Shortly after the crash, Gomez's brother told the Mercury News that his brother had tried to brake and threw the car in neutral as it weaved through traffic for miles, clipping another car before striking Johnson's Honda.
Really? A car NOT stopping after getting put into neutral? Or park?
lars, i really have to go slowly with you. have you ever driven a vehicle 120 mph? and while trying to avoid other traffic?
copied from another site:
Investigators with the NHTSA say the car, which was a loaner from a dealership, had a driver’s side rubber all-weather that was too long. It was from a model other than the ES. It is believed the mat interfered with the accelerator and brake pedals.
i do admire your attempt to duplicate the problem. unfortunately, it reminds me of someone i used to work with that decided to lift weights and wanted to set the world record. his last boast was i am halfway there. got it?
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
You cannot take these witness accounts at face value. You have to conduct a thorough crash investigation, including interrogation of the "black box," if the car is equipped with one.
Well, we'll see if that link is credible. People have been alleging sudden acceleration in just about every make and model of car with automatic transmissions over the last 25 years or so. I remember when I had my '77 Impala, one of the longest-running NHTSA investigations involved ALL GM cars with auto transmissions from 1973 to '86.
Guess what? Nothing ever came out of it. Now people are trying to claim throttle-by-wire is the problem. Hard to believe when the old-style mechanical linkages were subject to binding or breaking. NHTSA even has a safety standard for these linkages.
I still say look at what happened to Audi when CBS' 60 Minutes "proved" the 5000 model really did have this problem. NHTSA eventually concluded that people were stepping on the gas pedal instead of the brake. Meanwhile, Audi nearly went out of business in the US.
I remember when I had my '77 Impala, one of the longest-running NHTSA investigations involved ALL GM cars with auto transmissions from 1973 to '86.
Hmm, I'd never heard of that one. Did GM do a good job at keeping it hushed up, or something? I do remember the big scandal about Ford cars being able to drop out of park and roll down the driveway, though.
The difference was the Ford problem was very real; a lot of people were run over by their own cars when they self-shifted from Park to Reverse. There wasn't a lot of space on the gear quadrant from P to R, and it didn't take much for the shift lever to slip. Plus IIRC, there was a "false Park" position, where it felt like the car was in Park, but really was between P and R. And even if you set the parking brake, the more expensive Ford products had the automatic parking brake release if the car was taken out of Park. Ford dodged a bullet on this one, because the government ultimately settled the investigation by allowing Ford to send all owners a warning sticker saying to put the car in Park, set the parking brake, AND turn of the engine when exiting the car.
The GM investigation went on for a long time, but ultimately NHTSA concluded there was no defect, or at least, no consistent pattern suggesting a mechanical defect. It probably was due to people stepping on the wrong pedal.
This one, if true, scares the heck out of me as a 2007 TCH owner.
It is all under software control. Remember the 2004 Prius with the ECU that went crazy? Why is it so hard to believe that the accelerator program could have glitches? In those NHTSA complaints the Prius is also subject to sudden acceleration. It is always easier for the dealer to reset the system and claim they never have witnessed the problem before. If Toyota was so sure their system was bullet proof why did they settle with the wife and 5 kids for an unspecified amount. Sound familiar? I think Ford and Chrysler have done the same to cover up a problem they cannot get a handle on.
I cannot believe that cop did not try to shift into neutral. That would be the first move after trying to apply the brakes. Something else was screwed up. We may never know the truth.
It seems Toyota is installing defective ECMs. Mine had a problem detailed in Technical Service Bulletins in 2006 and again in 2007, but since my car was 6000 miles out of warrantee neither the dealer nor Toyota would provide any adjustment. Also, the quoted repair cost at the dealer where I bought the car was $250 over what another Toyota dealer charged me for the repair.
I'm buying Honda next time. Toyota is much overrated.
Something else was screwed up. We may never know the truth
It does seem weird that you wouldn't feel a mat crunching up on the accelerator, but who knows. With cars going so heavily electronic, you probably do get an increase in possibility of a computer glitch. That's why I think its important to have a separate key that you can physically and manually use to shut the thing off if need be, or at least circuit breaker or something on the dash.
It does seem weird that you wouldn't feel a mat crunching up on the accelerator, but who knows.
You don't always feel that Coke can rolling around there either, until you try to step on the brake, and feel it go crunch.
The emergency stop switch on the dash would open up a whole 'nother can of worms, and probably would be worse than the cure. I think you're on the right track with having a physical key instead of on/off buttons.
I could even see some regs come out to require some uniformity. No push buttons, no ignition keys on the console (didn't a Saab have that set-up one year?). It's bad enough hoping into a strange car and then trying to figure out where the wiper switch is in a sudden downpour.
I could even see some regs come out to require some uniformity. No push buttons, no ignition keys on the console (didn't a Saab have that set-up one year?). It's bad enough hoping into a strange car and then trying to figure out where the wiper switch is in a sudden downpour.
That would be a good thing. Not everyone is so anal they read the manual for a car. I cannot remember ever reading one. I check to see what service intervals and capacities. Reading about floor mats would be the last thing I would think of. Yet I have had NO trouble ever with a car except the shoe sole hanging up on that old 1990 Mazda. That was just a matter of knowing it could happen.
