fintail, do you want to talk about cars or places? I am from HK. Do you know HK has the most luxury cars per square mile in the world? But I assure you all we don't buy them because they are reliable. They are not. We buy them because we are snobs. People there who want reliable cars like taxi drivers buy Toyotas. Everyone in my family own MB or RR and each member owns more than one car since those cars do need services quite often.
was the last thing I heard on the radio of my '79 NYer on the way to Carlisle over the summer, when the mast antenna snapped off, replacing Limbaugh with static of another kind.
Oh, and before I get judged, let me explain. The FM band on that radio quit working for some reason, so I was doomed to AM. And Rush was the only thing I could pick up.
" I run my own business, a very unique one at it. "
Yeah what, a slum lord?
Ummm...there isn't really anything to the west of Medina but water, and then Seattle. So of course I'm east, by about 1.5 miles from where the neighborhood begins.
"he concentration of expensive traffic is going from Medina west to Seattle along 520,"
I'm going to wager you've never been here and you're getting all your info from google. Spend a day in downtown Bellevue, and tell me what you see.
"f you buy a CL today, don't you think by the time it is 3-5yrs old, it will be the "previous generation"?"
As we are at the end of the 220, of course (how very convenient for you to bring that up), but if you bought one at intro, of course not. Comparing a car from the end of the previous generation, a car that is more or less 7 years old, is apples to oranges.
"We are talking about $50k used cars here"
That are 4-5-6 years old and cost 85K new. 50%+ retained value over that timeframe is pretty decent. Lame excuse, indeed.
My bad on confusing your BMW/MB general breakdown claims with S class specifically. But the gist is the same.
"One every week or every other week on flatbeds that I see are MB and BMW of any/all models"
We'll see if you can ante up some photos, then. Someone of your supposed means and abilities should have no problem.
Well. Long time ago if you wanted a reliable car you had to buy German. Then, slowly, Germans moved towards making their cars faster, more stable and so on. Basically, they became performance. They put all kinds of smart equipment, sometimes so smart that it makes you scream in agony (i -Drive). But before the world was in the technological hole in automotive technology and Germans used their experience. Now even China can build a BMW-like car. Some people still think that German cars are special. Not anymore. Also, I don't buy cars from the companies that used POW's and other concentration camp prisoners’ labor during the war to fight against us. Also, Ford was phrased by Hitler for his anti-Jew writings and profited by making military equipment for Hitler's army. I don't help enemies.
"Also, I don't buy cars from the companies that used POW's and other concentration camp prisoners’ labor during the war to fight against us. Also, Ford was phrased by Hitler for his anti-Jew writings and profited by making military equipment for Hitler's army. I don't help enemies."
I understand your sentiments, but that's a hard philosophy to keep pure. After all, your own government imprisoned innocent Americans of Japanese descent during WWII, and used your taxes to support Saddam Hussein in the 1980s.
...what does Limbaugh drive then? I'd bet a loaded American SUV.
In the late 1990s, I was watching "This Week with David Brinkley", and the topic of vehicles came up. I was shocked when George Will said he drove a Ford Explorer! I figured him for the quintessential Volvo driver...
For the same reason that pickup trucks with covered beds and leather seats that weight 4500lbs, suck gas like crazy and are only used to cruise to the mall while talking on a cell phone(i.e SUVs) are also considered status symbols...
They are recognized within the community of non-individualistic, non-thinking-on-their-own, I-better-get-on-the-band-wagon-too yuppie types as STATUS SYMBOLS. This kind of mentality does not take into consideration practicality, usability or reliability; only the "status".
No. I actually derive less than 10% of my income from the apartments. I acquired them when I needed a place in the city for myself. I'm by no means a big-time real estate investor or land-lording for livihood.
I'm going to wager you've never been here and you're getting all your info from google. Spend a day in downtown Bellevue, and tell me what you see.
There's high concentration of cachet cars, then there's high concentration of cachet cars. I used to think that Newbury Street in Boston had high concentration of nice cars on weekends (mostly conertible 3's, Z3's, SLK's and old SL and Ferraris with an occasional Mondena and Diablo here and there); then I moved to where I live now, the downtown roads were clogged by S's, E's, 7's and 5's . . . neighbors with multiple current model AMG's and M's that can't fit in the garage . . .; then I took a business trip to Hongkong, the Rolls-Royce capital of the world . . . while browsing stores in "Central" and talking to friends, I couldn't help but notice the huge number of Rolls and S class passing, and was told that owning an E or 5 was considered a sign of "poverty" -- go figure! I suppose everything is relative.
As we are at the end of the 220, of course (how very convenient for you to bring that up), but if you bought one at intro, of course not. Comparing a car from the end of the previous generation, a car that is more or less 7 years old, is apples to oranges.
Except a 2000 bought at intro would be 6 years old as well, and the resale on the first model year is poor anyway. Besides, if a 2001 is asking for $45k, what makes you think a 2000 would fetch more? BTW, are you now reducing your argument to good resale on intro model year only? Out of an 7-8-yr model run, that's only 10-15% of the model run, and the model is outsold by the sedan from which it is based by something like 10-to-1 (depending on model year) . . . in other words you are making your good resale argument on 2% of cars sold?
That are 4-5-6 years old and cost 85K new. 50%+ retained value over that timeframe is pretty decent. Lame excuse, indeed.
