By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
I also don't understand this idea that '90's American cars were crap, my mother bought her first new car ever, a '92 Ford Escort. It NEVER gave her any problems except when the water pump went at 120k, and she still drove it home 100 miles with a broken water pump (impeller broke off the shaft) and it never overheated.
She had it fixed for less than $100 (try that with these imports where just the part costs $300 or more) and she kept driving it for years until trading it in @ over 160k.
Even the G8, which is a great car and an import at the end of the day is good but GM can do better. The Malibu and CTS are examples of great efforts of late.
For base transport, you really can not beat the imports from Asia, IMHO. How many Hyundai's are on the road again? Just saw a Suzuki SUV last night that looked like a Mercedes. Take that, Germany!
Regards,
Ow
I am still trying to get used to the suspension, its tight and smooth, but at first when going from an Accord, to a Pontiac, they share completely different ride styles, its almost as if your floating and you don't feel as much of the road as the Honda, which I guess is okay, but I love feeling the road, feeling like you can hug the road. I am getting used to the Pontiac ride, and learning to appreciate it!
The engine is not as refined as the Accord, but as I put more mile (1200miles) on it, it seems to be loosening up and getting more smooth, but I wish it had a 5spd automatic transmission, instead of the 4spd, Come on! its 2008! It certainly moves though!! Quite nicely! I have high expectations and I have been appreciating the Pontiac! The Interior fit and finish is quite good actually, with a bit of plastiky feel in places, but the dash, doors and seats have a good feel. Also, the 4cyl only comes with very nice, wheel covers, you simply cannot tell they are covers unless you pull on them a bit, but I guess that is okay, because if you rub a curb, then it is a much easier fix! They still look and pass as alloy looking wheels, so I guess that is okay.
Also, the seats are not as huggable to your body as the Accord, when going around curves, you tend to move a bit.
Excellent entertainment features, stereo with 6disc, XM, aux, Onstar, Moonroof, and not to mention a pretty sporty looking body style, I chose the Salsa red and it looks great! Had many comments on the looks of it! I am big on keeping it detailed! They only bummer is I am not going to get as much value for trade on this car like Honda. Some say, I am not going to be able to trade it in 2yrs like a Honda.
The Pontiac is a great car, and I think have come a long way, but even older models on the road are still doing fine, but I do have to agree that the body integrity is not up to par with Honda or other models. GM, is really stepping up though, they have to, because there is so much competition. I lease this G6, will I be able to make it for 3yrs with it, Yes, it'll be fun, Will be back to Honda/Acura, Of Course!! Why not branch out anyway and try many models, in the end you'll know what you really like, and what to stay away from.
My mother has 08 VW Jetta SE, and its awesome, I get to drive that as well, so I get to see both sides.
With this said, I am still a Honda/Acura fan, I will be back!! but sitting back and relaxing for now!
I think that is more of a desperate housewives phenomenon than a real life day to day one. My mother has said she definitely doesn't want a Camry because there are so many in the neighborhood already. I also don't see anything aspirational about a Toyota, or even a Lexus.
Lots of folks these days haven't ever even owned an American car, they just assume they're junk and go to the Toy dealer.
A lot of times this is based on the recommendation of a friend too.
I also don't understand this idea that '90's American cars were crap, my mother bought her first new car ever, a '92 Ford Escort.
I think it was more the 80s than the 90s, in the 90s they just didn't make anything desirable to the buyer.
I agree, luckily for Toyota a lot of people don't agree.
But why I don't buy American is this: its a commitment to exactly what is hampering America in the twenty first century.Namely, bad management. I recently learned that General Motors has not instituted JIT for its parts across all cars and brands. Just-In-Time ordering eliminated warehousing costs, and obsolescence costs, reducing costs without having to slash production workers salaries and ordering cheaper parts. GM has done this with most of its production, but not all.
Why so important? Japanese companies instituted JIT in the 1970s. Thirty years ago. Toyota alone has saved untold billions that has helped it lower costs of its cars for consumers and build more margin into their cars. There was one outage once that cost them nearly $2 billion due to a parts supplier fire. But that was once, in thirty years. They've more than made up for that one outage.
And there are numerous other little inefficiencies in American automakers management schemes. And in companies as big as the Big 3, all those little inefficiencies add up quick.
