I'm sure that is the case, although I agree with another comment here, that it isn't just the problems, it's the cover up. Toyota stonewalled about the sludge issue for years and tried to blame it on owners.
What's funny is, my very first new car was a 1976 Corolla, and it backfired frequently for no apparent reason. Being young and carefree at the time, I just lived with it.
All I want is a vehicle that is safe, reliable (good headlights, visibility, and brakes), and can tote my grandchildren and/or my 2 big goofy mutts around. I know all vehicles can and do have problems, but taking off at 95 unexpectedly is not one I am willing to accept. Do all new cars have computer controlled throttles, etc.? What about a Subaru Outback or a Volkswagen Passat wagon - are they still "old school" in their design so that a possessed computer won't take over the car?
Sheesh, it makes you afraid to even cross the street for fear of rogue vehicles!
The reason this particular problem, unintended acceleration, has everyone so riled up is the idea of loss of control. Yes, every time we get in our cars, we are at risk for being in an accident. People accept that as part of the hazards of life, but it is the idea of not being able to controly your car that is so scary to most folks. Whether it is realistic or not, we all like to think we might have some ability to avoid an accident by our own actions, but if the problem is an unresponsive vehicle, then the situation is completely beyond our control. Nobody wants to feel helpless behind the wheel of a car.
I agree that we should expect our cars to be safe but you should not be overly worried about this issue. I think it was CR that calculated the odds of being in an accident caused by a runaway Toyota as being about 10,000 to 1. And that is if you own and drive one of the recalled models.
So enjoy those goofy dogs and reserve your worries for things like the economy !!
Does the result from the investigation into Toyota have anything to do with the large investment our government has in Government Motors and/or all but dead Chrysler USA.???
Toyota will be blamed for every accident one of their vehicles is involved with, either the acceleration or the brakes must have caused the accident officer, not the 10 beers I just had.
Does the result from the investigation into Toyota have anything to do with the large investment our government has in Government Motors and/or all but dead Chrysler USA.???
Already asked by several of us here. Too bad Ford is the big benefactor of Toyotas problems, GM somewhat, but mostly Ford.
Mrpushrod,you are really pushing things here !! CR is biased!! C`mon-- dont make a pathetic excuse for the shabby D3 vehicles all these years /..They should have fixed things instead of whining !!
Does not CR have most Toyota vehicles marked as recommended !!!!
I worry about Toyotas and CR
"I agree that we should expect our cars to be safe but you should not be overly worried about this issue. I think it was CR that calculated the odds of being in an accident caused by a runaway Toyota as being about 10,000 to 1. And that is if you own and drive one of the recalled models."
There was a reason why Toyota, Honda, and Nissan were regarded as the best in terms of reliability and safety because before 2008 they were; pre-2008, GM, Ford, and Chrysler produced poorly made, unreliable cars that did not hold their value; I was at the brunt end of GM's poor reliability and cheap cars for almost 30 years with the Chevy's, Buicks, and Pontiacs I had and the 04 Malibu I had was the last straw for me
now fortunately for the big three domestic automakers, well maybe not Chrysler, but at least Ford and GM, since 2008 have begun a turn around with their cars in regards to quality and reliability; their long-term reliability remains to be seen since its only been about 2 years since the change around - we have to wait till they are 5 and 6 years old to see if long term reliability has changed
I don't see any of the bias your talking about, since 2008, consumer reports and USNWR have both given some very good marks and predicted reliability to several Ford and GM products
They trashed Ford, GM & Chrysler every opportunity of course they did, and indeed that's what their 1 million (or so) surveys were telling them. The D3 got exactly what they earned - a trashy reputation for relatively trashy products. Besides which, how can you explain CR' s supposed D3 bias with their recent recommendations of many Ford products. Maybe they just don't like GM and Chrysler? In that case if the shoe fits..... as far as Toyota 'on a pedestal', they have gotten exactly what they deserve as well. Problems with the massive volume Camry in 06-07 caused the whole brand to be removed from its 'automatic' list. The current set of recalls etc. will certainly bury the brand under your pedestal. Deservedly so. CR, however, calls them as we see 'em'. As far as Toyota (or CR) beng liable, a ridiculous notion that (I believe) requires proof of negligence - but one I'm sure the Saturday night ambulance chasers are lining up to get a piece of! :sick:
I agree with Houdini1. Things are not looking great for the car industry as a whole right now. At least Toyota didn't have to be taken over by the government. Toyota has always been a reliable brand and one that I support. It, like Ford in the past, may have some problems with a few of its vehicles. However, just like Ford back in the 90's, Toyota will recover and once again live up to it's honorable reputation which the company has worked hard to earn. I agree Houdini1, let's worry about the economy and let Toyota take care of itself without all the speculation and rumors.
What should really anger all car owners is that this deadly problem should have been detected by organizations that claim to test cars, such as Edmunds and Consumer Reports. It seems that if the car is not American, it gets a free pass. Consumer Reports admitted that it automatically gave recommendations just because Toyota made the vehicle. (I actually have a subscription to this fraudulent organization.) It would also be interesting to hear how Edmunds explains how it missed this, too. This is what a steady diet of Edmund reviews and Top Gear TV shows result in, biased non objective articles, in other words, lies.