I doubt anyone has had a 2002 for 5-6yrs (please be pricise, 3-4 vs. 5-6 is a huge difference when we are talking about current model cars), and a 2001 CL600 cost well over $100k when new. A 2002 CL500 with options would also be close to $100k when new if not over. Selling at roughly $50k is a 50% drop in 3-4yrs, hardly spectacular resale value retention. Please keep in mind that I have been cutting tremendous slack for you in this disucssion in terms of model choice and model year. As you admitted to, model years other than early years don't retain value well at all; a massive price drop is coming shortly on all 2000-2006 CL's just like what happened to 1999 CL. The far more prevalent S class has much worse resale retention.
We'll see if you can ante up some photos, then. Someone of your supposed means and abilities should have no problem.
I'm rather suprised that you don't see MB's and BMW's (not current S but all models and all years) being helped or need help on regular basis, if indeed you see as many of those cars on the road as you seem to imply (but then again "A LOT" can be as few as 20 ;-) I don't know where you read my means or ability, in case you did not notice, it was explicitly pointed out that DSLR's are not condusive to taking photos while driving by myself.
Not just BMW-like cars. BMW actually builds 3 series and 5 series cars in China, and MB will follow in 2006 (factory under construction since 2004). Audi has been making cars there since 1980's. The most reliable luxury car made in China? A Buick by GM, followed by a Honda Accord that sold for $55k . . . wow! I was quite floored when I heard that.
Yeah, it's funny, but Buicks are one of the big "yuppie cars" of choice for the up-and-coming generation in China. They're everywhere in Beijing, along with Jeeps!
"" I think you're letting your opinion of cars you can't afford drive your arguement."
And I think you're letting your love of a marque cloud your perception. Just my opinion. "
I'm not an MB lover--not my cup 'o tea. Not the road feel or revvy engines i like. I just think scores of broken-down s-classes blocking the roads is hyperbole and manufacture.
just think scores of broken-down s-classes blocking the roads is hyperbole and manufacture.
One score is 20. Half a dozen is barely over 1/4 of a single score. Spread that over 12 months, blocking the roads they do not (although in one case it did, as the car was actually stopped in the middle of the road, at a merge point; not result of accident). Half a dozen over 12 months does however make a meaningful point for statistic MTBF, especially since the competition is 1 and 0 for the same amount of observer miles covered.
"then I moved to where I live now, the downtown roads were clogged by S's, E's, 7's and 5's . . . neighbors with multiple current model AMG's and M's that can't fit in the garage "
That's about how it is in my zip code, and is exactly what I am getting at, I see these things *everywhere*, and they are just cars...to the point that my old fintail turns more heads than a new S. And compared to HK, it's all relative yes. Is HK littered with broken down MB? How about someplace like Vancouver which also has historically had high MB sales? I've spent considerable time there and I don't recall seeing one. I do recall a Rolls on a flatbed, though.
"Besides, if a 2001 is asking for $45k, what makes you think a 2000 would fetch more? "
I never said that, but at the same time, they don't fetch considerably less either.
"A 2002 CL500 with options would also be close to $100k when new if not over"
How many of them on the market are equipped like this? Which other cars can muster 50% after 4 years? Most mainstream cars do far worse. I don't see a massive decrease either, as the W221 is not as huge a leap as we saw from 140 to 220. I searched autotrader for plain old S500 sedans from 00-02 (as 2003 got updates), 23 listings found with within 25 miles from me with an average price 41K and change. It's a massive raw dollar loss from the original price (and much worse on 12 cylinder cars, but you'd have to be crazy to buy one anyway), but as a percentage of original price, which is what is key, it is not underperforming the market. Maybe we're just messed up on semantics. I am not talking about dollars lost.
It'll be fun seeing some pics. I'll snap some if I come across anything too. Today I DID see a W203 C class that was smoking (oil smoke!) but I didn't catch the model.
Autoweek issue Nov 28 had pictures of 2007 S550 with weird fender appendages. Suppose this will be a status symbol in spite of bad styling. In a funny twist, Mercedes is now copying styling (bad) of Japanese Mitsu SUV that has those funny fender like things attached. Wonder if doctors, lawyers, big shots will buy this car for prestige anyway.
I think both of us are starting to realize the futility of trying to describe "many" and "A LOT" when there is no objectivity in what is "many" and how far can still be considered "neighbor," especially since the two of us obviously have different personal experience. It is statisticly reasonable to assume that the number of cars for sale is proportional to the number of cars on the road in a locality . . . we can go to a car sales listing and find out just how many S-class is for sale within the same radius of our repsective zipcodes. How about let's try cars.com? Put in minimum price of $25k to eliminate all the old beaters, and yet maintain a large enough sample to make the study worthwhile, for Bellevue zipcode 98004, we have 28 S-class, mostly 2000 and later models with two owners of mid-90's cars blowing numbers out of their you-know-where. For my zipcode 02481, there are 69 on cars.com, all except for one are 2000 or later, with the one exception being a 99. So that's 28 vs. 69, or more precisely 26 vs 68 for S-class of 2000 model year or newer.
Regarding how much a used car is worth, IMHO, only the lowest prices on the for-sale listings are meaningful, not the "average." The entire listing consists of asking prices, not market clearing prices. People can ask sun and moon and then some for their used cars (like those owners of mid-90's cars), doesn't mean they will get it. For a given model year with comparable mileage, only the lowest priced cars have a realistic chance of getting sold (after some bargaining). From what I see here, the 2000-2002 S500 are selling close to lower-30's, 2003's are selling in the mid-to-upper 40's. Losing nearly 60% over 2-3 years is pretty bad value retention. 40-45% value retention is much much lower than the projected lease residuals. The 2002 and 2003 S500 are selling within a couple thousand of LS430 of the repsective model years, despite a whopping $30+k price difference in original MSRP.