Whats more, American automakers have hopelessly broken design and management paradigms. Every non-luxury automaker has some cars designed by spreadsheets and not engineers, but look at GM: they are constantly just taking the same car, three years after the truck-bust, and just re-badging and re-badging. Bob Lutz (or Bob Moron, as I now affectionately call him) says that even so, interiors can be different and overrall lengths different. That doesn't change that interiors won't be that much different, usually just materials changes, and usually, its still pretty poor quality. As far as lengths, usually the wheelbase doesn't change, hence the car just becomes unstable or ungainly or un-(pick your adjective). My best example is the Saturn Outlook, err GMC Acadia, err Chevy Traverse, err Buick Enclave.
The interiors and exteriors DID change, in the case of the Enclave interior was, at first I though, much improved. And then I saw that the backs of the seats were still carpet. And that the leather was really, well, much the same as the leather in a Outlook. And that it rode exactly like the Outlook. And accelerated like the Outlook. And the wind noise was like the Outlook.
It was an Outlook. Re-badged.
Yet look at Toyota and its Lexus division. 6 years ago I remember complaints about how Toyota glass would fit right into the Lexus cars, so what did Toyota do? Today none of the sheet metal between the brand is the same. The underlying structure and components are different too. No one car (other than the Land Cruiser) shares more than 20% parts, and thats in the worst cases. The Lexus IS shares almost nothing with lower end Toyota parts.
And because of this, when someone buys a Lexus, it actually feels like a different car from its non-luxury cousin downmarket. Handling is better, ride is better, acceleration is better, almost everything is better. It feels like you actually bought something better than the cheaper product. Again with the IS: it has a 306 hp 3.5L V6. There is another 3.5L V6 in the Toyota Camry. But whats the Camry's power? 268 hp. And the IS never feels like it (and indeed did not) sacrifice any around town drive-ability to get that extra power, Toyota just went a more expensive route to make the engine and got a better result.
I know why General Motors does badge-engineering: profits. Luxury cars that take their parts and chassis from lower end cars have more margin in them than a Luxury car that was engineered by itself. But as it was once said, I'd rather have a luxury sports coupe underpinning my econo-car than an econo-car underpinng a luxury sports coupe. If GM is going to badge engineer, it shouldn't be from its lowest common denominator. Does this mean less profit per car? Yes. However, would it mean more sales if GM actually did this, sales that would push GM up into the profitable range rather than unprofitable.
The worst part about spread-sheet engineering is that it means executives get to design and build cars. These are people who, by the time they finally get to the top, are usually very old. 50+. Nothing wrong with being old, unless you are in a technologically competitive and design competitive industry. The thing about older individuals is that they tend to have their best ideas when they are young, and then fight for them and refine them over their lives. Look at Einstein, all his great work was done before he was 35, and then he spent the rest of his life fighting Neils-Bohr and the rest of the scientific community to keep his ideas around. Same with Stephen Hawking: he has spent the majority of his life not discovering new things about physics, but rather, just defending his theory about matter destruction. Later, when it was just blatantly obvious he was wrong, he turned it into Sci-Fi, claiming alternate universes exist (and his theory really doesn't hold up, if the matter still exists in other universes, doesn't that mean it was there when it was here in our universe, meaning out matter has disappeared and now there is less matter?).
The same applies to car executives. I was shocked to learn reading a GM High Tech Performance Magazine article that their lead engineer is in his fifties. His ideas for engines are all rooted in carburetors and lack of emissions standards. So far is best shots have been to just increase displacement to make power, where as everyone else is finding ways to make engines more thermally efficient, thereby making more power out of the same amounts of fuel and air (something not everyone knows: most of the power unleashed in an combustion chamber is lost has heat, most engines only harness about 40% of it)(foreign engineers have been trying to break the 50% mark, where as Americans are fine with 40%).
Don't get me wrong, senior management and engineers do have a role. A senior engineer might be able to look at a design and say "you know, your oil lines are going to be a problem" or "you put the brakes on backward." But that doesn't mean they have ideas and curiosity to build the next great engine. Thats why GM is still using the same basic engine in their LS engines as they
Regards,
OW
Can it actually be fixed? I'm starting to think it cannot - that American car companies will become more like HONDA as time goes by, becoming niche makers, with specialties that the imports don't address. If they're smart, they'll continue to build what Japan, Korea and China doesn't build, like the Chrysler 300, Ford Crown Victoria, but they need some mileage kings in that category. They need to continue to build Mustangs and......Vettes and the like. To continue to go head to head with the Asians is suicide, we can't any longer beat them at their game, that game is over, they won.
