maybe you should move there since you obviously have no interest supporting our economy.
I don't think that is how you win customers or friends.
I think you use data, like Ford vehicles that are as high or better quality than Japanese counterparts. I think you talk about the quality of the vehicles and the innovations that they incorporate.
People are going to buy what they want. You have to make people want your cars.
I have owned 3 GM trucks over the past 30 years, a couple Ford SUV and cars and a Toyota/GM/Honda sedan in there . I see everyone debating doing the 'right' thing by buying America but I have to question giving loyalty (and business) to a company that is not doing 'right' for its customers. My most recent GM truck is a 2002 Silverado. After year 4 odd items started happening that I had never seen from any manufacture of quality trucks. These items include: 1) broken tailgate cables (ultimately recalled), poor coating and steel that ultimately rusted out. 2) broken tailgate lift mechanism - plastic (no longer metal) clip broke, to replace the clip the plastic bezel had to be removed and replaced also. Talking to the dealer and vendors on the web - common malfunction. Considering my truck is not a work truck and the liftgate is used infrequently - shoddy design. 3) Parking brakes, having used the parking brake maybe 10-12 times over 5 years the brake would no longer hold. After inspecting the parking brake - the bottom of shoe wore out and ruined the drum. Talking to the dealer and a couple of brake shops there was a poor quality clip used GM used on the shoes that caused the problem. GM refused to recall the issue (too prevalent) even though it could be a safety issue. 4) Separation of steering column shroud and tearing of the shifter boot. According to the dealer -- the plastic latching may 'occassionally' separate and cause this problem. 5) Separation of the fog light lenses from the housing. After less than 8 years I had one fog light lens fall off while driving. Less than a month later the other one fell off. In discussions with the dealer it was determined that the adhesive used has a short life span. Obviously <8 years, GM had gotten away from the retaining clips a few years back because they had problems with them. I've never had parts just 'falling' off a vehicle on any vehicle I have ever owned.
I understand wear parts and maintenence parts failing and needing replaced over the life of a vehicle. These items do not meet that criteria. Recently I have gotten more vocal with GM - what else is going to fall off when driving because of poor material selection? So approximately $500 of repairs later I am extremely concerned about the quality of the vehicle and what unplanned item will fail next. I have to admit that in 2011 when I replace this truck I most likely look to Ford first,Toyota 2nd (made in San Antonio) and just drive by the GM lots. Their response to this type of poor quality speaks volume about them as an organization.
If a company wants loyal customers they should at the relationship from both ways. Why would I want to give $35K or $40K to a company and have $500-$2000 of hidden defect in the product.
i work at a supplier that makes seals and gaskets for many different companies and esp domestics...our parts seem to end up all over world...we have a huge trade deficit so i hope people if they care about our countrys future will buy cars assembled here with a high north america parts content
These kinds of things are irritating, but I think we've gotten spoiled. Can anyone remember back in, say, '79 complaining about how their '71 truck wasn't holding up so they wouldn't buy the same brand again? Your truck is now eight model years old. I know though, I'm not the one with the repair bills!
You could have bought a Toyota back then, and worried about engine sludge, tailgates falling off, or worse yet, the truck breaking in half due to frame rust. So it is all relative.
I hope that even if you don't consider a GM product, you'll look hard and long at a Ford over any other foreign manufacturer (no matter where the parts are put together). Look at Consumer Reports about Nissan trucks...surely nothing to write home about, although for some reason their reputation seems intact.
Bill P.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Bill P -I don't think it is an issue of getting spoiled but rather my personal feeling that there are items on a vehicle that should not fail due to normal day to day wear . Of course there are wear parts - brakes, tires, suspension items, belts etc are all normal wear part, these items are identified in the maintenance of the vehicle. The items I was referring to are items that should last as long as the body of the vehicle. What other time bombs (financial and safety) are being designed into GM Vehicles?
Someone made a decision to change from the proven metal clip on the tailgate to a plastic clip and a one shot bezel. This design change to save the cost of the vehicle 32 cents cost me $40 + time. I can walk through a salvage yard and most vehicles that are intact have the original fog lenses. GM decided to go with an adhesive that fails in 7 years -- cost $200 plus time. So when I look at my true cost of ownership of a GM vehicle should add an extra 500-2000 because of these poor designs. For a few years I had a impala company car. It could not cool down the compartment of the vehicle. I took it to the dealer and after they tested it they stated it was working as designed. Able to cool 20 degrees to the outside. So when it was 100 outside the inside of the car would at best be 80. Works for Canada not for Texas. Extremely under designed. The vehicle also did not use a last set on air recirculation. It always failed to outside (as it was designed to). This might work in cooler states but not in Texas. When talking to GM this is the way it was designed. So every time you got in the vehicle you had to set it to recirc. This could be 10 or 15 times in a single day. Although the older a/c interface on my truck utilizes a last set condition...
My issue is that GM continues to 'add more features' but doesn't fix the core quality on the vehicle. GM continues to make poor quality design/engineering decisions. If GM does not care about providing a reliable/quality vehicle why should anyone buy their product. I already subsidize their organization with my tax dollars (both locally and federally), why should I also buy their products with expected costs of poor designs/quality impacting me for an additional 10-20% of the vehicle cost.