Saab has always had the ignition in the center console.
The key was put there originally for two reasons. Back 60 plus years ago when pretty much all cars had the ignition on the dash in front of the wheel if your hand came off the wheel in a crash you could impale it on the back of the metal key. Even if the key was on the steering column there is a chance you could catch part of your had on the key or key chain.
Saab put the key in the center console to stop that. They also integrated the ignition with the manual trans so that you could only get the key out when the trans was in reverse.
It's a fine, if quirky design ... if everyone else did that.
If I'm in an unfamiliar Saab and the accelerator sticks, I may be too panicky to remember where the ignition switch is. Trying to test drive a Prius is confusing the first time too.
They regulate bumper heights and everything else. Seems like requiring a somewhat consistent user interface wouldn't be a bad idea.
When they all have digital touchscreen dashes, we'll just be able to call up our favorite home dashboard I suppose.
Back 60 plus years ago when pretty much all cars had the ignition on the dash in front of the wheel if your hand came off the wheel in a crash you could impale it on the back of the metal key.
60 years ago getting your chest impaled on the steering column was a much more serious problem.
Knees into the hard metal dash without a seat belt was hard on knees and on hip sockets. Back in the old days a cousin bought a rebuilt car one year old with knee imprints in the lower metal dash from the crash. I always thought that was creepy, because I'd think about how much that had to have hurt.
How about other car manufactures just getting better than Toyota? To think that Toyota would be ontop forever is plain ignorant. Toyota and Honda have a great PR division. With forums like these all over the internet you cannot hide problems anylonger. Toyota will loose sales no doubt. But they will not end up where GM has landed.
Back in the old days a cousin bought a rebuilt car one year old with knee imprints in the lower metal dash from the crash. I always thought that was creepy, because I'd think about how much that had to have hurt.
My '68 Dart has a dent on the exposed metal part of the inside of the passenger side door. The guy that I bought it from told me how it happened, but I don't remember all the details. End result was that a passenger ended up slamming against the door, his upper arm/shoulder leaving that dent. I imagine that didn't feel too good.
I think its true that Toyota and Honda are good cars. But, I do think that they have both got way to comfortable in their positions. We can see in reliability the Korean cars (Hyundai, Kia) are surpassing them in reliability. The price is a big difference to. A family member was looking for a new minivan and was looking at the Sienna. The Toyota was almost 40 grand for the loaded model and Toyota would not bargain. She ended going and getting a loaded Kia Sedona for 25 after the rebates and discounts. I compared the two and I could not find a 15,000 dollar difference.
>How about other car manufactures just getting better than Toyota?
That is a very good point. In '03 I started saying regression to the mean was occurring with HoToy. It's been more difficult for some US manufacturers to improve because without a lot of extra cash like some foreign makers had profited from their customers to throw into developing a lot of new replacement cars, they had to keep producing some cars that weren't leading edge; they had to have the cash flow.
>Toyota and Honda have a great PR division.
That's nowhere more apparent than on some forums: there is a cadre of people who jump on any criticism that might take root and try to beat it down with a hammer or even complaining to management. Negative posts are often met with derision. Even today mention of sludge gets beaten down. I can give some examples via carspace email to my carspace.com address here on Edmunds.
Toyota, like some other companies, knows how to use groups to help effect control over internet attitudes about their vehicles in various ways. This started showing up re the sludge issue.
>their fair share of recalls (OOPS!) I mean service bulletins
In an Odyssey transmission forum a poster sounds like his car was in for an oil change and a software update was applied to fix a transmission symptom without his knowledge. Then the car was giving transmission symptoms. Some positive reputation was earned in earlier years by doing fixes so that the public wasn't aware their vehicles had problems; that helped the image of the perfect cars from the 90s.
> With forums like these all over the internet you cannot hide problems any longer.
That's a good thing. But that's why some companies have involved consultants to help control the impact of their product and company image on the internet.
>As a Honda owner (2009 Odyssey) that has had two transmissions fail. Sliding door motor fail. Rotors and pads replaced due to warping. DVD player replaced. And A/C condenser replaced. Do you think Honda is hiding defects also?
All cars have troubles. The difference is how the troubles will impact their image. If I listened to most people around this area they would have the opinion that a Honda has no transmission, AC compressor, sliding door, brake, etc., troubles--unless they are automotive forum users at the open discussions on the internet.
The same people would know most troubles that GM and C cars have had through the last 10 years. What makes the difference in the public opinion? The media?
What makes the difference in the public opinion? The media?
I'm not sure media is the biggest driver. I think two other things come into play. Some people had absolutely horrible experiences with D3 junk in past decades while some Japanese firms put out very good in comparison cars during that same time period. Also, if you've spent several grand more to buy a comparable Honda or Toyota, you may be a bit reluctant to admit problems because indirectly its an admission that you were fleeced. It takes a long time to heal wounds and change attitudes and perceptions, but that can also mean bargains for those willing to go back to Ford or GM today. For some reason Hyundai has been able to shed its bad quality image faster than D3, but I think a lot of car brands are getting fairly close to each other with the newer models. OTOH, I don't think Toyota is producing junk either like some may want us to believe.