As for the anti-American car bashing people, 646,000 Hondas are being recalled long with millions of Toyotas. Now, the only cars left for the anti-American car clowns to pimp as the best in the world will be German, except it you read the Fraudulent Consumer Reports, they put the German manufacturers quality below most Americans manufactures.
The Consumer Reports' bias is very obvious and the way they conduct the survey is totally flawed. They only gather data from their subscribers. For those people who do not agree with their bias, they won't renew the subscription thus won't be included in the survey. So the only people who participate the survey have the same bias as the magazine. It's like a Republican magazine conducts survey with their readers on which party is better. You know of course the result would be pro Republican.
Also being limited to what the editors own knowledge and driving skills, CR weights the reliability over everything else, like performance, driving fun, the way a car can create emotion and passion. Reliability is not everything.
The most reliable wife is usually the ugliest one...
Not saying that motortrend, CR, USNWR,etc didn't miss something in its test drive of certain Toyota vehicles but this idea that because they were Japanese car's gave them a pass is a bunch of BS; for instance, with CR, the 2009 Nissan Maxima was not recommended in its first model year till they got enough professional and consumer reports of any problems that could potentially give buyers a reason to not get one
suffice it to say that by the beginning of this year the 09 and 10 Maxima got the nod from CR as a recommended vehicle after waiting the year to see if substantial amounts of problems occurred and they didn't - you would think with the way some of you say they are bias that CR would have said, oh hey, its a Nissan so since its a Japanese car it must be good and let just recommend it - no, that not what they did they waited to get information either to support recommending it or not
I have good feeling that reliability and recommendation ratings for several Toyota models will fall this year by CR after recent events
anti-american car sentiment didn't just sprout over night, it was an accumulation of almost 30 years of poor quality and reliability coming out of all three main Detroit manufactures - and rightly so because there products were substandard when compared to foreign automakers
but as I have said, within the last two years that has begun to change; if it took almost 30 years of GM, Ford, and Chrysler stupidity, mis-management, and poor products to get them that reputation, it isn't something that is going to change overnight - its going to take years of good quality and LONG TERM reliability coming out of GM and Ford in order for that reputation to change and until we get a few more years post GM and Chrysler bankruptcy and restructuring some of that anti-american car sentiment is going to remain till they prove themselves!
Nonsense. I've been reading my father's CR magazines for 15 years. I bought my first new Datun in 1975, my first new Subaru in 1986 and my first new Toyota in 1987.
During this period my father, 2 uncles, 2 aunts and many other family members continued to buy the Big 3. They eventually gave up on the Big 3 because of problems, problems, problems. Problems the dealers could NOT FIX under warranty in many cases.
I can't figure out why CR loves the fancy Caddys when the reliability is so bad.
agreed, most people on here can't even give constructed criticism and what Toyota should do so that they don't get hurt to severely by recent problems with their vehicles
all they are concerned with is coming on here and trash talking Toyota about every single thing they did wrong; they all seem to forget about the 30 some odd years of poor quality/reliability and the numerous recalls all Ford, GM, and Chrysler products had year after year which resulted in their poor reputations
they didn't like it when someone came to a GM or Ford forum and trashed talked their crappy products back in the day but now they have sunken to the same level and come on Toyota forums to trash talk their mistakes which don't pale in comparison to 30 years of a mis-managed and poor products out of Detroit!
this discussion isn't for people to come on and talk about how terrible Toyota is and how no one should ever buy a car from them - let capitalism do its work and that will decide whether Toyota remains a forefront or not for car sales in the US
I notice again that toyota has retained a PR firm.
About the time of the sludge problems toyota had to admit is when some companies started trying using PR firm posters to try to counter negative posts on the internet. In fact, I believe I found one that showed up here on Edmunds and went to various forums attempting to get the forum shut down. He kept complaining about any negative posters on sludge that he claimed toyota didn't really have a problem with. Toyota or someone did get one forum purged of the complaints about sludge, I was told.
I suspect we'll start seeing that here as well on the unintended uncontrolled acceleration.
It seems that if the car is not American, it gets a free pass. the TOYOTA Camry just moved past the F150 as the most American made vehicle in terms of both parts and labor content - the only 'American' branded vehicle that was even close (besides PUs) is the Malibu.
Get off your own biases, and keep as much money as you can in this country - buy a Toyota!
BTW I don't understand how you can hold any vehicle testing/rating organization responsible for problems that are not reported to it and/or for problems that might surface years later after some wear and tear, well after they are done testing it. For example they (CR , Edmunds or whoever) would have no reason to believe that there was anything wrong with the design of a gas pedal until very recently as I'm confident the US manufacturer of that particular part didn't either. Even if they would test the vehicles they rate for tens of thousands of miles each , the chances that any given defect will show itself consistently is slim. Toyota did receive 'automatic' recommendations from a number of folks for years only because they earned it by producing a superior product for a long long time. If any of the so called 'American' mfgrs had been able to do the same, they too would have earned a similar recommendation. Further, had the D3 had shown the ability to do such things then maybe we don't have the taxpayers (and junk bondholders) paying for 'Detroit's' bad products, bad judgement, poor management and greed. Rest assured,though, if it is going to make you feel any better - the J3 'mystique' is taking a beating right now
What about a Subaru Outback or a Volkswagen Passat wagon - are they still "old school" in their design so that a possessed computer won't take over the car?