GM is one of the largest players in China, India and Europe. If they want to have protectionism in the US they should provide the US consumer with quality products. My strong suggestion to GM is go to quit treating the American buyer like a ATM machine and actually provide long term value.
I had an 08 Honda Accord that I bought new and did not shop any other brand when I bought it. Well after numerous problems I found this site and discovered that the 08 Accords also had a rear brake problem. I told my wife (her Accord) that if she noticed anything funny about the brakes to let me know and she said that they did make noise sometimes. I took the car to the dealer for an oil change at 19,000 miles and asked them to check the brakes because they were making noise and they said that they were fine. The next oil change around 23,000 miles the told me the rear brakes were shot, the front had 80% pad left but the rears were shot. I told them that they were going to pay half (people on this site told me that Honda paid for 1/2 of theirs) and the dealer told me that only Accords with less than 20,000 miles is Honda willing to pay 1/2 anything over 20,000 miles and it is considered NORMAL maintenance. I told them that I would never buy Honda again and started shopping the next day. I test drove the Ford Fusion and could not believe the difference, no road noise?Smooth ride? more power, way more options for the money, Road side assistance, hell the car will call 911 when the airbags are deployed and there is no monthly fee. Ford has been building fusions for 5 years now and I can not find any real problems with this model which is amazing since both the Accord and Camry has had nothing but problems since updating their model to the current version. The Fusion has really impressed me and we have had no issue's so far.
News reported that Toyota employs a Grand Total of 30,000 in the US. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow Wow.
Anderson, Indiana lost 31,000 GM jobs since 1981.
So are you saying the US is better off by supporting inefficient manufacturers who create lots of jobs at high cost even if the work could be done by far fewer workers? Is that the way to a strong economy?
I know right! these anti-japanese people act like the 25-30k US employees that each Japanese and Korean manufacturer uses are practically meaningless and doesn't really contribute anything to our economy compared to the amount employed by GM, Ford, or Chrysler! I think those hard working American production workers in the Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and Hyundai plants would strongly disagree with those people!!!
they might not equal the number of people employed by GM, Ford, or Chrysler but no matter how anti-japanese people spin it, they still make a meaningful contribution to your economy and provide ten's of thousands of jobs for Americans!
What? Don't you know it takes 500,000 UAW workers to make second-rate cars?
It took Bankruptcy for GM, Ford and Chrysler for the reality to set in. In Ford's case, they mortgaged everything to squeak by without C-11 but GM was in denial until the end. Chrysler was Dead Men Walking years ago...
Now we see similar forces at work at Toyota but I'll wager they take much more drastic action to save their brand than GM even could dream about.
Just because it's an American company doesn't mean we have to blindly support disgraceful decisions and third-rate products. Yeah, they made some decent trucks but the business model died long before June 1, 2009....R.I.P.
unfortunately, the laws on car recalls needs to change; I just heard on the news last night that there are no laws currently that state that if any auto manufacturer issues a recall, they are under no legal obligation to inform the consumer/customer of those affected car models so basically the auto manufactures will allow customers to drive around in unsafe and potentially defective cars
GM, Ford, and Chrysler certainly allowed this to happen as with the almost 30 some years I was with GM I very rarely was ever notified by GM of a recall on my vehicle; luckily I was car savy and read up on stuff and even if I brought the recall notice into the dealership they still gave me a run around of fixing my car!! or pretended they knew nothing of about the recall!!
now Toyota is guilty of doing the same thing with their accelerator and brake issues!!
I know that, the Senators from CT, NY, and NJ are going to work together to try and get the laws changed so that their is much more consumer and customer protection from auto manufactures in regards to recalls so that they are legally obligated to inform customers of potential defects in their vehicles that should be fixed!!! hopefully they can make it happen!!!
they might not equal the number of people employed by GM, Ford, or Chrysler but no matter how anti-japanese people spin it, they still make a meaningful contribution to your economy and provide ten's of thousands of jobs for Americans!
the problem is that the 10s of thousands employed by companies like GM are a FAILED BUSINESS MODEL. Those are not long lasting or valuable jobs to the economy.. .they are more like welfare jobs.
To have a truly strong economy you need to make products that are of high value. The fact that foreign nameplates can make cars in this country at reasonable cost with high quality and desirability supports and strengthens the US economy. Beyond the direct manufacturing jobs, you have thousands of other jobs....
Need to fix the plant electrical...call a local electrician. Need to cater that plant lunch?.... go to a local caterer. Need to transport those US assembled cars to dealers?... Hire a local trucking company, a US railroad. Need to advertise those foreign-nameplate cars?... hire a US based advertising agency, hire US cameramen, videographers, production assistants, etc. Need to recycle the waste from the foreign-namplate plant in the US?... hire a US recycler Etc.
There are a lot of US jobs supported by manufacturing in the US. To only count the manufacturing staff *in the plant* is like seeing an iceberg based upon what is above the water line.
