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Comments
The older TDI (up till 2004) the oil can be found at Wallmart.
Since this forum is specificcaly for the 2006... I have to assume we are also talking about 2006 TDI... you are absolutely correct that the recommended oil for the "pumpe Duse" TDI engine is very hard to locate in North America. It is defanately not available at Wallmart.
When you talk about automobile owners that choose to not use the recommended oil.... It is not the fault of the vehicle if there are problems resulting from consence choices of the vehicle owner.
Anyone that blindly buys a product without knowing how to take care of it or choses to ignore the proper maintenance procedures is likely to NOT be the same folks that are reading these forums.
I have said this previously... A VW is not a good choice for folks that want a "drive-n-forget" automobile. It is a different class of vehicle intended for a different class of people.
But are they really? What class of people are you talking about? We are comparing the Civic and the Jetta on this thread. That I think is assuming that we are talking about reasonably overlapping domegraphics. My wife and I are very likely to shop between a Civic Si and a GTI or a GLI, and I think a lot of other people would shop between the EX and the 2.5.
You seem to believe that VW's are designed for auto enthusiasts only, but that certainly is NOT how they are marketed with their cute ads. The reallity is that (and not to be a sexist) most of the VW owners that I see around here are college girls, and I highly doubt that majority of them are enthusiasts. Doesn't VW have a responsibilty to make cars that are suitable for the demographics that they market towards? Honda sure does, although they tend to overprice their cars.
The very specific VW Jetta TDI concerns and issues should be taken to that discussion at that link.
Do we have other things to say about the features and attributes of the Civic vs those of the Jetta - regardless of whether it is a TDI?? Or are we done here?
To surmise, We have discussed;
Engineering philosophy differences which lead to very different approaches to the way the cars are designed and ultimately maintained.
The fact that these 2 automobiles are not really in the same "class". (VWs small car is not even sold in North America)
Honda tends to be more reliable with lesss owner-input (practically ignore regular maintenance)
VW tends to handle better, have higher-quality interiour materials and is significantly more rust-resistant. (12-year/ unlimited-milage warantee to back it up)
Honda can become booring. Seating less comfortable. Does not offer ESP and other traction-aiding options.
VW offers "traction control", "Electronic DIfferential lock" and "ESP"...all of which enhance safety/traction and ultimately give the driver a sense of being "in control"
VW is usually seen as "fun to drive" in most 'comparos'. VW has history of being exceptinally safe in an accident. (for a small car)
Honda service-departments tend to be very good at making customer feel good and 'make things right'.
VW service-departments tend to be very good at NOT dealing with customer-complaints very well.
I am sure I have missed some of the comparison-points... do others have intelligent words to add to this summary?
I have owned both, currently driving the Civic.
I drive a long distance daily and find the Civic, "almost" as comfortable as the Jetta.
The Jetta holds the road better, absolutely it does as I know from driving both in very windy wet conditions.
The Jetta gives you a feeling of safety where the Civic is just another normal car of high reliability. You know you will get you there every time.
Getting there in extremely rough weather conditions is where the Jetta shines, IMO by far with all the extra safety features not even offered on the Civic.
The Jetta does cost more, but you get more. The Civic is affordable, but if you're in a terrible accident, where does the cost factor come into play?
I had trouble with the Jetta I owned, and I will take some of the blame only because I refused to jump thru all the hoops required to resolve the issue. It has yet to be determined whether I will drive a Civic for the next several hundred thousand miles or whether I will again be sitting in a Jetta, that part is in VW's hands. I will let you all know what happens, for better or worse.
Jetta is in a different league than the Civic.
Actually, the MkV Golf and Jetta are the same platform, same inside size, and same level of refinement (one is hatchback, the other has a huge trunk). So I can't agree with the above statement.
While the Civic is similar in size, I still would say that they are not truly in the same segment. They mostly appeal to different customers.
Sometimes, potential buyers are not aware of the differences between these two cars, or are not really sure what they want in their own car (until they have driven it for a few 1000 miles and then decide they don't like it -- or actually like it very much). Most of the discussions in this thread revolve around these two issue. Perhaps, better marketing by VW could help resolve this. They have hired a new company...