Ford now has the best initial quality in the industry, but that doesn't sell the current Taurus - it's just not good enough to drive you out of your Avalon in most cases. They need to come up with cars that are drop dead gorgeous, plus better in quality than the Asian cars. THEN, there may be a chance.
When the Germans, Japanese, Koreans and soon to be Chinese are all in the market, with potentially superior models to what Detroit is producing - how do we save the industry? Our model is indeed broken. IMO, Ford has the best chance of long term survival, only because Mulally is doing what has to be done to save them, ie: Selling Jaguar, Land Rover, Aston Martin, and potentially Volvo. Shame to lose Volvo, they make money and their technology is widely used by Ford, but you gotta do what you gotta do to save Ford, which may remain as a niche player in the future only. GM has GOT to shutter some brands, they are just too spread out to make it long term. Chrysler - it remains to be seen as to whether or not they stay in business - could go either way, but again, they'll be a small niche player, not a mass marketer. Toyota is the new GM for this century - and we'll see if they can survive Korea and China. I'm betting they don't.
That's probably a good assumption and/or advice to take. I wish I had taken the advice that all American cars were junk in 1994 when I bought my first car.
I'd advise the same to all based on that purchase. Your better off never owning domestic vehicles in my opinion, unless they match Hyundai's warranty and include free rental replacement and road side assistance too. Even with that, lots of hassle and wasted time is looming.
Have to disagree with this broad generalization - My experience, vast as it is, tells me otherwise. There are good AMerican cars, as well as some junk. You need to be alert and do your homework. For example, Ford builds great trucks generally, but their cars are not as good. Toyota builds great cars - their trucks, at least until lately, though reliable, have been very lightweight. Personally, I like a heavy, substantial truck. I have a GMC with 104,000 miles on it going strong, also though, a Lexus and two Mercury SUVs. I'm happy with all of them.
However, friends' Ford Escorts didn't fare much better.
The best cars my other teenage friends had as best first cars were definitely the one-two punch of a Nissan 200SX 5 speed and a 1994 Geo Prism (which was a Toyota Corolla with the cheap nameplate from Geo). Since Toyota built that car, we knew it would be bullet proof, and it was.
However, when my Dodge wasn't in the shop for repairs or on the tow truck for mobility, I was able to leave that Prism in the dust at stoplights (Teenagers!)
Where is the improvement? MAP Sensor 2005. Power Steering Pump 2006, A/C condenser 2007? Come on. These should last beyond five years. The truck has 58K miles and has been through $3,000 in repair. The MAP sensor took 4 visits and a Lemon Law filing for before they concentrated their efforts by linking up directly with GM in Detroit for correct diagnostics before they could isolate the stall condition to the MAP sensor. It took the dealer 5 attempts to correctly upgrade On-Star from Analog to Digital. I finally got a loaner on the last attempt for that one. When you live these issues, it's hard to just assume the next GM will be perfect."
Quote from lil: "It sounds more like the dealer network needs to change"
Maybe it is the dealer network that could/should be fixing the problems that plagues the cars...but I think you are leaving out a factor that is influencing people like circlew...
We started with Big 3 cars, and, most of us grew up with them, from the 50s into the 80s, 90s and to the present...many of us over 30-40 watched as Big 3 quality dropped like a rock (people complained in the 70s long before there was Honda or Toyota in their minds)...they simply compared the Big 3 car they had with the Big 3 car they had before, and they found the quality wanting...at that time, there was no thought of an import alternative, just complaining about their Big 3 car...
Then came the 80s, and by the mid-80s, 1985 to be exact, buyers, me in particular, thought it might be worth trying a Japanese import...I was one of those who remembered those cheap Sony radios that were pure junk that said on the back, "Made in Japan"...
Well, lo and behold, many of us found out that the Japanese improved their act, and suddenly, we were looking at a quality product that, quite frankly, put the quality of our Big 3 cars to shame...maybe not everybody, but a small but growing number of us began to see the Japanese cars as viable alternatives to Big 3 cars...PLUS, the dealer networks, selling a new product, were quite humble and certainly willing to try and fix anything that was wrong with them, whereas Big 3 dealers were as arrogant (ignorant?) then as they are now, displaying an "attitude" that the problem with the car vibrating was me, not something in the car...
Again, not everyone had this experience, but enough of us that Big 3 loyalists started to decrease and import loyalists started to grow...
For those who state their Buick, Olds, Galaxie, Charger, Impala was the best car they ever owned, and it was built in the 70s or 80s, I must tell you that while I value your opinions, your opinions have no value in this ongoing argument...HERE'S WHY...