Have you driven a Cobalt, and if yes, when? I bought a new '08 XFE 4-door with ABS, side moldings, floor mats (hey, they don't even get stuck under the gas even with mats on top!), and A/C and satellite radio (both standard). I paid $11,900 BEFORE my $2,000 in GM card earnings. Now with 30K miles, I still couldn't be happier. Peppy, great mileage, and to my eyes, better looking than some other econoboxes. It's all about perception, unfortunately. The car was built 30 miles from me with 80% NA parts content. 37 honest highway MPG. Unfortunately I can't remember the source, but I remember reading a review of an XFE where the guy (pro-Japanese) had to honestly admit that if he was blindfolded, he would have thought he was shifting in a mid-priced VW...a compliment.
Of course, we know how perception is.
Bill P.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
"Same with my $45K 2003 Yukon Denali. Over $4K in repairs"
7 to 8 year old SUV and you are crying about $4K in repairs? Oh yea if you would of bought a Toyota it would still be running on the original tires right? How about the $25,000 Toyota trucks that the frames rusted in half after 7 years or the Toyota Oil sludge problems that ate your engine at 80,000 miles? You boys can cry over $4000.00 and go and get you a Toyota because I heard there selling real cheap now
Well, $3K was BEFORE 40K miles and 4 years. Power Steering Pump, A/C compressor, and the MAP sensor (which took 4 visits and invocation of Lemon Law filing for them to fix it on the last trip!). The water pump lasted until around 60K and has been squealing for over a year until fixed last October. Included is a air bag sensor which cost $550 to replace.
Falling apart since new, this is HARDLY top-shelf product. AFAIC, my truck is third-rate junk and over priced.
There is one big reason GM went bankrupt and it wasn't because they were competent and the products were the ones to beat. They have been failing all along for decades. Now the new GM has religion and a lot of taxpayer dollars. Feeling good about that? :confuse:
Bill, You will not get any response. Most people on this site live by perception and perceive that you just told at least 10 lies.
When the last Honda NA worker is replaced by a robot Utopia will be acheived. We wouldn't want to bite the hand that feeds us so we will all just love it. They just moved in next door so I am now flanked by 2 Accords, an Odyssey and a Camry. A daily reminder of the unemployment rate.
The Regal is no longer in production. Korea is for the CHINESE built Regal (do a little more homework) The NEW Regal will be built in Germany until the CAW plant is ready in Oshawa, Ontario next year (in case you didn't know, Canadians buy alot of AMERICAN cars, Mexicans don't)
BTW, the redesigned 2011 Aveo will be built in Orion, Mi., not Korea.
Well, $3K was BEFORE 40K miles and 4 years. Power Steering Pump, A/C compressor, and the MAP sensor (which took 4 visits and invocation of Lemon Law filing for them to fix it on the last trip!). The water pump lasted until around 60K and has been squealing for over a year until fixed last October. Included is a air bag sensor which cost $550 to replace.
And those are unexpected repairs not normal maintenance and repair of wearable items such as brakes, fluids, battery, etc. No one in their right mind would expect unexpected repairs of that magnitude.
first off we were both wrong when it came to the LaCrosse, I was right, it was made in Oshawa but apparently sometime in the middle of last year, GM shift production from Oshawa to the FairFax plant because there website doesn't list the LaCrosse for production there until May of 2009 (by the way do a little hw next time )
take a chill pill man, just because I pointed out that several American cars aren't made here it is hard to make sure these assembly sites are accurate because GM has a bad habit of changing production sites often, sometimes without any advanced notice!
BTW, I wasn't talking about 2011 models with the Aveo and I just checked on GM production chart for the last two months, the Aveo was assembled in Mexico!
next time, pay a little bit more attention to what people are posting before responding, do your hw and don't be no angry that someone posted something you don't like to read or your don't agree with :shades:
here is a great link from GM's own website for current production of their vehicles and where they are assembled:
"....Need to fix the plant electrical...call a local electrician. Need to cater that plant lunch?.... go to a local caterer. Need to transport those US assembled cars to dealers?... Hire a local trucking company, a US railroad. Need to advertise those foreign-nameplate cars?... hire a US based advertising agency, hire US cameramen, videographers, production assistants, etc."
So the American car companies don't hire any of these same people?? I guess the food just "magically appears" at a GM plant luncheon. Ford must beam their F150's to the dealer like on Star Trek. NBC must just hook up some machine to Bob Lutz, and VOILA!!!! A commercial appears During Law and Order
Nice car, and glad you bought as I do, only purchase cars assembled in the USofA with a majority of USofA made parts. A 2010 Cobalt XFE is priced here on Edmunds at $12224 with incentives, so $11900 new in 2008 isn't such a fantastic deal even without knowing what the incentives were back then. And unless the entire details on the transaction are posted, I tend to snicker at those that post how much of a fantastic deal they got as there are so many other ways for a dealer to make money, trade-in, financing, ext. warranties, etc, etc. Glad you love the car though.
"......first off we were both wrong when it came to the LaCrosse, I was right, it was made in Oshawa......"
No, I said the CURRENT 2010 LaCrosse. I know the old W body Lacrosse was made in Oshawa, as was the Regal prior to it (you do realize that the SAME LaCrosse was sold in Canada as well, as the Allure??). The CURRENT LaCrosse is built along side the Malibu in Fairfax Ks.
your playing around with semantics now with "current" models and different model years and the whole point I was trying to make is GM has a considerable amount of their products assembled in other countries!