No, they have both had electronic throttles for several years.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't think there is a single new car for sale in the US that doesn't have DBW. There are way too many benefits to DBW to drop it for throttle cables again. If you want real stability control that actually works you need DBW. Throttle cables can stick do and did so at a much greater rate then a DBW car might.
DBW is really the only way to get these new 'safety' features to work correctly - unless I can electronically cut throttle, for example, while simultaneously braking a single wheel - 'stabililty control and even traction control' systems won't do what they are supposed to do. But it's not like we didn't have problems like this (stuck or broken throttle cables as you note) in the 'old' days either - only that now we more variables in the equation - software bugs and computer programmers. We all need to send our erstwhile kneejerk politicians our sincere thanks - mandated for 2010 models and we happily leave the driving to the computer nerd who in effect is estimating all our driving abilities, or more properly inabilities. .
smarty666 says:"here was a reason why Toyota, Honda, and Nissan were regarded as the best in terms of reliability"
Daa, the Ford Fusion (NOT Toyota Camry, Honda Accord or Maxima) is the most reliable fuel efficient midsized vehicle sold in America. This is according to Consumer Reports biased non-random survey too. The Fusion is sooooo much more reliable than the crap from Toyota it took both CR and J.D. Powers surveys. It is the Lexus LS460 & Avalon that posted the slowest speeds in Consumer Reports accident avoidance maneuvers. Please smarty give up the posting, you obviously do get out very often. You are defending a biased magazine that rated the poorest handling vehicle sold in America (Lexus LS460) a 99 out of 100. How can you really add to this conversation if you don't even know what the biased CR magazine posts.
you didn't even listen to a word I said in my post; your so busy being angry and anti-Japanese that your taking what other people are saying and twisting it;
I said that since 2008, CR has recommended and gave good marks to several Ford and GM vehicles, the Fusion being one of them; your comparison's aren't even close, the Maxima and Accord don't even try to be the most fuel efficient vehicles since they don't even have hybrid versions of themselves so your comparing apples to oranges ( you want to compare fuel efficient mid-size sedans try the fusion, camry, altima, and malibu then you'll have the right comparisons)
how can you really add to the conversation when you can't even come up with correct comparison and your so angry that CR and other professional mags didn't rate your vehicle highly or the way you wanted it to you say the whole thing is a sham, give me a break! I'm assuming you have a pre-2008 GM, Chrysler, or Ford vehicle which would explain your anger
plus this is suppose to be a discussion about Toyota and their future not whether CR is biased or not - read the discussion heads before you post next time
There is an American Company that cares less about the safety of their customers than Toyota (if you can believe that). Consumer Reports (a biased magazine) built its reputation and customer base by steering Americans away from domestic autos. For years now they have recommended Toyota’s regardless of performance and safety. They built almost a cult following customer base that blindly believed the big three (Toyota, Honda & Nissan) were the only manufacturer that produced safe reliable vehicles. Consumer Reports fed their cult following to sell more magazines. They trashed Ford, GM & Chrysler every opportunity and put Toyota on a pedestal. If you read CRs forums you would understand this is exactly what CR’s customer base (cult) wanted to hear. Consumer Reports has long ignored the safety of Toyota vehicles. For example: CR’s two highest scoring (score derived by auto testers) vehicles (Lexus LS460 & Toyota Avalon) actually posted the lowest scores on CR’s accident avoidance test. The LS460 actually obtained CRs highest test score 99 out of a 100 yet it is not capable of avoiding an accident. To add further insult to the domestics, CR’s reliability surveys were only sent to CRs customer base and not a random audience like reputable surveys such as J. D. Powers. CR’s survey leads the witness. Therefore CRs reliability survey data does not correlate with data taken from random surveys. Consumer Reports auto testers were well aware of Toyota’s safety issues for years now. They ignored the data and recommended every single Toyota product until days after Toyota issued the recall and stopped selling vehicles. CR is well aware of Toyota’s woes (Tundra is plagued with rotted brakelines, rotted frames, bad ball joints and failing camshaft, sticking gas pedals, poorly designed gas pedals, engine sludge issues dangerous engine hesitations, poor accident avoidance speeds, an electronic module that can cause unexplained acceleration, faulty brakes and much more). We should hold CR liable for the deaths since they recommended Toyota’s to their customers even though they knew about their safety issues for years now.
Very accurate and well stated!
