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Our first question was which one we have about a dozen. He goes the one all the way out front the LX whatever one. Oh you mean blahs blahs car yeah that is a great one owner trade for a supercharged Range Rover. (Golic acutally knows who owned that particular car previoiusly)
US: Well sir have you driven it yet?
Him: Well no I just want to know what you will sell it for.
(Ok sidenote if you want to buy a new car with out test driving that particular car then that is fine but since every used car is a little different you should really drive it first before you start trying to negotiate. We will take you more seriously if you do.)
Continuing the story...
US: Well you really should drive it first to make sure it is the car you want before we start talking numbers.
Him a little agitated now: What you don't want to sell me the car? Do you have a problem with me or something?
US: Uhh no of course not here sit down and we will see what we can come up with.
We show him how we came up with the asking price and that it is such and such below TMV, KBB, NADA etc. and that we think this is a fair price.
Him: fine whatever what will you sell it to me.
US: Sir you obviously have a number in mind why don't you just tell it what it is and we will see if we can come to an agreemant. We think the price listed on the vehicle is already a substantial discount from regular retail pricing but we would of course consider other offers.
Him: Ok fine 23,500 dollars.
US: No, that is never going to happen you are asking for a 4,000 dollar discount on top of the ____ discount we have already given from normal retail asking prices.
Things go back and forth for a little while and a price around 25,800 is eventually settled on.
Now if the other guy who emailed in the 25,000 dollar offer had come in person and made the that offer and not been a jerk about it he very well could have bought the car at that price. We would have course tried to bump him but if he had just been nicer then this guy on top of offering a more reasonable price instead of a stupid low ball offer then I think we could have come to agreemant.
You're expecting the dealers to change their behavior when they have no reason to. I find it most practical to accept that people have reasons to behave as they do, and the best thing to do is to adjust to match their tactics. (Perhaps years of dating has taught me that it's often easier to accept the ground rules and make them work for me than it is to try to rewrite them when no one is going to let me.)
Their inability to make you happy doesn't seem to be interfering with their method of doing business.
In any case, you are permitted to avoid negotiation under the current model, just expect to pay a lot more if you do. Negotiation is not mandatory, just an essential process to getting a lower price.
The last thing I want is to be patronizing a dealer who expects me to adjust my behavior to match his selling habits.
The dealer doesn't expect you to game him, few buyers actually do this. When I advise you to game him, it's for your sake, not his.
The good thing about free market is that there are plenty of choices out there, and no one has to deal with a dealer who does not appreciate a customer's business
If you pay full price, they're not only going to appreciate your business, they're going to love you to death and hope to meet all of your friends.
The marketplace is this way by design, and you ain't one of the designers. Negotiation is a normal human behavior, like small talk and flirting, and it's to your advantage to excel at all three of them. There's nothing wrong or indecent about doing them, and doing them well.
----- But it certainly interferes with their bottom line. And if they don't understand it, the competitor gets my business. I won't be buying another GM product any time soon, and not because my Malibu had problems, but because various GM dealers I went to for service were, at one point or another, unhelpful, lying, and rude. That's how they do business, you see. And GM is facing bankruptcy. Quite a coincidence
In any case, you are permitted to avoid negotiation under the current model, just expect to pay a lot more if you do. Negotiation is not mandatory, just an essential process to getting a lower price.
------ I will still negotiate, but it will be much quicker. I will make an offer based on what I think is fair profit for the dealer. If the dealer accepts, the negotiation resulted in a sale. If rejects, then no sale. The price I'd end up paying may or may not be lower than the price people would pay for the same vehicle at the same dealer's, if they would spend ten hours negotiating.
If you pay full price, they're not only going to appreciate your business, they're going to love you to death and hope to meet all of your friends.
----- Again, I'll pay only what I think is fair to the dealer. I don't want to feel ripped off, and, by the same token, I don't want to feel like I am ripping the dealer off or wasting his time with ridiculous offers.
Negotiation is a normal human behavior, like small talk and flirting, and it's to your advantage to excel at all three of them.
------ Considering that small talk sometimes brings negative consequences, and flirting often results in nasty things crawling in your private areas, I'd put vehicle price negotiation up there as being one of the areas of human life which is dubious at best
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The govenment will never let the Big 3 go bankrupt.
You don't negotiate, you present an offer thats a take it or leave it. Thats not negotiation thats called making an offer, while it is part of negotiating it is not the whole process.
The price I'd end up paying may or may not be lower than the price people would pay for the same vehicle at the same dealer's, if they would spend ten hours negotiating.