I think you just proved my point by stating that our Regal is going to be built in Canada! just another example of a GM product made in a other country, and their is nothing wrong with that, I was just pointing out to japanese haters that GM has a huge foreign component in their company for parts and assembly of their vehicles!
GM has markets in Canada, Europe, and China and last time I checked, a Regal assembled in Korea for use in China is still a GM product that is assembled overseas; again, your playing with semantics to try and say oh, well because that Regal is not sent here after its assembled, but because its assembled overseas for use in another country it technically can't be considered a GM vehicle built in another county?, come on, give me a break!
so my original post was correct, I just should have been more specific with stating specific model years and country of use!
You will not get any response. Most people on this site live by perception and perceive that you just told at least 10 lies.
I don't know why anyone would think that. He bought a car he liked, got a good deal on it, and gets good mileage. I think the General should be excited they have a happy satisfied customer. If they keep that up, perception will change in time, and their reputation will continue to improve.
"......GM has markets in Canada, Europe, and China and last time I checked, a Regal assembled in Korea for use in China is still a GM product that is assembled overseas; again, your playing with semantics to try and say oh, well because that Regal is not sent here after its assembled, but because its assembled overseas for use in another country it technically can't be considered a GM vehicle built in another county?, "
Get back to the title of the forum; "BUYING American Cars......"
If it's built in Korea for sale in China, or built in Timbuktu for sale in Ho Chi Minh City for all I care, but NOT for sale here, it is of no consequence to this forum, as it applies to cars available for purchase here.
GM builds the Opel Insignia in Russelsheim, Germany (and the first of the 2011 Regals will come from there), but that's OK, as they actually SELL the Opel in Germany.
Canadians make wages similar to what we make, AND they buy our cars, too. That's OK in my book.
I agree with you, there is nothing wrong with GM building some of their products in Mexico, Canada, or where ever they want to; I really don't care; I do take issue of the Camaro being built in Canada but that is a discussion in another forum in which I posted so I won't go into that here!!
I was only illustrating the point that when you buy an American automobile from one of the American auto companies, 100% of that money does not all go to Detroit and the US economy, some of it goes to the Canadian economy, the Mexican economy, etc because GM has a heterogeneous company now similar to the Japanese and Korean companies, and some of the German companies! some of the money they make goes to foreign countries for the plants, parts, and workers who make and assembled their vehicles!
there were people excusing me and others, who bought Japanese vehicles did not support America and our economy, despite the fact one of my japanese cars was assembled in Ohio with 40% US parts while the other Japanese car was assembled in Tenn with 45% US parts!
Actually, I just rented a Cobalt in NC over the weekend with only 7K miles on it. It was a Looooong way from a mid priced VW. Spartan, basic, noisy. Cheap interior. Trunk opening was very small for the size of the trunk, with a high liftover. I'm sure it is good as a transportation car, like the Yaris or maybe even the Corolla. The Mazda 3 would be a big step up as the steering is light years better.
7 to 8 year old SUV and you are crying about $4K in repairs?
I've never had any car that old with anywhere near $4K in repairs. Even our minivan at 220K, our Jetta at 140K never had repair bills anything like that.
So the American car companies don't hire any of these same people??
They do, that is my point. The original poster was implying that since Toyota had only 30K employees they somehow weren't as *good* as the US makes. I was pointing out how simplistic it is to count only the plant workers themselves.
As far as the US nameplates, ultimately if the company can't make any money it does not matter how many are employed, as those jobs are not going to last long. Which is why counting all of the say, GM jobs a year or two ago is ridiculous. Those jobs were unsustainable in an economy that requires profit to survive over the long haul.
Just because it's an American company doesn't mean we have to blindly support disgraceful decisions and third-rate products.
Such a great line. I support this country but my standards are high. I'm not going to blindly support JUNK.
There is no reason the US should be the WalMart of the auto world. Big, cheap, mass market --- THIS IS YOUR CAR!!!!!!
As I've posted before, why can't I be proud of a US auto company? Why can't I buy a car like a BMW-3 or Jetta or even a Mazda 3 made by a US nameplate? I don't like trucks or SUVs -- to get a decent premium smaller sedan made by a US nameplate is impossible.
As I've posted before, why can't I be proud of a US auto company? Why can't I buy a car like a BMW-3 or Jetta or even a Mazda 3 made by a US nameplate? I don't like trucks or SUVs -- to get a decent premium smaller sedan made by a US nameplate is impossible.
Go drive a Fusion, pretty much any of them. Good steering feel, reasonable suspension, pretty close to the Mazda3 mark. The other thing is IIRC you have a Genesis and an Avalon prior to that, so I don't think you would really like a BMW-3 even if they made one.
I think the Jetta size is missing, but the current Jetta is kind of big anyway. I don't understand why everything has to keep growing. I liked my old Accord, I liked my old Contour, I liked my old Civic. I like our Legacy. If i wanted something as big as a house I would buy an SUV.
7 to 8 year old SUV and you are crying about $4K in repairs?
