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What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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Comments

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Mazda 2, Scion xD.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well, I was thinking of VOLUME automakers, but sure throw in the '2' and the xD. Even MORE of an argument for VW to bring their well-thought-of Polo to the U.S.....;-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I agree that it's puzzling why VW hasn't brought the Polo to the U.S., especially since its goal is to become the world's largest automaker.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I agree that it's puzzling why VW hasn't brought the Polo to the U.S., especially since its goal is to become the world's largest automaker.

    Might it have something to do with the costs involved in certifying the Polo in the US?

    How many units do you think VW can sell here in the States? Could they offer it at a price point under the Golf or Jetta S ($16K)?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    In fact,, I think they may officially be THE last...Versa, Yaris, Fit, Accent, Rio, Sonic, Spark, Fiesta, Fiat 500, VW ????

    Who did I forget?


    Subie, Volvo, Audi, none of these have subcompacts. Mazda is about to give up on the Mazda2 in the US (it was doomed anyway with the Mazda3 beating it in MPGs and all).
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Any of the cost factors you mentioned is possible, but how and why do the other companies manage to sell their B class cars in the U.S.?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Build in a cheap place, like Mexico.

    With a smaller car margins are crucial, in fact I bet most lose money.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I think the Polo is already built in Mexico.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Subie, Volvo, Audi, none of these have subcompacts

    Well like I said before, I was actually thinking of volume automakers when I first made the comment, and none of these are volume automakers. In fact, Mazda isn't either, but the 2 is a fun little car. If they are really thinking of dropping it, that's too bad....

    VW could sell the Polo under the base price of a Jetta, I bet. It IS made in Mexico....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Probably not that much cheaper, maybe just a grand or so.

    Plus, why lower transactions costs? It might cannibalize Golf sales.

    I'm speculating. It would actually be fun to sample a Polo GTI.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I'm speculating. It would actually be fun to sample a Polo GTI.

    Yeah, figure 160-180HP to compete with the new Fiesta ST.

    Those are hot hatches! And, figure 30-35 MPG highway as well.

    What's not to like?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Just mentioned in another thread that a Sonic SS would be fun, or a Fit Si. Small cars are nimble and with enough power they're a hoot to drive.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Just mentioned in another thread that a Sonic SS would be fun, or a Fit Si. Small cars are nimble and with enough power they're a hoot to drive.

    Would the 2.0L from the Civic fit in the Fit?

    (hmm, that doesn't look right when I type it)

    140HP might make the Fit quite the funster to drive.

    For the Sonic, are there chips available that would turn up the HP on the 1.4L turbo?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wonder if a 2l Fit would be too nose heavy?

    Speaking of heavy, the Sonic could be lighter, maybe a diet wouldn't hurt. They handed out the blueprints for the EcoTec to tuners, so I'm sure the turbo will accept a tune.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,433
    a Fit Si does sound like a smart idea. lower it, bigger wheels, tighten up the suspension, and stick in more power. Maybe not a 2.0l, but a higher strung 1.6 or 1.8? Honda used to be able to do those!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Even the Civic's base engine would be a big gain. I'm not sure what those engines weigh, though. Don't want a boat anchor out in front of the front axle, else you can't turn in quickly.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Well, Audi is part of VW, and therefore is a volume automaker. Subie is part owned by Toyota, same deal.

    I keep thinking how much fun a Mazda2 with a SkyActiv 2.0L engine would be, bwa ha ha. But that's actually the main reason they're dropping it: it doesn't get the FE of the 3, but is almost as expensive. They're not like Nissan and Toyota where they can build a subcompact cheap enough to be profitable here.

    It's hard, subcompacts are really city cars, they're about city FE and fitting into small streets and parking spaces. Outside of the cities they're out of their element, and we have too much mass transit in most of our cities to compete with. Plus much of US culture is highway-oriented, which favors compacts and midsizers over subcompacts, which are too small to get decent aerodynamics.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Too small to get decent aerodynamics? Huh?