It isn't you folks that are happy with your Big 3 cars that are fueling the growth of the imports...what no one wants to acknowledge is the EXPLODING number of buyers who feel cheated by the Big 3, changing their loyalties to the imports simply because THEY BELIEVE they are better cars...
So, for those of you who try and measure Big 3 quality, telling everyone how good your American car is, you cannot change the experience of someone who feels royally screwed by a Big 3 car that was junk...your arguments are invalid, your opinions are worthless, and your thought processes have zero logic...not because Bob says so, but because the person who is about to spend their money on a car has a 50-50 chance of avoiding a Big 3 car simply because of past horror stories that they had, or someone they know had, or an elder who abandoned Big 3 cars 20 years ago, saying they will never go back...
The Big 3 had us in their pockets for years, sold many of us (apparently not all of us) junk, and pushed us away with 1) poor union quality, 2) poor management, or 3) poor dealer service, or all three...
Once you are pushed away from something, it will usually take something extraordinary to bring you back...fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me...
So, for every story I read about someone lauding the superior quality of their Ford, GM, or Chrysler, I am sorry to say that your stories apparently have no value, because there seem to be 10 times more of you with a Big 3 horror story, and they are the people that you may never bring back to a Big 3 product...
And whoever made a comment about status, I really do not believe that someone will buy an Avalon because their neighbor did, solely for the status...just my opinion...aside from BMW and MB, there are very few cars, esp Japanese, that confer any status on the owner...the words that almost always jump out of the buyer of a Japanese car are "reliability and gas mileage"...
Even when Toyota screws up a car, or an engine with sludge, their overall reputation is hardly damaged, simply because if you owned a previous Toy or Honda, you probably have fond memories of great reliability or good gas mileage, or a well made car...the odds of your having that same opinion of an American car are remote...so, Toy gets the benefit of the doubt, and GM is walking on eggshells, because too many folks remember getting screwed, all of your 200,000 mile Buicks notwithstanding...
Don't believe what I say, I'm just an idiot...but buyers aren't buying Japanese cars by the boatload because they think they are junk...they believe they are buying quality, and there MUST be a real reason for it outside of advertising...it's because of their personal experience, and that experience with an American car probably ain't good, so GM will spend a lot of time making up for what buyers believe is years of junk that will not soon be forgotten...
So, when you write about your 25 year old Park Avenue (or other American car) that still runs, you are in a minority so small that, if you were an ethnic group, the US Census would probably not acknowledge you exist...
I have changed a lot of 22RE head gaskets.
The Big 3 had us in their pockets for years, sold many of us (apparently not all of us) junk, and pushed us away with 1) poor union quality, 2) poor management, or 3) poor dealer service, or all three...
Once you are pushed away from something, it will usually take something extraordinary to bring you back...fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me...
I have to say, I totally agree with this. I don't ever see Andre buying a domestic vehicle (although I find it funny he complains about an American car and bought an Audi), nor do I disagree with the views of others that have been scorned by a domestic manufacturer.
I also don't quite understand the doomsday attitude that people on this board have. Focuses are selling faster than Ford can make them. Someone is buying them. I hope to heaven they have a positive experience. The Mazda3 has been selling very well. The Fusion has proven to be a worthy in-class competitor, with similar performance characteristics to the competition. GM's mid-sizers with the 3.6 are doing fine, and offer a lot of performance for the dollar (and they sound great).
I don't think the Americans are "leaping ahead" of the Japanese yet, just catching up and being competitive. The interior fit and finish of the last Fusion I drove was an improvement over my '07 Accord, but some of the other things aren't there (I feel Honda makes the best manual FWD transmission and that has been the case since the early 80s).
Even with trucks, now that Toyota has taken the prize for who can have the stupidest commercials and people actually go back to talking about the product, the F150 and Silverado are both pretty overbuilt for their job. That is one of the reasons they can tow so much. Dodge offers an excellent value on the crew-cab models. I think the Nissan got off to a bad start with reliability, and like is brought up so many times in this forum, is hurting it.
I am not such a cheerleader for any one brand. With the exception of an 83 Reliant, I haven't had a bad experience with any car (that 2.6l Mitsubishi engine sucked, but the 2.0l that was in my '89 Gallant and 3.0l that was in the family's '89 Grand Voyager was fantastic). My biggest complaint is no one makes anything that is actually fun to drive anymore in a reasonable price range. I really miss my Contour.