For someone to make that statement is exactly what I was referencing. That GM attitude "hey we sold you a vehicle and you are lucky we sold it to you, Now you should pay us to fix our mistakes. And let us know when we can put you in a new vehicle." My 11 year old Ford Explorer (150K miles) had a total of $3805 in repair work over the life of the vehicle. This included tire, brakes, suspension, ball joints, rear seal, ignition, hoses etc..These are expected wear items. The number does not include oil changes. I had people standing in line to buy it when I sold it because it was in great shape.
I actually worked for GM as in intern in High School. And as I stated before I have owned a number of GM products over the years. So why would I buy a GM product again? My experience is that it is a one sided relationship. Me with my wallet and they with their hand out.
So if I was to buy an "American" car today the only one I would look at is Ford. But I would also look at the other multinational companies.
The XFE has the same amenities as a mid 90's Geo Metro and the fuel economy is achieved by low rolling resitance balogna skins that squeal at 10mph and have the perfomance of a box truck.
Safety is bottom of the pack as well but hey it's cheap right? Maybe there are no Hyundai dealers around... :confuse:
Then there's that nasty little coverup that has been around since 2005
engineer....a bit off topic, but I travel a lot for work. As such, I rent probably 50 cars/year. My two faves (well, aside from renting a 'vette from Hertz, which my company won't cover) is both the Fusion and the Malibu. Maybe an Altima. They may not be exciting, but you can really tell how focused Ford and GM have become on making good, enjoyable to drive cars with those two models. Even the ones that I get that have quite a few miles on them are high quality.....no squeaks, rattles, big gaps in the seams, and very well put together.
The last couple of weeks, I've noticed that all of the rental agencies have pulled every model of Toyota from their fleets, regardless of whether they're on the recall list or not. Don't know what became of all them. They used to be fairly plentiful with the "big" rental agencies. They all just disappeared off the rental lots.
Go drive a Fusion, pretty much any of them. Good steering feel, reasonable suspension, pretty close to the Mazda3 mark. The other thing is IIRC you have a Genesis and an Avalon prior to that, so I don't think you would really like a BMW-3 even if they made one.
I think the Jetta size is missing, but the current Jetta is kind of big anyway. I don't understand why everything has to keep growing. I liked my old Accord, I liked my old Contour, I liked my old Civic. I like our Legacy. If i wanted something as big as a house I would buy an SUV.
I agree on the Fusion, and if I were in the market for a mid sizer it would be near the top of my list. It's just a bit big for my tastes. Agree that the cars have grown too much, especially the Accord. My current TL is just a bit too big for my tastes.
I've never had a Genesis or Avalon. Perhaps somebody else?
Initially congress tried to limit it to the big 3. That got squashed in a hurry as too many American workers in the US would be impacted. Dealers, Honda workers, Toyota workers, Nissan workers, etc... And many people questioned including Chrysler in the mix as they were a german parent moving to a private investment firm.
Most unbiased economists considered the program a huge failure from an American taxpayer perspective. Ultimately each clunker cost the Taxpayer approximately $24,000 (Edmunds study). I am surprised that any auto manufacturer, worker or dealer would complain for this additional handout. Since the groups hurt the most were the used car aftermarket and salvage yards. Ultimately the consumer decided which car they would buy under the program. Ford cleaned up in the program compared to its peers.
I have the 2004-2009 generation. I bought the TL because I wanted a luxo/sport car and my A4 was too small with the kids growing. The TL has been very reliable and I like the gadgets (nav/XM/bluetooth). But it is still too big and wallows in the turns. Not nearly as passion-inducing as my A4. I miss that car.
I believe Acura TL's are made in America, and TSX's in Japan. I was more impressed by the fit and finish and build quality on the interior of a TSX than I was the TL. The TL was good, but the TSX was almost Audi-like inside.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
assembled inside the USA if I can.
I also believe Mexico has shown they suck at assembling cars (VW & Chrysler issues).
I prefer stuff made in Germany or Japan.
maybe you should move there since you obviously have no interest supporting our economy.
I don't think that is how you win customers or friends.
I think you use data, like Ford vehicles that are as high or better quality than Japanese counterparts. I think you talk about the quality of the vehicles and the innovations that they incorporate.
People are going to buy what they want. You have to make people want your cars.
1) broken tailgate cables (ultimately recalled), poor coating and steel that ultimately rusted out.
2) broken tailgate lift mechanism - plastic (no longer metal) clip broke, to replace the clip the plastic bezel had to be removed and replaced also. Talking to the dealer and vendors on the web - common malfunction. Considering my truck is not a work truck and the liftgate is used infrequently - shoddy design.
3) Parking brakes, having used the parking brake maybe 10-12 times over 5 years the brake would no longer hold. After inspecting the parking brake - the bottom of shoe wore out and ruined the drum. Talking to the dealer and a couple of brake shops there was a poor quality clip used GM used on the shoes that caused the problem. GM refused to recall the issue (too prevalent) even though it could be a safety issue.
4) Separation of steering column shroud and tearing of the shifter boot. According to the dealer -- the plastic latching may 'occassionally' separate and cause this problem.