Odds are the price you pay will be more than someone who negotiates. Also you have to get rid of the mindset that negotiating a lower price takes hours of time. If it does someone is dong something wrong.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
....interesting...(no arguement here)....
..for my flawless, well-engineered Honda 6M coupe, I used CarsD.....following three (foothills, circa UCD, and the state capital) non-productive dealership visits.
..multiple Crown Royals at a watering hole of your choice await the most cogent comment addressing this purchase avenue..........
..best, ez..
also, with regards to commissioned employees making money by cheating people, vs. salaried working for the same check, and can truely be fair to the consumer - how many of you work for an insurance company that charges so much for their services that so many people out there cant afford coverage? they are all salaried employees are they not? so do whats best, and provide coverage for all... what about those who work at an oil company, who are raking in record profits for gas. are they not ripping us off? are they not SALARIED employees?
just curious on some thoughts...
btw, i am a former salesperson - now working in the corporate world (wee!)
-thene
Even though I have watched the government let go of AmTrak they will always bail out the Airlines and the Auto Industry.
It is one thing to support extra-ordinary happenings, ie: disasters, it's another to continue to support poorly run companies.
When you offer a good whiskey we will talk.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You are "whistling in the dark" here. A couple of "experts" have taken over these forums.
I have given up but I applaud your efforts.
And I hope your new gig is working out well for you.
see i've been there, and walking in those shoes has changed my perception...do i want to pay more than others? no, but my negotiation process and what im willing to pay will be different from those seeking to offer the dealer a "fair profit"
-thene
It is why Warren Buffet "likes" insurance companies. The people pay you first and you can invest the money before ever having to pay out a claim.
I think this information would be very useful
i could always tell who had a chip on their shoulder coming in...and they just made the whole process so frustrating! i dont want to be frustrated, and the salesperson is trying to make a living, just like i did (and do! but not selling cars anymore). no need to make it us vs. them.
i find most dealers arent out there to screw people. yes, they are out to make a buck, but what business isnt?
im friendly, honest, and if maybe they cant meet my price, but they come close enough - and their customer service has been fantastic, i may just buy anyways. to me, thats more important.
anyways, that was long winded - and like i said, its nothing out of the blue. i dont make tons of money, but im not afraid to spend a few extra bucks to ensure that i will have great service next time i stop in. besides that, they may be so kind to offer discounts on any parts i may need in the future.
hope that made sense! i didnt go back to proofread! :P
-thene
My personal experience with TMV is different than yours. I purchased a new AUDI A4 in 2003. Clean cash deal no trade. TMV for my little corner of the world was sticker. A couple of test drives and an email to the only Audi franchise in these parts asking for a price quote resulted in a $1300 discount from sticker on a factory order. So for vehicles that don't sell in large volume in upstate NY, it seems that TMV missed the mark.
my basic approach is to go in without a chip on my shoulder. the person on the other side of the desk is that, a person. working to make a living just like we do. a lot of people try to buy a car that no matter how much haggling they do, is just not in their price range. then they get mad at the system for it.
anyways, my two cents...
-thene
bcMalibu99ls, one thing that I know for sure is that, "we" as customers, will NEVER ... EVER...EVER.... know the TRUE cost of a vehicle to the dealer. We might can get close, but we really have no avenue to find the REAL TRUE COST of a car at the dealer level. :sick:
Having owned a chain of retail stores, there are incentives, discounts, etc., that customers will never see, hear about, or see on any document. I would think it's the same way with car manufacturers. :surprise:
Mark
which takes me back to the whole point about offering the dealer "fair" profit.
how do you know what that is? :confuse:
I don't trust TMV. A few years ago, we were shopping for a used Lexus RX-300 and the local dealer's asking price was less than TMV (with identical equipment).
besides, i'd rather pay a little more, and be able to go back to the dealership and have the manager, salesperson and service department ready to help...
Salesperson will probably be gone and the service department does not give two hoots about how much you paid.
As to the "fair profit" thing, that is just a way to arrive at an offer price. If that is not "fair" to the dealer, there will be no deal. I don't see the complications.
I have never been able to buy multiple cars from 1 salesperson. The first new car I ever bought was at a very reputable Dodge dealer. I called the dealer ahead of time, asked for a senior, experienced, yada, yada, salesperson, and was referred to one of their "top guns" I think she was called. She had awards all over her office, was very knowledgable, and the deal went great.
Well, a year later, my lifestyle changed, and I needed to get out of my car, and into a truck. I called the same dealership, asked for the saleslady I burchased my car from, and she was no longer employed there. As a matter of fact, there was no one there that I recognized from when I had bought my car just a year earlier.