It isn't doomsday that I am preaching...the Big 3 still have a 50% market share, and only now has it dropped that low...it has been higher for all time, esp in the junkie 70s and 80s, when they were the only one you could buy...
And I do NOT want to see them go down into bankruptcy...this is just a running comment that basically states that many Americans felt cheated and abused, not once, but for decades, and they have migrated to a source of product that they believe, and their experience confirms, are better products...
For those who write about their Buick that is 20 years old, 300K miles and runs like new, they are a blessed minority...and, they MUST be aware that many of their neighbors and friends have not had an experience like theirs, and while their experience with the indestructible Buick may lead them to buy Buicks forever, my point is simple...their experience seems to be as unique as those who have experienced a near death experience...very few...and they truly do not speak for a growing minority (almost a majority) of buyers who are, and will continue to, abandon Big 3 products because of past experience with junk or their perceived lack of quality as compared to their Toy/Hon...
Chevy may make 10 cars that get 30 mpg, and the Focus and Fusion, and Malibu and Impala may be great cars, but it may be too little too late...where were these cars in the last 20 years???...why are they JUST NOW making cars of (supposed) good quality, when the competetion has built that rep for 25-plus years???
Just because the Malibu may have tolerances like the Accord is no reason, for one who has been burned and screwed by Big 3 cars, to suddenly jump back...it will take YEARS of superior quality to bring back many buyers who have said "American cars???...never again in my lifetime"...
It is simple...they squandered our goodwill over 30 years of crap, and have to work 10 times as hard to bring us back, because what used to be a $10K piece of junk may turn out to be a $30-40K piece of junk, something that no one wants to be stuck with...whether they succeed will depend on many factors, and I must say that recent union strikes will not help them, at all...
But here is the thing, if they have sworn off the whole possibility of every purchasing a vehicle designed by a domestic manufacturer in their lifetime, they aren't going to be a customer and aren't in the market anymore. I think there is a limit to the lengths that manufacturers will go to sway the opinion of baby-boomers.
It is simple...they squandered our goodwill over 30 years of crap, and have to work 10 times as hard to bring us back, because what used to be a $10K piece of junk may turn out to be a $30-40K piece of junk, something that no one wants to be stuck with...
I agree, I think the domestics lost a generation. I think that is sad because now they are going to have to wait for the gen x-y group to make it to a point in their lives where they have discretionary income. In my case, that is some time off. OTOH, baby boomers, which are hitting their career peaks and earning potential and their kids are out of college, but there is a limited number of vehicles they have left to buy.
Like I said, Foci are selling well. We will see what happens with the Hyundai partnership with Microsoft.
GPFs, security vulnerabilities, and service packs, what else? :shades:
Will we reach the point where the car just dies so you turn it off and turn it back on and everything is fine?
CTRL
ALT
DEL
We already have that. It is called the Prius :sick:
I still say that the crappy 3.8 V-6 and A4OD transmissions are what really killed Ford in the marketplace. The vehicles that featured those drivetrains were initially popular, but so many people were burned, that they swore never to buy a Ford again.
The Focus sells well for two reasons - it is being carried by market trends, and it has Synch. Our 2005 Focus SE is serving us well (62,000 miles - no major problems) but even with Synch we feel no compelling urge to trade on a new one. We'll wait until the next-generation model debuts.
We have a 2003 Accord EX sedan...can't say that the new Fusion is an improvement over that car.
The Fusion dashboard is very simple (moreso than either the 2003-07 Accord or the 2008 Accord) - which makes it easier to assemble correctly. I give Ford credit for that. It does look nice, but the Accord's dash is a more complex design, and Honda matched the Ford's assembly quality.
Where the Fusion falls down is in the upholstery. The seat cushions have an embossed pattern, and if this pattern is not straight for the entire length of the cushion, it makes the seat cushion look "crooked."
I looked at several Fusions with cloth seats yesterday, and the upholstery pattern looked crooked. It detracts from an otherwise nice interior. Honda wisely choose a seat pattern and construction method that avoids this possibility.
Bottom line is that, because of the cloth seats, the Fusion interior still looks like Ford needs to sweat a few details to be top-notch for the class. And this is from someone who prefers the exterior styling of the Fusion to the Accord (let alone the Camry).
Yeah, and I'm one of them.
Ford gave me the nasty combination of bad product and atrocious customer service. I would have to hear some evidence that both have changed to consider them again.