5) Separation of the fog light lenses from the housing. After less than 8 years I had one fog light lens fall off while driving. Less than a month later the other one fell off. In discussions with the dealer it was determined that the adhesive used has a short life span. Obviously <8 years, GM had gotten away from the retaining clips a few years back because they had problems with them. I've never had parts just 'falling' off a vehicle on any vehicle I have ever owned.
I understand wear parts and maintenence parts failing and needing replaced over the life of a vehicle. These items do not meet that criteria. Recently I have gotten more vocal with GM - what else is going to fall off when driving because of poor material selection? So approximately $500 of repairs later I am extremely concerned about the quality of the vehicle and what unplanned item will fail next. I have to admit that in 2011 when I replace this truck I most likely look to Ford first,Toyota 2nd (made in San Antonio) and just drive by the GM lots. Their response to this type of poor quality speaks volume about them as an organization.
If a company wants loyal customers they should at the relationship from both ways. Why would I want to give $35K or $40K to a company and have $500-$2000 of hidden defect in the product.
You could have bought a Toyota back then, and worried about engine sludge, tailgates falling off, or worse yet, the truck breaking in half due to frame rust. So it is all relative.
I hope that even if you don't consider a GM product, you'll look hard and long at a Ford over any other foreign manufacturer (no matter where the parts are put together). Look at Consumer Reports about Nissan trucks...surely nothing to write home about, although for some reason their reputation seems intact.
Bill P.
"May the best car win" is right.
Regards,
OW
Someone made a decision to change from the proven metal clip on the tailgate to a plastic clip and a one shot bezel. This design change to save the cost of the vehicle 32 cents cost me $40 + time. I can walk through a salvage yard and most vehicles that are intact have the original fog lenses. GM decided to go with an adhesive that fails in 7 years -- cost $200 plus time. So when I look at my true cost of ownership of a GM vehicle should add an extra 500-2000 because of these poor designs. For a few years I had a impala company car. It could not cool down the compartment of the vehicle. I took it to the dealer and after they tested it they stated it was working as designed. Able to cool 20 degrees to the outside. So when it was 100 outside the inside of the car would at best be 80. Works for Canada not for Texas. Extremely under designed. The vehicle also did not use a last set on air recirculation. It always failed to outside (as it was designed to). This might work in cooler states but not in Texas. When talking to GM this is the way it was designed. So every time you got in the vehicle you had to set it to recirc. This could be 10 or 15 times in a single day. Although the older a/c interface on my truck utilizes a last set condition...
My issue is that GM continues to 'add more features' but doesn't fix the core quality on the vehicle. GM continues to make poor quality design/engineering decisions. If GM does not care about providing a reliable/quality vehicle why should anyone buy their product. I already subsidize their organization with my tax dollars (both locally and federally), why should I also buy their products with expected costs of poor designs/quality impacting me for an additional 10-20% of the vehicle cost.
GM is one of the largest players in China, India and Europe. If they want to have protectionism in the US they should provide the US consumer with quality products. My strong suggestion to GM is go to quit treating the American buyer like a ATM machine and actually provide long term value.
They should be ashamed of themselves.
Anderson, Indiana lost 31,000 GM jobs since 1981.
So are you saying the US is better off by supporting inefficient manufacturers who create lots of jobs at high cost even if the work could be done by far fewer workers? Is that the way to a strong economy?
they might not equal the number of people employed by GM, Ford, or Chrysler but no matter how anti-japanese people spin it, they still make a meaningful contribution to your economy and provide ten's of thousands of jobs for Americans!
It took Bankruptcy for GM, Ford and Chrysler for the reality to set in. In Ford's case, they mortgaged everything to squeak by without C-11 but GM was in denial until the end. Chrysler was Dead Men Walking years ago...
Now we see similar forces at work at Toyota but I'll wager they take much more drastic action to save their brand than GM even could dream about.
Just because it's an American company doesn't mean we have to blindly support disgraceful decisions and third-rate products. Yeah, they made some decent trucks but the business model died long before June 1, 2009....R.I.P.
Regards,
OW
GM, Ford, and Chrysler certainly allowed this to happen as with the almost 30 some years I was with GM I very rarely was ever notified by GM of a recall on my vehicle; luckily I was car savy and read up on stuff and even if I brought the recall notice into the dealership they still gave me a run around of fixing my car!! or pretended they knew nothing of about the recall!!
now Toyota is guilty of doing the same thing with their accelerator and brake issues!!
I know that, the Senators from CT, NY, and NJ are going to work together to try and get the laws changed so that their is much more consumer and customer protection from auto manufactures in regards to recalls so that they are legally obligated to inform customers of potential defects in their vehicles that should be fixed!!! hopefully they can make it happen!!!
they might not equal the number of people employed by GM, Ford, or Chrysler but no matter how anti-japanese people spin it, they still make a meaningful contribution to your economy and provide ten's of thousands of jobs for Americans!
the problem is that the 10s of thousands employed by companies like GM are a FAILED BUSINESS MODEL. Those are not long lasting or valuable jobs to the economy.. .they are more like welfare jobs.
To have a truly strong economy you need to make products that are of high value. The fact that foreign nameplates can make cars in this country at reasonable cost with high quality and desirability supports and strengthens the US economy. Beyond the direct manufacturing jobs, you have thousands of other jobs....
Need to fix the plant electrical...call a local electrician.
