What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

ateixeira · December 2008

CAFE in particular failed miserably. What it did was push people in to trucks instead of cars, which were given a far more lenient standard. At one point trucks outsold cars.

Not only that, but suddenly everything became a truck - PT Cruisers, MPVs, even Subaru Outback sedans.

To make matters worse, the exception for trucks was intended to give work/fleet vehicles a pass, not personal use vehicles. So even a Suburban used as a family car should have counted as under the CAFE car averages, because it was not a business-owned fleet vehicle.

boaz47 · December 2008

I agree but you will still see and hear people that look to the government to solve all problems making impassioned excuses for CAFE and CARB. We should have small cars that could get a lot better mileage than what we have been offered but when all you have to do is meet some government standard why bother. I realize we might have had more Hummer like vehicles without CAFE but I am sure we would have had more small cars getting 60 and 70 MPG without it as well. Without CAFE I doubt if Honda, Subaru, or Nissan would have ever made a SUV. CAFE encouraged them to take a leap they might never have made without it. This is from a man that likes SUVs and Full size Pickups much more than their smaller counterparts. I like vehicles that can do real work like towing and hauling while providing a bit of comfort and isolation from the road.

Still my biggest beef with the "new" subcompacts is they aren't new and many aren't sub. They are the same old sub compacts that have become old in other parts of the world. They answered a problem in Asia or Europe that doesn't translate to US as well as it should.

ateixeira · December 2008

I hear the new systems will have a sliding scale according to length and wheelbase, things like that.

All that will do is make cars bigger.

They should just offer lower tax rates for small engines. Encourage economy, not wastefullness.

boaz47 · December 2008

How about letting the market decide? What if they simply made a few small cars and sold them for under 10k? Once that has been done couldn't we see what the people bought and let them adjust for the consumers preferences? I don't believe the American consumer hates small cars I only think they question the cost compared to what you get. A small boat costs only a fraction of what a large boat costs. A small plane costs only a portion of what a big plane costs. The same is true for houses, TV sets any number of things. But for some reason in cars they try to get almost as much for a sub compact as they do for a compact or even some bigger cars. I don't think we have to bribe anyone to buy a small car I think we only need to use the successful model Honda and Toyota used to introduce small cars into the market on the 60s and 70s. Sell them at a price that is a fraction of what a full sized car and people will snap them up as they did when imports first started gaining popularity in thins country. There were no tax breaks on early CVCC or early Civics. There were no tax breaks for early VW Bugs or Corollas. People bought them because they were less expensive and cheap to run.

We are a stubborn people and when they try to force us into one direction we simply move in another. That is why we got SUVs and People using a full sized truck as their main transportation in the first place.

CAFE tries to address the symptoms not the disease. Toss it out and let the manufacturers face their customers head on. Try it and see if it works and maybe we will have as many small cars as we did before CAFE. I remember when we had Renault, Fiat, Nissan, VW, Toyota, Honda, MG, TR, Cooper and any number of other small cars to choose from and it was the government that killed them. I simply don't think either the government of the manufacturers have bothered to see what the people want. They simply seem to think they know what we need.

ateixeira · December 2008

It's tougher today vs. in the 70s (when the CVCC was a hit) because of things like airbags and safety requirements. They cost a fixed amount, but that amount represents a much higher % of your overall costs when you're talking about an economy car.

Example: say the air bags cost $500, just to use a round number. On a Versa, that means 5% of the cost you pay is due to the air bag.

On a $100,000 luxury car, that same air bag represents an insignificant 0.5% of the overall cost.

So nowadays smaller cars carry that handicap. They're not much cheaper than mid-sized cars. A Fit is only a few grand less than a Civic. Same from Civic to Accord.

It's not like TV sets, where 40" costs a certain amount and 46" doubles the price. 52" is triple or more.

boaz47 · December 2008

I am not sure I believe sub compacts cost as much to build as they say nor that parts cost as much. For instance what makes a 30k SUV so profitable that even Porsche decided to build one? If they cost anything like 30K they would return such a high profit. So if they pad the books on SUVs and Trucks why should I believe they aren't padding the books on sub compacts. My brother was in the boating industry working for Bayliner. Once you go from 19 feet to 22 feet the price jumps quite a bunch. Go to 30 feet and the price jumps again. In sail boats it is worse. Motorcycles are the same. A 250 cost significantly less than a 500 and that 500 is less than a 1000 cc bike and so forth. The realization has to hit the auto industry somewhere that they can not make up a short fall in unit prices by increasing the entry level cost of a Sub Compact. People will simply hold on to their old cars longer and much like decreasing our use of oil the prices will have to drop. Like I said Honda introduced the American public to their cars by offering a price that was hard to resist. Cars like the Smart simply don't offer that kind of deal.

ateixeira · December 2008

I agree on the Smart - not a very good deal. Mercedes probably is trying to make a profit.

