>"I've had many great cars from GM. I've fewer troubles and cost than if I were to have gone with the popular with the blind masses Honda and toyotas/lexus/scion."
Looks like you have never actually owned a "FOREIGN" brand, especially in the price range of your UAW brands. So how can you be so sure? :confuse:
Your Grandpa had excellent taste in cars. Mine had a 1989 Chevrolet Caprice Classic which he bought new and was still driving two weeks before he passed away at 87 two years ago. You'd have to drive a Roadmaster off a cliff to kill it! My friend's Dad had a 1992 Roadmaster. A tree fell on it and he was still able to drive it. Back in the day, the Roadmaster was second on my car shopping A-list behind the Cadillac Fleetwood.
It ain't the car, it's the driver! I used to drive a 1979 Ford LTD taxicab and could drive it like it was a Formula 1 racer. I haven't lost the desire to drive and I have always driven the same type of car. I had a very pleasant drive to the office in my Cadillac DTS this morning!
I don't have to own them. I've driven plenty of them as rentals and/or cars that belonged to friends or relatives. Really, there is no difference in quality or reliability. It's all hype. If it's anything I can't stand is the dull or bizarre styling of Asian makes. I've driven a Lexus LS and I've come to the conclusion that it is a much more expensive Buick Park Avenue. If I were to buy a foreign car, it would likely be a Mercedes E-Class or S-Class, but the maintenance and repair costs greatly frighten me. My brother-in-law has had enough trouble with his S430. BMWs aren't as pretty and are more fragile and tempermental. An Audi A8 will eat you alive as it ages.
Just doesn't apply to Wall Street. There a plenty of people in the 'hood that fit that description. Of course at one time they could make it on there own when there were plenty of factory jobs. I'd much rather have them sewing Botany 500 suits or welding Budd rail cars than living on the dole and getting into trouble with all that idle time.
My dad retired his 04' Grand Prix last fall with 2x0 something thousand miles on it and it was pretty reliable. The worst thing was a crack in the intake manifold (Dexcool coverup/fiasco) about 2 months into ownership and then a nasty transmission slippage for around the last 70k or so. Couple of wheel bearings, fuel pumps, computer modules, otherwise it never left him stranded.
Was it reliable? Hell yes. Could I live with one on a daily basis? No thanks, I'd rather take a bus.
Edit: Not sure if you've had to deal with this yet diesel but the build quality of the GP was atrocious. Not one, but both of the front headlights just fell off and had to be replaced. The interior bits were some of the worst I have ever seen, they make a Cobalt look like a damn luxury car. Most of the control knobs had stripped off by the time it was dumped, the seats were about as contoured as a park bench (foam inserts were thinner than deck chair cushions), and the headliner was always coming unglued.
And those 2-bit HAL graphics display had to have been supplied by Casio. They were eerily reminiscent of the calculator I had back in elementary school
My father had the Luminas sibling, the Corsica as a company car for a while. It was an early trade tho as the engine literally siezed itself around 40 thousand miles. :sick:
I dunno why that GP looked like that after such a short time. I had a 1988 Buick Park Avenue until March 28, 2009 and it showed NONE of those kinds of wear in the interior. The headliner was still intact. ALL of the controls still worked, the seats were so comfortable, passengers still wished auto manufacturers made nice plush seats like them, and it still had three of the original headlamp bulbs from 1988! When I changed the left front low beam bulb a year before I sold the car, it was stamped FEB '88.
Actually it wasn't a short time, he had the thing up until 240 thousand miles or so.
Pontiacs for the past decade or so were mostly fleet and rental queens. Not surprised they cut corners with them. Also, I wouldn't doubt that they would put a little more care into Buicks since they were marketed as higher than Pontiac on the GM totem pole. :shades:
>" I'd much rather have them sewing Botany 500 suits or welding Budd rail cars than living on the dole and getting into trouble with all that idle time. "
There are still factory jobs in the USA. They just might have a Logo other than GM on their building. And they may not be in inner cities. There are also jobs in shops and stores. And yeah Walmart. A person will make as much or as little as they have ability and drive to make. A guy that wants to flip burgers will naturally make less than a doctor, lawyer or indian chief.
UAW tried to change all that and it worked for a long time, but how has that worked out for the company in the end? And consequently the work force?
I wonder if workers in other countries have as much mental stress with working in plants owned by American firms, as some folks seem to have with Americans working in foreign owned companies.
Or are they proud to go to work every day and bring home a pay check every week.
While it is absolutely true that someone on the line at Toyota doesn't make as much as the old timers at GM, they are likely making about the same as the "New Hires" at GM and doing well for their education level.
The old timers and their "Entitlement" attitudes are part of what brought GM to the edge of bankruptcy. Of course GM's "We will build what we think you need" mentality was a serious contributor.
You'd have to drive a Roadmaster off a cliff to kill it! My friend's Dad had a 1992 Roadmaster.
