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Here's where I start to sound like those guys who complain that the "good old days" were better than today...that U2 "used to be good"...things like that.
My Swift GT is cool because it's small, lightweight (1,800 lbs), cheap to maintain, and fun to drive. The new one is considerably heavier...I'm all about the power-to-weight and keeping the weight to a minimum is key.
Your point is well-taken but I think it's misplaced. Each generation of most vehicles grows. Each generation of Civic, for example, has become larger and more powerful than the previous one in order to become more vehicle than the one it replaces. This is different than saying "subcompacts can't compete without getting larger."
Honda, Nissan, and Toyota all noticed that their growing small cars left a vacant spot in their lineups so they added the Fit, Versa, and Yaris below their formerly subcompact Civic, Sentra, and Corolla. As they fill in all of their niches, this growth will slow or stop, just as it has in the established Big3.
Vehicles like the Mini, fortwo, and the like can remain small by adding models around them. Making a larger "Mini" or fortwo doesn't make much sense but adding a "Maxi" or a forfour (I know...both did exist) would compliment the smaller vehicles.
I have been to Europe as well. Not Italy and I do find their choices somewhat refreshing. I found it quite ironic standing at a corner by the British Museum with a Smart at the light in a obvious effort to save fuel while a Ferrari sat right behind it reving its big motor to give us all a show of sound. But I remember when we did have the choices many have suggested. I once even owned a NSU Prince and had friends with English Fords and a Saab Sonic. But while those cars seems to do well in Europe they simply couldn't muster the support in the US to survive. Even my friends with the origional Mini would have to go to Canada for parts once they were driven from our shores.
My take on the whole issue is that the Civic, Corolla, and the Sentra are about as small as the American consumer will accept on any mass scale. After 30 years the scale of the consumer has pretty well settled on Accord/Camry sized cars. entry level seems to be Corolla/Civic. Unless Sub Compacts can offer a lot better pricing or considerably better fuel mileage I can't see them winning any great number of converts. They will always have their advocates I realize but I never expect them to reach 15 percent of the market. All I can do is sit back and wait.
Mass is a factor, in that momentum is greater for a more massive vehicle than a lighter one, and that energy has to be dissipated. Simply put: would you rather roll 3 times or 5 times?
It's the LIGHT cars with the high center of gravity that most often roll.
It's the center of gravity vs the "stance", (wheelbase and track) that determines the inclination to roll. The great Pyramids have a high center of gravity, but they rarely roll due to their wide track. :P
Weight can be a factor, (and this is a reach), in that a high-mounted load will have a greater impact on the center of gravity of a light weight vehicle than a heavy one.
Now if you want to talk about buffeting in sidewinds, THERE heavier is an advantage!
james
Doing some rough estimates (thanks, Google), it looks like the COG would be a little lower than 1/4 of the way up...
Maybe, if you propped it up on a frame with 4 wheels?
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They found the big 15 passenger vans were surprisingly tippy, because the test work was done without all those passengers in place. Once they added 15 bodies, high up, even these heavy vehicles proved to be quite rollable :surprise:
The Tercel and Starlet were added after a few generations of Corollas had been on sale in the US..and filled the gap at the bottom of the lineup as the Corolla grew.
1/4 of the way up a 482 foot pyramid = 120+ feet. Higher CG than an Explorer, I'd have to say. Yep, it's all relative. Just think how tippy those things would be if they didn't have the "Wide-track Pontiac" base! :surprise:
james
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Boy, you're good, if I did my math right it's about 20% of the way up...
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I'm not sure how much cachet Toyota thought would rub off on the Tercel by cramming Corolla in there.
I'll stick with the larger and heavier cars.
The Samurai is still far more "tippy", probably because it is so narrow.
To calculate the SSF (static stability factory), they used width, COG (estimated), and weight.
Of course that's static. They really should measure it dynamically. I doubt an Escape would beat an Expedition, though.
I'm not sure how much cachet Toyota thought would rub off on the Tercel by cramming Corolla in there.
It wasn't so much "cachet" as it was government regulations. Some regulations are easier to get through if you use a carryover nameplate. Ever notice that the Toyota Solara is, technically, the Toyota CAMRY Solara...and the Nissan Altima began life as the Nissan STANZA Altima. Similar ideas probably came with the Honda Civic CRX, Toyota Celica Supra, Datsun 810 Maxima, and the like.
But the #1 title didn't come until 1997, so I guess Toyota was that calculating.
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080104/FREE/524399880/1528/- newsletter01
What with Yaris, Versa, Fit, and Aveo, the little subcompact segment with just four models matched sales for all of VW including Audi for the year! :-)
Which means they also topped sales for all of Subaru by quite a bit.