Both manufacturers have smaller, less equipped, entry level cars are currently not sold in the US.
At any rate, Golf/Jetta should be considered by buyers who prefer a solid built, refinement, great handling, and engines that have a lot of torque no matter what gear/rpm you are in. However, if you are extremely worried about one additional unscheduled visit to your dealer once a year, VWs are not for you.
Civics sometimes have better fuel economy, and are cheaper in some configurations. They don't offer the same feel of luxury or handling, and have to be revved really high to have any horsepower to speak of. Of course, if you drive them that way, you lose the mileage advantage. They are, statistically, unquestionably somewhat more reliable than VWs. Whether this difference in reliability is a deciding factor for your purchase, depends largely on your personality.
Both are relatively safe cars, although Golfs and Jettas in my opinion have an edge, there. In VWs, you have a lot more steel around you. The weight difference shows it.
Finally, most prospective Jetta shoppers I know cross-shop it with the Accord, which is perfectly understandable.
Both Honda and VW/Audi deliver a lot of innovative, well-engineered products, in my opinion. If you question VW, just look at the TFSI and the new twin-charged TSI engines; or the DSG transmission. On the flip side, Honda has advanced hybrid technology and knows how to build engines that on paper get both good mileage and decent hp (although not both at the same time, in real driving; and any hp to speak of comes right when you need to shift into next gear). That is, Honda has always been better at mass-marketing their products.
LOL having a hard time admitting something?
Come on, if the difference between the perennial "recommended" spot in the CR reliability survey and the perennial "worst pick" is "somewhat", then what would be "definitely"?
While I do agree that VW has a very good core technology, they fail in attention to detail. On the other hand, Honda is definitely no less in terms of technology. Your criticism towards Honda's high revving engines does not make too much sense to me. Sure you have to rev a VTEC engine to get the power, and doing so will reduce the mileage. But even so, the EPA gas mileage figure for the new civic is 30/38, as opposed to that of Jetta 2.5's 22/30. 8MPG is NOT a small difference, and I guarantee you I can rev that little 1.8 i-VTEC all day and still get much better mileage than mildly driven 2.5. And how is having redline at 5800RPM better than high-revving?
The bottom line is that the 2.5 in Jetta is just breathtakingly low-tech, enough so that when they announced the spec I couldn't believe my eyes. (and then of course the rubbish about borrowing Gallardo's engine gave me a good long laugh) It is no match for Honda's inline 4. I hate to admit it, but Honda does make the best 4-pots in the world.
On the other hand, I do agree that the Jetta is more likely to be safer than Civic. Even though the Civic gets excellent crash test rating, somehow I feel that it may not translate too well to real world safety.
http://www.iihs.org/brochures/ictl/ictl_4dr.html
As you can see, Civic is not too bad in terms of injury/collision ratio, but not nearly as good as that of VW's. But then VW's can't match that of my WRX either. :P (yes, too many idiots driving Imprezas, believing AWD makes them invincible, but at least Subaru makes their cars idiot proof)
I'd take a Civic every time over the Jetta, even if someone gave me a Jetta.
You have reminded me about somthing that made me dislike my civic. The engine was so whimpy at idle that I seemed to stall it at least once a day. I have been driving manual xmissions all my life but the Honda engine is just so highly strung (have to wind it up to get any power out of it)
On the other hand, my Jetta TDI has enough touque at idle that I NEVER have to even apply any throttle when I release the clutch...it just pulls like a tractor.
VW engines are RENOWEND to have a nice-wide powerband that is almost dreamy to drive. There is power at nearly any RPM.
Thinking about my experience with Honda - I very much disliked the fact that it was SOOO easy to stall unless the engine was reved up. Not very easy to drive smoothly.
If my Civic had not been a 4 wheel drive... I would not have kept it for 150,000 miles. (it rusted so badly that it had huge holes over the rear wheels.)
My personal Honda Civic needed head-gasket replaced TWICE in 150,000 miles.... Compared to owning at least 6 VWs over the years that have NEVER EVER needed the engine opened up for major repairs. (at least 700,000 miles across all of them)
I am aware of at least 2 other Hondas that also blew head gaskets...so my experience was not unique.