Here is my favorite link regarding Consumer Reports:
Here is a quick simple solution to put this to rest and it doesn't require brain surgery, if you think CR is so biased do what I do and most other intelligent people do, you don't just go when deciding on a car and listen to the reviews and opinions of just one source you take the consensus of a bunch of sources
I myself look at CR, USNWR, JD Power, MotorTrend, CG, Car and Driver and take the consensus of what the group of sources says about a car and use that to form your own opinion and if you want to get that car or not.
Hey revit, I haven't read anything yet you posted that related to the discussion topic at hand; I'd love to know if you think Toyota is going to be on the mend for 2010 or do you think this latest situation is going to take longer than that?
I'd really love to hear your opinion on the topic at hand rather than seeing link after link about how much you hate Toyota! Let get some constructive criticism going don't you think?
I haven't read anything yet you posted that related to the discussion topic at hand
Actually, I am sorry you feel that way. Just because you don't agree with my postings which reflect "Toyota is not going to be on the mend for 2010", we are each entitled to our own opinion. We can agree to disagree.
I have no idea whether Toyota will be on the mend this year. It certainly has started off as a disaster. I think the longer they drag their feet, instead of invoking a comprehensive fix (hardware/firmware/software/electronics), the longer it will take them to recover.
They need to drop the blame game (suppliers, user error, problems everywhere else except Japan, etc) and just come forward....even if it's only to say "we don't know what's wrong, but we're investigating every report, every possible cause, and every possible fix".
I do think this will lead to a "new" Toyota, though. Eventually, they're going to have to face the reality they're currently in....it ain't good, either.
And, they're going to have to change their goals from being #1 in sales, at the expense of their core competency, to being the company that revamped their entire quality and safety targets/processes to be the best in the world.
Before they can do that, they have to admit their issues, right now. Commit to fixing them...permanently. And, put safety and quality at the very top of their list of corporate objectives, regardless of where their products are made.
Those are all tall orders. Won't happen this year, probably not next year, maybe not even the year after that. I've seen some reports stating that it may take 5 years of progressive improvement before they can even approach the reputation they had not so long ago. Employees, stock holders, management, dealers, customers....all will suffer through this in one form or another until Toyota recommits itself and looks for comprehensive solutions and measurable improvements.
The sooner they admit their problems, the sooner they can start to improve.
I'm not surprised Toyota vehicle resale values have dropped, that was to be expected! I did like the idea of once these recalls are addressed/fixed that mags like CRs and others should retest the affected vehicles and give new reviews, etc!
They should make that standard procedure if there is a massive recall on a specific vehicle or groups of vehicles, have them retested and reviewed again!
Actually smarty I did listen: My reference to reliability goes to prior to 2008 period. I am talking about 4 year reliability. The redesigned 2007-2010 V6 Camry has consistently rated worst than average or at best average according to the biased (toward Toyota, Honda & Nissan) reliability survey??? Mercury Milan, Ford Fusion, and Lincoln derivatives have been consistently rated much better than average since their debut in 2005. It is sad that CR’s reliability surveys are biased because it causes them to not recommend great vehicles such as the Cadillac CTS on the one hand and on the other they recommend junk like the Camry which is all about biased perceived quality (or cult CR cult quality). My about point about fuel efficient was just that. If you want the most fuel efficient midsized sedan, it is the Fusion by far. That said, arguing over a mile or 2 more MPGs between four & 6 cylinder configurations of different makes is moot as the cost differential is moot. Although this is changing too as Ford has been making strides with their new engines such as the 305HP mustang V6. And FYI, the you are wrong about the Accord (you know, the car with the undersized rear brakes), it definitely competes with the Fusion.
agree with you on your points about Toyota; I too think is it going to take longer than just 2010, I think it might not be until 2012 when we see a change with Toyota for the better again because even if they are able to fix all the hardware and software problems they are having it still doesn't fix the fact that the majority, myself included, have felt that the last several model years have seen a drop in quality, fit and finish, etc with some Toyota models, the Camry in particular
until Toyota can get to the next gen Camry and really improve the quality/fit and finish on their vehicles back to pre-2001 models they are going to be in the tanker for a long haul!
>I have no idea whether Toyota will be on the mend this year.
The title used to be Toyota on Decline in 20 Oh 9. Notice it rhymes.
The recent new title (little did we know what was coming) became Toyota on the Mend in twenty ten.
Sort of rhymes.
The point is the topic is Toyota and what is happening to it. That includes their culpability with the runaway accelerations and other problems. In my mind, the topic is not limited by having to be about being on the mend. If so, there needs to be a quick title change.