Need to cater that plant lunch?.... go to a local caterer.
Need to transport those US assembled cars to dealers?... Hire a local trucking company, a US railroad.
Need to advertise those foreign-nameplate cars?... hire a US based advertising agency, hire US cameramen, videographers, production assistants, etc.
Need to recycle the waste from the foreign-namplate plant in the US?... hire a US recycler
Etc.
There are a lot of US jobs supported by manufacturing in the US. To only count the manufacturing staff *in the plant* is like seeing an iceberg based upon what is above the water line.
Of course, we know how perception is.
Bill P.
7 to 8 year old SUV and you are crying about $4K in repairs? Oh yea if you would of bought a Toyota it would still be running on the original tires right? How about the $25,000 Toyota trucks that the frames rusted in half after 7 years or the Toyota Oil sludge problems that ate your engine at 80,000 miles? You boys can cry over $4000.00 and go and get you a Toyota because I heard there selling real cheap now
Falling apart since new, this is HARDLY top-shelf product. AFAIC, my truck is third-rate junk and over priced.
There is one big reason GM went bankrupt and it wasn't because they were competent and the products were the ones to beat. They have been failing all along for decades. Now the new GM has religion and a lot of taxpayer dollars. Feeling good about that? :confuse:
Regards,
OW
Maybe YOU are the one who needs to do a little research. The current 2010 LaCrosse is built in Fairfax, Kansas.
Don't believe me??? I can do better than C&D, KBB or wikipedia.......MY WINDOW STICKER!!!
You will not get any response. Most people on this site live by perception and perceive that you just told at least 10 lies.
When the last Honda NA worker is replaced by a robot Utopia will be acheived. We wouldn't want to bite the hand that feeds us so we will all just love it.
They just moved in next door so I am now flanked by 2 Accords, an Odyssey and a Camry. A daily reminder of the unemployment rate.
BTW, the redesigned 2011 Aveo will be built in Orion, Mi., not Korea.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/22/spy-shots-first-look-at-the-2011-chevy-aveo/
Also, rumor has it this car:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/23/spy-shots-next-gen-cruze-based-buick-excelle-- for-china-snapped/
Will be built along side the Cruze and EXPORTED to China!!!
And those are unexpected repairs not normal maintenance and repair of wearable items such as brakes, fluids, battery, etc. No one in their right mind would expect unexpected repairs of that magnitude.
The Accords and Camry are built in the good ole US of A, not sure about the Odyssey. That should be a daily reminder of USA jobs.
God bless the internet:
Go here:
http://www.madeinusa.org/
take a chill pill man, just because I pointed out that several American cars aren't made here it is hard to make sure these assembly sites are accurate because GM has a bad habit of changing production sites often, sometimes without any advanced notice!
BTW, I wasn't talking about 2011 models with the Aveo and I just checked on GM production chart for the last two months, the Aveo was assembled in Mexico!
next time, pay a little bit more attention to what people are posting before responding, do your hw
here is a great link from GM's own website for current production of their vehicles and where they are assembled:
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9Mjg4NDR8Q2hpbGRJRD0tM- XxUeXBlPTM=&t=1
Need to cater that plant lunch?.... go to a local caterer.
Need to transport those US assembled cars to dealers?... Hire a local trucking company, a US railroad.
Need to advertise those foreign-nameplate cars?... hire a US based advertising agency, hire US cameramen, videographers, production assistants, etc."
So the American car companies don't hire any of these same people?? I guess the food just "magically appears" at a GM plant luncheon. Ford must beam their F150's to the dealer like on Star Trek. NBC must just hook up some machine to Bob Lutz, and VOILA!!!! A commercial appears During Law and Order
No, I said the CURRENT 2010 LaCrosse. I know the old W body Lacrosse was made in Oshawa, as was the Regal prior to it (you do realize that the SAME LaCrosse was sold in Canada as well, as the Allure??). The CURRENT LaCrosse is built along side the Malibu in Fairfax Ks.
I think you just proved my point by stating that our Regal is going to be built in Canada! just another example of a GM product made in a other country, and their is nothing wrong with that, I was just pointing out to japanese haters that GM has a huge foreign component in their company for parts and assembly of their vehicles!
GM has markets in Canada, Europe, and China and last time I checked, a Regal assembled in Korea for use in China is still a GM product that is assembled overseas; again, your playing with semantics to try and say oh, well because that Regal is not sent here after its assembled, but because its assembled overseas for use in another country it technically can't be considered a GM vehicle built in another county?, come on, give me a break!
so my original post was correct, I just should have been more specific with stating specific model years and country of use!
I don't know why anyone would think that. He bought a car he liked, got a good deal on it, and gets good mileage. I think the General should be excited they have a happy satisfied customer. If they keep that up, perception will change in time, and their reputation will continue to improve.
Get back to the title of the forum; "BUYING American Cars......"
If it's built in Korea for sale in China, or built in Timbuktu for sale in Ho Chi Minh City for all I care, but NOT for sale here, it is of no consequence to this forum, as it applies to cars available for purchase here.
GM builds the Opel Insignia in Russelsheim, Germany (and the first of the 2011 Regals will come from there), but that's OK, as they actually SELL the Opel in Germany.