But how is cars.com info determined? By zip? The people who buy these cars are usually not the type to bother with selling them privately. 98004 has but a couple car dealers, those all exist to the east and in other cities. So I don't know how accurate that info may be. I think autotrader is more representative as from my experience it has more info. And for the pricing aspect, maybe it's easiest to simply use Edmunds TMV. I'd compare S430 to the LS too, they are really more comparable as a whole. But it in the end it's moot...I simply don't see frequent broken down MBs of any type here, and most people echo that observation. That's what this is all about. I promise I'll try to snap a pic if I see a disabled one. I wonder what I'll see tomorrow.
I don't think either of our zip codes has big auto dealers simply because of land price. On the other hand, there usually are big premium auto dealers nearby towns like ours. The default search distance on cars.com is 30 miles. That covers the surrounding towns that feed off the high standard of living towns. Dealers outside 30-50 mile radius can't really get a piece of the action. If there is a dearth of dealers within 30-50 mile radius, then it's an indication that there isn't enough premium buyers to support dealers. Out of the 68 S500 of 2000 vintage or later for sale within 30 miles of my location, only 4 are by individual sellers; all the rest are by dealers. Cars.com get its data from national network of newspapers (places that dealers advertise) plus a direct online advertisements. I'm not familiar with Autotrader, which yields 25 vs. 27 instead of the 28 vs. 69 from the cars.com search earlier. Seems to me the cars.com search has a larger sample size.
As for comparing S430 resale to LS430, the two sell for practically the same amount for 2003 model despite their $15-20k initial price diffrence when new. That's roughly 52% value retention vs 68% value retention . . . huge difference!
simply don't see frequent broken down MBs of any type here, and most people echo that observation.
I suppose there is a definitional issue WRT "frequent," what kind of roads you drive and frequency of MB's. If there is indeed a 68 vs. 26 difference as cars.com data seems to suggest, I should be seeing nearly three times many MB breakdowns as you do, assuming I live in similar relative location within my community as you do in yours. On top of that, I'm within 1/3 mile of Rt128/I-95 beltway, roughly 1 mile from I-90, and three houses (over the small hill behind my house, about 120 yards) from a divided state highway . . . More traffic, more breakdowns.
I just search autotrader for all 2000-2002 S430 and S500 within 25 miles of 98004 (no AMG or V12 cars included, no coupes either) and it returned 56 matches, with an average price of just over 39K. I don't know what you're using.
Oh wait I see...you limited to just S500. I'm looking at both cars
I can't compare S430 vs LS430 resa le unless I know exactly what is being compared - options, conditions, etc.
I drive on everything from interstates to urban streets. If you should see three times what I do, that's still three times zero.
There's no point in all of this, and as I do go out, sleep, etc, I will just say this - I won't change your mine, you won't change mind. I'll easily admit these cars aren't what they used to be - I've driven every S class from fintails to W220s, and I can compare them. But the new ones aren't as bad as some make them out to be, either. And as used cars, they still do outperform most of the market in retained value, which is something for cars of such ferocious maintenance needs.
S500 only, and 50 miles around 98004; that returned 25 only.
I drive on everything from interstates to urban streets. If you should see three times what I do, that's still three times zero.
On the other hand, 1/3 of 7 is roughly 2 . . . you could easily have missed 2 stranded cars in a year if your driving pattern is different from mine. Whatever road you are driving on, you are obviously not seeing enough of them to see breakdowns first-hand.
.... Breakdowns Smakedowns ... all vehicles can breakdown .. but here's some more figures that you two can argue about ..
02 MB S500's ==== 11/11/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $38,850 18,917 Above WHITE 8G A No 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $39,500 26,432 Above BLACK 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $34,000 32,492 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $38,250 35,629 Above BLACK 8G A Yes 11/16/05 BAY CITI Regular $35,400 39,629 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $34,000 41,327 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $33,250 43,520 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $35,500 44,915 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $33,000 46,823 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Regular $33,000 47,167 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $34,000 47,832 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $32,500 47,971 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes 11/30/05 SEATTLE Regular $31,500 48,375 Avg LT GOLD 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $33,500 52,633 Avg GLA WHT 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $32,500 55,708 Avg SCLVER 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $31,250 56,158 Avg BRI SIL 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $30,750 57,078 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $33,000 58,827 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $32,000 59,831 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $32,500 60,238 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes 11/04/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $28,350 61,837 Below SILVER 8G A Yes 11/02/05 CADE Lease $31,000 65,075 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $29,500 69,807 Below SILVER 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $28,500 69,944 Below BRI SIL 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $32,500 71,364 Avg BRI SIL 8G Yes
====
02 LS430's:
11/11/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $29,925 37,540 Avg WHITE 8G A Yes 11/22/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $25,750 44,255 Below SILVER 8G A Yes 11/11/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $29,400 46,375 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes 11/30/05 BAY CITI Regular $29,500 48,199 Avg MAROON 8G A Yes 11/16/05 BAY CITI Regular $30,000 50,885 Avg WHITE 8G A Yes 11/22/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $26,200 51,834 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes 11/29/05 SAN DIEG Regular $27,500 51,840 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes 11/22/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $26,500 55,479 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Regular $28,750 55,842 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $24,500 58,079 Below DK GREEN 8G A Yes 11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $27,000 63,230 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes
Dealers in your area are dropping in and around the $34/$35 figure into 02 S500's with miles in the 30Kish range (depending on the color and the condition of the Benz) ... figure after they do the CPO, the service and a little this and that, they probably have the $36/$37 range in them .... down Retail Rd, they're seeing the low/mid $40's after the smoke clears ....