UPDATE
The current engine choices are 2.5, 2.0TFSI, and 1.9TDI.
I can say I've had pretty extensive experience with automobiles as well, especially Hondas. What can I say, '89 accord had zero engine troubles when I sold it w/ ~180k in '97 when I purchased my '98 civic ex. At 144.5k miles, again, zero engine problems. My parking lot is filled with hondas of all ages, I would imagine they are largely problem free as well. Sounds as if you just had really crappy luck as major engine problems and hondas are more likely to be antonyms then most any engine maker.
It's also my understanding that vtec and now i-vtec engines are also renowned for having a pretty flat torque curve. 4300 rpms for max torque isn't exactly high strung. I think one of the neat things about the engine is that it can be revved if you like to because of it's durability. So people like to wring them for the sound, but they are getting the most torque pull pretty low on the rpm range.
I won't say anything about the Jetta because I don't really know about it too much. However, I do know the civic, and I think you are painting the car incorrectly.
Incorrect. It has three choices as already mentioned. It even offers hybrid, whether you like it or not. (I'm not a big fan of hybrid myself, but I admit it is a good showcase of technology)
On the other hand, my Jetta TDI has enough touque at idle that I NEVER have to even apply any throttle when I release the clutch...it just pulls like a tractor.
Sure it pulls like a tractor, since it has an engine like that of a tractor. You know what else is like a tractor? The torque that drops like a rock as the RPM goes up. Yes, so it's a Diesel. Your point? It seems that you are very knowledgeable and experienced in this field, and yet you are comparing a Diesel to a Gas engine. Should I then criticize the TDI for its low redline and limited torque band? What would be the point of that, when it is just the nature of the beast? Now if you want to compare the new 2.5 I5 to the Honda 1.8, you are more than welcome. While they are both gas engines, the difference is night and day.
I can see why you prefer your TDI over Honda VTEC. Certainly TDI is easier to drive, with plenty of low-end torque. But then I personally find low-revving engines to be lazy, and not rewarding when driven hard. I'm by no means a street racer, but my engine tends to see the redline at least a few times a week. I enjoy the sound it makes at 7000RPM, and the sense of exilleration.
To me, a modern gas engine with a 5800RPM redline is just unacceptable. Have you seen dyno graphs of i-VTEC engines? Completely flat torque curve all the way to the redline. Power basically becomes the function of RPM only, as its torque dependance becomes negligible. This means at any given gear, the acceleration is constant at any RPM to the factor of air resistance and drivetrain loss. While such engine may not be your cup of tea, it certainly is highly advanced engineering.
But 128lb of torque at 4300 RPM is just not for me, Jetta TDI (DSG) is a lot more suitable for me. I love it so far.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=108019#18
After much criticism on the lukewarm previous generation, it seems like Honda has hit the bulls eye with this gen. Incidentally, the same have been said by many about the upcoming GTI.
It's going to be very interesting.
Keep in mind, that everyone has differnt personal experiences...I personally dont want in the middle of this debate, but wanted to point out that my gradfather drives a 1987 Civic Wagon (1.5 liter 12 valve 4-cyl), it currently has 270,000 miles on it. You know what all has gone bad on it? The ignition, and one alternator. Not bad for that length of time and miles. I also know someone that has been dealt fits by a local dealer, Quality VW to be exact, because her air conditioner quit working. She paid to have it fixed, despite the fact that it was only 2,000 miles out of warranty, and was charged nearly 2 grand because the technicians broke something else while repairing it AND CHARGED HER FOR THEIR MISTAKE! She has finally settled with them, and is going to trade in her VW on a different make of auto very soon (not sure what kind yet).
Everyone has different experiences with cars and people. I have no doubt that VWs have been excellent cars for you, why else would you be stating how wonderful they are to us? Congrats on your cars, buddy!
Just wanted to close the same way you did...I have a new Accord, but kept my 96 Accord with 155k miles on it because it runs trouble free, so my experience isn't unique either!