Canadians make wages similar to what we make, AND they buy our cars, too. That's OK in my book.
I was only illustrating the point that when you buy an American automobile from one of the American auto companies, 100% of that money does not all go to Detroit and the US economy, some of it goes to the Canadian economy, the Mexican economy, etc because GM has a heterogeneous company now similar to the Japanese and Korean companies, and some of the German companies! some of the money they make goes to foreign countries for the plants, parts, and workers who make and assembled their vehicles!
there were people excusing me and others, who bought Japanese vehicles did not support America and our economy, despite the fact one of my japanese cars was assembled in Ohio with 40% US parts while the other Japanese car was assembled in Tenn with 45% US parts!
Actually, I just rented a Cobalt in NC over the weekend with only 7K miles on it. It was a Looooong way from a mid priced VW. Spartan, basic, noisy. Cheap interior. Trunk opening was very small for the size of the trunk, with a high liftover. I'm sure it is good as a transportation car, like the Yaris or maybe even the Corolla. The Mazda 3 would be a big step up as the steering is light years better.
I've never had any car that old with anywhere near $4K in repairs. Even our minivan at 220K, our Jetta at 140K never had repair bills anything like that.
They do, that is my point. The original poster was implying that since Toyota had only 30K employees they somehow weren't as *good* as the US makes. I was pointing out how simplistic it is to count only the plant workers themselves.
As far as the US nameplates, ultimately if the company can't make any money it does not matter how many are employed, as those jobs are not going to last long. Which is why counting all of the say, GM jobs a year or two ago is ridiculous. Those jobs were unsustainable in an economy that requires profit to survive over the long haul.
Such a great line. I support this country but my standards are high. I'm not going to blindly support JUNK.
There is no reason the US should be the WalMart of the auto world. Big, cheap, mass market --- THIS IS YOUR CAR!!!!!!
As I've posted before, why can't I be proud of a US auto company? Why can't I buy a car like a BMW-3 or Jetta or even a Mazda 3 made by a US nameplate? I don't like trucks or SUVs -- to get a decent premium smaller sedan made by a US nameplate is impossible.
Go drive a Fusion, pretty much any of them. Good steering feel, reasonable suspension, pretty close to the Mazda3 mark. The other thing is IIRC you have a Genesis and an Avalon prior to that, so I don't think you would really like a BMW-3 even if they made one.
I think the Jetta size is missing, but the current Jetta is kind of big anyway. I don't understand why everything has to keep growing. I liked my old Accord, I liked my old Contour, I liked my old Civic. I like our Legacy. If i wanted something as big as a house I would buy an SUV.
For someone to make that statement is exactly what I was referencing. That GM attitude "hey we sold you a vehicle and you are lucky we sold it to you, Now you should pay us to fix our mistakes. And let us know when we can put you in a new vehicle." My 11 year old Ford Explorer (150K miles) had a total of $3805 in repair work over the life of the vehicle. This included tire, brakes, suspension, ball joints, rear seal, ignition, hoses etc..These are expected wear items. The number does not include oil changes. I had people standing in line to buy it when I sold it because it was in great shape.
I actually worked for GM as in intern in High School. And as I stated before I have owned a number of GM products over the years. So why would I buy a GM product again? My experience is that it is a one sided relationship. Me with my wallet and they with their hand out.
So if I was to buy an "American" car today the only one I would look at is Ford. But I would also look at the other multinational companies.
lol, just joshin ya, the Fusion is a great ride.
Safety is bottom of the pack as well but hey it's cheap right?
Then there's that nasty little coverup that has been around since 2005
link title
The last couple of weeks, I've noticed that all of the rental agencies have pulled every model of Toyota from their fleets, regardless of whether they're on the recall list or not. Don't know what became of all them. They used to be fairly plentiful with the "big" rental agencies. They all just disappeared off the rental lots.
I think the Jetta size is missing, but the current Jetta is kind of big anyway. I don't understand why everything has to keep growing. I liked my old Accord, I liked my old Contour, I liked my old Civic. I like our Legacy. If i wanted something as big as a house I would buy an SUV.
I agree on the Fusion, and if I were in the market for a mid sizer it would be near the top of my list. It's just a bit big for my tastes. Agree that the cars have grown too much, especially the Accord. My current TL is just a bit too big for my tastes.
I've never had a Genesis or Avalon. Perhaps somebody else?
What generation is your TL?
Its amazing how the cars have grown, I miss the original Legend with the 2.7 V6 and a 5 speed.
Most unbiased economists considered the program a huge failure from an American taxpayer perspective. Ultimately each clunker cost the Taxpayer approximately $24,000 (Edmunds study). I am surprised that any auto manufacturer, worker or dealer would complain for this additional handout. Since the groups hurt the most were the used car aftermarket and salvage yards. Ultimately the consumer decided which car they would buy under the program. Ford cleaned up in the program compared to its peers.
I have the 2004-2009 generation. I bought the TL because I wanted a luxo/sport car and my A4 was too small with the kids growing. The TL has been very reliable and I like the gadgets (nav/XM/bluetooth). But it is still too big and wallows in the turns. Not nearly as passion-inducing as my A4. I miss that car.