Maybe some title suggestions could improve the cute titling to be more representative by of the deep doo doo toyota has put itself into. "Where is toyota headed?" "What is happening at toyota?"
actually you didn't listen yet again, I wasn't arguing with you in regards to the Fusion Hybrid being the most fuel efficient because it is, in fact Motor Trend had a really great article sometime last year that compared the camry, altima, fusion, and malibu hybrids and I think the fusion came out on top if I'm not mistaken followed by the altima
FYI I didn't say the accord could not be compared to the Fusion, I said in regards to fuel economy the accord doesn't even compete or come close should I say to the fuel economy that you can get with the Fusion, that was all I was saying; if you look at the various mid-size sedan forums for mpg on edmunds you'll see that the fusion gets the best mpg followed by the altima/malibu, then the camry, and lastly the accord; for God sake the Accord doesn't even have a Hybrid version that could even compete
I'm sorry but I respectively disagree with you, before 2008, Ford, GM, and Chrysler did not have good quality and reliability; I was at the brunt end of GM poor reliability with my 04 Malibu and several family members at Fords poor reliability in 2005 models which we all subsequently had to get rid of because parts were failing apart after just 2-3 years
If those Fords and GM vehicles you mentioned were so reliable as you claim then there would have been no reason GM and Chrysler had to take billions of dollars in Gov't bailout and subsequently bankruptcy to get the fire burning under their butt
I do give Ford some respect that they didn't have to get the bailout and bankruptcy that GM and Chrysler did because they started planning their restructuring long before GM and Chrysler ever did
since 2008, Ford and GM have made great progress in their quality and INITIAL RELIABILITY but their long-term reliability remains to be seen since it hasn't been that long since restructuring and reorganization of those companies but we r going to have to wait a few more years to see if long-term reliability has improved but if their new models are any indications, I think Ford and GM will be on the right track to becoming great car companies again!
I would think that a Ford fan would have a little more empathy for all these Toyota recalls. Ford is still the recall champ with over 14 million during their last couple of episodes. Toyota is only around 10 million.
They need to drop the blame game (suppliers, user error, problems everywhere else except Japan, etc) and just come forward....even if it's only to say "we don't know what's wrong, but we're investigating every report, every possible cause, and every possible fix".
While I agree with you 110% on principle, I am not sure a company selling about 4000 vehicles PER DAY can afford to say "we don't know what's wrong but you can suuure betcher butt we will be working on it!"
Hence the bogus shim thing. Why they can't implement the brake override thing sooner than this fall in production I just don't know - it's not like this is virgin territory, there are several other companies that have already been doing this for quite a while......and if they had it ready to go, they could do it as a recall data fix for all the existing cars and really put the problem to bed.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Why they can't implement the brake override thing sooner than this fall in production I just don't know
That is the bottom line. Make it safe for the average driver and Toyota has a shot at getting back on track in 2010. I really believe Toyota was expecting people to give them high marks for the shim fix. I cannot imagine the NHTSA buying into that kind of kludge fix. That is worse than the tyraps for floor mats.
They're trickling this stuff out. When, they had reports of what's happening now, years ago. But, they either stuck their heads in the sand, pretending they'd just go away, or what we suspect with all the evidence, they destroyed evidence that any problems even existed.
They've got to come forward. Tell investigators all they truly know. Devise a plan to address the issues (instead of every day, a new report crops up, just adding insult to injury by dragging their feet even more).
It's like they're keeping their fingers crossed hoping it will all just go away. It won't. One more accident because of UA, failing brakes, glitchy electronics and what is now a raging fire, will turn into an inferno (hopefully not literally).
Sticking to the thread, the longer they wait, the more they play hide and seek with the facts, the longer the recovery will take for them to get started on.
>But, they either stuck their heads in the sand, pretending they'd just go away, or what we suspect with all the evidence, they destroyed evidence that any problems even existed.
This article pretty well explains what Toyota did.
target="_blank">http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/05/report-after-nhtsa-investigator-hired-by-toyo- - ta-serious-uninte/ "According to ABC News, the limited scope of the investigations ruled out 26 of the original 37 claims of unintended acceleration. A reported 25 of those 26 incidents led to an accident or crash, and since those incidents were outside of the scope of the investigations, NHTSA never looked into the incidents. Sean Kane of Safety Research & Strategies told ABC News that the narrow scope of the investigation meant "NHTSA almost ensured they wouldn't have enough complaint data to take action."
"The extremely limited and nonsensical scope of the investigations between 2004 and 2007 continually failed to show any failures, and Toyota routinely pointed that out when the subject was brought up even in the weeks that led to the original recall of 3.8 million floor mats in the fall of 2009. In fact, ABC News claims that a document provided by Toyota to NHTSA stated that the Japanese automaker would not even submit a report to the government "in which the customer alleged that they could not control a vehicle by applying the brake.""
Comments
Toyota's Powerful Friends
What's funny is, my very first new car was a 1976 Corolla, and it backfired frequently for no apparent reason. Being young and carefree at the time, I just lived with it.
All I want is a vehicle that is safe, reliable (good headlights, visibility, and brakes), and can tote my grandchildren and/or my 2 big goofy mutts around. I know all vehicles can and do have problems, but taking off at 95 unexpectedly is not one I am willing to accept. Do all new cars have computer controlled throttles, etc.? What about a Subaru Outback or a Volkswagen Passat wagon - are they still "old school" in their design so that a possessed computer won't take over the car?
Sheesh, it makes you afraid to even cross the street for fear of rogue vehicles!
So enjoy those goofy dogs and reserve your worries for things like the economy !!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Already asked by several of us here. Too bad Ford is the big benefactor of Toyotas problems, GM somewhat, but mostly Ford.