Clean 02 LS430's with the same mileage are seeing "around" the $26/$27ish range, so after some service and a CPO they are doing "around" the low/mid $30's on the retail side ...
There was a company called K.R.I.T. back in the early days of autos that used a swastika as their logo. It doesn't mean they were [non-permissible content removed] as this was around 1913 - long before Hitler came to power. The swastika was an Indian symbol of the sun and a sign of good fortune before the [non-permissible content removed] perverted its meaning.
They are recognized within the community of non-individualistic, non-thinking-on-their-own, I-better-get-on-the-band-wagon-too yuppie types as STATUS SYMBOLS. This kind of mentality does not take into consideration practicality, usability or reliability; only the "status".
So, is this learned or inherited? Is it in the genes at birth? Is it learned from parents, childhood experiences, TV kid's commercials? Does it start at a very young age - kindergarten, grammar school?
When I was a kid many years ago, boys "had" to have and wear real Levis jeans for status. Back then, only one type and they were like sandpaper and extremely uncomfortable. But, did not matter. Guys wore them anyway in order to be "in". Some parents would give static on buying these because they cost more than other more comfortable pants. Kids, teens and adults of each generation have their must-haves to be in. Notice kids going to school, waiting for buses, all have backpacks. Seems that this is practical to free up hands, but probably also a social status thing. Don't recall seeing kids with duffel bags. These would be roomier, would not put stress on skeleton/back, etc., but would be "different".
if your sneakers had 4 stripes instead of the 3 stripes that Adidas was sporting, they'd bust on you for wearing "Maypops"! Kids who wore Kinney NBAs or Thom McCann Jox tended to have it especially rough. Unfortunately, I know this first-hand. But then I finally talked my Mom into buying me a pair of Converse (not Chucks, which were out by this time, but leather hi-tops) and it cut through a LOT of aggravation! Suddenly I was one of the cool kids!
DAMN we were petty in the 80's! Although I guess humankind has always been like that. Gawd, I remember those awful dark blue sandpaper Levis, too. But nowadays, I can't even remember the last time I bought a pair of Levis! As long as it doesn't look like it's going to fall apart, and doesn't have some overly tacky design in the stitching or an overly suggestive name (I'm not going to wear something that says "Dickies" or "Plugg" displayed prominently on it! :surprise: ) then it's fine by me!
Petty times indeed. In my day - the late 80s - you need Reebok or Nike high-tops. And duffel bags were the in thing at the time, I had one I could almost fit in. It cost like $50 then. Levis were pretty much a requirement too, I had a couple pairs of especially tacky speckled acid wash ones.
At the same time, I wanted my dad to buy a Saab 9000, as I thought those were excellent looking cars. It's good that never happened. Maybe the good old days weren't all good.
...I recall getting poked fun at for my sneaks which were Keds and begging for Converse sneaks in the mid-1970s. Chucks were out of style even then. In the early '80s everybody was on the designer jeans kick and Jordache was the ultimate status symbol. I think I had one pair that my girlfriend bought me. For myself, I bought the less-stylish Lee jeans which were comfortable and wore like iron.
Funny about the cars that were popular. Every guy aspired to own a Camaro or Firebird. Today, they are associated with the mullet set. I guess tomorrow's teens are going to be laughing at the ridiculous winged, grapefruit-shooter Honda Civics of today's kids. A Scion xB will be tomorrow's Pacer or Gremlin.
I had to mention this: it seems that affluent young women now can RENT (instead of buy) fancy designer handbags! Instead of spending $2000+ for a very "in" PRADA or GUCCI handbag, you can rent one for as little as $50.00/month (12 month lease). So "conspicuous consumption" drive a big part of the luxury car market..and that is why suppliers of the almost unbelievable $350,000 MAYBACH are laughing all the way to the bank! There is no way that this car (the Maybach) is worth anywhere near this amount of money-but if ya got it, flaunt it!
That is utterly insane! However, how can you tell if said young lady is really affluent or just a poseur with a rented handbag? There are plenty of young people leasing expensive imported cars who are probably living in an efficiency apartment sans heat in a marginal neighborhood and about to be evicted for non-payment of rent. How prestigious is it to be living in your Lexus? It's getting hard to tell the really successful people from those who are "frontin'."
We all wore the same thing - salt-n-pepper cords and blue button down shirts from JC Penney.
In HS it was a bit better -- the guys couldn't wear denim fabric, so in the early 80's (before Dockers) your only choices were corduroy or "brushed" denim -- yeesh!
lemko - I'm with you regarding what was "cool" ... I remember a couple of classmates getting new cars in their senior year. One got an RX-7, the other a 320i, which, IIRC, cost something like $14-15K in 1982.
My (uncool) circle of friends had a '74 Civic, a '76 Chevette, some old '60's or '70's Detroit iron (can't remember specifically what they were), and my car, which was a '66 VW Bug (with a Baja kit) and, in my senior year, a '79 Pontiac Sunbird coupe.
but back in high school, among my crowd of friends, my '80 Malibu coupe was actually the musclecar of the bunch! It had not trouble embarrassing the likes of an '80 Accord hatchback, '85 Cavalier, '80 Fairmont 4-cyl, '72 Dodge Dart that never had its oil changed, '83 Stanza, 4-cyl Mustangs, and so forth. Back then at my school the only kids that really had new cars had ones that were so cheap that they were still cars you'd sneer at...Hyundai Excel, Yugo, stripper Lynx, etc.
