed the unrealistic time frames the anti diesel folks wish to enforce for diesel.
They absolutely hate my broken-record posts. Over and over and over and over again, I sight the emission ratings. Not changing the subject makes them absolutely crazy.
The future scares them. They fear the computer industry, knowing it is doing everything in its power to improve battery technology. So whether or not the automotive industry invests in research, they'll end up with better (higher power density and lower prices) anyway. They don't have to do anything. The by-product of portable computers, cell-phones, MP3 players, bluetooth devices, digital cameras, DVD players, etc. will be something the hybrids will also take advantage of.
And of course for spite, I sometimes point out how biodiesel causes increased NOx emissions. That really ticks them off, especially with all the recent attention to ethanol... which does exactly the opposite. The fact that I've been using E10 in my Prius for over 6 years irritates too.
Both the diesel and the "assist" hybrid supporters have a lot to lose. So special occasions like now (ULSD availability) invites their efforts to distract from the ultimate goals of *BOTH* emission & consumption reduction.
JOHN
They absolutely hate my broken-record posts. Over and over and over and over again, I sight the emission ratings. Not changing the subject makes them absolutely crazy.
The future scares them. They fear the computer industry, knowing it is doing everything in its power to improve battery technology. So whether or not the automotive industry invests in research, they'll end up with better (higher power density and lower prices) anyway. They don't have to do anything. The by-product of portable computers, cell-phones, MP3 players, bluetooth devices, digital cameras, DVD players, etc. will be something the hybrids will also take advantage of.
And of course for spite, I sometimes point out how biodiesel causes increased NOx emissions. That really ticks them off, especially with all the recent attention to ethanol... which does exactly the opposite. The fact that I've been using E10 in my Prius for over 6 years irritates too.
Both the diesel and the "assist" hybrid supporters have a lot to lose. So special occasions like now (ULSD availability) invites their efforts to distract from the ultimate goals of *BOTH* emission & consumption reduction.
JOHN
Until I read this post I had respect for your passion and enthusiasm for hybrids and I took in some of what you wrote even if I did not agree 100%.
All that is gone, with me, you have lost all credibility and validation. You have said in so many words in this post that all you are out to do is antagonize and discredit anyone with an opposing view.
Considering you up-hill battle I do understand you antagonistic posture, but I take offence to you blatantly admitting too it.
Actually, I think a lot of people will agree with me when I say your posts are kind of pathetically amusing. I particularly love how you never answer anyone else's questions, rather you try to avoid them by changing the subject.
You're like a petulant child on the wrong side of an argument.
I just looked at the American Lung Association site. Funny they did not mention smog as a factor for lung disease. They do mention several times in there initial statements that SMOKING is the leading cause.
But then the subject was sinus and allergies. They are not related to lung disease that I know of. When I point out the major cause which is Pollen you change to some other area that suits your lost cause.
You are trying to make an argument with no facts or data to back it up. No one here is denying that LEV, ULEV, SULEV & PZEV are sets of rules from the EPA. My argument is the EPA & CARB make the rules to fit the agenda. With little or no research into the practicality.
Cases in point:
CARB & to a lesser extent the EPA have the idea that a car can burn fuel and not pollute at all. CARB passed the 10% ZEV mandate. The Clinton administration got the automakers involved with PNGV. We were subsidizing the automakers building a hybrid. Toyota was left out of the government giveaway and started their own hybrid research. Japan was subsidizing the R&D for hybrids trying to live up to the soon to be signed Kyoto treaty.
All this high tech complexity yields a hybrid that is not as clean as the VW non-hybrids. So where is the advantage other than you pay $3k and up premium to save a few hundred bucks in gas bills. Not practical. HYBRIDS are not practical for mainstream AMERICANS.
For someone that is so into super clean emissions I would be ashamed driving a Prius that only rates an EPA "8" in 45 out of the 50 states. Shameful just shameful :sick:
I disagree with this point.
The Prius is not available in a non-hybrid, so it's impossible to know how much the hybrid premium is. However, it's safe bet to say that with just a regular 1.5L gasser engine, the Prius would slot in around 15K or so.
The Highlander has a roughly 7K premium over the non-hybrid.
The Camry has a 7K premium over a non-hybrid version.
Granted, some of the premium is content... but I think it's safe to say HSD costs roughly 5K.
Hope for what? I can breath fine here in CA with next to no PZEV/SULEV cars as a percentage. I don't think you know what it was like to have your chest ache from the smog. I was raised in LA and know what smog does to your breathing. We are doing good. If they would just clean up the ships, trains, planes and heaving equipment we would be doing great. Instead CARB and EPA throw up this smokescreen that says they are doing something by forcing SULEV. When one business jet puts out more NOx than 500 diesel cars. I have a friend that is trying to get the Marines to move out into the desert. Their new fighter plane puts out 4 times more NOx than the last generation fighter. Miramar field is in the middle of a huge suburban area. And you are worried about some little VW TDI polluting. Total nonsense that is all it is.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It is gratifying to see that more of you finally realize what this guy is about. I do not engage him any longer because when you back him into a corner he does not respond. He simply disappears or changes the subject, as some of you have discovered, because he has trapped himself.
I have asked for responses from him several times in the past a still waiting. I have been to his website and it has a significant number of factual errors. He puts himself out there as an expert about the Prius and he is not.
I have asked for responses from him several times in the past a still waiting. I have been to his website and it has a significant number of factual errors. He puts himself out there as an expert about the Prius and he is not.
I too have caught him spreading blatant misinformation not only about the Prius (spreading misinformation about a recall), but about cars in general (he claims skinnier tires grip the road better because rollerblades work that way). His usual response when you catch him and call him on it is that you're personally attacking him.
Problem with all three of them is that they are built in Thailand and there is a 25% import tax on them. Tax is called the "Chicken Tax".
All three trucks would be sold in US today if the tax is eliminated. Probably not with the diesel engines, but you never know......