I worry about Toyotas and CR
"I agree that we should expect our cars to be safe but you should not be overly worried about this issue. I think it was CR that calculated the odds of being in an accident caused by a runaway Toyota as being about 10,000 to 1. And that is if you own and drive one of the recalled models."
Does CR expect you not to worry!!
now fortunately for the big three domestic automakers, well maybe not Chrysler, but at least Ford and GM, since 2008 have begun a turn around with their cars in regards to quality and reliability; their long-term reliability remains to be seen since its only been about 2 years since the change around - we have to wait till they are 5 and 6 years old to see if long term reliability has changed
I don't see any of the bias your talking about, since 2008, consumer reports and USNWR have both given some very good marks and predicted reliability to several Ford and GM products
of course they did, and indeed that's what their 1 million (or so) surveys were telling them. The D3 got exactly what they earned - a trashy reputation for relatively trashy products. Besides which, how can you explain CR' s supposed D3 bias with their recent recommendations of many Ford products. Maybe they just don't like GM and Chrysler? In that case if the shoe fits.....
as far as Toyota 'on a pedestal', they have gotten exactly what they deserve as well. Problems with the massive volume Camry in 06-07 caused the whole brand to be removed from its 'automatic' list. The current set of recalls etc. will certainly bury the brand under your pedestal. Deservedly so.
CR, however, calls them as we see 'em'.
As far as Toyota (or CR) beng liable, a ridiculous notion that (I believe) requires proof of negligence - but one I'm sure the Saturday night ambulance chasers are lining up to get a piece of! :sick:
As for the anti-American car bashing people, 646,000 Hondas are being recalled long with millions of Toyotas. Now, the only cars left for the anti-American car clowns to pimp as the best in the world will be German, except it you read the Fraudulent Consumer Reports, they put the German manufacturers quality below most Americans manufactures.
The Consumer Reports' bias is very obvious and the way they conduct the survey is totally flawed. They only gather data from their subscribers. For those people who do not agree with their bias, they won't renew the subscription thus won't be included in the survey. So the only people who participate the survey have the same bias as the magazine. It's like a Republican magazine conducts survey with their readers on which party is better. You know of course the result would be pro Republican.
Also being limited to what the editors own knowledge and driving skills, CR weights the reliability over everything else, like performance, driving fun, the way a car can create emotion and passion. Reliability is not everything.
The most reliable wife is usually the ugliest one...
suffice it to say that by the beginning of this year the 09 and 10 Maxima got the nod from CR as a recommended vehicle after waiting the year to see if substantial amounts of problems occurred and they didn't - you would think with the way some of you say they are bias that CR would have said, oh hey, its a Nissan so since its a Japanese car it must be good and let just recommend it - no, that not what they did they waited to get information either to support recommending it or not
I have good feeling that reliability and recommendation ratings for several Toyota models will fall this year by CR after recent events
anti-american car sentiment didn't just sprout over night, it was an accumulation of almost 30 years of poor quality and reliability coming out of all three main Detroit manufactures - and rightly so because there products were substandard when compared to foreign automakers
but as I have said, within the last two years that has begun to change; if it took almost 30 years of GM, Ford, and Chrysler stupidity, mis-management, and poor products to get them that reputation, it isn't something that is going to change overnight - its going to take years of good quality and LONG TERM reliability coming out of GM and Ford in order for that reputation to change and until we get a few more years post GM and Chrysler bankruptcy and restructuring some of that anti-american car sentiment is going to remain till they prove themselves!
During this period my father, 2 uncles, 2 aunts and many other family members continued to buy the Big 3. They eventually gave up on the Big 3 because of problems, problems, problems. Problems the dealers could NOT FIX under warranty in many cases.
I can't figure out why CR loves the fancy Caddys when the reliability is so bad.
all they are concerned with is coming on here and trash talking Toyota about every single thing they did wrong; they all seem to forget about the 30 some odd years of poor quality/reliability and the numerous recalls all Ford, GM, and Chrysler products had year after year which resulted in their poor reputations
they didn't like it when someone came to a GM or Ford forum and trashed talked their crappy products back in the day but now they have sunken to the same level and come on Toyota forums to trash talk their mistakes which don't pale in comparison to 30 years of a mis-managed and poor products out of Detroit!
this discussion isn't for people to come on and talk about how terrible Toyota is and how no one should ever buy a car from them - let capitalism do its work and that will decide whether Toyota remains a forefront or not for car sales in the US
I notice again that toyota has retained a PR firm.
About the time of the sludge problems toyota had to admit is when some companies started trying using PR firm posters to try to counter negative posts on the internet. In fact, I believe I found one that showed up here on Edmunds and went to various forums attempting to get the forum shut down. He kept complaining about any negative posters on sludge that he claimed toyota didn't really have a problem with. Toyota or someone did get one forum purged of the complaints about sludge, I was told.
I suspect we'll start seeing that here as well on the unintended uncontrolled acceleration.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
the TOYOTA Camry just moved past the F150 as the most American made vehicle in terms of both parts and labor content - the only 'American' branded vehicle that was even close (besides PUs) is the Malibu.