Of course, there were some kids that had cooler cars. One of them had a '57 Ford! I think it was a Fairlane 2-door sedan. One of 'em had a sweet black '72 Riviera. There was a girl who had a red '76 Impala 4-door that looked like a bordello on wheels. And considering her reputation, it suited her very well. :P
I can't remember any of the students having anything like a Benz or BMW, though...new or used. And we didn't know what SUVs were yet. There were a few pickups in the student parking lot, though. Now that I think back, probably the coolest car in the parking lot was a 1985 black and gold Trans Am with a screaming chicken on the hood. That kid got the thing, brand-new, when he was a sophomore!
So "conspicuous consumption" drive a big part of the luxury car market..and that is why suppliers of the almost unbelievable $350,000 MAYBACH are laughing all the way to the bank! There is no way that this car (the Maybach) is worth anywhere near this amount of money-but if ya got it, flaunt it!
Folks that buy Maybach not concerned about money and don't care about JD Power nor Mercedes reliability ratings in CR Magazine. They can afford expensive preventive and maintenance costs and they won't get stranded anyway because they travel in private jets. Maybach just for going to country club and parties. Would anyone take a Maybach to the shopping mall.
Read sometime in past that Nebraska billionaire used to drive Chevy Impalas (full size ones) and eat at Wendy's. At highest end of rich, think that people don't even care about status symbols. But lower on down, are some of those in highly mortgaged mcmansions and leased/financed 3series being poseurs?
Some cars probably well beyond "status" such as $1.2 million Bugatti. Think that these bought by collectors
My good friend had a '78 Malibu ex-Texas Highway Patrol Car with a 305 and a 4-barrel. It was definitely the muscle car of our school, likely ripping off scintilating high nine second 0-60 runs.
The competition consisted of:
Pontiac Fiero 2M4 automatic - could squeal tires if revved like crazy in neutral and dropped into drive. This resulted in light squealing and a new transmission at less than 20,000 miles.
1977 Camaro V8 - could squeal tires if front wheels turned so far that they were rubbing the fender wells and then the gas was heavily applied. This resulted in minor squealing and grooves dug in the sidewalls of the front tires.
1978 Scirocco (mine) - could squeal tires if clutch dropped at about 6,000 rpms. This resulted in decent squealing but short clutch and tire life.
mid '70s Monza V8 - could not squeal tires under any conditions. I don't think it could break traction in a gravel pit or a mud bog.
I went to high school in the early '80s. Some of the coolest cars were the old ones:
1969 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham - belonged to me then-girlfriend.
1969 Chevrolet Caprice hardtop sedan - another girl's car.
1966 Chevrolet Caprice hardtop - belonged to another girl.
1972 Chevrolet Monte Carlo - belonged to a guy I knew.
1971 Chevrolet Malibu - a good friend's car.
1971 Chevrolet Nova - my cousin's car.
1968 Buick Special Deluxe - my car.
I didn't go to the same school, but my current girlfriend had a 1966 Ford Galaxie 500.
Several people actually had new cars - one guy had a new 1982 Trans Am, my best friend had a new 1982 Malibu and another guy had a new 1982 Caprice Classic.
you: That is utterly insane! However, how can you tell if said young lady is really affluent or just a poseur with a rented handbag?
me: No, it is utterly sane. Why? Because almost everyone judges others by what they look like, what they wear and have, and what they drive. I was dressed up pretty nice at the mall the other day, and it was pretty obvious that I was being treated much better than typical - usually wearing a sweatshirt and jeans. I was in a jewelry store, and they kept handing me $5K Omega watches to try on. If I wasn't dressed nice, they probably would've called security.
If you want to get ahead you've got to play the game. If you want to meet someone wealthy, you have to go where the wealthy go. Not everyone who is "frontin" becomes successful; but it is very difficult to become successful if you don't dress and do things like successful people. To many people, prestige items are an investment.
Does anyone know how many of these are sold? Are they reliable? I saw one once-it belonged to a local builder (I noted he had "Commercial" plates-obviously a writeoff
Comments
Oh, and before I get judged, let me explain. The FM band on that radio quit working for some reason, so I was doomed to AM. And Rush was the only thing I could pick up.
It's not a Maybach, is it?
Yeah what, a slum lord?
Ummm...there isn't really anything to the west of Medina but water, and then Seattle. So of course I'm east, by about 1.5 miles from where the neighborhood begins.
"he concentration of expensive traffic is going from Medina west to Seattle along 520,"
I'm going to wager you've never been here and you're getting all your info from google. Spend a day in downtown Bellevue, and tell me what you see.
"f you buy a CL today, don't you think by the time it is 3-5yrs old, it will be the "previous generation"?"
As we are at the end of the 220, of course (how very convenient for you to bring that up), but if you bought one at intro, of course not. Comparing a car from the end of the previous generation, a car that is more or less 7 years old, is apples to oranges.
"We are talking about $50k used cars here"
That are 4-5-6 years old and cost 85K new. 50%+ retained value over that timeframe is pretty decent. Lame excuse, indeed.
My bad on confusing your BMW/MB general breakdown claims with S class specifically. But the gist is the same.
"One every week or every other week on flatbeds that I see are MB and BMW of any/all models"
We'll see if you can ante up some photos, then. Someone of your supposed means and abilities should have no problem.
Also, I don't buy cars from the companies that used POW's and other concentration camp prisoners’ labor during the war to fight against us. Also, Ford was phrased by Hitler for his anti-Jew writings and profited by making military equipment for Hitler's army. I don't help enemies.
