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  • through October are about even. The Boxster is really hot, the 911 is doing OK and the Cayenne is on the skids. (Bye, bye Cayenne: Hello, Panamera!)

    Cayenne sales for the month: -46.8%
    Cayenne sales 2005 year to date: -26.5%
    Boxster sales for month: +362%
    Boxster sales 2005 to date: +210%
    911 sales for month: +16.8%
    911 sales 2005 to date: +2.0%
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 60,704
    Do you have the raw numbers? I'd be surprised if the Cayenne wasn't still the overall leader in number of units sold...

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  • still 42.6% of total Porsche sales in October.

    Porsche needs the volume/income the Cayenne provides, although the Boxster and 911 combined outsell it.

    IMO the Panamera sedan (with coupe and convertible variants) would replace Cayenne's volume and be much more in character with Porsche's image.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 56,774
    Lots 'o reasons but 16 LeMans wins (outright wins, none of this "in class" business) couldn't hurt the marketing. Not many cars can claim that. Heritage is a good sales tool that requires very little horn-tooting.

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  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,394
    Oh I quite agree that Porsche's great racing heritage is the keystone of their appeal but let's not knock the in-class victories. They didn't win Sebring outright until 1960
    and they didn't win at LeMans until the emergence of the Porsche 917 in 1970. Before that there were scads of in-class wins that earned for Porsche the reputation as the sturdiest, best engineered of sports cars.

    The expenditures involved in co-engineering the Cayenne took Porsche out of big time sports car racing for seven years which is why I still hate the thing. I'm starting to get over it since Porsche's new RS Spyder LMP-2 is now running in ALMS.

    It took an in-class win ;) in the LMP-2 class at it's maiden race this fall at Laguna Seca. A Porsche took 3 of the 4 classes at Laguna Seca, losing the overall and LMP-1 in which they did not compete.

    There are some who believe that the Penske-Porsche RS Spyder is capable of
    winning ALMS or LeMans races outright. I wouldn't know but it seems possible since Audi seems to be winding down it's LMP-1 program.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 56,774
    Ah yes, all true but the outright wins separate you from the pack. It's a more exclusive club. Outright win means you beat all comers from anywhere in the world. Everybody loves a winner.

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  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    Andy, Since Porsche ran in only two of the four classes at LS it would have been tough to win in three. The P1 winner:
    The Zytek chassis became the 15th different marque to win in the ALMS (and sixth in P1), and its engine is the 13th different one to post an ALMS victory (sixth in class).

    Just for the record ...
  • I see you guys metioning Porsche crate motors. I am pricing out weather it is cheaper to rebuild my 87 928 S4 engine or buy a crate motor. Does anyone know where I can find a V-8 32v 928 crate motor???
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Posts: 1,711
    Slimjim, has the original engine in your 928 given up the ghost? How many miles did it have when it went?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 56,774
    You should discuss this in Repair and Maintenance or the Coupes Boards. This is more of a Porsche as a business discussion.

    Or you can e-mail me about 928s and I can help you.

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  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    Many years ago, long before I could have afforded a 911, I questioned why someone whould buy a 911 Turbo instead of a sleek Ferrari 328, Lotus Espirt, or Lamborghini Countach. I thought - and in some ways still do - that the Ferrari was the best looking sports car on the planet. For me, Ferrari defined "exotic", whereas Porsche was more aptly described as "teutonic".

    That is exactly the pattern that most people go thru. I went thru the same learning curve. I used to think that all sports cars were the same...but Porsches are different from Ferraris and other exotics....they are truly every day drivers..... My 928, God rest its engine, would go anywhere and do anything with no problems.... Also the case for the Boxster . The Cayenne has some minor first year teething problems...but mine is doing fine....relatively speaking.

    But, turn the clock forward about 20 years, and when I got to the point where I could afford a nice sports car, the 911's virtues became meaningful. Not the least of which is that it is a car you can drive every day. Perhaps if I were in a higher socioeconomic bracket I would be singing the virtues of a Ferrari that only comes out on sunny weekends once a month. But in 7 weeks, I'm guessing that my 2,900 miles exceeds the average annual mileage of most Ferrari owners by 50%.

    Agree completely. At my friend's house...he uses the 750i and Porsche 911 for everyday commute. He barely drives his 1990 Ferrari Mondial ( he says maybe once a month) and has only 350 miles on the new 2005 Mercedes McLaren SLR. The bulk of miles is on the 911 and Bimmer.

    I certainly would not dispute that some 911's are purchased for purely its "looks" by status seekers looking to impress the crowds. But I've also run into a fair number of other 911 owners that are about as practical as they come.