    The car with the lowest cD of any production car is the last-gen Honda Insight, with a cD of 0.25. Oh, and yes, it's a subcompact.

    Subaru is 14% owned by Toyota, not a controlling or even a very INFLUENTIAL share of ownership. They may partner on some technologies and models like the BRZ, but that doesn't even come close to making tiny little Subaru a volume automaker.

    As for subcompacts being out of their element outside the cities, I drive mine between the Bay Area and Sacramento all the time, where it performs just fine and pulls low 40s for mpg now that it is more broken in.

    More to the point, it pulls 39 mpg as a running average, including all my local driving - just try to achieve that result in any of the supposedly 40-mpg cars out there....

    However, it would be nice if the subcompacts got powertrains as sophisticated as their compact and midsize brethren, which of course they don't because they are built to a price point. Too bad there aren't more like the Mini, but without the spotty reliability and the eye-searing interior.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited September 2012
    From the current online Automotive News...

    "The European subcompact isn't scheduled to come to the United States, but top management says the Polo could be engineered quickly to U.S. specifications if needed."

    How do you define "needed?"
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,433
    $6 gallon?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Yeah, too small. If you'll look, most subcompacts can't even reach 40 MPG, despite having smaller more fuel-miserly engines than compact cars (or even the exact SAME engine in the case of the Sonic/Cruze).

    Outside of the Accent/Rio cousins, there aren't any subcompacts that hit it until the modified Fiat 500 shows up. On the other hand, subcompacts generally get great city mileage, even compared to the class of 40 MPG compact cars. That's what they're designed for. There's nothing wrong with this, it's just that they're not always the best fit. Particularly on the highway...they can get by on the highway but I'd never suggest a regular highway driver buy a subcompact.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2012
    it would be nice if the subcompacts got powertrains as sophisticated as their compact and midsize brethren

    Some do.

    For example, it's funny that the Accent and Rio get DI, but the Elantra and Forte do not.

    The Sonic LT is a DI turbo, and the 1.8l Cruze doesn't have DI. Nor do some of the 2012 Malibus (2013 catches up).

    There are a few exceptions, at least.

    Insight cheats a little by being a 2 seater only. Tall hatches have aero issues with the roof that suddenly stops.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Good explanation!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    Insight cheats a little by being a 2 seater only. Tall hatches have aero issues with the roof that suddenly stops.

    Not only that, but a tall hatch is going to have more frontal/surface area to push through the wind. A car can have a low coefficient of drag, but it it still presents a big enough surface area to the wind, it might take more effort to move it than a car with a higher coefficient of drag, but less surface area.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    That's the big problem subcompacts have. In order to be tall enough to have enough room, they have to give up aerodynamics in order to fit 4 seats within a short wheelbase.

    That shot wheelbase is the key to a subcompact. It gives it maneuverability and parkability in cramped areas that a compact or midsize just can't fit into.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    A reporter is looking to talk with new owners of micro or subcompact cars (i.e. Chevy Spark, Scion iQ, Honda Fit, Mazda 2, Fiat 500, etc.) to learn how the experience has changed how they think about what they need in a car, and how they use their cars. If you fit this description, please respond to pr@edmunds.com with your preferred contact information by Friday, October 19, 2012.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    September 2012's 5 Best-Selling Subcompact Cars (Inside Line)

    Versa
    Sonic
    Fit
    Accent
    Fiat 500
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Versa does it with price, though. Aren't those $10,999 or something?

    500 sales have really picked up.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    No Yaris on the list. :-(
    (Not surprisingly)

    What is notable about that list is that the Fiesta isn't there. They brought out the Focus, which crosses over the Fiesta in price and has better fuel economy, not to mention good reviews, and I bet Fiesta sales just TANKED.

    Interesting to me that the 500 made the list but the Mini did not - better lease deals at Fiat? I have seen pretty good deals for the base models of both....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They split sales with the Scion iQ, so in a way those compete with each other.

