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But seriously, can anyone who's seen a Highlander without the Limited Pkg/upgraded sound tell me if it's true that there is a fixed antenna instead of one in the windshield? Where is it at?
I'm still trying to figure out where Toyota cut corners in order to make the Highlander cheaper than the RX. Of course, there is the luxury brand appeal, the longer warrantee, and the extra services from a Lexus dealer (when we looked at an RX, the guy was nice, he offered to let me test-drive one for a whole day). Beyond that...comparing a loaded Highlander to a base RX, there are things like the electrochromic mirrors and memory seats. And some differences in interior trim. Is there more? The antenna? Does the HL drive as smoothly and quietly as an RX, or is it somewhat less well sound proofed? Someone in a previous post said the suspensions are tuned differently, but a salesman just told me that's not true.
I'm really hoping that the HL is mechanically QUITE similar to an RX--has anyone driven both? Am hoping it is the vehicle I've been looking for for a year and a half--not a true off-road SUV, but one which will give me better traction in bad weather. Something that will let me take the lawn mower in to get fixed without trying to cram it in the trunk (yes, I know it's supposed to fold up, but I can never remember how). Like an RX but cheaper and styled differently (and it has a better turning circle!). Not as wide as an MDX, and with a much smoother ride than a 4Runner. A little better gas mileage than a Pathfinder. It's just these darn options that seem to be getting in my way--too much of this and not enough of that in particular packages.
Hmm...the spell checker tries to change "HL" to "AL."
But I understand the larger point you were making, and I would like to add a little more on why many people would prefer a Toyota instead of Lexus. (By the way, I am not one of them, but much of my reasoning is because of the dealers I've experienced.)
Service and parts costs are another reason why people might prefer Toyota. For example, we have a Lexus dealer nearby that promotes a "premium" oil change service every 3000 to 5000 miles for about $120! They also offer a basic oil change for about $35, but they don't make all their customers aware of that. An older co-worker of mine thought the $120 fee was required on his ES300! What's the difference with the "premium" service? I believe they perform a little extra inspection work, and they also rotate the tires. In other words, this "premium" service would cost less than $50 elsewhere.
Regarding parts, I was soured by Lexus when I enquired about a CD changer for our ES300. I made the mistake of penny-pinching on our ES300 purchase, and I bought a model without the moonroof and without the CD changer. I really didn't want to pay $1000 for the moonroof, but I did want a CD changer. When I later enquired about having the CD changer installed by the dealer, the Parts Department said it would cost about $1500, before labor! I went back to my salesman to see if he could help on the cost of that CD changer, and he replied "no". He could not help me on the price of the CD changer. When I went back and talked to the Parts Manager, he said he could give me 10% off the cost. Hence, a 6-CD changer was going to cost me about $1350 plus installation! I believe that owners of older Lexus models no longer under the full bumper-bumper warranty would also be required to pay just as much if their CD players fail! I suspect stereo equipment for Toyotas might be just a tad less expensive, don't you?
My wife then went by herself and they threw her the keys for a test drive and told her to have fun! She took off by herself and took a leisurely test drive.
When it came time to buy, this dealer tried to meet the price we had in mind but wouldn't in the end. We ended up finding a great dealer through Priceline.com that would meet our price. THat dealer has subsequently handled all the insurance and paperwork and all I have to do is show up with a check and drive away.
What I'm getting at is that I don't think one "bad" Lexus dealer is indicative of the brand at all. We've never owned a Lexus, but from my experiences so far, I'm looking forward to it.
TC
TC
I'd like to know what octane gas the V6 Highlander requires. It seems that a 3.0L putting out 220 hp would require premium. But since this engine is used on so many other vehicles, it would make sense to me that it should use regular. The Toyota web site spec sheets didn't have this info.
Also, if premium gas is specified, would there be any harm in using regular grade, since knock sensors adjust timing to reduce pinging?
I realize that retarding the timing would reduce the power somewhat, but I doubt it would be very noticeable during normal use. Thanks.
Interested in the 2002 Mercury Mountaineer V8 - 2WD, but cannot see here in Charlotte until late February or March.
Looked at the RX300 and being honest - nice car - but I cannot afford it. Dealer selling 1999 RX300's for $39K and change.
Still interested in the 2002 Mountaineer.
Drove the Highlander - 6cyl AWD yesterday and it was k. Really do not need rear seat. just back seat. Dealer salesman "Tim" could not have been more helpful, cordial and knowledgeable. Spent time also looking at 4Runner.
Kind of interested in the Mountaineer.
Saw a Mazda Tribute last night and drove one today. 6cyl - 2WD and this baby moved out. Buddy of mine in back seat said o. on room, but critically thought the Highlander quitter and better appointed.
Talked to Toyota salesman again and told him Mazda 6cyl 2WD I just drove would leave his 6cyl AWD at the light. NO NO NO he said. That is a 200hp engine, mine is a 220hp engine and 2WD will be faster off the line than AWD. We shall see.
Mountaineer? Late February is a long time away.
So looked at Highlander options, V6, 2WD with NJ sound, LA Leather Package, AL Limited Package, AR Power tilt and slide sunroof, - WHAT is ID?. The Vehicle Skid Control, which I would like, is AN with ID? Also, what might be coming out in the future on the vehicle if I waited?