I disagree, they had all of the typical GM problems. Poor fit and finish, electrical gremlins etc. I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a RM on the road. I know my grandpa traded his in on a P/A when the RM had around 120k miles on it. The trans was having o/d issues, and it had left him stranded a few times. I was with him one time, thank God for AAA, IIRC it was the starter that failed around 40k miles. More serious issues followed as the miles increased. And yes, my grandpa took care of his cars. Talk about odd styling, I'm sorry, but that was one ugly car. I will say it road nice (handled horrible) and soft and the seats were comfortable. The TBI 350 was nothing special though. Sucked gas, wasn't overly smooth or quiet when pushed, but had torque. Basically it was a truck engine
My grandpa did have an '87 Caprice Classic Brougham LS before the Roadmaster and I actually liked that car. It was white with dark tinted windows. Looked sharp, IIRC, I like how it drove over the RM.
I've driven a Lexus LS and I've come to the conclusion that it is a much more expensive Buick Park Avenue.
Well that explains everything. Not that I have any desire to own a Lexus LS, but to put a Park Ave in the same class as an LS is automotive blasphemy. Every LS I've been around has shown meticulous attention to detail and refinement, OTOH I've not seen a Buick that was any better than your common Chevy (new LaCrosse excluded). If you think a 3800v6 is just a smooth and/or powerful as a 4L, 4.3L, or 4.6L I don't know what to say other than you have the thickest GM colored glasses possible. Back when the P/A was around, the LS was legendary for it's quality and refinement. GM didn't have any car that could compete with the LS, much less a Buick.
Edit: Not sure if you've had to deal with this yet diesel but the build quality of the GP was atrocious. Not one, but both of the front headlights just fell off and had to be replaced. The interior bits were some of the worst I have ever seen, they make a Cobalt look like a damn luxury car. Most of the control knobs had stripped off by the time it was dumped, the seats were about as contoured as a park bench (foam inserts were thinner than deck chair cushions), and the headliner was always coming unglued.
Oh, yeah. The GP was atrocious the day it left the factory. The car has the worst seats I think I've ever sampled in a car. Just horribly uncomfortable. The interior is absolutely pathetic. IMO, GM should be ashamed to make such trash available to the public and be punished for doing so. Oh that's right, they did go bankrupt, go figure.
I'd expect this from Russia's Lada, but certainly not a car company actually trying to sell cars in a competitive market. I don't know, maybe Lemko could appreciate it. It does have a 3800, so it can't be that bad right:) Though, the last time I checked the oil, I did have to add two quarts. If I could, I'd take that car straight to the crusher. When a severe storm warning is issued, we back the GP out of the garage, hoping something will happen to it.
The other day, I was following my wife in my Expediton. We were driving down a road that had a coarse surface. We were talking to each other on our cell phones. The road noise was so pronounced in the GP that I couldn't hear my wife talk, yet I hardly could hear any road noise in the Expe. I can go on and on on what a horrible car the GP is. If it was 10 years old, I wouldn't say much about it, but the fact this POS was built as late as '08 just shows what a mess GM was/is.
My first new car was a 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic. Mine was black with a gray cloth interior. I traded it for the 1989 Cadillac Brougham I still own. If you want a Roadmaster, the 1994-96 models are the ones to get with the LT-1 derived V-8.
I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a RM on the road. Come to Philly! They are as common as Camcords in California.
Say it ain't so, imidaz...I want to live in the past...
On a serious note, my past experience with Honda would certainly make me go back and check them out again...I would guess that something has changed, of course, but reading the posts here, Big 3 cars are an interesting mixed bag...if you don't count lemko, the level of dissatisfaction with Big 3 seems quite high...
Repetitive disclosure: despite my rantings about the UAW and Big 3 quality, I have bought American since 1998...two current cars are 2004 Crown Vic and 2004 Ram Hemi...have had problems, but most fixed under warranty...Ford power windows need to be redesigned as they break easily...car/truck quality has been good, but not as solidly built as my Hondas...or at least my Hondas of 22 years ago... :P
The 3800 engine was one of the best engines of all time. It delivered decent power and excellent fuel economy. There have been two cars in our fleet with the 3800 - my 1988 Buick Park Avenue and my wife's 2005 Buick LaCrosse. I'm surprised you're adding oil to it between changes. How long are your oil change intervals? We change ours religiously every 3K miles. Are you using dino or synthetic?
I have a 2005 Mercury Grand Marquis LS which is almost identical to a 2004 Crown Vic despite a different grille and a slab of red reflective plastic between the taillamps.
The 3800 engine was one of the best engines of all time. It delivered decent power and excellent fuel economy. There have been two cars in our fleet with the 3800 - my 1988 Buick Park Avenue and my wife's 2005 Buick LaCrosse. I'm surprised you're adding oil to it between changes. How long are your oil change intervals? We change ours religiously every 3K miles. Are you using dino or synthetic?
I disagree 1000%. I'll go as far as saying it's the best push rod v6 I've driven, but that doesn't say much. I really don't see the gas mileage part. The gas mileage my wife gets out of the GP is no better than any other v6 sedan she's had, it certainly doesn't stand out IMO. Plus it's not like it hasn't had it's share of issues over the years.