Knows how to use groups to help effect control over internet attitudes
Toyota initially stumbled over the sludge gel issue. Then they got smart and proactive and that included sending a rep to our forums to address people's concerns.
There should be more of that. It's not like the old days where a person with a problem and an indifferent dealer tells ten friends and relatives. Now we go on line and tell thousands of people.
There is some forum salting going on. Some people do nothing but bash Toyota and Honda, and then when you figure out where they are posting from, it's a Detroit suburb. Makes you go hmmm.
>sending a rep to our forums to address people's concerns.
Was that Toyota rep TMCusa or a name similar? Was he here in the sludge gel forum or the transmission part problem?
>There should be more of that
As long as the effort is overt, that's what there should be more of. The description I had come across was of people who would work "undercover" to impact the things appearing on the net about their company contracting them. No company names were mentioned in the article.
>Some people do nothing but bash Toyota and Honda
Do think the reverse goes on? --with people only bashing D3 or praising the foreign makers?
Close - tmsuas1. I don't think he was in the sludge or transmission discussion (I don't remember that one), but he started up a sludge/gel one representing Toyota. (link)
And yeah, we have some posters here that just post to bash - some because they work for the D3 or other manufacturer or dealer, and some because they had an awful experience with their foreign or domestic car. It's usually pretty easy to spot them, since they start to sound like broken records after a few posts. We miss some, but the hosts are really good about spotting the shills too.
I wonder how many people are aware of the gel problem these days? That was 7 years ago.
I'm aware of it because I like long oil change intervals and since the gel days, Toyota has cut back the mileage limit and recommend 5,000 mile intervals for their cars in NA. I suspect that they are at 7,500 or 10,000 mile intervals with the same engines in the EU.
I suspect very few other than the type of posters represented by many of Edmund's repeat posters remember -- Edmund's frequent posters are fairly well informed on problems. All cars have problems and some other cars have had engines sensitive to change interval abuse or engines susceptible to sludging. My nephew-in-law uses Amsoil in his Passat TDI. To the general buyer, sludge in their Toyota (or other cars) came as a great surprise in the old days.
I suspect that albeit Toyota changed the design of the then susceptible or abuse-prone motor the coming of synthetic and better oils has reduced sludge. I can hear the guy at Grab-a-buck lube quick change telling an owner of a car that might have a reputation for sludging that the owner should use synthetic or near-synthetic just to protect the motor.
Don't know, just from "corporate" and from customer service. The "tms" stands for Toyota Motor Sales and I think they are in Torrence. And I messed up his name - tmsusa1.
He did a nice job deflecting the flack, and he got a lot of it for a while there.
"On July 26, 2007, Redwood City resident Guadalupe Gomez's 2007 Toyota Camry mysteriously sped out of control on Interstate 280 near San Jose, careening 20 miles before hitting the back of Johnson's Honda Accord. Gomez survived. Johnson was killed instantly.
According to a report in the San Jose Mercury News, the California Highway Patrol found unsecured plastic and fabric pieces of the floor mat on the driver's side of Gomez's car, which the agency concluded may have jammed the accelerator down."
"The agency’s [NHTSA] investigation in 2007 made it clear the automaker had a problem with the design of the accelerator pedal and the all-weather, rubber floor mats that were an option.
In a report dated April 2008 the Ohio researchers cleared the electronics, saying neither “electrical signals” nor “magnetic fields” caused a malfunction that would cause run-away acceleration.
What they did find was that the design of the accelerator pedal (“one-piece, nonarticulating”) allowed it to become easily entrapped in the groove of the rubber all-weather floor mat if the rubber mat was not properly secured with at least one of the two retaining hooks.”
With the engine throttle plate open, the vacuum power assist of the braking system cannot be replenished and the effectiveness of the brakes is reduced significantly.
The problem is that with the vehicle in motion the button must be depressed three seconds to cut off the engine. That’s a safety measure to prevent the engine from being shut off inadvertently, Toyota said. But the report said owners would probably not know that because the owner’s manual has no mention of the three-second requirement.
Shift to neutral. That's the first thing my father said about the other story. He'll be 88 in January and used to be a Virginia State Trooper.
I'm 59 and have known for years that the standard way to turn off a stalled computer is to hold the power button down for 3 seconds or so until it shuts off. I thought it was common knowledge and I'm no computer expert. Never even had a class.
The gas pedal in my '06 Avalon XLS won't come anywere near the Toyota rubber mat. I have seen pics of a different style of mat though, so maybe that's the problem.
The computer forced-power down is 5 seconds, I think.
For cars, they need a key or faux key system to shut the thing off. But there's not consistency with the button and the secret 3-second power down (if computer is working right).
Leaving that out of the 2008 manual is a BIG problem now, in my humble opinion. Plus there's no consistency in shut down for computer-controlled key systems. My Cabrio (Whirlpool) requires hitting the cancel button twice, not holding it for 3 seconds. I see a real problem with the lack of a pattern in the buttons for canceling.