I don't think price reflects costs very well, too. Why is the Venza more expensive than the bigger Sienna, for instance? Demand is why.

I doubt Toyota makes a profit on a basic Yaris at $11k, but it does bring in young buyers (college kids especially) and those will likely become Camry or even Lexus customers after they graduate.

Brand loyalty ain't what it used to be, but I do think that a college kid that got 250,000 miles out of a Tercel way back when is very, very likely to buy more Toyotas later in life.

stever · December 2008

I drove a new '82 Tercel for 17 years, but passed on a Sienna for a Quest in '98. I have test driven a Matrix and xD in the last couple of months but I know they don't make them like my old Tercel. Lexus never grabbed me. Good memories of the Tercel, but they gotta make the sale every time.

ateixeira · December 2008

Fair enough...but you do keep going back to test drive Toyotas. I mean, they seem to be given a chance to earn your business again and again.

I had a great experience with a Forester and looked hard at the Tribeca even though I knew what I really needed was a minivan.

stever · December 2008

True, and I was pleased to rent a Grand Caravan this summer to compare it to my old Voyager days. Looked at a Forester recently too. I even went to a Honda dealer after an awful experience in '98 trying to buy an Odyssey.

Fortunately the new car bug has faded a bit with my wife, although another zero percent deal may get her attention again.

Back to subcompacts, have I complained recently how expensive those little cars are? The Fit Sport penciled out for $18 OTD with tax.

ateixeira · December 2008

I've seen prices approach $20k with Navi.

Mazda3 will offer Navi for $500, now that's more like it.

I hope Mazda offers the hatch with the 2.0l engine. Add a Scion tC-like glass roof and I'd actually consider one as my city car.

I will probably end up with another Miata, though. Prices have crept down a little, but I'm still waiting for the steep discounts to appear.

stever · December 2008

I've seen prices approach $20k with Navi.

Right - I'm still happy with my $99 portable nav/gps so I just priced out a manual Sport. I should go price used Miatas again - freezing weather has arrived. :shades:

ateixeira · December 2008

06s usually end up around $17-18k.

Thing is, wholesale has dropped to $11-12k for the higher mile ones, so you just KNOW those prices are gonna tumble when it gets cold.

I looked last year and saw some for $16k. Then in the summer they were up, and the cheapest were $16-17k, so they actually went up in value with the warm weather.

They'll go down again, because of the cold, a year of aging, plus a bad market.

boaz47 · December 2008

20k for a Fit???? Not even if it got me out of bed and dressed me. There is simply no excuse for 20k Sub compacts. There are far too many other cars that come equipped just fine in larger sizes for 20k. Maybe if gas drops to $1.50 a gallon they will get back to reasonable prices for mini cars.

stever · December 2008

The Fits are pricey. The xDs are pure priced around $15k and the Versa is easily had for $14k or less. The base Versa is much less.

Shoot, I only paid ~$19k for my first house. That was 1974, but still, it's still standing last I checked. (And Zillow says it's worth $165k).

thegraduate · December 2008

The Fits are pricey. The xDs are pure priced around $15k and the Versa is easily had for $14k or less. The base Versa is much less.

Shoot, I only paid ~$19k for my first house. That was 1974, but still, it's still standing last I checked. (And Zillow says it's worth $165k).
Yeah, but does your house have cruise control?

stever · December 2008

The current one does - that first one was all manual, right down to the fireplace and the orange shag rug.

imidazol97 · December 2008

>the orange shag rug

1974 and orange shag rugs. Oh that brings back memories.

snakeweasel · December 2008

1974 and orange shag rugs. Oh that brings back memories.

More like nightmares.

tifighter · January 2009

Another subcompact will enter the USA soon, it seems...

texases · January 2009

Probably about the size of the original Rabbit. I had to laugh, it's to help VW TRIPLE its US sales in the next 10 years...yeah, right!

guss · January 2009

How many times have we heard VW plans to increase their sales only to end up losing sales.

I like the Polo, hopefully the TDI will make it over here.

explorerx4 · January 2009

ford fiesta

nippononly · January 2009

Ditto that. 80 mpg sounds good to me. :-)

stever · January 2009

Smart Exceeds Sales Expectations, Could Face Tougher 2009

The Fiat Group Wish List

and another Polo story:

At Long Last, Volkswagen Plans To Bring Its Fuel-Sipping Polo Subcompact to U.S.

texases · January 2009

Good luck to Fiat and Chrysler. I thought most Fiats don't meet US regs, including the 500 :confuse:

stever · January 2009

The 500 isn't that much smaller than the MINI, and with the right drive train, maybe it could pass muster here.

plekto · January 2009

Yes, but the Fiat is Mini cute/appealing to people, seats 4, and is less money. The Smart is going to be facing the same problems it does in Europe soon.