Get off your own biases, and keep as much money as you can in this country - buy a Toyota!
BTW I don't understand how you can hold any vehicle testing/rating organization responsible for problems that are not reported to it and/or for problems that might surface years later after some wear and tear, well after they are done testing it. For example they (CR , Edmunds or whoever) would have no reason to believe that there was anything wrong with the design of a gas pedal until very recently as I'm confident the US manufacturer of that particular part didn't either. Even if they would test the vehicles they rate for tens of thousands of miles each , the chances that any given defect will show itself consistently is slim.
Toyota did receive 'automatic' recommendations from a number of folks for years only because they earned it by producing a superior product for a long long time. If any of the so called 'American' mfgrs had been able to do the same, they too would have earned a similar recommendation. Further, had the D3 had shown the ability to do such things then maybe we don't have the taxpayers (and junk bondholders) paying for 'Detroit's' bad products, bad judgement, poor management and greed.
Rest assured,though, if it is going to make you feel any better - the J3 'mystique' is taking a beating right now
And they never disclose their sample population. :shades:
No, they have both had electronic throttles for several years.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
No, not at all...imidazol97, you nailed it!
We all need to send our erstwhile kneejerk politicians our sincere thanks - mandated for 2010 models and we happily leave the driving to the computer nerd who in effect is estimating all our driving abilities, or more properly inabilities. .
Daa, the Ford Fusion (NOT Toyota Camry, Honda Accord or Maxima) is the most reliable fuel efficient midsized vehicle sold in America. This is according to Consumer Reports biased non-random survey too. The Fusion is sooooo much more reliable than the crap from Toyota it took both CR and J.D. Powers surveys. It is the Lexus LS460 & Avalon that posted the slowest speeds in Consumer Reports accident avoidance maneuvers. Please smarty give up the posting, you obviously do get out very often. You are defending a biased magazine that rated the poorest handling vehicle sold in America (Lexus LS460) a 99 out of 100. How can you really add to this conversation if you don't even know what the biased CR magazine posts.
I said that since 2008, CR has recommended and gave good marks to several Ford and GM vehicles, the Fusion being one of them; your comparison's aren't even close, the Maxima and Accord don't even try to be the most fuel efficient vehicles since they don't even have hybrid versions of themselves so your comparing apples to oranges ( you want to compare fuel efficient mid-size sedans try the fusion, camry, altima, and malibu then you'll have the right comparisons)
how can you really add to the conversation when you can't even come up with correct comparison and your so angry that CR and other professional mags didn't rate your vehicle highly or the way you wanted it to you say the whole thing is a sham, give me a break! I'm assuming you have a pre-2008 GM, Chrysler, or Ford vehicle which would explain your anger
plus this is suppose to be a discussion about Toyota and their future not whether CR is biased or not - read the discussion heads before you post next time
also, an article about the media, etc. link title
Very accurate and well stated!
Here is my favorite link regarding Consumer Reports:
Statistical Problems of Consumer Reports
I myself look at CR, USNWR, JD Power, MotorTrend, CG, Car and Driver and take the consensus of what the group of sources says about a car and use that to form your own opinion and if you want to get that car or not.
I'd really love to hear your opinion on the topic at hand rather than seeing link after link about how much you hate Toyota! Let get some constructive criticism going don't you think?
Actually, I am sorry you feel that way. Just because you don't agree with my postings which reflect "Toyota is not going to be on the mend for 2010", we are each entitled to our own opinion. We can agree to disagree.
Savvy Shopper: Toyota's Resale Values Fluctuate Over Misfortunes (Edmunds Daily)
For those wanting to pile on Edmunds and Consumer Reports, here's the story via the Washington Post:
Auto reliability ratings might not be reliable with problems such as Toyota's
One place for a quick look at Edmunds' ratings without having to read the comparisons and reviews would be the Top 10 Lists.
They need to drop the blame game (suppliers, user error, problems everywhere else except Japan, etc) and just come forward....even if it's only to say "we don't know what's wrong, but we're investigating every report, every possible cause, and every possible fix".
I do think this will lead to a "new" Toyota, though. Eventually, they're going to have to face the reality they're currently in....it ain't good, either.
And, they're going to have to change their goals from being #1 in sales, at the expense of their core competency, to being the company that revamped their entire quality and safety targets/processes to be the best in the world.
Before they can do that, they have to admit their issues, right now. Commit to fixing them...permanently. And, put safety and quality at the very top of their list of corporate objectives, regardless of where their products are made.
Those are all tall orders. Won't happen this year, probably not next year, maybe not even the year after that. I've seen some reports stating that it may take 5 years of progressive improvement before they can even approach the reputation they had not so long ago. Employees, stock holders, management, dealers, customers....all will suffer through this in one form or another until Toyota recommits itself and looks for comprehensive solutions and measurable improvements.
The sooner they admit their problems, the sooner they can start to improve.