I almost stopped at the local Toyota dealer to look inside at a Camry's accelerator, but with the dragonlike sales attitudes I met in the past, I couldn't bring myself to try. Especially if I told the salesman what I wanted to see. He probably would have had me arrested.
Is the shifting controlled by the computer? I.E., if I shift from neutral to drive, is the shift actually controlled by something the computer does? If so, could the computer be preventing shifting into neutral to protect the motor with a request for power from the accelerator from being released to rev freely (to the limiter)?
standard way to turn off a stalled computer is to hold the power button down for 3 seconds or so
Interesting - news to me.
Imidazol, don't know about the shifting. In the comments in the NY Times link, someone said the shift to neutral in the Lexus wasn't "straight" but you had to move the shifter laterally Another commenter said no, it was a straight shift in their gated shifter.
While we're piling on (nothing to do with reliability, but when it rains...)
I can understand not being able to check the pedal itself with a car full of screaming, scared people. I can understand not knowing about the 3-second rule for turning off the motor--if there wasn't something wrong with the computer that wouldn't let the button turn it off. I can understand the brakes not slowing the car due to no vacuum assist and to brake fade as soon as they overheated... Emergency brake?
But I can't understand the guy not shifting into neutral. :sick:
"Still, Bohuchot said sending letters isn't enough. She urged the auto giant to spend part of its advertising budget to publicize the problem more quickly.
"The company should "notify people in every way possible," she said."
"They simply can't rely on first-class mail and notices on their Web site," Vasquez said. "It's not unreasonable that they take a tenth of their advertising budget and dedicate it to the problem."--law firm representing the widow
That's never going to happen!!!
How many here think we're going to see ads on TV from Toyota about removing floor mats and seeing your dealer about the recall for compensation for extra mats you've added, etc. And 10% of their advertising budget!!! Whooo hooo. Ain't gonna happen.
I can see that ad on TV with a warning that accelerators were badly designed and can swedge into a thick mat because the accelerator goes to close to the horizontal floor. Fade to pictures of cars accelerating out of control. Fade to picture of finger putting car in neutral and turning off the key or pushing the button for 3 seconds. Fade to crash pictures. Then uplifting music and driver turning into the service entrance for his local Toyota dealership.
With music for ads being so much a part of the TV ads today, What kind of music for background do you use for that? Barbra Streisand? Dolly Parton? Deliverance type Blue Grass? Michael Buble singing in the background?
Be clear that it's sad that people died in these accidents.
"I almost stopped at the local Toyota dealer to look inside at a Camry's accelerator"
I could post a picture of mine, but I don’t think it’s worth my time. I am sure someone will just say that I modified the photo, the way this forum is going. By the way, it still has the old all-weather floor mats that were recalled in late 2007, and they don't come anywhere near interfering with the accelerator, brake, or clutch. I use the hooks and only one all-weather mat, and that's all I’ve ever needed, even in the snowy North.
Why don't you see the article posted here? Very interesting, and it has pictures of many cars, including Toyota. link title“Well, this recall is specific to Toyota and Lexus, but my mind flashes back to numerous times when my own floor mats got fowled with the pedals in several of my personal vehicles over the years, Toyota and non-Toyota alike.” “Before we make the jump, take a gander at the photo above. This is a typical Toyota/Lexus floor mat installation: An top-hinged "pendulum-style" gas pedal is paired with a generous cut-out in the mat to produce a large clearance. The floor mat is kept from creeping forward by two plastic hooks just in front of the seat. As long as it remains hooked and the floor mat is the right size and shape, things should be fine.”
Again, I’ve experienced a stuck accelerator due to a floor mat moving in an old Mazda I had over 10 years ago. Fortunately, I there was no traffic around at the time, and I was able to pull it free in time. I am very sensitive about this kind of thing. If I was at all worried that this whole thing was a problem, I’d be screaming about it.
“>their fair share of recalls (OOPS!) I mean service bulletins.” Come on, let’s work on the facts! Recalls are safety-related, while service bulletins are about issues not safety related. If it is safety-related, Honda and Toyota have to issue recalls – it is government –required.
By the way, I just read about someone's wife getting hit with the hatch of a 2003, I think CRV, and knocked out. I guess they should go after Honda! :sick:
What they did find was that the design of the accelerator pedal (“one-piece, nonarticulating”) allowed it to become easily entrapped in the groove of the rubber all-weather floor mat if the rubber mat was not properly secured with at least one of the two retaining hooks.”
Pretty much sums it up regarding the pedal design.
Funny you should mention that. I took my Sequoia in for the 15k mile oil change and tire rotation at the Toyota dealer in Indiana. I mentioned the struts on my tailgate not going all the way up when it is below 40 degrees. His response "that is common". "You just have to push the tailgate up". He told me the real problem was the Sienna power tailgates would go up then fall down when you were putting things away. There was a recall according to the service manager. Looks like I am stuck with poor working struts on my Sequoia. Unless I want to make a fuss with Corporate.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is investigating 2004 and 2005 Toyota Sienna minivans for potential problems with their power liftgates. There have been 14 reports of the liftgates unexpectedly closing. A total of 142,418 Siennas are included in the investigation. This doesn’t appear to have anything to do with user error; the investigation is focusing on a faulty seal that could cause the high-pressure struts that raise the liftgate to leak, causing it to close unintentionally.
