...things got a little testy in here. I actually forced myself not to look at this thread as the posts built up, because I was supposed to be working.
Appreciate the reminder, pf!
Just a few thoughts: I've replaced one transmission in my car-owning life -- that of my '90 Sable in 1996 when it had 93K miles; cost me around $1,600 then. Also 2 clutches - in my first Rabbit at 13K miles, and my Volvo 240 at 220K miles: speaks volumes, doesn't it?
When I was referring to the numbers a while back, I meant that small differences in 0-60, horsepower, and torque aren't all that noticeable if you're not rocketing away from every traffic light. Many times, it's subtle, not readily measurable differences that make one car likable for a given individual compared to another car.
Re: California -- it's been the trendsetter for all things automotive since at least the end of WWII, so like it or not, what happens there is generally a harbinger of things to come in the rest of the US. So, it's not realistic to say, "if it weren't for California..." Kinda like our prez saying, "if it weren't for Iraq."
Re: Volvo C30 -- I said before I'd probably never own a Volvo again (had the old 240 for 21 years), but I must admit that the C30 to me was the most interesting production car I saw at the DC Auto Show. Sure, I sat in the Corvette, Miata, Solstice, and Mustang, but for a practical affordable car with snappy looks, the C30 is it.
The one there was blue (my favorite car color) with, get this, a blue cloth interior (not gray, tan, or black) and a 6-speed manual.
Re: GM bashing -- you won't find me doing it, but I will vigorously DEFEND Toyota. As I said, I grew up on GM iron and the only GM car I actually owned (a used '77 Impala V8) did well by me. I do hope that the Detroit 3 manage to pull away from what looks like a train wreck if only because we need healthy competition in the marketplace here.
Competition means lots of choices and keeps everyone on their toes!
Hell, if GM could keep the size and weight of the Cobalt sedan in RWD form, I'd buy one even with the current craptacular interior. I have no expectation of any such vehicle ever seeing a showroom floor, though.
Read the "Big 3 and domestic issues that affect them" forum post I made ??? Guys I really can't believe Boxer, is trying to push this agenda. I think their is practical solutions without ruining a important sector of our economy. :mad:
The Victory Red Limited Edition Hummer H2 will hit showrooms next month. The SUV version starts at $66,030, and the SUT pickup's price will start at $65,575. Special edition perks include a rear-vision camera system for help backing up and a premium appearance package.
Wasn't the Aura 3.5L slower than the Nissan Altima in the C&D comparison test (7.7 sec 0-60 vs 7.4)? And you would think this engine which is far more poweful than anything else in the test would put others to shame. Apparently, the extra V6 engine torque could not compensate for the extra mass mainly added by that V6. And we get the worst fuel economy. So what's the point? I would guess GM found that out and that's why the '08 Malibu will not offer this engine.
MARIANNA, Ark. -- A Novi, Mich.-based auto-parts maker says it is closing a vehicle-seat frame plant, putting 91 employees out of work.
Camaco LLC produces metal seat and wire frames, brackets, reinforcements and miscellaneous small stampings for vehicle-interior systems suppliers at the 188,000-square-foot Arkansas plant.
Plant manager Lenny Gschwend said the closing could be delayed if new business can be obtained, but he saw little prospect of that happening.
Camaco employs about 1,100 people and also operates plants at Lorain, Ohio, and Columbus, Neb., with 2006 sales of $180 million, according to its Web site.
"Do most people want a car that offers a lot of features for a good price? Some do, but I submit that what most people want is a car that simply costs more than their neighbors car. Few aspire to a Malibu, but an Acura TL - now you're talkin'."
The Malibu is not even in the TL's segement. The TL is a sport/luxury car while the Malibu is a family Sedan. At least you could have said Accord instead of TL because the Accord does compete with the Malibu in its repective segement.
"The G-6 isn't junk, but most of its customers were Avis. The Camry is also going into some rental fleets now, but the major customer for the Camry is still Joe Public. After driving the two, it's easy to see why."