I'm not surprised Toyota vehicle resale values have dropped, that was to be expected! I did like the idea of once these recalls are addressed/fixed that mags like CRs and others should retest the affected vehicles and give new reviews, etc!
They should make that standard procedure if there is a massive recall on a specific vehicle or groups of vehicles, have them retested and reviewed again!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
until Toyota can get to the next gen Camry and really improve the quality/fit and finish on their vehicles back to pre-2001 models they are going to be in the tanker for a long haul!
The title used to be
Toyota on Decline
in 20 Oh 9.
Notice it rhymes.
The recent new title (little did we know what was coming) became
Toyota on the Mend
in twenty ten.
Sort of rhymes.
The point is the topic is Toyota and what is happening to it. That includes their culpability with the runaway accelerations and other problems. In my mind, the topic is not limited by having to be about being on the mend. If so, there needs to be a quick title change.
Maybe some title suggestions could improve the cute titling to be more representative by of the deep doo doo toyota has put itself into.
"Where is toyota headed?"
"What is happening at toyota?"
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
FYI I didn't say the accord could not be compared to the Fusion, I said in regards to fuel economy the accord doesn't even compete or come close should I say to the fuel economy that you can get with the Fusion, that was all I was saying; if you look at the various mid-size sedan forums for mpg on edmunds you'll see that the fusion gets the best mpg followed by the altima/malibu, then the camry, and lastly the accord; for God sake the Accord doesn't even have a Hybrid version that could even compete
I'm sorry but I respectively disagree with you, before 2008, Ford, GM, and Chrysler did not have good quality and reliability; I was at the brunt end of GM poor reliability with my 04 Malibu and several family members at Fords poor reliability in 2005 models which we all subsequently had to get rid of because parts were failing apart after just 2-3 years
If those Fords and GM vehicles you mentioned were so reliable as you claim then there would have been no reason GM and Chrysler had to take billions of dollars in Gov't bailout and subsequently bankruptcy to get the fire burning under their butt
I do give Ford some respect that they didn't have to get the bailout and bankruptcy that GM and Chrysler did because they started planning their restructuring long before GM and Chrysler ever did
since 2008, Ford and GM have made great progress in their quality and INITIAL RELIABILITY but their long-term reliability remains to be seen since it hasn't been that long since restructuring and reorganization of those companies but we r going to have to wait a few more years to see if long-term reliability has improved but if their new models are any indications, I think Ford and GM will be on the right track to becoming great car companies again!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
While I agree with you 110% on principle, I am not sure a company selling about 4000 vehicles PER DAY can afford to say "we don't know what's wrong but you can suuure betcher butt we will be working on it!"
Hence the bogus shim thing. Why they can't implement the brake override thing sooner than this fall in production I just don't know - it's not like this is virgin territory, there are several other companies that have already been doing this for quite a while......and if they had it ready to go, they could do it as a recall data fix for all the existing cars and really put the problem to bed.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That is the bottom line. Make it safe for the average driver and Toyota has a shot at getting back on track in 2010. I really believe Toyota was expecting people to give them high marks for the shim fix. I cannot imagine the NHTSA buying into that kind of kludge fix. That is worse than the tyraps for floor mats.
They've got to come forward. Tell investigators all they truly know. Devise a plan to address the issues (instead of every day, a new report crops up, just adding insult to injury by dragging their feet even more).
It's like they're keeping their fingers crossed hoping it will all just go away. It won't. One more accident because of UA, failing brakes, glitchy electronics and what is now a raging fire, will turn into an inferno (hopefully not literally).
Sticking to the thread, the longer they wait, the more they play hide and seek with the facts, the longer the recovery will take for them to get started on.
This article pretty well explains what Toyota did.
lasting two seconds or less when the brake was never applied. The report states that the memorandum came down after agency representative Scott Yon met with two former colleagues (including Chris Santucci) who left the government to work for Toyota. Santucci testified back in December that the limited scope of investigations "worked out well for both the agency and Toyota."
target="_blank">http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/05/report-after-nhtsa-investigator-hired-by-toyo- - ta-serious-uninte/
"According to ABC News, the limited scope of the investigations ruled out 26 of the original 37 claims of unintended acceleration. A reported 25 of those 26 incidents led to an accident or crash, and since those incidents were outside of the scope of the investigations, NHTSA never looked into the incidents. Sean Kane of Safety Research & Strategies told ABC News that the narrow scope of the investigation meant "NHTSA almost ensured they wouldn't have enough complaint data to take action."
"The extremely limited and nonsensical scope of the investigations between 2004 and 2007 continually failed to show any failures, and Toyota routinely pointed that out when the subject was brought up even in the weeks that led to the original recall of 3.8 million floor mats in the fall of 2009. In fact, ABC News claims that a document provided by Toyota to NHTSA stated that the Japanese automaker would not even submit a report to the government "in which the customer alleged that they could not control a vehicle by applying the brake.""
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Back in the gel days, we had a Toyota rep posting for a couple of weeks. I'm not sure if Toyota felt that it helped them or not.
Engine Sludge/Oil Gelling--Toyota's Customer Response