Thanks for letting me input,
the grad
http://www.websamba.com/mcoupal/suv
And that is exactly what I am doing with VW forever, hanging up on them never to own another product they produce.
They don't care about their customers legitimate concerns or issues. It's no wonder Honda and Toyota are blowing them out of the water.
End of my Jetta Story, forever and ever.
At least what happened in recent years (I think) was that VW utterly failed to catch up with the booming in the late 90's, and couldn't provide the adequate level of customer service with their limited dealer network.
But was it really unavoidable? After all, VW is one of the largest auto manufacturer in the world, and I'm sure they have plenty of resources. If they truly valued the US market, why didn't they step up and do something when they had a chance to? Why sit back and do nothing when it was going well, producing so many unhappy customers that swear they will never buy another VW, and eventually making sure that the boom was just temporary? Why be cheap on customer service when they had a chance to establish something in the US once and for all?
I can only say that VW's strategy in the US has been very short-sighted.
I will also add that the VW Phaeton still confuses the rest of the world. A $60,000 volkswagon?? Resale value of a Phaeton you bought yesterday is $30,000 (per edmunds)
I think that both of us are saying that VW seems to have "lost its identity" in NorthAmerica.
BTW -- The 2006 Jetta has "Electric power steering"... yet another example of bringing to the common folks a technology that no other carmaker has done.
The Honda is a cheap car, made cheap for the frugal minded individual that performs it tasks rather well with a minimum amount of service problems over its service life.
The Jetta is a high-end car priced at the low end with gadgets and functions only found on the leading edge or very high end of the automobile food chain. It handles like, like you can't explain until you drove one, it will take it’s owner a half millions miles down the highway given proper maintenance, and it does these task while making the passengers extremely comfortable with plenty of room, and as an extra bonus it will give you an easy 40 and approaching 50 MPG at every fill up.
End of topic.
Like the fleet-sold $17,990 Chevrolet Mailbu did when it came out two years ago?
End of topic.
I'm glad you are so confident that the end of the topic is met at your last word, but I am afraid you are wrong in that respect. You mention that the jetta is a high-end car priced at the low-end. I disagree. The jetta is a low-end car priced at a mid-sized level.
I'll use facts in my presentation of the Civic's case, if you don't mind some numbers.
Jetta 2.5 MSRP is $21,980 with an Automatic
Civic EX MSRP is $19,060 with an Automatic
The Civic adds the Moonroof and 8 airbags standard (optional on Jetta for a total of $1950, bringing MSRP to $23,930...deep into Accord EX territory). The Civic also has steering wheel mounted audio controls
The Jetta achieves 22city/30hwy MPG (my Accord with 166 hp gets 26/34 and with one less tranny gear). The Civic maintains 30city/40hwy MPG while sacrificing 8 horsepower to the heavier Jetta. The Civic has a legroom advantage, so apparently the Civic has plenty of room too! It has a tighter turning radius, and manages to carry around 500 less pounds than the Jetta (notice I did not use adjectives slamming the VW here; I get slammed from people saying I was hateful when I criticize the VW, but I do nothing but give facts here.)
As far as a VW getting you a million miles down the road, my aunt would love to get 50,000 miles before she has to spend ANOTHER $2,200 on her 2000 model VW. She can't afford driving it anymore since the warranty is over.
As an extra bonus, the Civic hybrid delivers 50mpg on the highway AS WELL AS in town, while being a PZEV vehicle, not emitting noxious fumes and soot in the process, as well as not being known for inherent vibration, as the VW diesel seems to be on these boards.
The Civic is the clear leader as far as value, reliability, forward thinking engineering, and I am not the only one who thinks such. Motor Trend just named it their "Car of the Year" due to its outstanding attributes in the small car class. Your Jetta wasn't a finalist.
End of topic? Probably not.
PS: I have the steering wheel controls and a LOT more than the Civic does
PS: I have the steering wheel controls and a LOT more than the Civic does
You didn't refer to the snow-driving characteristics in your post that I replied to, nor did I. I live in the south, and snow-driving is not an issue here. I question the maturity and safety concern of someone speeding through a bad northwestern winter. With harsh, icy snowy conditions, visibility is usually lowered and traction questionable. I dont care how much your car weighs...a 1.5 ton car sliding uncontrollably across the ice is dangerous for all involved, and speeding past other cars only increases the risks for all involved.