I think the G6 is a more attented to be a competitor too the Mazda 6, Nissan Altima, amd Subaru Legacy rather than to the Camry crowd. The Malibu is more GM's Camry competitor I think or is supposed to be. The G6 doesn;t outsell the Altima but outsells the Mazda 6 and Legacy I think.
BTW, can somebody tell me the difference between the Impala and Malibu? I'm not trying to be sarcastic I'm just trying to understand the difference between the 2 cars.
"The G-6 isn't junk, but most of its customers were Avis.
That simpily isn't true. Got any data to support that claim ????.......I didn't think so.
BTW, can somebody tell me the difference between the Impala and Malibu? I'm not trying to be sarcastic I'm just trying to understand the difference between the 2 cars.
The 08' Malibu is approx. the same size as the current Impala. The 09' Impala will be all new and will be RWD and have powerful V8 options and rumored to perhaps have a wagon, coupe, convertible, spin off like back in the 60's.
"Hyundai has been taking sales from a lot of people. Sure Toyota has gained share in that same period but I'm sure many of Hyundai's customers would've been driving a Toyota as their second choice."
True.
"Whomever is on top has the most to lose in a competitive market.Sure Whomever is on top has the most to lose in a competitive market. when VW or Mitsubishi loses share its not news because they have such a small share to begin with."
Actually I think VW could be a legitmate competitor to Honda and Nissan but VW's bad reliability in their cars over the years has cost them alot of repeat buyers. Mitsubishi-they runined themselves with that 0/0/0 a few years ago and have been struggling ever since. Their exterior styling on their cars(00 Eclipse, 04 Galant) in the early 00's was not liked by alot of people.
"When you are GM there is a lot of share to surrender and you suffer the most when the number of models on the market increases steadily. The imports are not increasing share with a constant number of models, they are increasing share by constantly entering new segments and expanding their offerings."
True
"There are only 3 domestics (kind of) and 7 major foreign automakers in the US market. The big 3 still command over 50% of the market even though they have less brands and models than their foreign based competitors."
Yeah but Gm has 5 brands, Chrysler has 3(I'm not counting Benz either), and Ford has 3(not counting Land Rover, Jag, Volvo or even Mazda.) Toyota has 3 brands, Honda has 2 brands, snd Nissan has 2 brands. You want to throw in there VW/Audi, BMW/Mini, and Hyundai/Kia thats fine.
Rocky, I put quotes in the "The G6 isn;t junk, but of its customers were Avis" because I was replying to somebody else's posts. There is a sentence of mine underneath that quoted sentence.
"My biggest beef is that mainstream domestic sedans (Malibu, Impala, Sebring, 500, etc.) are ridiculed by these mags while similarly conservative imports (sonata, Optima, Accord, Camry, Avalon) received accolades in spite of being no more fun to drive than their domestic counteparts."
The Ford 500 deserved to get ripped because of that weak 203 HP engine it had in it for the first couple of years that it was on the market. I hope for 07 Ford put a more poewerful engine HP wise in the 500 because it needed it. Consumer Reports liked the way the 500 handled for a car that size however.
As for the Impala I sat in it and there was hard interior plastics. GM did a good job in my opinion with the Aura's and G6's interiors but the Impala's interior was filled with hard plastic.
Malibu-I haven't seen reviews on the new 08 model if there are any but the 04-07 the exterior styling was all wrong in my opinion.
Accord-The magazines love the current generation Accord but they do slam the exterior styling on the current model so the Accord does get a bad thing said about it.
"Think about it, MT was on the verge of making the Optima MTCOY when it offers less performance, styling and handling than the Aura. If Chevy built an Optima with a 185hp V6 in 2006 I dont think the reaction would've been the same."
An 185 HP engine? The Accord(200 HP) and Maxima(190 HP) had more HP in their V6's in 1998 than the Optima does now. The Optima is 10 years late with that 185 HP engine. I think 185 HP is underpowered for todays mid-size market. Some people even slammed the Mazda 6's 220 HP engine on these boards a few years ago and said it wasn;t as powerful as the Accord and Altima's 240-245 HP V6 engines which it probably isn;t but 220 HP is enough for me but 185 HP is so 10 years ago in my opinion for a mid-size car anyway.