That said, the Polo with the TDI engine gets well over 60mpg.

ateixeira · February 2009

And it might actually be fun.

I hope they don't de-content it too much to get the price way down.

They should aim squarely for the Honda Fit, and take the premium compact end of the segment.

alltorque · February 2009

Fiat 500 is now gaining popularity here in U.K. It really is a looker in an updated Cinquecento sort of way - all the same styling clues but with added room, (and, it is hoped, reliability. Those little air-cooled motors didn't like rain/damp). It's no load carrier but more practical than a Smart. You can at least carry three other people. In size it is smaller than Mini. Lengths are, (in metres) :

F 500 : 3.55

Mini : 3.70

Jazz : 3.83

The Jazz just plain outperforms the other two in interior space/useability and the 500 just isn't up to challenging it, nor is it designed to; the Jazz just uses every cubic inch in the cabin, (or so my wife says of hers).

Would be hard to de-spec the F500, they'd have to leave off the doors or something. Very nice little car but you'd buy one more for "style" than anything else; but "style" it has in bucketloads. Fiat recently launched the "Abarth" version here. 150bhp and tweaked, plus lots of go-faster goodies, (you know, body stripes, scorpion decals etc - that kind of go-faster). Now that will be a blast; style and fun in one small package. :shades:

nippononly · February 2009

I'm actually beginning to have some hope that the premium compact/subcompact segment may take off in the next few years. There are at least 3 major automakers talking about offering models in that vein in the next 2 years, including VW, Chrysler with Fiat's help, and Toyota. And of course, we already have Mini, and the Fit aint too bad... ;-)

Will be interested to see how dressed up the Beat will be when it arrives, and what its performance will be like.

boaz47 · February 2009

When the world economy was doing good wasn't Fiat bleeding red ink like a whale speared by a Japanese ship? I like Italian cars but never have they been considered dependable enough for most people here. The only upside I could see is they would have a ready built distributership connected with Chrysler. Still Any new car release in 2009 and maybe even 2010 will be a hard sell unless it is Cheap. Cost out the door is going to be the number one consideration for the next few years and unless they can undercut the Koreans and be at least as dependable it will be a big risk to spend the money to meet US standards.

nippononly · February 2009

Welllll......if you look at the cheapest subcompacts on the market, you usually find they are not the best-selling. So price is important, but maybe not the whole story in a segment where everything is priced fairly close together.

But I was thinking more of premium subcompacts - superlative performance or features or both. Models like the Abarth that could be sold for prices as high as many compact cars. For now though, the Fiat talk is just talk, I agree.

alltorque · February 2009

I'd like a 500 Abarth as our 3rd car, (Volvo S60 + honda Jazz), but we really don't need a third car, so it's not going to happen.

Odd review last week on the new Ford Ka, which is their smallest offering; smaller than the Fiesta. Existing Ka is quirky and well-liked, (despite using the oldest pushrod engine of any European car). The new Ka is, stylistically, a baby Fiesta. The review I read absolutely slated the car as being a real backward step from the original, in all departments. Now all the other Fords in Europe; Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo, Galaxy are highly rated in their sectors and yet the Ka gets the thumbs down in a big way. Then the reviewer pointed out that the new Ka shares the same platform as the Fiat 500.............which is universally praised and loved...............so how can they have got it so wrong ?

Beats me but the Ford/Fiat tie-up info was interesting.

ateixeira · February 2009

The old Ka had a lot more character, and before anyone says it copied the New Beetle lets remember it came out first.

Fiesta could bring a hot model here, too. ST?

nippononly · March 2009

the latest-promised addition to the U.S. lineup of subs, expected to be here in 2 years or less? That's right, the Polo. The new one makes the old one look positively frumpy! Check out the gallery here:

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/03/geneva-2009-2010-volkswagen-polo/

And 62 mpg for the diesel! I don't know what a BlueMotion Polo will sticker at, but it will be on my watch list for sure. Will give the Fit hybrid (if that model makes it to fruition) a serious run for its money.

oregonboy · March 2009

Nice looking 5-door hatch.
I wonder what the little panels below the headlights are for?

No pics with the hatch open, but it looks like the tail-lights intrude into the opening.
Interior shots show a manual transmission (Woo-Hoo!) :shades:

ateixeira · March 2009

I don't like that new front end. Same with the new Golf.

Otherwise, bring it.