If you make even a minimal effort, you can pretty much boycott the products of **ANY** corporate entity ...
I understand your sentiments, but that's a hard philosophy to keep pure. After all, your own government imprisoned innocent Americans of Japanese descent during WWII, and used your taxes to support Saddam Hussein in the 1980s.
In the late 1990s, I was watching "This Week with David Brinkley", and the topic of vehicles came up. I was shocked when George Will said he drove a Ford Explorer! I figured him for the quintessential Volvo driver...
They are recognized within the community of non-individualistic, non-thinking-on-their-own, I-better-get-on-the-band-wagon-too yuppie types as STATUS SYMBOLS.
This kind of mentality does not take into consideration practicality, usability or reliability; only the "status".
I have seen them sitting alongside the road, most likely dead.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Check out these websites:
Dodge Brothers
Chrysler Heritage
No. I actually derive less than 10% of my income from the apartments. I acquired them when I needed a place in the city for myself. I'm by no means a big-time real estate investor or land-lording for livihood.
I'm going to wager you've never been here and you're getting all your info from google. Spend a day in downtown Bellevue, and tell me what you see.
There's high concentration of cachet cars, then there's high concentration of cachet cars. I used to think that Newbury Street in Boston had high concentration of nice cars on weekends (mostly conertible 3's, Z3's, SLK's and old SL and Ferraris with an occasional Mondena and Diablo here and there); then I moved to where I live now, the downtown roads were clogged by S's, E's, 7's and 5's . . . neighbors with multiple current model AMG's and M's that can't fit in the garage . . .; then I took a business trip to Hongkong, the Rolls-Royce capital of the world . . . while browsing stores in "Central" and talking to friends, I couldn't help but notice the huge number of Rolls and S class passing, and was told that owning an E or 5 was considered a sign of "poverty" -- go figure! I suppose everything is relative.
As we are at the end of the 220, of course (how very convenient for you to bring that up), but if you bought one at intro, of course not. Comparing a car from the end of the previous generation, a car that is more or less 7 years old, is apples to oranges.
Except a 2000 bought at intro would be 6 years old as well, and the resale on the first model year is poor anyway. Besides, if a 2001 is asking for $45k, what makes you think a 2000 would fetch more? BTW, are you now reducing your argument to good resale on intro model year only? Out of an 7-8-yr model run, that's only 10-15% of the model run, and the model is outsold by the sedan from which it is based by something like 10-to-1 (depending on model year) . . . in other words you are making your good resale argument on 2% of cars sold?
That are 4-5-6 years old and cost 85K new. 50%+ retained value over that timeframe is pretty decent. Lame excuse, indeed.
I doubt anyone has had a 2002 for 5-6yrs (please be pricise, 3-4 vs. 5-6 is a huge difference when we are talking about current model cars), and a 2001 CL600 cost well over $100k when new. A 2002 CL500 with options would also be close to $100k when new if not over. Selling at roughly $50k is a 50% drop in 3-4yrs, hardly spectacular resale value retention. Please keep in mind that I have been cutting tremendous slack for you in this disucssion in terms of model choice and model year. As you admitted to, model years other than early years don't retain value well at all; a massive price drop is coming shortly on all 2000-2006 CL's just like what happened to 1999 CL. The far more prevalent S class has much worse resale retention.
We'll see if you can ante up some photos, then. Someone of your supposed means and abilities should have no problem.
I'm rather suprised that you don't see MB's and BMW's (not current S but all models and all years) being helped or need help on regular basis, if indeed you see as many of those cars on the road as you seem to imply (but then again "A LOT" can be as few as 20 ;-) I don't know where you read my means or ability, in case you did not notice, it was explicitly pointed out that DSLR's are not condusive to taking photos while driving by myself.
Not just BMW-like cars. BMW actually builds 3 series and 5 series cars in China, and MB will follow in 2006 (factory under construction since 2004). Audi has been making cars there since 1980's. The most reliable luxury car made in China? A Buick by GM, followed by a Honda Accord that sold for $55k . . . wow! I was quite floored when I heard that.
And I think you're letting your love of a marque cloud your perception. Just my opinion. "
I'm not an MB lover--not my cup 'o tea. Not the road feel or revvy engines i like. I just think scores of broken-down s-classes blocking the roads is hyperbole and manufacture.
One score is 20. Half a dozen is barely over 1/4 of a single score. Spread that over 12 months, blocking the roads they do not (although in one case it did, as the car was actually stopped in the middle of the road, at a merge point; not result of accident). Half a dozen over 12 months does however make a meaningful point for statistic MTBF, especially since the competition is 1 and 0 for the same amount of observer miles covered.
That's about how it is in my zip code, and is exactly what I am getting at, I see these things *everywhere*, and they are just cars...to the point that my old fintail turns more heads than a new S. And compared to HK, it's all relative yes. Is HK littered with broken down MB? How about someplace like Vancouver which also has historically had high MB sales? I've spent considerable time there and I don't recall seeing one. I do recall a Rolls on a flatbed, though.
"Besides, if a 2001 is asking for $45k, what makes you think a 2000 would fetch more? "
I never said that, but at the same time, they don't fetch considerably less either.
"A 2002 CL500 with options would also be close to $100k when new if not over"
How many of them on the market are equipped like this? Which other cars can muster 50% after 4 years? Most mainstream cars do far worse. I don't see a massive decrease either, as the W221 is not as huge a leap as we saw from 140 to 220. I searched autotrader for plain old S500 sedans from 00-02 (as 2003 got updates), 23 listings found with within 25 miles from me with an average price 41K and change. It's a massive raw dollar loss from the original price (and much worse on 12 cylinder cars, but you'd have to be crazy to buy one anyway), but as a percentage of original price, which is what is key, it is not underperforming the market. Maybe we're just messed up on semantics. I am not talking about dollars lost.