PS: I CLEARLY referred to BASE msrp's, even listed them...the VW.com site lists the Civic EX as having them standard, and the Jetta 2.5 not. I was comparing cars that are close in price (19,600 for Civic EX vs 21,200 for Jetta). Optioning one with almost anything puts you in a different price class (comparable with an Accord, Camry, Mazda 6; all of which offer more room, speed, economy, and reliability for the dollar than the Jetta).
Actually, the Civic does all of these anyway. Legroom by an inch, 0-60 by a second, fuel economy by 10mpg, and reliability at the top of the class rather than near the bottom. Car of the Year, Consumer Reports Best Buy and Reccomended buy for the Civic. Consumer Reports couldn't reccommend VWs b/c of much lower than average reliability in the last 5 years.
P.S.S. You can keep the "holier and snootier than thou" remarks to yourself (i.e. "your little toy...that little car". That little car has more legroom than your heavy VW. Seems that someone in your position would rely more on facts than on personal opinion and personal attacks to attempt to make a point. Grow up. You are the type that make the hosts intervene; not adding useful information to the subject, just attacking someone refuting your OPINION with facts that might enhance another's opinion. Get over yourself and your VW.
I hope you're not one of those drivers who drive on all seasons but believe their car is good enough to handle ice and snow. Those are the drivers that cause accidents. I have got rear ended before by a lady who thought her SUV could handle snow.
Happy Motoring
Both are great cars - except, they clearly appeal to different personalities, needs, and desires. It would serve readers better if you don't only reiterate all these well-known, great features of these cars, but also tell us why something is important to you, and how it affects you and makes a difference.
We know that the civic is cheaper (for a reason, some would say), and undoubtedly more reliable.
The Jetta (and Golf MkV) offer a different package - a more complete package in terms of driving experience and luxury to some, a more expensive one to others. Perhaps balanced by significant lower insurance rates, depending on where you live.
Their engines have very different characteristics. VW engines have a lot of torque down low, immediately available. Of the three available choices, you would have to get the 2.0TFSI to be able to rev it at all (my choice for the best compromise of power and fuel consumption). The Honda engines love to be revved, but you also need to do it to get any power to speak of. On the other hand, if you don't rev it, they are very frugal.
Then there are the looks. Some people can imagine driving the 2.0TFSI engine in the regular Jetta or even in the GLI, but would never even step into a Civic Si. And vice versa.
Glad to have such great choices.
I spent serious money going thru new cars in a very short period of time and I did it with very serious consideration as I am not a rich man. To get on here and be told I am immature when I have been driving for 38 years and have actually owned and lived the buyers experience of BOTH the cars of this topic, well I feel I am a little qualified to make an accurate post.
I am sure many people making posts on here didn't own BOTH the NEW Civic and Jetta in only a few short months like I did but only base their opinions on some rag or someone else’s opinion. I based mine of REAL ONWER’S experience.
The Civic was a fun little car, but after owning the Jetta I felt like I went backwards, and I DID.
The Honda was no way as solid. It handled not even as close and was a lot harder to get used to when shifting when compared to the Jetta. The Jetta has a way better shifting pattern and feel. Low end torque was nonexistent in the Civic so starting out on a steep grade required some good skills where in the Jetta it’s almost like driving an automatic.
I sit in my car for one hour and fifteen minutes everyday twice a day and after getting out of the Civic I would actually limp for a few minutes which never happens with the Jetta. The Jetta has a 12 way power seat with memories, the Civic--Nay. The steering wheel in the Civic is so small, it felt like I was back in my Pedal Car as a child of 50 years ago. At high speeds I had more road noise in the Civic and could hear the tires singing their high pitched whining tune, like at resonant frequency. Maybe that's why the radio gets louder all by itself in the Civic.
I also liked the fact that the Jetta is safer and has options not even available on the Civic especially the ESP, and cold whether package, heated leather seats and fuel economy that is unheard of in a car with so much power, close to 50 mpg on my first fill up. I did 46.5 MPG!