Problem is, it won't be any cheaper than the base Golf is now. They'll just move the Golf up in price and content to make room.

nippononly · March 2009

That's fine with me, Golfs base around $17,5 now, as does the Fit Sport. The Polo at that price will have a much better interior and better fuel economy than the Honda. Comparing the Polo to the Mini Cooper, it will be less expensive and again have better fuel economy, although the Mini will have better moves. Straight-line acceleration, however, should be very similar.

We are (I hope) gradually going to see the emergence of two subclasses: economy subcompacts and "premium" subcompacts. With Yaris/Versa/Aveo/Rio/Accent in the first group, and Polo/Fiesta/Fit/Mini in the latter. Imagine that! In less than a decade we have gone from pretty much NO choices to NINE! :-)

ateixeira · March 2009

I agree that would be a nice split segment.

Hey, I'm thiiiiiiiis close to picking up a new Miata, power retractable hard top.

Small = fun.

nippononly · March 2009

Oooo, I'm jealous. The PRHT is the only Miata I would have. Although considering my (ahem!) girth, I can't really fit in that car, so it's probably off the list for me. :-(

Of course, I just have to add: that's the really nice thing about all of today's minis (the Mini included) - lots of interior space for driver and passengers, despite the small outside dimensions.

ateixeira · March 2009

My 1993 was tight on legroom, but the new ones are OK.

I'm picking it up tonight, it's pretty much a done deal. I even have a backup out-the-door price just in case this falls through.

Stormy Blue Mica, PRHT, Touring model 6 speed manual, and of course I'm getting the Suspension package, with Bilstein shocks, 17" rims, lower profile tires, and most importantly a Torsen rear limited-slip diff!

I'm on Cloud 9! :shades:

nippononly · March 2009

Make that, extremely jealous!

andres3 · March 2009

The Toyota Corolla is still embarrassing the likes of Chevy Aveos and anything from Kia.

The Corolla is light years ahead of garbage like the Chevy Aveo. Corolla is more comparable to new Malibu than Aveo is to Corolla

GM is dead, dying, and over!

lilengineerboy · March 2009

The Toyota Corolla is still embarrassing the likes of Chevy Aveos and anything from Kia.

The Corolla is light years ahead of garbage like the Chevy Aveo. Corolla is more comparable to new Malibu than Aveo is to Corolla

Toyota Corolla Base Price Base Model: $15,350
Chevrolet Aveo Base Price Base Model: $12,645
Kia Rio Base Price Base Model: $12,145
or a 30% difference

Misguided anger aside, you should compare apples and apples.

nippononly · March 2009

Yes, rent a Yaris from a dealer. Quite a decent little car for $13,000. Better than a rental Aveo I had. I have only driven the Accent, between current Korean subcompacts. I was fairly impressed (given a sticker of $14,5), but then I DID drive the SE, which is the "sport" model with the huge rims.

lilengineerboy · March 2009

Yes, rent a Yaris from a dealer.

A few of my friends have Scion xAs and xBs, which are pretty much the same thing. I can't say I was too impressed either way. My friend was bragging about how inexpensive his xA was, but then bought a suspension kit and tires/wheels to make it drivable and by then the price was in Mazda3 territory, which seems better in every performance measure save fuel economy. Even Shiftright, who loved his xA needed a rear sway bar and tires. I don't see the Yaris as being an improvement.

The Accent I had as a rental recently seemed acceptable although I didn't have it over 45 mph. Even when it had 2 passengers it felt fine. I am pretty sure it was the base model, I don't think it had cruise or the power package.

The Aveo is cheap. Thats its claim to fame. Transaction prices are south of 5 digits. I would opt for a used car before something like that, but I am also more comfortable with doing my own maintenance.

nippononly · March 2009

I didn't say Yaris was bar none the best car on the roads today. It is an economy subcompact designed and built to a price. For $13,000 it is a decent drive, and it is a noticeably better car than the Aveo in many ways. That's all I was saying.

andre1969 · March 2009

Toyota Corolla Base Price Base Model: $15,350

Start adding options, and those Corollas can get expensive fast, too. Although I guess the same can be said of any car. One of my office mates briefly had a 2009 Corolla S, and I think he paid around $20K for it. IIRC, he said it MSRP'ed for around $22K. Now it was a nice car, with power windows, alloys, and a sunroof. But it didn't have power seats or leather, and I think it still just had the base engine.

lilengineerboy · March 2009

didn't say Yaris was bar none the best car on the roads today. It is an economy subcompact designed and built to a price. For $13,000 it is a decent drive, and it is a noticeably better car than the Aveo in many ways. That's all I was saying.

Is the Yaris really a 13,000 car or are actual transaction prices north or south of that? The Aveo is a 10,000 car as far as I can tell from the papers. I don't have a sense of that either way with the Toyota. Does Nissan still have the $9999 Versa?

What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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