It'll be fun seeing some pics. I'll snap some if I come across anything too. Today I DID see a W203 C class that was smoking (oil smoke!) but I didn't catch the model.
Regarding how much a used car is worth, IMHO, only the lowest prices on the for-sale listings are meaningful, not the "average." The entire listing consists of asking prices, not market clearing prices. People can ask sun and moon and then some for their used cars (like those owners of mid-90's cars), doesn't mean they will get it. For a given model year with comparable mileage, only the lowest priced cars have a realistic chance of getting sold (after some bargaining). From what I see here, the 2000-2002 S500 are selling close to lower-30's, 2003's are selling in the mid-to-upper 40's. Losing nearly 60% over 2-3 years is pretty bad value retention. 40-45% value retention is much much lower than the projected lease residuals. The 2002 and 2003 S500 are selling within a couple thousand of LS430 of the repsective model years, despite a whopping $30+k price difference in original MSRP.
As for comparing S430 resale to LS430, the two sell for practically the same amount for 2003 model despite their $15-20k initial price diffrence when new. That's roughly 52% value retention vs 68% value retention . . . huge difference!
simply don't see frequent broken down MBs of any type here, and most people echo that observation.
I suppose there is a definitional issue WRT "frequent," what kind of roads you drive and frequency of MB's. If there is indeed a 68 vs. 26 difference as cars.com data seems to suggest, I should be seeing nearly three times many MB breakdowns as you do, assuming I live in similar relative location within my community as you do in yours. On top of that, I'm within 1/3 mile of Rt128/I-95 beltway, roughly 1 mile from I-90, and three houses (over the small hill behind my house, about 120 yards) from a divided state highway . . . More traffic, more breakdowns.
Maybe this works
Oh wait I see...you limited to just S500. I'm looking at both cars
I can't compare S430 vs LS430 resa
le unless I know exactly what is being compared - options, conditions, etc.
I drive on everything from interstates to urban streets. If you should see three times what I do, that's still three times zero.
There's no point in all of this, and as I do go out, sleep, etc, I will just say this - I won't change your mine, you won't change mind. I'll easily admit these cars aren't what they used to be - I've driven every S class from fintails to W220s, and I can compare them. But the new ones aren't as bad as some make them out to be, either. And as used cars, they still do outperform most of the market in retained value, which is something for cars of such ferocious maintenance needs.
S500 only, and 50 miles around 98004; that returned 25 only.
I drive on everything from interstates to urban streets. If you should see three times what I do, that's still three times zero.
On the other hand, 1/3 of 7 is roughly 2 . . . you could easily have missed 2 stranded cars in a year if your driving pattern is different from mine. Whatever road you are driving on, you are obviously not seeing enough of them to see breakdowns first-hand.
02 MB S500's
====
11/11/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $38,850 18,917 Above WHITE 8G A No
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $39,500 26,432 Above BLACK 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $34,000 32,492 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $38,250 35,629 Above BLACK 8G A Yes
11/16/05 BAY CITI Regular $35,400 39,629 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $34,000 41,327 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $33,250 43,520 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $35,500 44,915 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $33,000 46,823 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Regular $33,000 47,167 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $34,000 47,832 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $32,500 47,971 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes
11/30/05 SEATTLE Regular $31,500 48,375 Avg LT GOLD 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $33,500 52,633 Avg GLA WHT 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $32,500 55,708 Avg SCLVER 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $31,250 56,158 Avg BRI SIL 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $30,750 57,078 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $33,000 58,827 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $32,000 59,831 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $32,500 60,238 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes
11/04/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $28,350 61,837 Below SILVER 8G A Yes
11/02/05 CADE Lease $31,000 65,075 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $29,500 69,807 Below SILVER 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $28,500 69,944 Below BRI SIL 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $32,500 71,364 Avg BRI SIL 8G Yes
====
02 LS430's:
11/11/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $29,925 37,540 Avg WHITE 8G A Yes
11/22/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $25,750 44,255 Below SILVER 8G A Yes
11/11/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $29,400 46,375 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes
11/30/05 BAY CITI Regular $29,500 48,199 Avg MAROON 8G A Yes
11/16/05 BAY CITI Regular $30,000 50,885 Avg WHITE 8G A Yes
11/22/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $26,200 51,834 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes
11/29/05 SAN DIEG Regular $27,500 51,840 Avg BLACK 8G A Yes
11/22/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $26,500 55,479 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Regular $28,750 55,842 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $24,500 58,079 Below DK GREEN 8G A Yes
11/10/05 RIVRSIDE Lease $27,000 63,230 Avg SILVER 8G A Yes
Dealers in your area are dropping in and around the $34/$35 figure into 02 S500's with miles in the 30Kish range (depending on the color and the condition of the Benz) ... figure after they do the CPO, the service and a little this and that, they probably have the $36/$37 range in them .... down Retail Rd, they're seeing the low/mid $40's after the smoke clears ....
Clean 02 LS430's with the same mileage are seeing "around" the $26/$27ish range, so after some service and a CPO they are doing "around" the low/mid $30's on the retail side ...
Terry.
Or your claims are a product of exaggeration, misidentification, or simply, to put it nicely, bending the truth.
You're free to back up your claims, otherwise find something else, and maybe rail against a marque you know.
Thanks for the stats, terry.