Maybe the Big3 should just throw in the towel and name their final model "Divine Wind"????
BC/BS raised my health insurance again, maybe Japan is into writing policies???
Folks like fezo are more common than the "buy American at any cost" folks like rocky want to admit...some of them just switched from, say, Ford to GM, but a LARGE portion switched from Big 3 to Hon/Toy because they were treated better at the dealer, or were impressed with the quality of the car...many of those will NEVER come back, because they still believe, 20-30 years later, that Big 3 cars are junk, or, if not junk, are now up to the level of quality of the Japanese in the 90s, but the Japanese have been improving their cars daily...
It is amusing that when you point out Big 3 cars with exceptional quality, you can only mention just one or two in each carmaker, whereas most of the Hon/Toy cars are quality thru-out the lineup...yeah, some folks have been burned by lemon Japanese cars, but their overall rep for quality far exceeds the Big 3, and will continue to do so for a good many years...whether junk quality union workmanship or rotten management, the folks have, for many, deserted the Big 3, and I do not think they will come running back if the CEO changes...it is the lineworker that must make a better car, and many of us question that possibility with the UAW running the labor pool...
Bob, how many people talk about their 20 year old Camrys???
All I hear about is how great they RAN, not RUN.
But we do have long memories - I've been carrying an irrational grudge over Volvos since 1974 or so. :P
So what you are saying is those customers are gone. No second chance on Windstar owners, Citation owners, Vega owners, etc. Bubye, zip, ziltch, vaporware, 86'd, out to pasture, whatever. Now with those customers off the list, something better than 1 in every 4 vehicles is a Ford, 2 in every 5 is a GM (I forget the exact ratio, but something along those lines), so how much effort is it to win those customers back vs getting new customers? Gen X & Y seem to be happier without the baggage of what car they get. I think the "old school image" is less of an issue for them and they are more into specifications and features.
I think things like moving mountains and parting oceans don't happen often, so if that is what it takes to appease some consumers, the domestics must find away to carry on bravely without that group. I think most of America loves an underdog and a good comeback story. I don't think it is going to be all that bad.
To tell you the truth I have bought imports for better than three decades. The Windstall was an exception and both the van and the service were abysmal. That said I did no better when I had a VW Rabbit which was also a great combination of poor work and obnoxious service.
I haven't had many domestics more because I just find I like imports better and have since the days that we import buyers were considered eccentric rather than unpatriotic.
My last domestic was a Chrysler Sebring convertible and it was fine and when I has a service issue, which was a minor one, they went way beyond what I expected. I was impressed but also realize it's another corporation than it was then.
I'll still look at a domestic if they have something that entices me. I see the beginnings of that happening. We'll see.
BTW, most of my imports were built here while my Ford was from Canada and my Chrysler was from Mexico.
I think a simple design executed well is better than a complex design that looks shoddy. I am going to take the car in and see if they can warranty the dash given all the comments that mine must just suck. I am sure Honda will be embarrassed by their faux pas and take care of it lickidy split.
Where the Fusion falls down is in the upholstery. The seat cushions have an embossed pattern, and if this pattern is not straight for the entire length of the cushion, it makes the seat cushion look "crooked."
I looked at several Fusions with cloth seats yesterday, and the upholstery pattern looked crooked. It detracts from an otherwise nice interior. Honda wisely choose a seat pattern and construction method that avoids this possibility.
You know, after you said that, I was thinking about it, and I have never been in a Fusion with cloth seats, except for one as a rental right when they came out (and it looked fine to me). Now i have to go stare at some cloth seats. I think that would be a very valid point though, and exactly the kind of thing I think the domestics struggle with. The door handle on my Accord feels fantastic, when I pull on it I feel like it is a quality piece and makes the whole car feel solid. The one on the Chrysler felt like it would come off in my hand.
My grudge is older than your grudge. Mine is against Toyota since 1964
It took the 2007 Sequoia and $5000 under Invoice to change my view of Toyota. After 43 years Toyota got their engines right. Now their electronics suck. Other than that I like the SUV.
I thought I've explained myself well here, but let me do it one more time. I remember my parents' '87 Jetta well. It was a fine automobile that had it's fair share of problems, mostly with electronics and the clutch, but those were limited to the 70 to 100K mile area. Also, it reached 100K, but it did require several expensive repairs, but at least it worked fine for most of the time. It was solidly built and drove well. Audi has shown constant and steady improvement in reliability according to CR for the last 5 years or so, and most of their vehicles are now recommendable. The Audi is built in Germany, not Mexico. The Audi has been extrememly close to flawless in 38,888 miles thus far.
