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Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Currently the Terrain and Equinox are rated the same by CU for both v6 and 4cyl models and all are recommended and the So I don't see what the big deal is. Audio is rated the same. So if their was an error, it looks like it's been corrected.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,852
    With the hindsight of one whole additional year, yes.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,852
    That's not my argument, it was the guy before me's. Customer expectations shouldn't factor into reliability reviews. As far as I'm concerned, they're identical vehicles (except I like the Terrain's styling better). I was almost pulled into the jaws of being an Equinox owner by my wife, but luckily she came around! I just detest the styling. And I'm a Chevrolet guy and I'm saying that.
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  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    SO then you agree the Terrain is a duplicate of the Equinox and a pointless waste of money on GM's part?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,852
    It is a different style so it gives the consumer an additional choice. I'm all for that. Unlike most people here, I'm not into being a bean-counter at GM. I like good value and think it's a good thing. I also miss the old days when customer choice was many times greater than now. Two styles of the same vehicle is not a waste IMHO. Four lines of basically the same-styled car, as GM did in the '80's with the Celebrity/Ciera/6000/Century, IMHO, was a waste then although it did give all those dealers something to sell.
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  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Guess what? Not keeping proper count of those beans leads to bailouts and bankruptcy. A good business makes sure that they bring more beans in then they send out. Bottom line: that's the only measure of how good a company is, and how successful they are.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    Four lines of basically the same-styled car, as GM did in the '80's with the Celebrity/Ciera/6000/Century, IMHO, was a waste then although it did give all those dealers something to sell.

    I think people were a lot more brand loyal in those days, so IMO at least, having those four car lines made sense. In fact, GM's A-body accounted for 3 of the top ten selling cars in 1985, as the Celebrity, Cutlass Ciera, and Century were all strong sellers back then. The Pontiac 6000 sold reasonably well, but not quite enough to make the cut.

    My guess is that they easily sold 1M A-bodies for 1985. If you took away 3 of the nameplates and just went with one car, I seriously doubt that one car would have sold anywhere near 1M units. A Buick Century buyer would probably be happy with a Cutlass Ciera, but I have a feeling the Celebrity would be too "plebian" and the 6000 too "boy racer". Similarly, a 6000 buyer would probably think a Celebrity too plain, and a Ciera or a Century too stuffy and old fogey. And the Celebrity buyer, perhaps that's all they could afford, or wanted to pay for a car, so the extra expense of the others would be lost on them.

    Personally, I'd take the Terrain over the Equinox as well. I don't care for the SRX though. I think its price point cheapens the Cadillac brand.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    And the SRX. They also have the Captiva on the same platform under the same Chevy brand name. Then there is the ancient Suzuki XL-7 which is supposedly also a Theta platform mate.

    Rebadging is still alive and well, that will never go away...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,852
    Isn't Mexico "North America"?
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,852
    edited November 2012
    You or I can't buy a Captiva, however. Fleet only.

    Not to mention, the Captiva is the old Saturn Vue. I don't think too many people will mistake it for an SRX, the way some folks might between a Ford Edge and the Lincoln equivalent, with the same sheetmetal.
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  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Not to mention, the Captiva is the old Saturn Vue.

    Too bad, I actually like the looks of the Captiva better than GM's other small SUVs.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    That's because that's the only "small" SUV GM has. The Equinox and its brethren are midsizers. They're on the small end of midisize, but they're too big to be considered "compact."
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2012
    ....will make or break reliability

    But it doesn't, that's my point. Not much data to even go by.

    Edit: dieselone beat me to it.

    They also had said there were different reliability results for the Torrent and first Equinox, which is really ridiculous

    Now that's not true because they didn't have a large enough sample of Torrent to report on those.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,852
    edited November 2012
    Well, I know what I saw. It's more likely that you just didn't see it than I'm making it up. Come on, geez.

    This is kind of like our "Automobile" magazine discussion about Sonata recalls last year.
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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Your source made a mistake on that occasion. Remember Automobile even contradicted themselves in terms of the # of recalls for that model.

    Point is a slight difference should not be a surprise. Squeeks and rattles come from things like interior moldings, which differ from 'nox to Terrain.

    It's not like one was a star and the other was a lemon.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited November 2012
    The 1957 Chevy Nomad is still my favorite car of all time. My neighbor has two that he lets me drool over. He also has a black 1955 Chevy convertible that is perfectly restored. One of his daily drivers is a 55 Chevy wagon. However his dad recently died and left him a 2001 Buick Park Avenue. That seems to be his daily driver of choice. Said he is getting soft in his old age and likes that luxury ride and comfort.