This kind of mentality does not take into consideration practicality, usability or reliability; only the "status".
So, is this learned or inherited? Is it in the genes at birth? Is it learned from parents, childhood experiences, TV kid's commercials? Does it start at a very young age - kindergarten, grammar school?
When I was a kid many years ago, boys "had" to have and wear real Levis jeans for status. Back then, only one type and they were like sandpaper and extremely uncomfortable. But, did not matter. Guys wore them anyway in order to be "in". Some parents would give static on buying these because they cost more than other more comfortable pants. Kids, teens and adults of each generation have their must-haves to be in. Notice kids going to school, waiting for buses, all have backpacks. Seems that this is practical to free up hands, but probably also a social status thing. Don't recall seeing kids with duffel bags. These would be roomier, would not put stress on skeleton/back, etc., but would be "different".
DAMN we were petty in the 80's! Although I guess humankind has always been like that. Gawd, I remember those awful dark blue sandpaper Levis, too. But nowadays, I can't even remember the last time I bought a pair of Levis! As long as it doesn't look like it's going to fall apart, and doesn't have some overly tacky design in the stitching or an overly suggestive name (I'm not going to wear something that says "Dickies" or "Plugg" displayed prominently on it! :surprise: ) then it's fine by me!
At the same time, I wanted my dad to buy a Saab 9000, as I thought those were excellent looking cars. It's good that never happened. Maybe the good old days weren't all good.
Funny about the cars that were popular. Every guy aspired to own a Camaro or Firebird. Today, they are associated with the mullet set. I guess tomorrow's teens are going to be laughing at the ridiculous winged, grapefruit-shooter Honda Civics of today's kids. A Scion xB will be tomorrow's Pacer or Gremlin.
In HS it was a bit better -- the guys couldn't wear denim fabric, so in the early 80's (before Dockers) your only choices were corduroy or "brushed" denim -- yeesh!
lemko - I'm with you regarding what was "cool" ... I remember a couple of classmates getting new cars in their senior year. One got an RX-7, the other a 320i, which, IIRC, cost something like $14-15K in 1982.
My (uncool) circle of friends had a '74 Civic, a '76 Chevette, some old '60's or '70's Detroit iron (can't remember specifically what they were), and my car, which was a '66 VW Bug (with a Baja kit) and, in my senior year, a '79 Pontiac Sunbird coupe.
Of course, there were some kids that had cooler cars. One of them had a '57 Ford! I think it was a Fairlane 2-door sedan. One of 'em had a sweet black '72 Riviera. There was a girl who had a red '76 Impala 4-door that looked like a bordello on wheels. And considering her reputation, it suited her very well. :P
I can't remember any of the students having anything like a Benz or BMW, though...new or used. And we didn't know what SUVs were yet. There were a few pickups in the student parking lot, though. Now that I think back, probably the coolest car in the parking lot was a 1985 black and gold Trans Am with a screaming chicken on the hood. That kid got the thing, brand-new, when he was a sophomore!
Folks that buy Maybach not concerned about money and don't care about JD Power nor Mercedes reliability ratings in CR Magazine. They can afford expensive preventive and maintenance costs and they won't get stranded anyway because they travel in private jets. Maybach just for going to country club and parties. Would anyone take a Maybach to the shopping mall.
Read sometime in past that Nebraska billionaire used to drive Chevy Impalas (full size ones) and eat at Wendy's. At highest end of rich, think that people don't even care about status symbols. But lower on down, are some of those in highly mortgaged mcmansions and leased/financed 3series being poseurs?
Some cars probably well beyond "status" such as $1.2 million Bugatti. Think that these bought by collectors
The competition consisted of:
Pontiac Fiero 2M4 automatic - could squeal tires if revved like crazy in neutral and dropped into drive. This resulted in light squealing and a new transmission at less than 20,000 miles.
1977 Camaro V8 - could squeal tires if front wheels turned so far that they were rubbing the fender wells and then the gas was heavily applied. This resulted in minor squealing and grooves dug in the sidewalls of the front tires.
1978 Scirocco (mine) - could squeal tires if clutch dropped at about 6,000 rpms. This resulted in decent squealing but short clutch and tire life.
mid '70s Monza V8 - could not squeal tires under any conditions. I don't think it could break traction in a gravel pit or a mud bog.
1969 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham - belonged to me then-girlfriend.
1969 Chevrolet Caprice hardtop sedan - another girl's car.
1966 Chevrolet Caprice hardtop - belonged to another girl.
1972 Chevrolet Monte Carlo - belonged to a guy I knew.
1971 Chevrolet Malibu - a good friend's car.
1971 Chevrolet Nova - my cousin's car.
1968 Buick Special Deluxe - my car.
I didn't go to the same school, but my current girlfriend had a 1966 Ford Galaxie 500.
Several people actually had new cars - one guy had a new 1982 Trans Am, my best friend had a new 1982 Malibu and another guy had a new 1982 Caprice Classic.
me: No, it is utterly sane. Why? Because almost everyone judges others by what they look like, what they wear and have, and what they drive.
I was dressed up pretty nice at the mall the other day, and it was pretty obvious that I was being treated much better than typical - usually wearing a sweatshirt and jeans. I was in a jewelry store, and they kept handing me $5K Omega watches to try on. If I wasn't dressed nice, they probably would've called security.
If you want to get ahead you've got to play the game. If you want to meet someone wealthy, you have to go where the wealthy go. Not everyone who is "frontin" becomes successful; but it is very difficult to become successful if you don't dress and do things like successful people. To many people, prestige items are an investment.