Toyota first knew about the problem in the 2004-2006 Sienna early on and was not going to fix any of the struts until the customer complained. NHTSA had to investigate and force them to fix all of them.
This is a current attempt to either rip off the consumer or cover up a POOR design.
I HAVE A 2004 TOYOTA SIENNA WITH AUTOMATIC REAR PASSENGER SLIDING DOOR. THE CABLE AND MOTOR MALFUNCTIONED IN JANUARY 2008. I WENT TO THE DEALER IN GAINESVILLE, FL. I WAS ADVISED THAT THE WHOLE ASSEMBLY WITH THE WIRE CORD HAD TO BE REPLACED AT THE COST OF ABOUT $ 1300.00. AFTER GETTING IT FIXED, THE SAME WIRE AND THE PLASTIC LATCH BROKE AGAIN ON 9/12/09. WENT TO THE DEALER ONLY TO BE INFORMED AGAIN THAT THE SAME PARTS NEED REPLACEMENT AT THE COST OF $ 1600.00. I BELIEVE THAT THE PART IS NOT PROPERLY DESIGNED, AND THE CONSUMERS HAVE TO PAY GREAT SUMS OF MONEY TO GET IT FIXES. *TR
There is 103 similar complaints in the ODI file for just the 2004 Sienna.
I used to have trouble with hatch struts all winter in Anchorage. The hydraulics don't do well in cold weather.
Power liftgates would be a bit of a different story. I always knew where my struts would end up since I'd have to help them beyond a certain point. New ones made little difference either.
That is what the Toyota service guy in Evansville told me. So they do nothing. And I watch my head. I personally like the swing out doors on my Suburban better than the lift gate.
Comments
Not thinking about putting the car into neutral is what cost him his life.
It was an avoidable ACCIDENT.
btw, more hybrid patent lawsuits on the way.
Do we REALLY know even THAT? It was not in the police report or on the 911 tape.
How do we know the floor mats had any part in this at all?
The most basic common sense tells you that if a floor mat is stuck, you reach down and yank it free.
Or he tells the wife, "honey, hold the wheel while I use both hands to yank this floor mat up."
I'm not buying the floor mat as a cause at all until I see evidence of it.
This news story confirms my thoughts - other problems are involved, not merely floor mats, which I think is a stupid reason for a car to crash:
Throttle control system problems
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Can it REALLY happen like this? Even a car put into NEUTRAL keeps accelerating? How is that possible?
What the heck
Shortly after the crash, Gomez's brother told the Mercury News that his brother had tried to brake and threw the car in neutral as it weaved through traffic for miles, clipping another car before striking Johnson's Honda.
Really? A car NOT stopping after getting put into neutral? Or park?
That's a nightmare scenario right there.
have you ever driven a vehicle 120 mph? and while trying to avoid other traffic?
copied from another site:
Investigators with the NHTSA say the car, which was a loaner from a dealership, had a driver’s side rubber all-weather that was too long. It was from a model other than the ES. It is believed the mat interfered with the accelerator and brake pedals.
i do admire your attempt to duplicate the problem. unfortunately, it reminds me of someone i used to work with that decided to lift weights and wanted to set the world record.
his last boast was i am halfway there. got it?
Guess what? Nothing ever came out of it. Now people are trying to claim throttle-by-wire is the problem. Hard to believe when the old-style mechanical linkages were subject to binding or breaking. NHTSA even has a safety standard for these linkages.
I still say look at what happened to Audi when CBS' 60 Minutes "proved" the 5000 model really did have this problem. NHTSA eventually concluded that people were stepping on the gas pedal instead of the brake. Meanwhile, Audi nearly went out of business in the US.
Hmm, I'd never heard of that one. Did GM do a good job at keeping it hushed up, or something? I do remember the big scandal about Ford cars being able to drop out of park and roll down the driveway, though.
The GM investigation went on for a long time, but ultimately NHTSA concluded there was no defect, or at least, no consistent pattern suggesting a mechanical defect. It probably was due to people stepping on the wrong pedal.
It is all under software control. Remember the 2004 Prius with the ECU that went crazy? Why is it so hard to believe that the accelerator program could have glitches? In those NHTSA complaints the Prius is also subject to sudden acceleration. It is always easier for the dealer to reset the system and claim they never have witnessed the problem before. If Toyota was so sure their system was bullet proof why did they settle with the wife and 5 kids for an unspecified amount. Sound familiar? I think Ford and Chrysler have done the same to cover up a problem they cannot get a handle on.
I cannot believe that cop did not try to shift into neutral. That would be the first move after trying to apply the brakes. Something else was screwed up. We may never know the truth.
I'm buying Honda next time. Toyota is much overrated.
Maybe they're both overrated and overpriced when you read all of the different problem blogs?
It does seem weird that you wouldn't feel a mat crunching up on the accelerator, but who knows. With cars going so heavily electronic, you probably do get an increase in possibility of a computer glitch. That's why I think its important to have a separate key that you can physically and manually use to shut the thing off if need be, or at least circuit breaker or something on the dash.