Thank you
Bill
I also know an Acura dealer who sells MDX's at MSRP with no required add-ons, with several models available as early as March.
If you're willing to travel a little, there's no need to limit your options, and no reason to pay full MSRP on a Highlander.
Before I bought the MDX, I was also very interested in the new 2002 Mountaineer. But being a Ford product, I was concerned about the first-year reliability. I was also concerned that a loaded Mountaineer might cost nearly as much as the MDX, at least initially.
By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if a V6 2WD Tribute will accelerate faster than a V6 AWD Highlander (as you suggested). The Tribute is definitely a lighter vehicle. Of course, are you aware of the Escape/Tribute problems? Last I read, there have been 6 different recalls since they introduced these models late last summer. I would expect the Highlander to have much better long-term reliability.
You could also do what I did and use Priceline.com. Set a low, but fair price. You have nothing to lose, if nobody accepts, simply bump up the price a little.
Or, if you are really being goughed by dealers in your area, simply buy the car from out of state and have it trucked in. It's not that expensive, but should be a last resort compared to the other alternatives mentioned above.
Good luck,
TC
In the pricing for the Highlander on Edmunds, they show an option "ID" - Vehicle Skid Control, Not Available with "ID". Does anyone know what the "ID" option is?
Thanks for the comments on Mountaineer. I was thinking about buying it so I could cart my friends to dinner. Talked to them and they said no.
I will research the RX300 and MDX. I really do like them both, except for me to pay sticker is too high right now. I have to be realistic, having a '79 Beetle and a barley.
Suggestion: If price is a concern, you might want to look at a vehicle with AWD in the $20 -25K price range like the Hyundai Santa Fe. We looked at this vehicle and while it is no MDX or RX, it is a great value for the price.
TC
I this many of us in this forum would like to hear more from Highlander test drivers. Thanks.
Both the 4-Runner and the Highlander are excellent vehicles, but aimed at different customers. The 4-Runner is much more rugged, more off-road oriented, and can tow more. It's basically a truck. The Highlander, on the other hand, is lighter duty, and offers more car-like driving characteristics.
So... it depends on what you want, or need.
Bob
Bob
http://www.usatoday.com/money/columns/healey/0044.htm
Tom S.
I think you could still get VSC on the FWD model because VSC is not part of the drive train. It is actually a system of sensors and software that monitor the wheel spin rate and yaw of the vehicle. When something is "wrong" it selectively applies the brakes to the appropriate wheel (you can do this because of multi-channel ABS) and adjusts the engine throttle.
TC
Nevermind!
All of the modern engines have a knock sensing hardware and algorithms built into the engine management programs to monitor it.
When knocking is detected, the system is able to retard ignition and make other adjustments in order to eliminate a possibility of engine damage.
On the other hand, running the higher-grade gas in the engine that is not designed for it, will not increase performance.
That's one small advantage to SOME of these Japanese upscale SUVs (RX300, HL, Acura MDX) versus the German SUVs (ML, X5) -- they can be fully maintained on "regular" octane gasoline.
Found out the majority of V6-2WD Highlander in Charlotte area were ordered with NJ Premium 6 in 1 audio, LA Leather Package, LL Limited Package, SR Sunroof, TO Towing pep package, VD Vehicle Traction Control. If I wanted to order something different, 120 day possible wait.
"What are you talking about? Premium fuel serves one purpose it allows for higher compression pressures in the combustion cylinder. If a vehicle requires premium fuel the pistons are compressing the air/fuel mixture to a point where the fuel would detonate on pressure only. Higher Octane (i.e. Premium) fuels allows a higher compression ratio.
If the fuel air mixture detonates before the spark plug fires you will have knocking which will eventually cause engine damage. Lucky for you the MDX and most engines that require high octane fuels have a knock sensor that will cause the CPU to retard timing (i.e. reduce piston travel) and thereby compression.
But here's the trade less compression equals less power + more pollution + less gas mileage (this all a fact). The ten cents you save per gallon will more than be consumed by less gas mileage...so in fact you are wasting more money burning 87 octane.
The problem is some people equate the word premium in premium fuel to being higher quality. Premium (or better-stated, high octane) fuel allows for higher compression ratios. Higher compression ratios are a good thing...as long as the engine is designed for the higher pressure.
High Octane (again premium) is of no benefit for a car designed for lower Octane fuel.
Bottom line for the MDX there is NO negative to using premium fuel. There is no reason to use low octane fuel
Using 87-octane fuel you will be reducing compression by approximately 7-10% as opposed to 91 octane (no need for 93). Because of the variables involved in day to day driving (i.e. temperature, traffic, route, your daily driving technique, and a thousand other minute variables) there is no way you can judge by your fuel usage or seat of the paints acceleration. But rest assured your engine (all other things equal) is substantially less power on 87 octane as opposed to 91 octane. All things being equal you WILL develop fewer horsepower, less gas mileage, and generate more pollution. Why do you think Honda engineered this engine to run on high-octane fuel? (Here's the answer...it's more efficient. It costs a little more to build an engine to withstand the higher compression ratios, but the result is better performance.) If you want to run your engine with retarded timing that's your choice...but don't state that performance is equal."