As for the oil issue, dino oil is used. Up until this oil change I'd get it changed between 3-5k miles depending on how fast my wife put the miles on. Now the maintenance program has changed to 7500 oil changes from now on per the fleet maintenance program.
When it was 2 quarts low last month, it had 3k on the oil change. I've noticed it has used a 1/2 qt. between oil changes from time to time, but this was the first time it's ever used more than a qt. I'll be keeping my eye on it to see if something is up.
I'm confused. Haven't we heard this story many times about your wife's GP. But wasn't it a company provided car? Is it company owned? Or do you provide maintenance for the company car?
I'm confused. Haven't we heard this story many times about your wife's GP. But wasn't it a company provided car? Is it company owned? Or do you provide maintenance for the company car?
Yeah, it's a company car. My wife (me) has to take it to an authorized service center for maintenance that is billed directly to the fleet company. They required oil changes be done every 3k miles, but last month my wife got a revised maintenance schedule that requires oil changes at every 7,500 miles. So while we don't pay for the maintenance, we do have to take it in and I do check the oil once an a while. I'm sure my wife's employer wouldn't be happy that she ruined an engine by not checking the oil. Checking the oil is even more important now on a 7,500 interval.
I wonder how many people routinely check their oil? I'd bet most people don't.
I don't know what happened to the oil. It does leak a bit on the garage floor, but nothing to indicate a major leak. It's used a 1/2 qt or so between oil changes, but that's not a big deal. I was just shocked to check the oil one day and hardly any oil showed on the dip stick
I have a 2005 Mercury Grand Marquis LS which is almost identical to a 2004 Crown Vic despite a different grille and a slab of red reflective plastic between the taillamps.
To bad Ford let that car die on the vine. Those were nice cars when introduced in '92 (actually '91 as a '92 model). Yeah, it's received some updates along the way, but they've been far from what's been required to keep the car relevant.
My dad had a '92 that he ordered in '91 that went nearly 230k miles relatively trouble free. That was impressive considering it had to endure 3 teenagers beating the hell out of it on a regular occasion.
Aside from a rather old looking dashboard (the car IS made for the elderly, even tho I am not elderly), my real beef is the engine is underpowered...even at 239 HP and about the same amount of tork, it really does not scoot...now, had they dropped in the Marauder 300 HP 4.6L, we might have something to talk about...but they didn't... :lemon:
The old USA we love and cherish goes down the pipe, GM & Chrysler bankrupt, and we are praising the transplants for saving the day...The $30.00 an hour savings in producing a car goes right back to Asia, and quess what??? Your tax $$$$$s helped all the Asian transplants build new state-of-art assembly operations and the respective states donated your taxes to train the workers and the Asians are allowed tax-breaks until the end of time..The playing field is a little lopsided..but I not going to spend any more time for this topic is loaded with transplant ideologues..
Spent from 1967-2002 in the Detroit auto game, owned 53 cars, driven a few million miles, made a few $$$$s, and watch the whole game change..The new game is not a pretty picture, so we will let you folks see if the new game fits your "living style"..Having spent 2yrs as a VP of Marketing & Sales for a Japanese OEM mfgr located in Battle Creek, Mich early 80s, I found out they aren't really fun people and are "cheap"..I decided life was too short to play their silly games..so I spent the balance of my career as a self-employed commisioned rep and my life was under my control..All one needed then was a phone, computer, and a fax., yes,also an address to receive your commission checks..Didn't have any Asian auto guys on my schedule, made 1 call on Honda in Marysville, Ohio, asked to quote on the forged 4-banger cranks, and a suspension part, I declined the opportunity..been there and done that, realizing their end game..My source was already making forged V-8 cranks plus V-8 & V-6 outboard cranks on 4k & 6k ton forging presses..
Somebody on this discussion mentioned a Porsche mid-50s racing engine and their friend suffered a failure of a critical component, that would have been the DOHC-4cyl Carrera...Had a 58 & 59 Porsche Super Coupes, great trouble free cars, bought new at factory, sold 58 w/22k in Germany ,and bought the 59 back to the states, sold it around 36k mi, and broke even on the Porsche party..Cost new was $2,750 and the only option I added to the 59 was Koni Shocks for an upcharge of $15.00..
Now 3.8 GM engines, in various cars, little on the drony side, noisy, but 100% reliable..The S/C Pontiac w/SLP, catback exhaust is fun, noisy and thristy. Ran a 94 Buick 111k--engine never touched except for oil chages and filters, 92 Regal GS went 95k, no touchy..Great engine, but not high-tech, GM pumped 35m of those babies while they were paying the UAW $75.00/hr just to slap the cars together..
Wait till Obama gets the Asian transplants organized with a little Socialist flare of the UAW and whatever gang he can force the offshore guys to accept..THe game has changed for the American family, so don't complain if you can't have the Cake with your Asian car..
Aside from a rather old looking dashboard (the car IS made for the elderly, even tho I am not elderly), my real beef is the engine is underpowered...even at 239 HP and about the same amount of tork, it really does not scoot.