The 09' Impala will be all new and will be RWD and have powerful V8 options and rumored to perhaps have a wagon, coupe, convertible, spin off like back in the 60's.
Well let's see the Sedan is confirmed and for some reason I remember reading a editor saying GM leakers have said the others are very viable. Hell, it was 6-7 months ago when the story on the 09' Impala, broke loose and became popular and I must of visted close to 50 sites since I've always been kind of a Impala fan.
For what? A race car? A lux small car? this is a Chevy and needs to stay inexpensive and good transportation for those who want an inexpensive small car. Let Pontiac go after those who care about RWD or AWD. Keep the Chevy price down. Yes improve what you said but keep it affordable. That is what Chevy is for.
Current malibu is based on Epsilon 1 architecture which was developed in Europe. It is smaller inside and out than the Impala especially in width. It cannot hold 3 across in the front seat. The '08 Malibu is also based on the Eps 1 but wheel base is longer and the body has been widened.
Impala is based on the old W car (Intrigue/Regal/Century/Grand Prix) and designed here in the early '90's. It is wider and can hold 6 people.
When the new European Eps 2 comes out in '09 it will be larger overall and be more sized like the Camry.
...to owning a pickup truck was a new two-tone blue and white 1981 Chevrolet full-size truck with an inline six-cylinder engine. New trucks were much cheaper than new cars back then and held up much better. My Dad offered to help me pay for it, but I didn't feel good about taking money from him as he made a pretty modest salary. I bought a used 1968 Buick Special Deluxe with my own cash instead.
The epsilon platform is very heavy, it has nothing to do with the V6 engine. European cars are typically much heavier than comparable Japanese cars and the Aura's platform was developed in Europe. The Altima has the most powerful 4 cylinder in this class and it's about 200lbs lighter than the Aura which explains why the Altima was faster. If the Aura had a four cylinder expect the 0-60 time to increase by at least a second, maybe more. The Aura GL is coming out to provide an Aura model for those who want good economy and it wont be much more than an Accord/Camry four cylinder model. I also think the base Aura will get the 6 speed tranny for '08 which will boost mpg by a little.
The Malibu is not even in the TL's segement. The TL is a sport/luxury car while the Malibu is a family Sedan. At least you could have said Accord instead of TL because the Accord does compete with the Malibu in its repective segement.
Right you are, but that is not my point. The TL is a better car because there is more money put into it, but the Malibu offers all the size and utility, so why do we want the TL? 'cause we are showing people we can afford it.
A good example is the Toyota Camry vs. the Lexus ES. Toyota put an extra $2,000 into the interior and standard features and charges $8,000 more. Pure genius. Do people buy it over the Camry because it is that much better? - well, yes, for their ego.
"Re: California -- it's been the trendsetter for all things automotive since at least the end of WWII, so like it or not, what happens there is generally a harbinger of things to come in the rest of the US."
I think that is a generalization that is hard to prove. There are a lot of stereotypes about people who live in CA and not all of them are positive. I can tell you that here in Philadelphia our car choices have little to do with what people in CA drive or their negative opinions of domestic vehicles. There are several pockets of the country where imports are much more popular than they are in the country as a whole. Washington DC and the SouthEastern US have similiar tastes. I think the best way to look at this is that CA buyers are more entrenched in their love for imports than anyone else in the country and that area will be the most difficult for the Big 3 to conquer. The best they can hope to do out there is stabilize their share in the near term. People on the left coast seem to have a lot of hate for domestic cars and that wont be easily overcome. ANd please don't say "if they make decent cars we will buy them" because that is total BS. Where I live competent domestic vehicles like the 300, Charger, CTS, SRX, Escalade, Tahoe, G6, Fusion, etc. are very common. It's not that there are no decent choices out there, it's just that people in some parts of the country arent willing to give anything that isn't foreign a chance.