Well put.
But I found a lot of messed up details.
I liked this one:
"If the fuel air mixture detonates before the spark plug fires you will have
knocking which will eventually cause engine damage."
Are we talking about diesels here?
Also the termin "compression" is used incorrectly throughout the message.
Just my $.000002
I'm not sure I agree with everything mentioned in that post, but I do agree there should theoretically be a performance difference between 87 octane and 91 octane when used in engines designed for higher compression. The original post seems to think this difference is enough to offset the price difference between the grades of gasoline within normal day-to-day driving, but I'm not so sure that is the case. Also, there was a post in the MDX forum who sweared that he saw absolutely no performance or fuel economy difference when using 87 or 92 octane. It appeared that he was monitoring this closely, but who knows for sure?
BTW my local dealer is not negoiating price and will be asking for sticker for now, 34K!!! If the drive is as dull as the looks I am getting a Passat 4Motion wagon with Nokia studded snows.
Thanks for your time
I'm a scientist by profession, a medicinal chemist to be exact, and I tend to frawn when someone makes an unscientific assumption without hard data. As in the case being stated above.
Let's look at the real world example: Of engines than can both us regular octane (87) and premium gas (91).
MDX is in reality a modified minivan, based on the Honda Odyssey. So there is no better example (in my humble opinion) than looking at the Honda's own Odyssey minivan.
The Odyssey does NOT require 91 Octane. It will benefit from premium fuel just like the Highlander. Odyssey makes 210 hp when you using 91 Octane. But will make 205 hp using 87 Octane.
In another word, switching to regular gas leads to 2.4% drop in hp. Hp in a measurement of the how much work is done per second. Moving/driving a car a certain distance requires a certain amount of work. So if 210 hp engine could do that work in 100 seconds, then a 205 hp can do the SAME work in 102.4 seconds. So a 205 hp engine will have to work 2.4 extra seconds to do the same amount of work, using up 2.4% extra fuel.
Over here in Michigan, the 91 Octane fuel goes at about $1.70 a gallon, and 87 Octane goes by about $1.50 a gallon. The difference is about 20 cents, or you save 12% in fuel cost going with 87 Octane.
So yes, your gas milage will drop by 2.4% (since you have to work 2.4% longer to do the same amount of work), but you saved 12% in fuel cost. In the end, you subtract 2.4% extra fuel needed to do the same work by using regular 87 octane, you still save 12%-2.4% = 9.6% in fuel cost.
If MDX's engine is somewhat related to the Odyssey's engine, then the same would hold true. MDX owners would save some money if their engine could run on regular fuel. These numbers are not exact, since there are other minor variables, but the number should be in the ball park.
The mistake people make is the assumption that the premium fuel gets them a linearly proportional increase in performance as the difference in fuel cost. But in reality, the performance gain is typically much less than the % increase in gas price.
To sum it up, in real life, most people will save considerable amount of money by using REGULAR rather than premium fuel.
But yes, about 95% of the cars out there are designed to run at 87 octane.
TC
"Let's look at the real world example: Of engines than can both us regular octane (87) and premium gas (91)."
I stated that my post is reguarding "engines that can both use regular and premium gas". I didn't say that a engine that require a premium gasoline should use a grade of gasoline that voids warranty. I excluded them.
I agree with you that if you have one of those engine that requires premium fuel, then you really don't have an option to opt for money savings by using a cheaper lower grade gasoline.
As a further disclaimer to all that read my post: My last post is NOT an attempt to tell people to use wrong grade of gasoline. And at no point did I assume that all engine could run a regular gasoline.
My friend has a Camry V6 XLE. It could use premium gas or regular gas. Using premium gas gets maybe something like 6 extra hp. My friend always use regular gasoline. She said that she can't notice any difference, and since she doesn't drive the car at the limit if it's performance, she doesn't miss the 6 extra hp. So why not save couple hundred dollars a year?
I would tend to agree. Why not? At the end of the year, take your wife out to a fancy restaurant, or buy yourself a new tool set. If you are a pretty conservative driver, you probably won't even miss the last few ounce of speed that's missing. So why spend money on something that you don't need?
I won't be buying a Highlander as I saw the Liberty at the Baltimore Auto Show and am totally smitten.
I do some off-roading and traversing of fire rods, and then Toyota Dealer said that the Highlander wasn't even close to being able to off-road. So, cross the tall wagon off of my list.
I will likely test drive it because my mother in law is interested. Although she really likes my new Sante Fe and for over 10 grand less and a whole lot better looks the Hyundai is seeming a better deal all the time.
Seems like the new direction for SUV are these "tall wagons". After Lexus took the plunge with the RX300, Acura, BMW, Hyundai, most automakers have followed suit building these "tall wagons". Off-road SUV are a dying breed.
But if you really are one of the very few that plans to do off-roading, then you should avoid the Highlander, RX300, MDX... ect. 4Runner and Sequoia are probably your best bet. You could also go with one from GM or Ford, but good reliability is less assured.