My biggest complaint is no one makes anything that is actually fun to drive anymore in a reasonable price range. I really miss my Contour.
What's a reasonable price range? I'd recommend the A3, the GTI, and the Civic SI as fun to drive automobiles obtainable in the $20K to 27K range. VW has a good warranty to help offset their poor reliability.
[raises hand]
For those of us who were saddled with a domestic POS at one time or another, the question becomes, "what sort of reward do the domestics offer in return for taking on the risk of owning their product again?"
Better mileage? No.
Better reliability? No.
Better handling? No.
Better performance? No.
Better packaging? No.
Everything they do offer I can also obtain somewhere else, with less risk of being buried in a hunk of junk again.
You are right, I forgot about the Civic SI. I suppose the MazdaSpeed3 should be in there as well. I think I am just bitter they dropped the MazdaSpeed6 (which I should have bought instead of the Accord) and I don't care for anything about the new Subaru Impreza WRX, the prior edition I also should have purchased instead of the Accord. Of course, all of these vehicles are several thousand more than the sub-20k Accord EX.
I am also not willing to depend on a warranty to offset faulty engineering. The same way you were annoyed by failing paint and head gaskets on a 12,000 car, people in my life were annoyed with Bose amplifier "thermal events" on $40,000 Audi S6s. Its not that I don't love European cars, I miss the E36 M3 that was in my life, but I wouldn't use "reliable" and European in the same sentence. It doesn't dissuade me, it is a part of the ownership experience you either except or not.
For those of us who were saddled with a domestic POS at one time or another, the question becomes, "what sort of reward do the domestics offer in return for taking on the risk of owning their product again?"
Better mileage? No.
Better reliability? No.
Better handling? No.
Better performance? No.
Better packaging? No.
Everything they do offer I can also obtain somewhere else, with less risk of being buried in a hunk of junk again.
Further, the existence of those few Big 3 cars still running after 25 years did not stop the masses from catapaulting Toy and Hion to their current respective places...
I respectfully suggest that those old cars actually prove nothing, except that just like a blind pig can stumble on an acorn, GM and Ford sometimes built a cream puff, probably on one of those rare days when everyone on the UAW assembly line was sober... :P
For those who are old enough, the old saw used to be in the 70s and 80s, don't ever get your car built on a Monday or Friday, as Friday they were drunk on payday, and Monday they were hungover from the weekend...the "they" referred to the UAW lineworkers, not management...this was long before they had Japanese competition to deal with, but Americans knew back then that the union was hardly the symbol of quality that they try and tell us they are...
They had a rep for drunkenness back then, when we had nowhere else to go, so it isn't just me with the chip on my shoulder...if the Japanese had been here in the 70s, the UAW would now be down to three members, and one never-say-die cheerleader, the one and only rocky... :P
Better mileage? No.
Better reliability? No.
Better handling? No.
Better performance? No.
Better packaging? No.
Everything they do offer I can also obtain somewhere else, with less risk of being buried in a hunk of junk again.
I don't know, the Fusion seems to compare favorably to the Camry. It is within an MPG, CU rates the reliability even, the tires are better, it has more horsepower, and has more cargo space. Oh and its cheaper. If you look to the Malibu with the V6, then you get a different level of vehicle.
But perception is another matter, and like I said, at this point, I think conquest customers and new customers are easier and more lucrative than embittered scorned lovers.
It seems like a lot of current owners are happy with their purchases. It is very sad but it just might be time to write off those that came before.
From there I got a VW Scirocco that was wonderful, then an Audi 4000 4M and an Audi GT Coupe that were both wonderful as well (even though the second gear synchro failed at 2,000 miles in the GT Coupe and was repaired under warranty).
After starting my business I could no longer afford German iron (at least not initially) so back to the domestics I went. My business partner and I bought nine American cars (all Dodge and Chrysler models), and every one of them saw the far side of 100,000 miles before they were traded. Since we started the business I've also thrown in a Mazda, another VW, and two BMWs, and in all of my years of car ownership, the only car that was ever problematic was the Mazda, go figure.
Currently between my business partner and my wife and I, we have two Dodge Grand Caravans and an Intrepid, all three have six figures showing on the clock with one of them showing about 160,000 miles, and all three of them run perfectly. In fact, both of the DGCs are still capable of sub ten second sprints to sixty (barely), still get reasonable mileage (typically about 24 on the highway), and are still using only a quart of oil every ~7,000 miles.