You don't always feel that Coke can rolling around there either, until you try to step on the brake, and feel it go crunch.
The emergency stop switch on the dash would open up a whole 'nother can of worms, and probably would be worse than the cure. I think you're on the right track with having a physical key instead of on/off buttons.
I could even see some regs come out to require some uniformity. No push buttons, no ignition keys on the console (didn't a Saab have that set-up one year?). It's bad enough hoping into a strange car and then trying to figure out where the wiper switch is in a sudden downpour.
That would be a good thing. Not everyone is so anal they read the manual for a car. I cannot remember ever reading one. I check to see what service intervals and capacities. Reading about floor mats would be the last thing I would think of. Yet I have had NO trouble ever with a car except the shoe sole hanging up on that old 1990 Mazda. That was just a matter of knowing it could happen.
The key was put there originally for two reasons. Back 60 plus years ago when pretty much all cars had the ignition on the dash in front of the wheel if your hand came off the wheel in a crash you could impale it on the back of the metal key. Even if the key was on the steering column there is a chance you could catch part of your had on the key or key chain.
Saab put the key in the center console to stop that. They also integrated the ignition with the manual trans so that you could only get the key out when the trans was in reverse.
If I'm in an unfamiliar Saab and the accelerator sticks, I may be too panicky to remember where the ignition switch is. Trying to test drive a Prius is confusing the first time too.
They regulate bumper heights and everything else. Seems like requiring a somewhat consistent user interface wouldn't be a bad idea.
When they all have digital touchscreen dashes, we'll just be able to call up our favorite home dashboard I suppose.
60 years ago getting your chest impaled on the steering column was a much more serious problem.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My '68 Dart has a dent on the exposed metal part of the inside of the passenger side door. The guy that I bought it from told me how it happened, but I don't remember all the details. End result was that a passenger ended up slamming against the door, his upper arm/shoulder leaving that dent. I imagine that didn't feel too good.
>How about other car manufactures just getting better than Toyota?
That is a very good point. In '03 I started saying regression to the mean was occurring with HoToy. It's been more difficult for some US manufacturers to improve because without a lot of extra cash like some foreign makers had profited from their customers to throw into developing a lot of new replacement cars, they had to keep producing some cars that weren't leading edge; they had to have the cash flow.
>Toyota and Honda have a great PR division.
That's nowhere more apparent than on some forums: there is a cadre of people who jump on any criticism that might take root and try to beat it down with a hammer or even complaining to management. Negative posts are often met with derision. Even today mention of sludge gets beaten down. I can give some examples via carspace email to my carspace.com address here on Edmunds.
Toyota, like some other companies, knows how to use groups to help effect control over internet attitudes about their vehicles in various ways. This started showing up re the sludge issue.
>their fair share of recalls (OOPS!) I mean service bulletins
In an Odyssey transmission forum a poster sounds like his car was in for an oil change and a software update was applied to fix a transmission symptom without his knowledge. Then the car was giving transmission symptoms. Some positive reputation was earned in earlier years by doing fixes so that the public wasn't aware their vehicles had problems; that helped the image of the perfect cars from the 90s.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0fa11e/1189#MSG1189
> With forums like these all over the internet you cannot hide problems any longer.
That's a good thing. But that's why some companies have involved consultants to help control the impact of their product and company image on the internet.
>As a Honda owner (2009 Odyssey) that has had two transmissions fail. Sliding door motor fail. Rotors and pads replaced due to warping. DVD player replaced. And A/C condenser replaced. Do you think Honda is hiding defects also?
All cars have troubles. The difference is how the troubles will impact their image. If I listened to most people around this area they would have the opinion that a Honda has no transmission, AC compressor, sliding door, brake, etc., troubles--unless they are automotive forum users at the open discussions on the internet.
The same people would know most troubles that GM and C cars have had through the last 10 years. What makes the difference in the public opinion? The media?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm not sure media is the biggest driver. I think two other things come into play. Some people had absolutely horrible experiences with D3 junk in past decades while some Japanese firms put out very good in comparison cars during that same time period. Also, if you've spent several grand more to buy a comparable Honda or Toyota, you may be a bit reluctant to admit problems because indirectly its an admission that you were fleeced. It takes a long time to heal wounds and change attitudes and perceptions, but that can also mean bargains for those willing to go back to Ford or GM today. For some reason Hyundai has been able to shed its bad quality image faster than D3, but I think a lot of car brands are getting fairly close to each other with the newer models. OTOH, I don't think Toyota is producing junk either like some may want us to believe.
Toyota initially stumbled over the
sludgegel issue. Then they got smart and proactive and that included sending a rep to our forums to address people's concerns.There should be more of that. It's not like the old days where a person with a problem and an indifferent dealer tells ten friends and relatives. Now we go on line and tell thousands of people.
There is some forum salting going on. Some people do nothing but bash Toyota and Honda, and then when you figure out where they are posting from, it's a Detroit suburb. Makes you go hmmm.