    I agree also.....but >>
    Why would anyone really be impressed by a 911 ? It is a fairly pedestrian vehicle , a everyman's sports car. Used ones can be had for a good price, and still run strong for years. These vehicles are nice. I think the 968 are also nice...strong 4 cylinder engine that sips gas.
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    it has been my experience that people who buy a Porsche for "posing" purposes soon get rid of it, and are rather disappointed very often. Why? Because for the $$$ they spent, most of the effort went into the car's performance capabilities at the extreme limits, not into comfy cushy things.

    agree entirely... Some of them were more interested in the cup holders....not that I mind them since I put the cell phone and the cup of joe there.

    So I think a lot of the poseurs quickly shuffle off to a Lexus SC430 once they've sobered up to what a Porsche really is.

    or BMW or baby mercedes also... ;)

    Some people do criticize Porsche for not giving people "their money's worth" but that depends on what you think is "worth" the money.

    hey.... Porsche is all about a caddilac ride , right ? ;) ;)

    There is the old cliche that the most brilliant performer/film director/musicians actually create their audience rather than please a ready-made one.

    shifty, you lost that opportunity...cause you really oughta be into philosophy....
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    Lots 'o reasons but 16 LeMans wins (outright wins, none of this "in class" business) couldn't hurt the marketing. Not many cars can claim that. Heritage is a good sales tool that requires very little horn-tooting

    lotsa reasons people buy Porsches....also includes the fact that Porsche made the first 4 wheel drive vehicle in the world...the Lohner Porsche...back in 1901 to 1902.

    So some people criticize Porsche for going into uncharted making the Cayenne...little do they know that the world's first 4 wheel drive vehicle was a Lohner Porsche in 1901-02.

    well, alot of people copied or followed Porsche into 4 wheel drive ( wait, make that "all") since 1902... ;)

    I agree with scotty that panerama may "seem " more Porsche like in image .... even though 4 wheel drive is in the history of Porsche... :)
  • I meant this in the sense that the Panamera is clearly a high performance vehicle and looks the part.

    I don't get 'Porsche vibes' looking at the Cayenne even though it is a very powerful vehicle.
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    I meant this in the sense that the Panamera is clearly a high performance vehicle and looks the part.

    Yes... have a relatively lower weight chasis, add sports tuning, then add a powerful engine that gets relatively good mileage...and it would be a super high performance sedan...hopefully it will look the part too. I think they will use the Cayenne V8 engine in the Panemera.

    I don't get 'Porsche vibes' looking at the Cayenne even though it is a very powerful vehicle.

    I agree....not many people do.....then again, many people do get the 'Porsche 'or 'exotic' or 'sports' vibe when they see it....

    BTW, did you know that a dutch tuner made a cayenne that broke the world speed record for SUV ? Using many of the original parts too .... 193 mph.... :)

    Now Mercedes must be shoehorning the McLaren SLR engine into a ML chasis ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 56,774
    If you look in the engine bay of a Cayenne you will see (essentially) a very familiar looking engine block, with different peripherals---the 928!!

    Now really, if you can recycle all your unused 928 engine blocks, or re-use the tooling, into an expensive SUV -- that has to be very clever business.

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  • Highender - The Panamera can be the basis of a very successful coupe and cabriolet as well.

    Shifty - thanks for the reminder about the 928/Cayenne V-8 connection. This was brilliant: finding a use for a great engine while saving design costs.

    Now the same V-8 gets used in the Panamera series! Tooling and development costs must be nearly zero.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,394
    The presence of "4 Wheel Drive" has nothing to do with my dislike of the Cayenne. I'd kill for a chance to drive a Carrera 4.

    I dislike the Cayenne because it ate the Porsche budget for Prototype Sports Car racing, ending Porsche's reign as the Weltmeister of endurance racing.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    Hiya Shifty:

    Yep.....the V8 layout looks just like the cayenne engine.

    Obviously, Porsche was confident of its V8 engine, ( which was strong and relatively maintenance free) that it just used some of the same parts and similar designs .

    Smart way to do business.
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365

    You are right....It would be interesting to see if they build towards that direction. Given their history, I think they may.......

    I am glad that they did not try to redesign the whole engine..... Most of the problems with the Cayenne ( in some vehicles) are associated with the newly designed parts. Like the over protective car locks, the nav, and the integration of all these components with a central computer.
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    Most people just think that a SUV does not fit the Porsche image...but that image is evolving, just like the world is changing around Porsche. The paradigm shift in all aspects of life requires that one respond to it...or lose out like the dinosaurs who did not adapt to the climate changes.

    If anything, I think that Porsche forgot its 4 wheel drive roots and offroad roots...( they built some mean military vehicles during WWII, though it was for Hitler) .

    Porsche has lots of experience in offroad and 4 wheel drive, imho. I think that the company, if anything, got into the SUV phenom TOO LATE !! They should have heeded thier inner business sense,,,,instead of cower to the manufactured sense of image that Porsche can/should only build sports cars. I think they would have sold a lot more Cayennes if they got into it earlier, instead of 2003, when sales was tapering off.