Well it could be worse. You could be driving a late model Lucerne with a 3800 that is over a second slower 0-60 than a 4.6 powered Crown Vic and you'd have to listen to that v6 groaning for mercy on top of it.
".....That's why market share and sales are a big part of the equation as far as quality, dependability and satisfaction results."
While this may be true, unfortunately the data you show has a bigger explanation as to why the market share slipped for GM, F, and C. At the beginning of the chart, where the market share was high, US sales of trucks and suv's were at an all time high (over 50% of the entire market), and that has historically been their forte'. Where the lines begin their major shift towards intersecting coincides with $4/gal gas, and NOT with a gap in quality, which, according to your beloved CR, has been there all along.
".....Personally, when I buy a car, I pay cash. Other than knowing I have insurance and a valid DL, my bank account number, and that the account had enough money to cover the check, what financial and personal info does JDP have on me? How did it get the info? Does it have my medical history? Why or why not?"
I don't think they have that information, just the name and address of a person that bought car X, model Y, brand new. 3 years from now they may send you another survey asking your thoughts on that car, IF you still own it. They have no idea whether or not you still do.
see the problem with that logic is, CR recommends the entire Ford line-up the last 2-3 years and most all of their products have above avg or much above avg reliability so where is the lack of quality CR keeps reporting about huh? not with Ford! only in GM and Chrysler who rightly still deserve criticism because they haven't retooled their entire line-up, especially Chrysler who still makes piss poor stuff across the board!
GM and Chrysler are a few years behind were Ford is now!
".....But, does the local benefit translate into a national benefit?"
THAT, nowadays seems to be the question everybody ignores. In that case, the "local" benefit does translate into an national benefit, as those were jobs that did not exist before, and now do. But if state A entices a company to move there from state B, there is zero gain. And if we keep allowing our companies to just ship jobs out of the country, then everybody loses.
Enjoy reading your post as usual, motorcity. You, sir, have certainly lived the car life. Have you bought the '11 Mustang yet? Are you still considering? Can't wait to see how far that one at Bristol goes on a single tank of gas; think they're doing it tomorrow, Wed. I entered the contest some time back, be nice if I won, real nice. Wouldn't mind that Stang one bit! I've recently been researching one year old Lincoln MKSs, with the a/c driver's and passenger seats, actually a guised up Taurus. You know anything of them? Are they good cars? I'm seriously considering going back to a domestic (stopped back in '98), now that their reliability is getting better. My SIL is an ASE certified Ford mech and he says they just keep getting better.
Where the lines begin their major shift towards intersecting coincides with $4/gal gas, and NOT with a gap in quality, which, according to your beloved CR, has been there all along.
Nah, GM quality blew away all competition for the last 30 years.
Let's take your result. It all happened because of the price of gas? Well, either way, they blew it. Gas wasn't going back to $0.30 per gallon ever again. Head in the sand!
No gap in quality for GM. It's all an aborition!
CR didn't go bankrupt and the cars AND trucks they rated higher succeeded while gas was the beauty that killed the GM beast. Yep, I saw that movie!
Gas is what caused the profit bleeding also. Gas caused the cost of mfg. to skyrocket also. If it weren't for the price of gas....
I had two ['99 and '02] Buick Regals with 3800 engines; both went past 100,000 miles trouble free. 30+ mpg on the road [average 22mpg on mixed driving fillup] is good mileage to me. Lousy fit 'n' finish, HUGE content, low price with all the $$$ GM put on their hoods and ZERO defects throughout their service.
Currently driving an '07 RAV4 and its lack of refinement, cheesy interior and fragile, non-clearcoated SuperWhite paint make this my first and last Toyota. Even though it's been trouble free, by today's standards, it's a mediocre vehicle.
Definition of a US-made vehicle - It's sold by Ford, GM, and, maybe, Chrysler [what's with the Fiat connection?]. Why? Because the profits from those sales stay here in America. It's too bad all those transplant factories have foreign logos on their gates, but Toyota, et.al. did us all a big favor in raising the quality bar for all manufacturers.
Definition of a US-made vehicle - It's sold by Ford, GM, and, maybe, Chrysler [what's with the Fiat connection?]. Why? Because the profits from those sales stay here in America.
Nope. Not by a long shot.
Those profits can be invested anywhere. And, I doubt very much that the Big-3 management feels any "obligation" to invest in America. If they did, then why did they move so much production out of the country?
".....Personally, when I buy a car, I pay cash. Other than knowing I have insurance and a valid DL, my bank account number, and that the account had enough money to cover the check, what financial and personal info does JDP have on me? How did it get the info? Does it have my medical history? Why or why not?"
I don't think they have that information, just the name and address of a person that bought car X, model Y, brand new. 3 years from now they may send you another survey asking your thoughts on that car, IF you still own it. They have no idea whether or not you still do.
That was my point all along.
For someone to think that any survey company can simply "fill in the blanks" with data they already have on hand (to supplement those who do not respond in a survey) really shows just how little they understand about the difficulty in getting meaningful, accurate data and results.