Was that Toyota rep TMCusa or a name similar? Was he here in the
sludgegel forum or the transmission part problem?>There should be more of that
As long as the effort is overt, that's what there should be more of. The description I had come across was of people who would work "undercover" to impact the things appearing on the net about their company contracting them. No company names were mentioned in the article.
>Some people do nothing but bash Toyota and Honda
Do think the reverse goes on? --with people only bashing D3 or praising the foreign makers?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And yeah, we have some posters here that just post to bash - some because they work for the D3 or other manufacturer or dealer, and some because they had an awful experience with their foreign or domestic car. It's usually pretty easy to spot them, since they start to sound like broken records after a few posts. We miss some, but the hosts are really good about spotting the shills too.
I wonder how many people are aware of the gel problem these days? That was 7 years ago.
I'm aware of it because I like long oil change intervals and since the gel days, Toyota has cut back the mileage limit and recommend 5,000 mile intervals for their cars in NA. I suspect that they are at 7,500 or 10,000 mile intervals with the same engines in the EU.
I suspect very few other than the type of posters represented by many of Edmund's repeat posters remember -- Edmund's frequent posters are fairly well informed on problems. All cars have problems and some other cars have had engines sensitive to change interval abuse or engines susceptible to sludging. My nephew-in-law uses Amsoil in his Passat TDI. To the general buyer, sludge in their Toyota (or other cars) came as a great surprise in the old days.
I suspect that albeit Toyota changed the design of the then susceptible or abuse-prone motor the coming of synthetic and better oils has reduced sludge. I can hear the guy at Grab-a-buck lube quick change telling an owner of a car that might have a reputation for sludging that the owner should use synthetic or near-synthetic just to protect the motor.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Was he out of the Cincinnati Toyota headquarters? (TMMNA, Toyota Motor Manufacturing N.A.) If so, he wasn't far from me.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
He did a nice job deflecting the flack, and he got a lot of it for a while there.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Back to the topic and those floor mats again:
"On July 26, 2007, Redwood City resident Guadalupe Gomez's 2007 Toyota Camry mysteriously sped out of control on Interstate 280 near San Jose, careening 20 miles before hitting the back of Johnson's Honda Accord. Gomez survived. Johnson was killed instantly.
According to a report in the San Jose Mercury News, the California Highway Patrol found unsecured plastic and fabric pieces of the floor mat on the driver's side of Gomez's car, which the agency concluded may have jammed the accelerator down."
Rio Linda widow berates Toyota on safety after crashes (Sacramento Bee).
And in the New York Times:
"The agency’s [NHTSA] investigation in 2007 made it clear the automaker had a problem with the design of the accelerator pedal and the all-weather, rubber floor mats that were an option.
In a report dated April 2008 the Ohio researchers cleared the electronics, saying neither “electrical signals” nor “magnetic fields” caused a malfunction that would cause run-away acceleration.
What they did find was that the design of the accelerator pedal (“one-piece, nonarticulating”) allowed it to become easily entrapped in the groove of the rubber all-weather floor mat if the rubber mat was not properly secured with at least one of the two retaining hooks.”
With the engine throttle plate open, the vacuum power assist of the braking system cannot be replenished and the effectiveness of the brakes is reduced significantly.
The problem is that with the vehicle in motion the button must be depressed three seconds to cut off the engine. That’s a safety measure to prevent the engine from being shut off inadvertently, Toyota said. But the report said owners would probably not know that because the owner’s manual has no mention of the three-second requirement.
2009 owners manuals contain that information."
The comments there are interesting too.
Shift to neutral. That's the first thing my father said about the other story. He'll be 88 in January and used to be a Virginia State Trooper.
I'm 59 and have known for years that the standard way to turn off a stalled computer is to hold the power button down for 3 seconds or so until it shuts off. I thought it was common knowledge and I'm no computer expert. Never even had a class.
The gas pedal in my '06 Avalon XLS won't come anywere near the Toyota rubber mat. I have seen pics of a different style of mat though, so maybe that's the problem.
John
For cars, they need a key or faux key system to shut the thing off. But there's not consistency with the button and the secret 3-second power down (if computer is working right).
Leaving that out of the 2008 manual is a BIG problem now, in my humble opinion. Plus there's no consistency in shut down for computer-controlled key systems. My Cabrio (Whirlpool) requires hitting the cancel button twice, not holding it for 3 seconds. I see a real problem with the lack of a pattern in the buttons for canceling.
I almost stopped at the local Toyota dealer to look inside at a Camry's accelerator, but with the dragonlike sales attitudes I met in the past, I couldn't bring myself to try. Especially if I told the salesman what I wanted to see. He probably would have had me arrested.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Interesting - news to me.
Imidazol, don't know about the shifting. In the comments in the NY Times link, someone said the shift to neutral in the Lexus wasn't "straight" but you had to move the shifter laterally Another commenter said no, it was a straight shift in their gated shifter.
While we're piling on (nothing to do with reliability, but when it rains...)
Lawsuit Claims Woman Believed She Was Being Stalked Thanks to Toyota's Marketing Prank (ABC News)
I can understand not being able to check the pedal itself with a car full of screaming, scared people.