    Don't get me wrong... I agree that sports and performance is what Porsche is all about.. I just think they proved it by making an SUV that can outperform most cars on the roadways. That is a tough nut to crack..since the parameters of offroading vs high performance are mutually exclusive, or so it seemed, until Porsche proved it could be done.

    I dislike the Cayenne because it ate the Porsche budget for Prototype Sports Car racing, ending Porsche's reign as the Weltmeister of endurance racing

    Oh, OK....I understand. But I would like to think of it this way....Porsche is a smart company that evolved in accordance with the changing climate, and thus ensured its own survival and independence. It now has , what, maybe $5 billion in the bank....CASH ! Because of the Cayenne, it now can continue its legacy of providing high performance vehicles, without compromising its image, and get back into racing and maybe even road rallys.

    If it did NOT produce the Cayenne back a few years ago, Porsche may very well now be a subsidiary of FORD or GM...with thier associated pitfalls. ;)
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,394
    With SUV sales dropping thru the floor it remains to be seen whether or not Porsche should've just bypassed the SUV phenomenon altogether.

    SUVs are turning out to be, well...dinosaurs. :P

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365 remains to be seen if Porsche and other car makers can squeeze more $ out of SUVs...or should forfeit the market and concentrate on the next phenom ....

    As to whether they should have bypassed it....the answer, in my opinion, is NO. This is coming from someone who has owned quite a few Porsche products and driven many of them. I am glad they made the Cayenne. Except I lament that they got into the market tooo late....and the Bimmer took away alot of sales. Porsche was and is the only car maker who could make a true SUV that could offroad and perform like a sports car....that in and of itself is a testament to the engineering and design capabilities of Porsche . I think they will continue to sell, though not to the people who really just need a Toyota Corolla .

    SUVs are 'old' for the ones who are just using them like cars and for the image. But for those who use them to get thru snow and for the safety and height advantage...they are true godsend for the family.
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    So, what do you all think about the next evolution of Porsche ?

    Will they try to regain the glory in racing of yesterday?

    Will they continue to sell the 911 and boxsters ?

    Will Panemera be a success , if they indeed go thru with it? I know they decided to go ...but it will be a few years before we see anything.

    the big question:

    Will they put a hybrid engine into a Porsche product ?
    They have been talking with Toyota. Can they come up with a German hybrid engine with more efficiency ? Will that turn off all the Porschephiles ? Is the market going in that direction >??
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Porsche was and is the only car maker who could make a true SUV that could offroad and perform like a sports car....

    I have no strong personal opinion regarded the "should they have" with respect to the Cayenne. However, I do wonder about the large inventories of leftover 2005's that many dealers have and whether or not Porsche is going to be taking a financial hit on them.

    Frankly, I always thought the Cayenne market was rather limited, especially since the "off-road" capability that they might have would almost necessitate a second set of wheels and tires. The low profile tires on Cayenne S or Turbo are hardly made for logging roads.

    But now, when you take into consideration that consumer confidence is not great (we are seeing home prices decline in our area, finally), gas prices are still high, the tax deductions of 6,000 lb SUV's have been watered down adn are going away, etc., I would not want to be a Porsche dealer with 20 2005 Cayenne S's on his lot.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 56,774
    I don't see hybrids as a lasting technology. I think people are once again counting out the ol' piston engine way too early electric car and rotary engine builders found out to their regret. The piston engine just needs a new fuel whereas hybrids need a whole new subset of technology AND new fuel.

    But as a marketing gimmick or "feel good tech" for Porsche? Hard to say. I don't think 911 buyers care about "gas mileage" but maybe Cayenne drivers would.

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  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    I think the SUv market was ...WAS...quite large..back a few years ago....but Porsche came to market with Cayenne a little late...

    I hope they find buyers for those left over cars. Guess they will have to discount them.

    I think realestate prices may come down also. Gasoline has been going down...but heating cost will go up .

    Have fun in your 911, habitat...!!
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    agree that boxster and cayman and 911 owners really do not have to worry that much about gas prices...but may be the cayenne least the ones who want a 'porsche ute', but are also sensitive to gas prices, will prefer a ' hi tech hybrid model...probably enabling it to get more than 25 mpg....
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 56,774
    Hard to say, hard to say. Some surveys done of luxury car drivers indicate that they would indeed pay $5 or $6 a gallon, if they had to, to keep their cars. I'm not sure what their breaking point is. I guess it depends on how much cash you're sitting on. To someone like Bill Gates of course, the price of a Cayenne itself is nothing--it is essentially "free" to him. It's like me or you spending a dime.

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  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    Didn't take a link but saw that Porsche reported record profits, I'm sure someone will find the link. The question is, does that make it a good company or does that make it a good marketing company? Some how I'd have to be thinking that I might have paid too much but then again I'm just somebody that loves to pass higher priced cars at the track. Are there any base 911 owners that have run under 2:00 at Sears Point on street tires, I'm guessing that might not be too hard with turbos?
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