Thrown in Mini if you like - I didn't check their numbers, but I assume they managed to move 20K or so as they have been doing in past years...their sales will increase when the Clubman arrives, I am sure.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Remember its wheelbase is unchanged since 1998, more than a decade, and the new one will debut at NAIAS this year and appear in dealers soon after.
Also, it's their #2 seller in volume.
Centripetal force is a rotational force. Whiplash is a function of poor head restraint design, not force. Race cars weigh much less than passenger cars and crash at much higher speeds, yet the drivers are fine. Further, in the crash research I have been involved in, "whiplash" has yet to be a cause of death. The most common cause has been ejection/seatbelt not fastened.
A vehicle is going from 35 mph to 0 mpg in a matter of feet. The greater the mass, the more inertia the vehicle needs to absorb. The more the vehicle absorbs, the more that gets passed on to the occupants of the vehicle. Thats why cars have crumple zones, the idea is to absorb as much force as possible (it takes a LOT of energy to bend metal) before it reaches the passenger compartment.
I'll stick with the larger and heavier cars.
Where you lack the crash avoidance to avoid the collision in the first place.
I wouldn't say that it counts in every instance. A lot of ditches around here are deep enough that if a car goes in at a direct enough angle it will naturally end up on its front end.
Yeah, we just disagree there, either its on its wheels or its not. If its not, its a roll. Whether that is caused by a slip or a trip is a different issue. Cars typically require a trip, where as SUVs and other high profiles just require a slip.
One thing we can be happy with is the death and injury rate per miles driven and per population is the lowest it has been since 1994. So vehicles in general are safer than they have ever been. 1.42 per 100 million vehicle miles traveled is pretty good. Rollovers and head on accidents not withstanding.
When Honda finally ramped up production of the Fit the last 4 months, sales really shot up. I expect it will sell at least 50% better in '08 than it did in '07 (as long as they can maintain the new production level). At which point it will handily outsell Aura along with all the other subcompacts. :-P
And Yaris might see a sales bump in '08 too, as the new Corolla arrives in February, and we will probably consequently see real-world transaction prices for that model go up, nudging more buyers towards Yaris.
And how's this for a statistic? Aveo was the Chevy car model with the highest year-over-year sales increase in '07!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And what percent of total sales does that represent? All I see in a Versa Hatchback is a Sentra sized vehicle with a hatchback. I don't see a sub compact that much smaller than what we already have and I don't see another small 108 HP entry level car. The Versa is so close to the Sentra I size and weight I don't see anything new there. The fuel mileage is about the same even if the city mileage is a bit better for the Versa highway mileage is listed as the same on Edmunds. The base price for the Sentra is even pretty close and of course you have the advantage of being able to order a Se-r spec V if you need more scoot. So just what makes the Sub Compact Versa so different from what we had already? Remember in the beginning I said Civic and Corolla sized vehicles are about as small as Americans seem to like in any real great numbers.
If we look at the Civic the base price is $14,819 with a Invoice of 13,800 or so? I get a car everyone trusts. It gets 26-34 Mpg and it has 140 HP with a 128 Pft of torque. The Fit is 21 inches shorter and has a WB 8 inches shorter but it is only a bit less than 100 pounds lighter and only has 109 HP. Plus it prices out at $13,900 and an invoice of 13, 400 or so. It once again get 28-34 MPG so just what are the major differences between what we already had and they are now offering us?
In dog show they couldn't even cover the spread between standard and miniture to distinguish the breed. Only the Mini and the Smart qualify as new sub compacts in the truest meaning of the word. Everything else is simply a different skin on the same horse.
To jump from a base Accord to a base Civic is 4 MPG city and 3 MPG highway and an additional 37 HP at a cost of $5,000.00. If sub compacts are to make an impression on the consumer they should offer something better in relation to the next step up. As they stand today they simply don't offer that much. :confuse:
The Versa is smaller than the Sentra...significantly enough. It uses a larger engine than any of the competition as well.
According to the standard definition for a subcompact (the same measurement that's been used for over 30 years), the Chevrolet Aveo5, Honda Civic Coupe, Mini Cooper, Nissan Altima Coupe, Scion tC and xD, Suzuki SX4, and Toyota Yaris hatchback are all subcompacts (between 85 and 99 cubic feet of interior and trunk space). The Smart falls into a seperate category of "two seaters."
As I pointed out earlier when Scion first introduced the xA and xB the problem was HP more than anything else, well and how ugly the xB was but that is another story. Anyway Scion solved the problem. The tC was always a bit bigger than the xA and out sold it from almost day one. Now Scion has no sub compact with 108 HP. They dropped the cars I felt the buying public would reject for one of the two reasons I have listed before. I will freely admit I don't understand the xB and why it still sells. I guess I never will. The new one looks French enough to have a cloth top.