I can understand not knowing about the 3-second rule for turning off the motor--if there wasn't something wrong with the computer that wouldn't let the button turn it off.
I can understand the brakes not slowing the car due to no vacuum assist and to brake fade as soon as they overheated... Emergency brake?
But I can't understand the guy not shifting into neutral. :sick:
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Still, Bohuchot said sending letters isn't enough. She urged the auto giant to spend part of its advertising budget to publicize the problem more quickly.
"The company should "notify people in every way possible," she said."
"They simply can't rely on first-class mail and notices on their Web site," Vasquez said. "It's not unreasonable that they take a tenth of their advertising budget and dedicate it to the problem."--law firm representing the widow
That's never going to happen!!!
How many here think we're going to see ads on TV from Toyota about removing floor mats and seeing your dealer about the recall for compensation for extra mats you've added, etc. And 10% of their advertising budget!!! Whooo hooo. Ain't gonna happen.
I can see that ad on TV with a warning that accelerators were badly designed and can swedge into a thick mat because the accelerator goes to close to the horizontal floor. Fade to pictures of cars accelerating out of control. Fade to picture of finger putting car in neutral and turning off the key or pushing the button for 3 seconds. Fade to crash pictures. Then uplifting music and driver turning into the service entrance for his local Toyota dealership.
With music for ads being so much a part of the TV ads today, What kind of music for background do you use for that? Barbra Streisand? Dolly Parton? Deliverance type Blue Grass? Michael Buble singing in the background?
Be clear that it's sad that people died in these accidents.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I could post a picture of mine, but I don’t think it’s worth my time. I am sure someone will just say that I modified the photo, the way this forum is going. By the way, it still has the old all-weather floor mats that were recalled in late 2007, and they don't come anywhere near interfering with the accelerator, brake, or clutch. I use the hooks and only one all-weather mat, and that's all I’ve ever needed, even in the snowy North.
Why don't you see the article posted here? Very interesting, and it has pictures of many cars, including Toyota.
link title“Well, this recall is specific to Toyota and Lexus, but my mind flashes back to numerous times when my own floor mats got fowled with the pedals in several of my personal vehicles over the years, Toyota and non-Toyota alike.”
“Before we make the jump, take a gander at the photo above. This is a typical Toyota/Lexus floor mat installation: An top-hinged "pendulum-style" gas pedal is paired with a generous cut-out in the mat to produce a large clearance. The floor mat is kept from creeping forward by two plastic hooks just in front of the seat. As long as it remains hooked and the floor mat is the right size and shape, things should be fine.”
Again, I’ve experienced a stuck accelerator due to a floor mat moving in an old Mazda I had over 10 years ago. Fortunately, I there was no traffic around at the time, and I was able to pull it free in time. I am very sensitive about this kind of thing. If I was at all worried that this whole thing was a problem, I’d be screaming about it.
“>their fair share of recalls (OOPS!) I mean service bulletins.”
Come on, let’s work on the facts! Recalls are safety-related, while service bulletins are about issues not safety related. If it is safety-related, Honda and Toyota have to issue recalls – it is government –required.
By the way, I just read about someone's wife getting hit with the hatch of a 2003, I think CRV, and knocked out. I guess they should go after Honda! :sick:
Brand problems swept under the rug
Here's the pic (not all-weather mats though):
(Check out dg0472's comment at McDawgg's link about the gated shifter btw).
Pretty much sums it up regarding the pedal design.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is investigating 2004 and 2005 Toyota Sienna minivans for potential problems with their power liftgates. There have been 14 reports of the liftgates unexpectedly closing. A total of 142,418 Siennas are included in the investigation. This doesn’t appear to have anything to do with user error; the investigation is focusing on a faulty seal that could cause the high-pressure struts that raise the liftgate to leak, causing it to close unintentionally.
Toyota first knew about the problem in the 2004-2006 Sienna early on and was not going to fix any of the struts until the customer complained. NHTSA had to investigate and force them to fix all of them.
Cover-up?
I HAVE A 2004 TOYOTA SIENNA WITH AUTOMATIC REAR PASSENGER SLIDING DOOR. THE CABLE AND MOTOR MALFUNCTIONED IN JANUARY 2008. I WENT TO THE DEALER IN GAINESVILLE, FL. I WAS ADVISED THAT THE WHOLE ASSEMBLY WITH THE WIRE CORD HAD TO BE REPLACED AT THE COST OF ABOUT $ 1300.00. AFTER GETTING IT FIXED, THE SAME WIRE AND THE PLASTIC LATCH BROKE AGAIN ON 9/12/09. WENT TO THE DEALER ONLY TO BE INFORMED AGAIN THAT THE SAME PARTS NEED REPLACEMENT AT THE COST OF $ 1600.00. I BELIEVE THAT THE PART IS NOT PROPERLY DESIGNED, AND THE CONSUMERS HAVE TO PAY GREAT SUMS OF MONEY TO GET IT FIXES. *TR
There is 103 similar complaints in the ODI file for just the 2004 Sienna.
Power liftgates would be a bit of a different story. I always knew where my struts would end up since I'd have to help them beyond a certain point. New ones made little difference either.