    Why don't you own a '55 or '57 Chev, man? They are awesome. I always remember everyone (OK, almost everyone!) always left out the '56 Chevy amongst their favorites, but I kinda like it. Not as much as the '55, which is my favorite. The '57 comes in 2nd for me.

    The one I really want ta get is a '62-'65 Chevy Nova II. Love 'em!

    I'm gonna go back in time and respond ta steve's comment that came after this post. I don't like the column shifters either, unfortunately, Chevy loved them at that time. The '62 Nova II had them, too. One sorta like this, though this looks more like a '64 Chevy Nova.

    image
    Nope-I was thinking I poached a white Nova for this pic, but this
    one is a legitimate '62 red Nova II. Dig it.

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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2012
    Learned to drive stick on a '57. Three on a tree. Can't stand them and not fond of column shifters either. :P

    I'd rather have the gutless '59 automatic we had for a while than a '57. The flat fins were much cooler.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....Guess what? Not keeping proper count of those beans leads to bailouts and bankruptcy."

    In a way, so true. I remember Bob Lutz asking the beancounters a few years back that if today, they had $4000 "on the hood" of a new Impala, and by investing another $500 in better quality materials allowed them to take $2000 of the $4K "off the hood" would they not be making an extra $1500?

    Their answer; "I guess, that's one way of looking at it, but we don't see it that way"

    All they saw was "spending" an extra $500 per car.

    THAT type of thinking leads to bankruptcy.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Ya could have always cut a hole in the floor and stuck a shifter on. My buddy did it in his '72 Ford F100
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    That's what happens when those $4000 come out of marketing's budget rather than operations. You see, as far as you, the division that builds the car is concerned, you'd be spending an extra $500 per car. That $4000 doesn't count against you in any way, so why worry about it?

    That's partially a corporate culture problem. You're hiding the loss on the car by disassociating the expense of selling it from the cost of actually building it. So year, that $500 saved means you're making $3000 on the car, yay!! The fact that is costs an extra $4000 to sell the car in the first place is someone else's problem.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,852
    That grille and headlight surrounds definintely indicate that as a '65 Chevy II, last year of that bodystyle (and my favorite of the '62-'65 years). If someone says it's a '62, they have absolutely, positively retrofitted the '65 front-end trim on it.

    Easy way to tell from the back, is the '65 is the only one of those years that has one square taillight next to one backup light on each side.
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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2012
    Cut? Cars back in those days came with their own holes in the floor (not immediately, it'd take a few years for them to rust through).

    The '53 Buick in the family rusted out the front passenger side floor first for some reason.

    Actually, the way the salt is going here in the UP, I may wind up watching the road go underneath my feet in our rigs in another couple of years.

    Back to the '57, fortunately it belonged to a friend who taught me shifting on it, so I didn't have to deal with it much.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    That grille and headlight surrounds definintely indicate that as a '65 Chevy II, last year of that bodystyle (and my favorite of the '62-'65 years). If someone says it's a '62, they have absolutely, positively retrofitted the '65 front-end trim on it.

    Easy way to tell from the back, is the '65 is the only one of those years that has one square taillight next to one backup light on each side.


    I will go with your thinking on this and I do know the taillight configuration you're talking about. And it is great. I want one even more now.

    Anyone know Jay Leno's cell number?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,852
    Something tells me Jay no more has a '62-'65 Chevy II than a supercharged Studebaker Lark that I'd be looking for! ;)

    He's the guy for 1,000 horsepower '66 Toronados and Bugattis.
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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    Why don't you own a '55 or '57 Chev, man? They are awesome. I always remember everyone (OK, almost everyone!) always left out the '56 Chevy amongst their favorites, but I kinda like it. Not as much as the '55, which is my favorite. The '57 comes in 2nd for me.


    The '56 is my favorite of those three years. With the '55 I didn't like the too-small grille, and the turn signals gave it sort of a droopy, sad look. And the shape of the taillights and the way they jutted out seemed a bit old-fashioned. They actually remind me of the taillights on my Granddad's old '53 DeSoto...although on that old 1949-designed body, they made it seem a bit more modern.

    The '57 was, in my opinion, a bit too glittery in its attempt to become a baby Cadillac, and the style just seemed reactionary rather than revolutionary. To be fair, it was in its third model year, and had to face lower, sleeker, all-new designs from Ford and Plymouth...and the public WAS demanding more glittery cars. So, Chevy did the best with what they had.