Aside from a rather old looking dashboard (the car IS made for the elderly, even tho I am not elderly), my real beef is the engine is underpowered...even at 239 HP and about the same amount of tork, it really does not scoot
Actually, that's the police version, which is available to the public under the guise of "trailering package" or something like that. Dual exhaust, better tires and rims, beefier sway bar, and a quicker axle ratio go along with that 239 hp. In standard form, I think the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis only puts out 224 hp.
FWIW, torque is around 275 ft-lb with the 224 hp version. Not sure what it is with the 239, but probably not much different. Usually a dual exhaust will bump up your hp, and might give you a broader hp and torque curve, but probably wouldn't do anything to actually boost the peak torque.
Of late, the Crown Vic, as a police cruiser, has been coming up short in the performance department. Despite having a 4.6 V-8, it really doesn't do any better than a Charger with the 3.5 or an Impala with the 3.9. And a Hemi Charger blows it away. However, it's still a durable workhorse that you can abuse the hell out of, and is fairly cheap to fix when it does break. And, as the old saying goes, you might be able to outrun a police cruiser, but you can't outrun the radio! (unless you're close enough to the state line, I guess )
I have the LS Sport which has the dual exhaust and quicker axle ratio, which may be why the sticker said 17/25 mpg, but I have NEVER exceeded 20 mpg no matter how I drive...if it has the "performance" rear end, then the sticker should have stated 17/20...I really thought with gentle driving it might get near 25 highway, but never...
>don't think they have that information, just the name and address of a person that bought car X, model Y, brand new. 3 years from now they may send you another survey asking your thoughts on that car, IF you still own it. They have no idea whether or not you still do.
They have access to state registration data showing whether you still own license plates for that car and if you transferred the plate to a new vehicle. They have access to the state title data showing if you still own the vehicle or if it has been transferred to a dealer/new owner. this is what CarFax and the other company use to help track a vehicle.
>That was my point all along.
>For someone to think that any survey company can simply "fill in the blanks" with data they already have on hand
If someone thinks all that info about you from various forms you have filled in online, data from credit applications, the three (is there a fourth now?) credit tracking companies, and other public and private records disappears, they should try googling their own name. Then try 411.com, switchboard.com. You'll get all kinds of offers from companies willing to share the data they have aggreggated about you.
It also offers: Aliases & Maiden Names Misdemeanors & Felonies Up to a 40-year Address History Phone Numbers Age & Date of Birth Property Ownership Marriages & Divorces Bankruptcies Neighbors & Possible Relatives And other useful information
And earlier screen offered court records, criminal records, and public records.
Better sources are available for finding someone than these; these are for the general public. Private investigators will learn a lot about someone. E.g., I tried to find someone I knew 30-35 years ago. I found he had been in court many times suing and being sued. He had filed bankruptcy. He had several driving violations. This I found from public records without paying any company $40.
I have the LS Sport which has the dual exhaust and quicker axle ratio, which may be why the sticker said 17/25 mpg, but I have NEVER exceeded 20 mpg no matter how I drive...if it has the "performance" rear end, then the sticker should have stated 17/20...I really thought with gentle driving it might get near 25 highway, but never...
That's only marginally better than my Expediton. To bad the 5.4 won't fit under the hood. It would probably wouldn't have cost to much to put it under the hood with the 6 speed trans. That would have livened it up a bit and would probably get better fuel economy too.
But, the CV and GM's fate were sealed along time ago. It was a nice car in it's day, but those days are gone.
Comments
At other times, supporting American WORKERS means supporting foreign-nameplate vehicles built in the USA!"
It sure is a gray area, isn't it?
That sounds like your talking about Wall Street, Insurance company, and auto company bailouts.
We'll just keep feeding them over and over and over again, since they can't make it on their own.
Looks like you have never actually owned a "FOREIGN" brand, especially in the price range of your UAW brands. So how can you be so sure? :confuse:
Kip
It ain't the car, it's the driver! I used to drive a 1979 Ford LTD taxicab and could drive it like it was a Formula 1 racer. I haven't lost the desire to drive and I have always driven the same type of car. I had a very pleasant drive to the office in my Cadillac DTS this morning!
Was it reliable? Hell yes. Could I live with one on a daily basis? No thanks, I'd rather take a bus.
Edit: Not sure if you've had to deal with this yet diesel but the build quality of the GP was atrocious. Not one, but both of the front headlights just fell off and had to be replaced. The interior bits were some of the worst I have ever seen, they make a Cobalt look like a damn luxury car. Most of the control knobs had stripped off by the time it was dumped, the seats were about as contoured as a park bench (foam inserts were thinner than deck chair cushions), and the headliner was always coming unglued.