As a matter of fact, the best service I have ever received from any dealer service department is at a dealer where I currently take my 2 cars to. I didn't purchase either car from them, but they go well out of their way to take care of me (loaner cars, discounted service prices, etc...).
I would never base my purchase price off of what I "may" get down the road from my salesman of the service department.
------- There are websites out there which list current dealer incentives, including dealers in Canada. That's a good source of information. Besides, what other consumer items out there, of which we know the price the store paid for them? When you buy a leather sofa, do you know what the store paid for it and how much profit it is making? How about a fridge? Cars cost twenty times more, but at least we know the approximate cost to the store (ie the dealer), and can start from there.
As far as some people asking what is "fair to the dealer," that's a good question. Again, it's all about perception. After all, we want to walk away feeling good about our purchase. Maybe, it's just the way some people are, but I would feel cheap spending a few hours haggling over a hundred bucks or free oil changes for a year.
everyone buys cars differently - and you'll do what is right for you. but i think the big thing is too many people go in with a chip on their shoulders - and that just makes the whole experience tougher and less pleasant than it needs to be.
If you feel cheap, the problem is with your outlook, not with the negotiation process.
And if you need three hours to get a hundred bucks, then you need to revamp your haggling skills. There's no one formula, of course, but I find that it is easy to shave hundreds of dollars within twenty minutes or less, if you know how to do it.
In any case, this thread is supposed to be for the salespeople, not us. I'd be interested to hear their war stories and to hear their perspective, even if I don't often agree with it.
I bought two cars, my mom one, my sister three, three friends one each and one friend two cars all from the same salesman at the same dealer over a period of almost 10 years.
I would never base my purchase price off of what I "may" get down the road from my salesman of the service department.
I would agree.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
This is my 11th year and a large percentage of my sales are to repeat and referral customers. The General Manager, General Sales Manager and Used Car Manager all had their same job before I was hired.
But, we are the exception for sure!
Awhile back,in one of these forums, I told about I guy I interviewed a couple of years ago. He worked for a newrby Ford store. I think he said they had 25 salespeople and he was second in seniority.
He had worked there 8 months!
Well, when you're buying a vehilce every 3-4-6 years, that may be difficult to do. Practice makes perfect, so for the average person who doesn't "negotiate" for a living it may be a little more difficult than you are letting onto.
A lot of it comes down to ones personality and comfort level...as like you have stated on several occasions, negotiating is "like a game". But, to do well at the "game"...one should enjoy playing it. Like a "Basic" computer programming flowchart, there are hundereds of things a salesman can do or say to throw you off your gameplan. An experienced negotiator, or someone comfortable with the process, can deflect these type of questions and stick to their gameplan. The less experienced or easily frazzled, may get lost.
I think a bobst or bcmalibu strategy will get you pretty close to a good/fair price. So, if one does not like the negotiation process, the "hassle", or "the dealership not making a fair profit", it would be a good way to go.
I agree with that, I'm just trying to point out that it is a lot easier than most people seem to think, and that most people don't give themselves enough credit about how well they could do it. As long as you have the toolkit, you can adjust your tactics to match your own personal style -- it's simply a roadmap to follow, but you can vary the specifics to match your own personality.
I gave a couple of examples on the other thread, one including myself when I was just a college student, and another with a friend of mine with minimal negotiation experience who simply got a bit of coaching from me, because I wanted to illustrate how even a novice can do it. A lot of negotiation has nothing to do with money or business, it's really more of a study of human behavior, a bit like people watching, but with dollars being used to determine your score.
And the negotiation tactics learned from car shopping can be used in many other areas of your life, whether it comes to buying furniture, negotiating your salary package or even dealing with your kids and dating. These are not just specific business skills, they are living skills that you can use just about every day. Learn them well, and you will save both large sums of money and gain other tools that will help you throughout your life. (And it won't be necessary to go to the dealership with a chip on the shoulder if you know how to have fun with it.)
If you feel cheap, the problem is with your outlook, not with the negotiation process. ---
Everyone who posts on this board will "value" a $100 differently. To some this is a considerable amount of money, and to others it is "loose change"
If someone is fortunate eneough to find that leaving a $100 on the table is "no bid deal" then by no means do I think that is "a problem with your outlook" as you stated.
It is merely, his economic outlook.
We often heard stories of Micheal Jordon dropping $25,000 on a round of golf, bets, etc. It sounds surreal. But he was making 60+ million a year, which that bet to a guy making $100,000 a year is equal to $40.
Investigations on Invoice pricing, newspaper ads, market reviews, classifieds ( used cars ), radio/TV and word of mouth ( very very important ) will give a buyer a good sense of the price of vehicles in a given market ( another key point ). Then there are interest rates, sources of financing, extended warranties, etc to be investigated. With all this done beforehand...