So, given how well American cars have worked out for me, will my next car be from one of the Big 3? Ummm, probably not. Why? Simple, I'm a stick-shift bigot, and finding a domestic sedan with good performance and a stick is virtually impossible these days. :-( That said, I'm bidding on a contract that, if I get it, will see me driving some 3,000 miles a month, and assuming that happens, my short list will look like this:
1) VW Rabbit 2.5 5-Speed
2) Chevy Cobalt Sedan Sport 5-Speed
FWIW, the single largest reason that the Rabbit is on top of the Cobalt is that with the Rabbit, I can schlep our 75 pound Lab "Puppy" around without having to stick him in the back seat.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Regards:
Oldengineer
I'm right in the middle of Generation X and Y, and let me tell you, it doesn't matter how good the specifications or features are if the car doesn't run. You might be able to fool a teenager, but once that teenager has to go without vehicle many times due to "down time" and "shop time" and has to pay some of the bills after warranty (remembering all the hassles and wasted time and gas during the warranty), they'll soon realize specifications don't matter as much as reliability and dependability.
I chose the Dodge Neon Sport (fully loaded model) over a Base Civic DX stripper (near the same price range of 12K) based on better specifications and features. I thought I was getting "more bang for the buck" by buying American, afterall, the Japanese cars have to cross a huge ocean just to get here for goodness sakes!
Boy, was I wrong. I couldn't have been more wrong. The Civic would have paid for itself over a few years of better gas mileage. The Civic would not have cost thousands and thousands of dollars from contant repairs and tow truck fees. The Civic would have been worth a substantial amount at 65,000 miles, while the Dodge was worthless to all but the foolish. Resale Value was the final blow. The domestics still need to work on that. I think the poor resale value is directly correleated to lack of longevity in quality, and also due to pricing that is about 20% off of where it should be.
It could be a good business decision for the BIG 3 to write-off burned previous customers, though I think they already did that plain and clearly when they decided to make junk in the first place. I don't think it's any "SURPRISE" that people hate the big 3 to the BIG 3. I'm pretty sure they knew they were writing off their companies futures for current pay (that current time being 20 years ago) and bonuses. I can see a 55 year old thinking in 1990, hey, I won't have to deal with the repercussions, let's trick them and make money now rather than later.
However, I think in some small part, Chrysler's failings in selling me a POS led to me becoming a car fanatic.
I took pleasure in spending 25K on a brand new Honda Accord V6 Coupe (out the door) and then more pleasure in spending 30K on a brand new Audi A3 out the door. I was thinking, see, the BIG 3 did really lose something valuable, thats 55K they didn't get to put into their revenue thanks to a lemon of a 15K car (out the door cost). Hopefully, for my next car I'll be able to afford following my increments upward and get something around 35K out the door.
The BIG 3 should have known that an entry level car that proves a complete failure, although only an under 15K purchase, negates any chance of earning future larger purchases, such as 25K or 30K, or even 40K in my future I hope.
The revenge is sweetest when I buy a nice new foreign car, and not only that, when it lives up to my perceived superior quality, just as predicted, time and time again.
So I don't know that they can just "blow off" customers like me. Companies should be able to grow with me and alongside me as my career blossoms, so should the car companies.
If I follow the pattern of my late 20's and get a new car every 50 months and increase the purchase price 5K each time, that's a whole lot of money to be made if I live to 80.
1) VW Rabbit 2.5 5-Speed
2) Chevy Cobalt Sedan Sport 5-Speed
I take that to mean you're not including even the Focus, much less Civic, Versa, Elantra, Corolla, or Lancer? Or even the Nitro? (I don't like it much, but it's definitely a high-utility vehicle for the size). Why only these two vehicles? Focus, Elantra, and Nitro I'm pretty sure are available with a stick as well (not sure about the others) and Elantra will release a hatch version for 2009 with a rather sweet sport manual shifter.
Here's mine: Corvette.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Our good friends purchased a Chrysler minivan in February and the tranny blew at 500 miles. They demanded a new one and got it. They are pleased so far.
I was in a van pool for 9 years and went from a Ford passenger van (engine blew at 80K just after DT warranty was up!!) and then two DGC that went for over 150K. The first had a bad tranny. The second one was very reliable.
As one of the pioneers of the MV, Chrysler got that one right, IMO. I also know people that had great service with their Intrepids and 300M.
Regards,
OW