And those 2-bit HAL graphics display had to have been supplied by Casio. They were eerily reminiscent of the calculator I had back in elementary school
Pontiacs for the past decade or so were mostly fleet and rental queens. Not surprised they cut corners with them. Also, I wouldn't doubt that they would put a little more care into Buicks since they were marketed as higher than Pontiac on the GM totem pole. :shades:
There are still factory jobs in the USA. They just might have a Logo other than GM on their building. And they may not be in inner cities. There are also jobs in shops and stores. And yeah Walmart. A person will make as much or as little as they have ability and drive to make. A guy that wants to flip burgers will naturally make less than a doctor, lawyer or indian chief.
UAW tried to change all that and it worked for a long time, but how has that worked out for the company in the end? And consequently the work force?
I wonder if workers in other countries have as much mental stress with working in plants owned by American firms, as some folks seem to have with Americans working in foreign owned companies.
Or are they proud to go to work every day and bring home a pay check every week.
While it is absolutely true that someone on the line at Toyota doesn't make as much as the old timers at GM, they are likely making about the same as the "New Hires" at GM and doing well for their education level.
The old timers and their "Entitlement" attitudes are part of what brought GM to the edge of bankruptcy. Of course GM's "We will build what we think you need" mentality was a serious contributor.
Kip
I disagree, they had all of the typical GM problems. Poor fit and finish, electrical gremlins etc. I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a RM on the road. I know my grandpa traded his in on a P/A when the RM had around 120k miles on it. The trans was having o/d issues, and it had left him stranded a few times. I was with him one time, thank God for AAA, IIRC it was the starter that failed around 40k miles. More serious issues followed as the miles increased. And yes, my grandpa took care of his cars. Talk about odd styling, I'm sorry, but that was one ugly car. I will say it road nice (handled horrible) and soft and the seats were comfortable. The TBI 350 was nothing special though. Sucked gas, wasn't overly smooth or quiet when pushed, but had torque. Basically it was a truck engine
My grandpa did have an '87 Caprice Classic Brougham LS before the Roadmaster and I actually liked that car. It was white with dark tinted windows. Looked sharp, IIRC, I like how it drove over the RM.
Well that explains everything. Not that I have any desire to own a Lexus LS, but to put a Park Ave in the same class as an LS is automotive blasphemy. Every LS I've been around has shown meticulous attention to detail and refinement, OTOH I've not seen a Buick that was any better than your common Chevy (new LaCrosse excluded). If you think a 3800v6 is just a smooth and/or powerful as a 4L, 4.3L, or 4.6L I don't know what to say other than you have the thickest GM colored glasses possible. Back when the P/A was around, the LS was legendary for it's quality and refinement. GM didn't have any car that could compete with the LS, much less a Buick.
Oh, yeah. The GP was atrocious the day it left the factory. The car has the worst seats I think I've ever sampled in a car. Just horribly uncomfortable. The interior is absolutely pathetic. IMO, GM should be ashamed to make such trash available to the public and be punished for doing so. Oh that's right, they did go bankrupt, go figure.
I'd expect this from Russia's Lada, but certainly not a car company actually trying to sell cars in a competitive market. I don't know, maybe Lemko could appreciate it. It does have a 3800, so it can't be that bad right:) Though, the last time I checked the oil, I did have to add two quarts. If I could, I'd take that car straight to the crusher. When a severe storm warning is issued, we back the GP out of the garage, hoping something will happen to it.
The other day, I was following my wife in my Expediton. We were driving down a road that had a coarse surface. We were talking to each other on our cell phones. The road noise was so pronounced in the GP that I couldn't hear my wife talk, yet I hardly could hear any road noise in the Expe. I can go on and on on what a horrible car the GP is. If it was 10 years old, I wouldn't say much about it, but the fact this POS was built as late as '08 just shows what a mess GM was/is.
I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a RM on the road. Come to Philly! They are as common as Camcords in California.
Say it ain't so, imidaz...I want to live in the past...
On a serious note, my past experience with Honda would certainly make me go back and check them out again...I would guess that something has changed, of course, but reading the posts here, Big 3 cars are an interesting mixed bag...if you don't count lemko, the level of dissatisfaction with Big 3 seems quite high...
Repetitive disclosure: despite my rantings about the UAW and Big 3 quality, I have bought American since 1998...two current cars are 2004 Crown Vic and 2004 Ram Hemi...have had problems, but most fixed under warranty...Ford power windows need to be redesigned as they break easily...car/truck quality has been good, but not as solidly built as my Hondas...or at least my Hondas of 22 years ago...
I disagree 1000%. I'll go as far as saying it's the best push rod v6 I've driven, but that doesn't say much. I really don't see the gas mileage part. The gas mileage my wife gets out of the GP is no better than any other v6 sedan she's had, it certainly doesn't stand out IMO. Plus it's not like it hasn't had it's share of issues over the years.
As for the oil issue, dino oil is used. Up until this oil change I'd get it changed between 3-5k miles depending on how fast my wife put the miles on. Now the maintenance program has changed to 7500 oil changes from now on per the fleet maintenance program.
When it was 2 quarts low last month, it had 3k on the oil change. I've noticed it has used a 1/2 qt. between oil changes from time to time, but this was the first time it's ever used more than a qt. I'll be keeping my eye on it to see if something is up.