Common sense then comes into play in being realistic with one's self.
Can I afford the Denali and still eat?
Do I have an idea of how downpayment, interest rates and term interact?
Am I going to 'take a shot' to get a killer deal or do I want/have to have one to drive home today?
What features do I have to have and which do I want but can do without?
Is this vehicle easily attainable or very limited? ( see above )
Am I comfortable negotiating ( enjoy negotiating? ) or will I feel overrun and wish to let someone else do it?
Before I entered this business I negotiated everything from suits to dinners to ticket to airline seating to autos to fruit in markets. Then I became Sales Mgr/VP huge steel company where every transaction for 20 yrs was a negotiation - all over the world. In buying a car frankly it didnt matter if the next person did $200 or $500 better than I or worse than I. If I felt comfortable with the price offered, I bought it.
Now I do the selling and there's no difference really. The easiest transactions are with the well-informed and the self-confident. It's a snap because both parties immediately recognize that the other is informed and capable. The price is normally fair and the transaction often is finished within 15 min.
I'm not sure why you were comparing furniture, appliances, etc, when responding to me, I mentioned in my post that I was in the retail business and no one could possibly know my discounts and incentives that I received from my distributors, and they probably didn't care. :P
Mark
I bought an Audi A4, and I had to order my car the way I wanted it. I had a crazy mix of options that aren't typically found together that would make it virtually un-sellable. But I was leasing, so I didn't care! The salesman was trying reeeeally hard to take me out of it!
I got the 1.8T engine, 5-spd manual trans, leatherette with manual seats, (but NO sport package), Bose sound system with 6-CD changer, xenon headlights, heated front and rear seats, headlamp washers, and (here's the kicker) NO SUNROOF! I had sunroofs in previous cars and never used them. In fact, I always even closed the shade. I couldn't see paying over $1000 for something I'd never use. In any event, I'm sure the dealer was thrilled to get that oddball at the end of the lease.... :P
Side steps on a range rover sport when the truck is only about 3 inches above the ground when lowered as much as possible.
I think the worst option is a "gold kit" especally when they put on one of those hokey gold plated grills.
Yuck!
Feel the same way about sunroofs. We never use them, always keep the shade closed to keep sun off of head. It would be interesting to know how many other people feel the same way.
Over the years, car models we wanted most always came with a sunroof so we got stuck with something we did not want in order to get other features/options that were part of the car model. Two of our present vehicles have sunroofs which we never use.
Remember shopping for and test driving Maxima SE in late 90's. The Nissan brochure said that the sunroof was optional, but the salespersons at the dealers we visited said we couldn't get that way with the SE configuration we wanted.
Also, I can't imagine have manual seats. I like to change my seat position all the time, especially if I'm driving on a road trip. My bottom would get numb if I didn't change my seat.
I agree with Isell 100%, I absolutely can not stand the "gold" package on any car! Actually, I like cars to be VERY factory. The only thing that "might" be ok are chrome wheels but they have to be exactly the design as the factory wheel. Other than that, factory all of the way! :P
Mark
I shake my head at the "gold" package as well. Or my favorite is the spoiler that just doesnt belong on "that" car.
I remember when I was looking at the sebrings when the first came out in 1995 and the sales man was pushing me to get a spoiler installed, the even had 2 on the lot with them. It just looked insane.
Both vehicles were driven by by an older generation than mine, and I'm never going to die young.
Both vehicles were driven by by an older generation than mine, and I'm never going to die young.
Good god, those cloth tops on the "big boat" cars (Cadillacs, Lincolns, Grand Marq/Crown Vic, etc) are HORRENDOUS!
I actually made a deal with my wife regarding this.... If I ever buy one of those, she has the go-ahead to just end my life right then and there. At that point, I would clearly be beyond hope. :P
In return, I get to put her out of her misery if she ever wears one of those old-lady plastic bags on her head when it's raining. :P
This is just a part of diversity that is so rich in our country that we should respect and embrace. Different strokes for...
True, but I think there's little doubt that additional gold trim and padded roofs will add nothing to the resale value, and may well detract from it.
Oh, you never know. Kind of like that commercial where the guy puts his old lime green hatchback on the internet, and they show the guy sitting at his computer discovering that there is a lime green hatchback for sale and getting excited.
I was on vacation a couple of years ago, and an older lady parks her white Grand Marquis with black cloth top and gold accents in the beach club parking lot. I wanted to laugh when another older couple proceeded to walk over and compliment how sharp that car looked.