Also, I like the front end of the Jetta a lot better. Driving the Civic felt like I was driving a tow boat pushing ten barges the front end seems so long when looking out. I love the satellite radio, which also is, not available on the Civic. It is nice to listen to music or other things without the constant commercials.
I could go on, but one last thing. I feel less fatigued after a days drive in the Jetta versus the Civic. Yes, the Civic is a nice car least I would have never bought one. But the Civic is no Jetta and to come on here trying to convince the masses that it is, is IMO, foolish.
Also, there is no "end of topic" until no one has any interest in posting here. Calls for "end of topic" are also out of line. If anyone feels this is not a topic worthy of consideration, the door is to your left. :-)
Thanks.
thegrad
It's been a while since I've seen a feature on a car that had me going "wow". The Jetta was full of them, completely new and to me "unheard of". After looking at the prices, they were somewhat close together. To me it was justified to spend just a little more to get a much better car.
It's like comparing the Dodge Neon to a Civic or Toyota. The Neon will get you from point A to point B for cheaper but in no way would it be like driving a more defined car.
This SHOULD be the case; the car has a base price that's 20% higher than the Civic, and with some options, Motor Trend tested one that cost more than an Accord V-6 ($26k+). To get people to buy a car with 100 less horsepower and less room in it than an Accord, it better have some 'wow' features! Can you elaborate on some of these 'unheard of' features?
PS>Maybe I can get by with this posts without being insulted? (not you i'm referring to, lore)
Looking at just "peak horsepower" of an engine without mentioning the RPM at which is delivered makes no sense. A peak horsepower that is generated at some ungodly high RPM will NEVER be useful to anyone behind the steeringwheel. It is only relavant to someone that wishes to quote a number. Many engine-makers know that "horsepower" is what buyers look at... so they tune the engine to have a big number (but sacrifice the all-important low-end torque in the process) This sells cars to the uninformed.
On the other hand, all of us are "driving torque" every time we accellerate from a stop. Thus, torque numbers at low RPMs are much more relavant to driving a car than horsepower at high RPMs would be.
VW engines have historically been VERY torquey which means that they deliver the power at RPMs where a driver can USE it.
As an example, my VW TDI is rated at a peak of 90 horsepoower. On paper this looks pretty whimpey. HOWEVER, anyone that has driven a TDI engine can tell you that it accellerates BETTER than most cars with TWICE the horspower rating. My 90 horsepower engine REALLY shines when passing power is needed.
I do not know many people that drive at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) @ 6300 RPM (the RPM wheras peak HP is available on the Honda Civic) Since Redline is 6800 RPM.... this is pretty much unusable power.
BOTTOM LINE: Beware of peak-horsepower numbers tossed around without mention of the RPM at which it is available. These numbers have very little relavance to how much USABLE power is available while driving.
So with the technical stuff said and done... (Torque (lb.-ft. @ rpm))
Honda Civic engine is rated at 128 @ 4300
VW 2.5L engine is rated at 170 @ 4300
It turnes out that the VW engine is MUCH more suited to what drivers actually need from an automobile engine. (wether they know it or not)
he Jetta pays for this at the gas pump however! 22/30? My Accord makes 160lb-ft of torque and 166hp on a smaller engine and gets 26/34 mpg vs the smaller Jetta's 22/30. The Civic gets 30/40 mpg!
under your spirited driving style.
Regardless, I am happy you are impressed.
But I degress...this forum is talking about the 2006 VW Jetta. The 2006 TDI engine has the pumpe-duse engine (cam-powered injection pump for each individual cylinder.)
Why do people try to 'blow you off the road'? Perhaps trying to avoid being behind the diesel exhaust? JUST KIDDING...really though, why are people racing you? I drive in all sorts of traffic (about 30k miles a year combined in both cars of mine) and I can't say someone has ever 'hot dogged' with me, except someone I knew. Apparently the hot dog had a lead on you when he pulled over and gave you the thumbs up, or wouldn't you have blown past him too quickly to see his facial expression and gestures at night.
I believe you mean "niche market".