In recent years, the restylings that most midsized cars have gone through, with more rounded off rumps, has cut into trunk volume. The Camry dropped from 17 cubic feet to 15 with its 2007 redesign. I had initially heard that the Altima had 18 cubic feet, but the EPA rates it at 15, which is down from the 16 that the '06 model had. The 2008 Accord, which actually qualifies as a full-sized car if you don't get the sunroof, has a 14 cubic foot trunk, which, I believe, is what the '03-07 had. The Sebring/Avenger, which look like they bulked up quite a bit with the '07 redesign, saw their trunks shrink from 16 to 13 cubic feet.
With these trends, subcompacts might become more desireable alternatives simply by way of larger cars becoming less versatile!
As daily tansport they are heavily outnumbered by Nissan Micra, Honda Jazz (Fit), Citroen C1 and C2, Toyota Yaris, Skoda Fabia, MINI and all the many many others.
Hard to see how it will stay in production as it's mpg figures aren't exactly brilliant and the CO2 emmissions are poor relative to size. It's CO2 figures are 112 - 116 g/km. Compare this to a Toyota Yaris 1.4 diesel, (90 bhp), at 119 g/km and it starts to look not good. Then think about the VW Polo 1.4 TDi Bluemotion (80bhp) at 99 g/km. :shades: Not the most able kid on the block is it ? :lemon:
Just to get some perspective, here are CO2 figures for a few other cars; all in g/km :
Bentley Conti GT = 410, Audi A6 3.0 TDi = 211, Chrysler 300C 3.5 V6 = 262 (3.6 V6 CRD = 215), BMW 335D Auto = 200, Ferrari F430 = 420, Ford Focus 2.0 Zetec = 170 (2.0 TDCi = 148).
Enough, already.
Four Wheels for the Masses: The $2,500 Car (NY Times)
Edit - it will do well in the U.S., though, because it lacks competition for the next few years, much like how the Mini originally did.
The VW Polo(whatever they are calling their smallest car then) when it comes over o the U.S. in a couple of years is going to blow the market wide open. TDI and 70-80mpg highway will get a lot of people wondering why a Prius is all of a sudden such a big deal.
Also, I wonder if VW could even sell a Polo for any less than a Rabbit. Add to that the extra cost of a diesel engine.
For a Smart we're talking, what, $13-15k? For a Polo TDI I can imagine $17-18k.
You want wheels with that car, that'll be extra...
The Excel started at about $5 grand. Again, that was a 4 speed manual with vinyl seats and no side mirror on the passenger side.
Then again, a base Civic or Sentra lacked those items at the time also.
Is it just me or does the Tata hood ornament look a lot like the Toyota emblem?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There's always a possibility that this will change in future. For now who can say, but the possibility is there!
About VW, you're absolutely correct. VW blew it, BIG time.
The Nano would have to be tweaked for the U.S. market, obviously, but if it's a success elsewhere in the world I do think it would make its way here. It would give Tata a foothold into this marketplace, for sure. Time will tell, mate. I look forward to seeing road tests of this small critter soon, hopefully. Perhaps Tata won't make the same mistakes the Yugo did way back in the day.
Peace!<-AladdinSane- :shades:
I would end up weighing two tons and costing 20 grand.
I would end up weighing two tons and costing 20 grand.
Cynical ? Yes. True ? Absolutely. Gave me a laugh, thank you. However, why would you end up weighing two tons ? Lots of Indian food, perhaps ?
Oops, yeah, I love that curry! MMMmmm!
I like my road cars and SUVs big but I have no problem with a small sports car. My favorites were the Bug Eye sprite and even the 124 Spyder I had. I totally understand the small commuter or for places that need them the mid sized SUVs like the Forester. While I didn't need a sub compact when I was commuting I realized the value of the old rabbit diesel. Even back then close to 50 MPG was a pretty good return for the sacrifice of a pretty slow car. The Metro was a good effort and gave fuel mileage close to 50 MPG. So my problem with the new sub compacts is they are too heavy, not that sub compact and don't give you the same value for your dollar as even the old Rabbit diesel or the Metro with the less than 9k out the door price. 20 years after the VW diesel rabbit you expect more for your money. And you expect better fuel mileage. I simply can't see why they aren't getting 50 to 60 MPG in the new sub compacts when they were getting close to 50 Highway 20 years ago. Unless it is simply that the consumer doesn't care all that much.
My '91 Escort GT weighed around 2300 lbs, and was bigger. Though it had far less safety gear.
For a while in college I had a Chevy Sprint that weighed about 1800 lbs.
Now that was light.
It felt like a tin can, though. My wife (girlfriend at the time) refused to ride in it.
Two reasons - safety (more stars requires more steel) and performance (0-60 in 7-8 sec is not unusual now, would have been phenomenal in 1990). So MPGs get outweighed by IIHS and MPHs!