    But IMO, the '56 seems the best of the bunch. I like its agressive, forward thrust that gives it a sporty look, and the styling in general just seems a bit more crisp and tough than the '55, which seemed a bit "softer". My only criticism of the '56 would be that the grille, while I do find it attractive, does have a Ford resemblance to it.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,852
    Of the three, I like the '55 best, followed by the '56 (which we had when I was little), and the '57, I don't really like at all. Kind of a turnoff for me is when you go to a car show and there are so many of those cars there, and at some cruise-ins I've gotten the attitude from those owners that no other car is worth collecting. That's why I like Studebakers although I have no family history of them...they are different and people at shows enjoy seeing something different too. Parts for later Studes (Larks) are way cheap compared to other old cars too, although that's not why I got into them.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,852
    In a way, so true. I remember Bob Lutz asking the beancounters a few years back that if today, they had $4000 "on the hood" of a new Impala, and by investing another $500 in better quality materials allowed them to take $2000 of the $4K "off the hood" would they not be making an extra $1500?

    The unasked question here is, would the Impala sell the same number of units with $2K on the hood as it did with $4K on the hood, and would 'better quality materials' really make themselves all that apparent to MOST owners or really make a noticeable quality difference down the road? Who could say.
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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would make a spot in my garage for any of the three 1955-57. Though my only interest would be the Nomads. With my neighbor having all 3 and a whole lot more, I can enjoy them without the expense and insurance. I also like just about any Woody that was ever built. We have several that show up at our local car shows all summer long.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    I'm also one of those rare birds that actually prefers the '58 Chevy to the '55-57. I thought Chevy did a really good job that year of taking a cheap car and making it look expensive, and even a bit exotic. My favorite of the low-priced three that year is still the Plymouth, which still seems sleeker and sportier to me. But, that baby Cadillac look I was complaining about with the '57 Chevy actually worked pretty well, IMO, on the '58.

    I'll also confess that I'm probably one of the few people who prefers the '58 Ford to the '57... :blush:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My dad swore by his Studie PU trucks. I owned 3 Studebaker cars. A 1952 4 door, 1953 Champion Coupe and a 1955 Commander hardtop. Of all the vehicles I have owned that would be the one I would like to have right now. Timeless styling. I agree about the shows. Our last one had over 100 cars in the park. My favorite was a 1951 Bullet nose Studebaker coupe in perfect condition. I can tell you the early 1950s V8 engines were very economical. my 1952 was always over 20 MPG. My Ford flathead V8s were mostly 10 mpg or less. I did not get interested in MPG until I took a job downtown San Diego and drove 22 miles each way. I drove that 1952 for a couple years.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I was very jealous of a guy in my High School when his folks bought him a new 1958 Impala. I was driving a 1946 Pontiac Convertible that I could never afford to replace the missing rag top. By 1962 I lost interest in on road cars and bought a 1956 Ford PU. Then got into 4X4s and VW buggies and never really looked back.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Isn't Mexico "North America"?

    Yup. All that article says is that once Nissan's plant in Brazil is up and running, South America won't have to rely on Mexico for supply. Hence capacity in Mexico will be utilized to supply North America.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The year I lived in Baja I learned very quickly they consider themselves Americans same as US. The hardcore types call themselves Latinos. We are all Americans from Tierra del Fuego to the end of the road in Deadhorse Alaska. And the VW Touareg TDI holds the record from one end to the other. What is made in America to break their record. Nothing would be my guess.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCbfGBPnGiI
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2012
    I was born in Brazil, so I'd like to see the US trade more with them.

    Brazil tends to get stuff from europe, though. TVs were PAL and not NTSC, for instance. They got the Corsa not the Cobalt. The Fords there were always European designs, too, Ka and Fiesta but no Taurus.

    Seems silly that they build American branded cars but they're european designs, and it's all built in (South) America.

    When North America formed NAFTA, they banded together to form Mercosul.

    They should work together, not form pacts to exclude each other.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Would Brazil ever give up their huge tariffs? We have pretty much opened ourselves up to every country we have an agreement with. Most have tariffs while we do not. I see adding tariffs as the only way for the USA to survive. Tariffs supported our government until about the 1920s. We took it off the back of imports and dumped it on the American workers. It was ok as long as we sold stuff the rest of the World wanted. Now what do we make besides military stuff that anyone wants. It sure isn't our cars.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    I'm convinced that somewhere along the line, the bean counters would have been happy to save 50 cents a car by eliminating lock washers when the cars were bolted together.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,852
    gagrice, nice to hear of you and your family's Studebaker ownership. I've read that early Stude V8's had camshaft problems, but I owned '63 and '64 Studebaker V8's and found the engines sturdy, although oil leaks were commonplace. Supposedly the Studie V8 was sturdy particularly in the lower end.