Now that's funny! :P
I'm confused. Haven't we heard this story many times about your wife's GP. But wasn't it a company provided car? Is it company owned? Or do you provide maintenance for the company car?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yeah, it's a company car. My wife (me) has to take it to an authorized service center for maintenance that is billed directly to the fleet company. They required oil changes be done every 3k miles, but last month my wife got a revised maintenance schedule that requires oil changes at every 7,500 miles. So while we don't pay for the maintenance, we do have to take it in and I do check the oil once an a while. I'm sure my wife's employer wouldn't be happy that she ruined an engine by not checking the oil. Checking the oil is even more important now on a 7,500 interval.
I wonder how many people routinely check their oil? I'd bet most people don't.
I don't know what happened to the oil. It does leak a bit on the garage floor, but nothing to indicate a major leak. It's used a 1/2 qt or so between oil changes, but that's not a big deal. I was just shocked to check the oil one day and hardly any oil showed on the dip stick
To bad Ford let that car die on the vine. Those were nice cars when introduced in '92 (actually '91 as a '92 model). Yeah, it's received some updates along the way, but they've been far from what's been required to keep the car relevant.
My dad had a '92 that he ordered in '91 that went nearly 230k miles relatively trouble free. That was impressive considering it had to endure 3 teenagers beating the hell out of it on a regular occasion.
Spent from 1967-2002 in the Detroit auto game, owned 53 cars, driven a few million miles, made a few $$$$s, and watch the whole game change..The new game is not a pretty picture, so we will let you folks see if the new game fits your "living style"..Having spent 2yrs as a VP of Marketing & Sales for a Japanese OEM mfgr located in Battle Creek, Mich early 80s, I found out they aren't really fun people and are "cheap"..I decided life was too short to play their silly games..so I spent the balance of my career as a self-employed commisioned rep and my life was under my control..All one needed then was a phone, computer, and a fax., yes,also an address to receive your commission checks..Didn't have any Asian auto guys on my schedule, made 1 call on Honda in Marysville, Ohio, asked to quote on the forged 4-banger cranks, and a suspension part, I declined the opportunity..been there and done that, realizing their end game..My source was already making forged V-8 cranks plus V-8 & V-6 outboard cranks on 4k & 6k ton forging presses..
Somebody on this discussion mentioned a Porsche mid-50s racing engine and their friend suffered a failure of a critical component, that would have been the DOHC-4cyl Carrera...Had a 58 & 59 Porsche Super Coupes, great trouble free cars, bought new at factory, sold 58 w/22k in Germany ,and bought the 59 back to the states, sold it around 36k mi, and broke even on the Porsche party..Cost new was $2,750 and the only option I added to the 59 was Koni Shocks for an upcharge of $15.00..
Now 3.8 GM engines, in various cars, little on the drony side, noisy, but 100% reliable..The S/C Pontiac w/SLP, catback exhaust is fun, noisy and thristy. Ran a 94 Buick 111k--engine never touched except for oil chages and filters, 92 Regal GS went 95k, no touchy..Great engine, but not high-tech, GM pumped 35m of those babies while they were paying the UAW $75.00/hr just to slap the cars together..
Wait till Obama gets the Asian transplants organized with a little Socialist flare of the UAW and whatever gang he can force the offshore guys to accept..THe game has changed for the American family, so don't complain if you can't have the Cake with your Asian car..
Change has been happening for all of our 200+ years of existence. Better get used to it.
he $30.00 an hour savings in producing a car goes right back to Asia,
Perhaps you should brush up on your economics, since most of the economic value of local production stays in the country of production.
the Asians are allowed tax-breaks until the end of time.
Don't you think $60Billion for GM alone is a lot more than tax breaks till the end of time?
Sez you, gramps! :P
Well it could be worse. You could be driving a late model Lucerne with a 3800 that is over a second slower 0-60 than a 4.6 powered Crown Vic and you'd have to listen to that v6 groaning for mercy on top of it.
Are you SURE you're not a Human Resources Dept. employee? You know...the ones that say all change is for the better!
While this may be true, unfortunately the data you show has a bigger explanation as to why the market share slipped for GM, F, and C. At the beginning of the chart, where the market share was high, US sales of trucks and suv's were at an all time high (over 50% of the entire market), and that has historically been their forte'. Where the lines begin their major shift towards intersecting coincides with $4/gal gas, and NOT with a gap in quality, which, according to your beloved CR, has been there all along.
I don't think they have that information, just the name and address of a person that bought car X, model Y, brand new. 3 years from now they may send you another survey asking your thoughts on that car, IF you still own it. They have no idea whether or not you still do.
GM and Chrysler are a few years behind were Ford is now!
THAT, nowadays seems to be the question everybody ignores. In that case, the "local" benefit does translate into an national benefit, as those were jobs that did not exist before, and now do. But if state A entices a company to move there from state B, there is zero gain. And if we keep allowing our companies to just ship jobs out of the country, then everybody loses.