    500 is cheaper than the Cooper, especially with incentives.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Around here, the base 500 and Mini both have $199/mo lease deals. The only difference is that the 500 is sign-and-drive, while the Mini wants about $2000 up-front.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,182
    Versa? Really?

    Can't say I like anything about them...

    Other than the Fit, most Fiestas are way above the price point of the cars on that list...

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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2012
    Well, they're bulletproof. Just ask Sneakers. He's got two of them now and drives them into the ground going to all those basketball games (never have a kid who's a sports star!).
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,182
    At least it's not a Caliber.. ;)

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  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    Dodge can make some real progress in the compact category. If I didn't already have a '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS I'd be really, really interested in the new Dodge Dart. Indeed.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • maxx4memaxx4me Member Posts: 1,340
    I don't understand the confusion. The Versa hatchback has adult room for the driver and front and rear passengers, not muppet leg room like the Fit and other highly touted vehicles. Headroom and visibility are also outstanding. Recent year models can be had with bluetooth and radio controls on the steering wheel, unlike again, the Fit which is a minimalist car that Honda forces you to buy expensive and an unnecessary navigation package before you can have bluetooth. Shoppers have figured it out, which is why you see so many of them on the road.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Technically, I sort of have 3(4) Versas. My daughter bought the 2007 from me and it has about 102,000 on it. Only issue we had with that one is due (I'm certain of this) to ethanol in the gas leading to more water (as a combustion by-product) in the exhaust, which cause a flange right in front of the muffler to rust out from the inside in 2009. Then we had a 2010 for about 90 days before a car stopped for deer in front of my wife, she stopped for that car, but the F-150 coming up behind her did not. Totaled the Versa, but the car did it's job and crumpled around the wife and she didn't have a scratch. The car was hit hard enough and bent to the point where the front seats were no longer in line with each other. So I'll give it good crash safety, at least in the type of crash we had. And we currently have a 2011 (wife's replacement) and 2012 in the driveway. About 60,000 on the '11 (as Steve said, basketball travel) and almost 16,000 on the 2012.

    As long as they keep making them in 6-speed manuals, I'm good to go! Oh yea, my only nit pick, and my kids agree with me on this... it either needs to be a 7-speed or just move each gear up slightly. First gear is good for about 10 feet before you need to go to 2nd, and it just feels like a 7th gear would work on the highway. But this is a minor nitpick for us.

    Interior room is really good. We've moved my daughter into college with one car having all her stuff and the two of us in. I think the most stuff I've ever put in was moving string orchestra instruments to a concert. I had two full-size double basses, three full-size cellos, and assorted violins and violas tucked in corners, along with a front seat passenger and all doors and hatches closed with nothing sticking out of any windows.

    Guess I'm Versa-tile :shades:
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Have you sat in the back of the Fit? It's surprising. I'm a big 6 footer, and after I adjust the driver's seat for myself, not only can I sit in the rear seat behind the driver but I can do so COMFORTABLY.

    If the car was *ahem* fitted out the way I wanted I'd consider it. But no auto climate control, MPGs aren't as good as the Mazda3, and it doesn't handle quite as well. Maybe the next redesign.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    I agree...given how tiny it is overall, the Fit's not bad inside. Too small for my tastes, but with the front seat adjusted all the way back for me (6'3"), I was still able to fit in back. However, the side curvature made me lean inward, and overall it had a claustrophobic feel about it.

    As for the Versa, one reason it might be selling well is that the recent restyle made it look like a much more expensive car than it is, IMO. However, I think it's just the sedan that was restyled and not the hatchback.