    Stude beat Chevy, Pontiac, and Packard by a few model years with an OHV V8. Although it wasn't high-horsepower, at least those first few years, I heard a colorful Stude engineer once at a meet in South Bend say 'we basically copied the Cadillac V8'.

    A '55 Commander coupe is a handsome car, for sure.
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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Even domestic cars have big tariffs there, excepting a few subcompacts with tiny engines.

    Import tariffs effectively double the price of a car.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If we had those big tariffs we would get all the vehicles built here in the USA. I just wish they would drop the price of Sugar, the Hummingbirds are bankrupting me with high priced sugar. :blush:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2012
    Brazil sent a lot of OJ here but Florida lobbied to add a 40% tariff IIRC. Then a carton of OJ went from 99 cents to about 4 bucks today. :sick:

    They started sending it to Europe instead.

    To make this car related, the Fittipaldi family owns orange groves in Brazil. Anyone remember his faux pas, gulping OJ instead of milk after winning the Indy 500?

    US and Brazil should work out some sort of reciprocal agreement and lower tariffs on different products, I think it could be mutually beneficial.

    Brazilians love American corn, strawberries, peaches, and apples. Just some of the things the US could export.

    Meanwhile they have more OJ and sugar cane than they know what to do with.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited November 2012
    Doesn't the US have a size able tariff against the importation off alcohol from Brazil, to protect the alcohol/gasohol industry here?

    Seems like it was 50 cents a gallon at one time.

    Edit: here's an updated article on that...

    http://riotimesonline.com/brazil-news/rio-business/us-opens-market-for-brazilian- -ethanol/#
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    US and Brazil should work out some sort of reciprocal agreement and lower tariffs on different products, I think it could be mutually beneficial.

    Hey, any country that was willing to keep producing the Dodge Dart through 1981 is A-OK in my book! ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wonder if the new Dart will be sold there. The name definitely carries a good reputation.

    They just stopped producing the VW Bus this year!
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    andre1969, what'd'ya think of the 2013 Dodge Dart, BTW? I pretty much have decided that I like it. They styled it well and the fake dual exhaust is nice, and it sits on an Alfa Romeo Giulietta chassis. So it must drive fairly well, if they watched the steering component manufacture well on it. Like ta test drive one, one day! :)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Doesn't the US have a size able tariff against the importation off alcohol from Brazil, to protect the alcohol/gasohol industry here?

    IIRC, that tariff was more to protect the sugar industry in the US which wanted to sell domestic sugar cane to the ethanol industry.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    The link I posted in 14958 didn't indicate that, at least as I read it...
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    I owned a '56 Chevy so I prefer them to the '55 and even the classic '57.
    I consider '58 a transition year and in 1959 things just got weird. My favorite was the '61 Impala bubble top. ( I had one and wish I still had it)

    The '56 Olds was a great looking car, and my favorite Ford was the '56.
    Those Crown Vics were great looking.

    Although the styling was getting over the top in 1959, I loved the split front end on that year Pontiac.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    So far I've only sat in a new Dart, but haven't driven one yet. Stylewise, I think it looks good for the most part, but to me it looks a bit awkward around the rear doors and C-pillar area, and the rear seems a bit stubby. I like the taillights though, and the front has a nice, aggressive look to it.

    It seemed pretty comfy up front for me. It was a bit tight in the rear, but then it's also a compact car, not a limousine. Compared to the Cruze, the Dart seemed bigger in the front seat, smaller in the rear. I'd consider one if I was in the market for a smaller car. But I still think I'd be more comfortable in something a bit bigger, like the Charger.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    1959 was a weird year in general, but I thought the Pontiac was, by far, the best looking car offered that year. If you got rid of those doubled-up tailfins and the compound wraparound windshield, I think it could've passed for a 1960's car.

    I think the '59 DeSoto and Mercury were good looking that year as well. They looked a bit out of date compared to a '59 Olds, which would've been their closest competition, but I never liked that front-end on the Olds, with the widely-spaced headlights.

    I agree on the '56 Olds. I think the '57 was really nice looking as well. It was all-new, but I guess didn't look different enough from the '56, so it wasn't a very hot seller.

    I always thought the '61 Pontiac was a really sharp looking car. But, I've read enough about the horrors of the "slim jim" transmission, that I guess if I want one, I should seek out a Bonneville or Star Chief, which still used the older, 4-speed HydraMatic? Olds went slim-jim all the way, but for some reason, Pontiac only used it in the Catalina and, starting in 1962, Grand Prix.
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