Wait, just let me put my teeth in and find my cane and walker, and I will argue this with you........................ :P
I've recently been researching one year old Lincoln MKSs, with the a/c driver's and passenger seats, actually a guised up Taurus. You know anything of them? Are they good cars? I'm seriously considering going back to a domestic (stopped back in '98), now that their reliability is getting better. My SIL is an ASE certified Ford mech and he says they just keep getting better.
Not all change is for the better. But all change is inevitable. :surprise:
Nah, GM quality blew away all competition for the last 30 years.
Let's take your result. It all happened because of the price of gas? Well, either way, they blew it. Gas wasn't going back to $0.30 per gallon ever again. Head in the sand!
No gap in quality for GM. It's all an aborition!
CR didn't go bankrupt and the cars AND trucks they rated higher succeeded while gas was the beauty that killed the GM beast. Yep, I saw that movie!
Gas is what caused the profit bleeding also. Gas caused the cost of mfg. to skyrocket also. If it weren't for the price of gas....
Regards,
OW
So, we should WANT Hyundai, Honda and Toyota to produce as many of their market - leading products in the U.S.A.
God knows the 3 domestics let the baby out with the bathwater.
Regards,
OW
Currently driving an '07 RAV4 and its lack of refinement, cheesy interior and fragile, non-clearcoated SuperWhite paint make this my first and last Toyota. Even though it's been trouble free, by today's standards, it's a mediocre vehicle.
Definition of a US-made vehicle - It's sold by Ford, GM, and, maybe, Chrysler [what's with the Fiat connection?]. Why? Because the profits from those sales stay here in America. It's too bad all those transplant factories have foreign logos on their gates, but Toyota, et.al. did us all a big favor in raising the quality bar for all manufacturers.
I'm just saying.....
Nope. Not by a long shot.
Those profits can be invested anywhere. And, I doubt very much that the Big-3 management feels any "obligation" to invest in America. If they did, then why did they move so much production out of the country?
I don't think they have that information, just the name and address of a person that bought car X, model Y, brand new. 3 years from now they may send you another survey asking your thoughts on that car, IF you still own it. They have no idea whether or not you still do.
That was my point all along.
For someone to think that any survey company can simply "fill in the blanks" with data they already have on hand (to supplement those who do not respond in a survey) really shows just how little they understand about the difficulty in getting meaningful, accurate data and results.
Actually, that's the police version, which is available to the public under the guise of "trailering package" or something like that. Dual exhaust, better tires and rims, beefier sway bar, and a quicker axle ratio go along with that 239 hp. In standard form, I think the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis only puts out 224 hp.
FWIW, torque is around 275 ft-lb with the 224 hp version. Not sure what it is with the 239, but probably not much different. Usually a dual exhaust will bump up your hp, and might give you a broader hp and torque curve, but probably wouldn't do anything to actually boost the peak torque.
Of late, the Crown Vic, as a police cruiser, has been coming up short in the performance department. Despite having a 4.6 V-8, it really doesn't do any better than a Charger with the 3.5 or an Impala with the 3.9. And a Hemi Charger blows it away. However, it's still a durable workhorse that you can abuse the hell out of, and is fairly cheap to fix when it does break. And, as the old saying goes, you might be able to outrun a police cruiser, but you can't outrun the radio! (unless you're close enough to the state line, I guess
They have access to state registration data showing whether you still own license plates for that car and if you transferred the plate to a new vehicle.
They have access to the state title data showing if you still own the vehicle or if it has been transferred to a dealer/new owner. this is what CarFax and the other company use to help track a vehicle.
>That was my point all along.
>For someone to think that any survey company can simply "fill in the blanks" with data they already have on hand
If someone thinks all that info about you from various forms you have filled in online, data from credit applications, the three (is there a fourth now?) credit tracking companies, and other public and private records disappears, they should try googling their own name. Then try 411.com, switchboard.com. You'll get all kinds of offers from companies willing to share the data they have aggreggated about you.
Checking for a James Smith in Dayton, I got this:
http://www.peoplefinders.com/checkout/offer.aspx?type=people-name&item-id=679515- 791&item-count=99&fn=James&mn=&ln=Smith&city=Dayton&state=OH&searchtype=people-n- ame
It also offers:
Aliases & Maiden Names
Misdemeanors & Felonies
Up to a 40-year Address History
Phone Numbers
Age & Date of Birth
Property Ownership
Marriages & Divorces
Bankruptcies
Neighbors & Possible Relatives
And other useful information
And earlier screen offered court records, criminal records, and public records.
Better sources are available for finding someone than these; these are for the general public. Private investigators will learn a lot about someone. E.g., I tried to find someone I knew 30-35 years ago. I found he had been in court many times suing and being sued. He had filed bankruptcy. He had several driving violations. This I found from public records without paying any company $40.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's only marginally better than my Expediton. To bad the 5.4 won't fit under the hood. It would probably wouldn't have cost to much to put it under the hood with the 6 speed trans. That would have livened it up a bit and would probably get better fuel economy too.
But, the CV and GM's fate were sealed along time ago. It was a nice car in it's day, but those days are gone.