    I remember sitting in a hatchback Versa, and being impressed at the back seat. I'd say that if you need 4-passenger seating, the Versa's a better pick than the Fit. But if you value cargo space, the Fit seemed better suited in that regard.
  • maxx4memaxx4me Member Posts: 1,340
    I have sat in and crawled around every inch of the Fit. It is not as comfortable as the Versa by any stretch of the imagination. Foot positioning for the rear passengers is poor and the knee room is not as good as either the Versa Hatchback nor Elantra Touring. I have not driven a Fit but have driven the Versa and found it very smooth and cushioning on the road. Moreover, used Versas are much more competatively priced than Fits by a wide margin. While reaching the oil filter is more of a pain in the Versa and the rear seats don't collapse for a flat floor, and while it bothers me that it is assembled in Mexico and not rated as high in reliability as the Fit, I feel like I am getting much more for my money with the Versa hatchback. Honda simply needs to stop minimilizing its cars and forcing customers to pay a lot more for common options. If they haven't figured it out yet, they aren't the only ones with an H on the front of the grille any longer.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The Elantra Touring is a limo compared to anything smaller than a midsize. I know, I own one. Looking to get out of it, want one?

    The Fit and Versa have great legroom for compact cars. Not subcompact, COMPACT. The Focus's backseat is tiny, the Mazda3 isn't a lot better. The Elantra GT's backseat is smaller than the Touring but still decent sized. The trophy goes to the current Impreza but the Fit is close behind.

    The Versa hatch is still the old design. The sedan is redesigned. So you really need to specify.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2012
    We really like the Elantra Touring wagon we looked at during Cash for Clunkers. Must have been an '09? Then I guess Hyundai just went to the hatch for the US. How has yours worked out?

    Seems like our microcars are everyone else's subcompacts.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The Touring has been solid but boring. Underpowered, auto tranny isn't real smart, back end likes to kick out easily, jittery ride but the steering is extremely numb, no road feel.

    Hasn't had a single mechanical issue, but I miss my Mazda3.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The one we tested was a fun six speed and well equipped for the price. Just couldn't handle the fire engine red. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Mom has a Fit in Brazil, we took it on a 4 hour road trip with 5 people in the car, the room is impressive.

    My complaint would be road noise. Space was abundant.

    Actually, so was road noise. :D
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    comes out next year, but of course by then they will be building the North American ones in Mexico....

    Of course Versa will only be in year two, as will Sonic and Accent/Rio, and Fiesta will only be in year 3, so Honda might hold an edge for a while. IF they take the redesign seriously and stop making the customer pay extra for basic stuff (if it can even be had at any price).

    However, taking redesigns seriously is not something they seem to remember how to do, judging by the last few years.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interestingly, Fit is not seen as just a B-segment competitor in Brazil. It's called a "monovolume" there, in other words a very small minivan. They position it to compete with the Meriva, not the Corsa/Celta.

    It's price position here is much lower in comparison.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Honda Jazz, (Fit to you guys), is certainly a Meriva competitor here in Europe and certainly far roomier than any Corsa..............assuming Corsas are the same both sides of the pond, of course.

    My wife's '06 Jazz continues to just get on with life. No drama, no surprises and is the car of choice vs my S60 if we are a party of 5x adults. Rear leg-room is tons better and the higher, more upright seating makes 5-up a breeze compared to the leather-clad Swede. Of course, it's the good old 1334cc 3-pot with 75bhp so sure isn't a fireball but it does do what it says on the tin and that buys a lot of forgiveness. A 2.0 Vtec would be a blast but I suspect we'll see a Bugatti TDi before that appears. :)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2012
    Fiat USA re-engineered non-turbo engines to hit that psychological barrier, since some larger cars get 40mpg.

    "Architect Scott Kula used to ride a Vespa scooter to catch a train from Montclair, N.J. to his office in Manhattan. Now, he drives a Fiat 500 for the first leg of his commute.

    "It's my Vespa with four wheels," says Mr. Kula, 49, who works designing stores for Coach International, the luxury goods company.

    The number of cars under 160 inches long offered in the U.S. has grown to 13 models from nine since 2009."

    Dinky, Yes, But Don't Call Them Cheap (WSJ)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Mom's previous one was also a 1.3l. I think her latest one is a 1.5l.

    Her sons helped her pay for them. :shades:
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