Holy smoke. I saw a new Lexus ES yesterday afternoon and it seems they are not even trying to differentiate it from the Camry anymore. It even has the same "Bangle-butt" as the current Camry. At first I thought some poseur slapped "L" badges on a regular Camry.
How similar are the Camry, Avalon, ES models. They are differentiated by advertising and trying to have a different brand name not associated with Toyota. Someone said there are no parts shared between the Ava and Camry. Is that true? What about the ES and Camry?
Well, I'd say the Southeastern US is biased in favor of imports as many transplants are located there. As a result, their bias toward the imports could be a way of thumbing their noses at those "Yankees" in Detroit with their Nissans built in Dixie.
I don't know where everybody gets this idea that all cars in California are imports. I was in SF six years ago and I saw a LOT of domestic cars. Did things change that much in six years? I also notice that Californians love their classic 1950s and 1960s Detroiters.
From underneath they would look pretty much identical. If you open the hood they should be identical except for additional covers on the ES. Front of Dash (firewall and components) is identical between the 3. Suspension, except for tunign, is identical.
You should ask me, since I own a Camry. The ES 350 is essentially identical to the Camry under the skin, but has more luxury features and has the V6 engine only.
It's analogous to the current Lucerne vs. DTS (smaller of course).
The Avalon is on the same platform as the Camry but has a longer wheelbase and overall length. It too only has a V6 engine. Sort of like the old Seville vs. DTS.
As a value buyer, I've gone for the Camry. But those who need more gadgets or luxury touches (or the status of the Lexus name) will get one of the others.
Maybe there is some stereotyping, but there's also a lot of truth in that California is the epicenter of US automotive trends. Funny that most car companies (including the domestics) have design centers in SoCal. When Nissan moved their US headquarters to Nashville, they left their design center behind in Calif.
I leave it to the Californians to tell us they have a lot of hate for domestic cars and that wont be easily overcome. BTW, when I was in L.A. in Dec. 2005, there were a lot of neat old classics running around, most of them Detroiters of course. There were also numerous old VW Bugs, and I actually saw one Yugo.
It is interesting to note that 240hp for the accord was a before honda changed to brake horsepower which is lower then crankshaft or engine hp. They lowered the ratings on the 3.5L in the Ody and Pilot.
I was soundly corrected in the Camry forum by someone who said they don't share a single part between the, the Avalon and the Camry... Having had a neighbor who had bought the Earlier Avalon which was a Camry base and then he moved to an ES (his wife's car) sharing the earlier Camry base.
GM is hit for badge engineering... how is this different? Other than different motors dropped in. I can see it's good marketing. GM needs new marketing and new advertising agencies--maybe they can hijack Toyota's. grin.
California has been the focal point of a lot of changes, not all of them good. Most school textbooks are written to suit California's current fads, and those of Texas as well, and then distributed to other states who follow like lemmings.
California now is going to convert all light bulbs to fluorescent by a year certain in the future because incandescents have been around for so many years and aren't efficient. (Morning radio talk show reported this.)
I recall my brother-in-law telling me about the VW Bugs in Ca back in the 60s and how popular they were. Beginning of the import fad for them.
The Avalon has always had longer wheelbase than the Camry. I don't know about the 07 Camry though. This platform is shared between six Toyota vehicles in different wheelbase lengths: Camry, Avalon, Highlander, Sienna, Lexus ES350 and RX350 and it sells over one million vehicles a year in USA alone.
The reputations of General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. plummeted last year as the companies were buffeted by bad news about job cuts, factory closings and financial problems.
Once among the most admired U.S. companies, GM and Ford now have among the worst reputations in corporate America.
Right you are, but that is not my point. The TL is a better car because there is more money put into it, but the Malibu offers all the size and utility, so why do we want the TL? 'cause we are showing people we can afford it.
That might be more so for people buying Mercedes, high-end BMWs to flaunt their money. As a TL owner (2nd) and a former GM owner(many), we bought TL for refinement, quality, handling, interior, styling, and reliability of Honda/Acura brand. Continue to be "extremely" satisfied with this TL (and previous). Bullitproof. Could have spent more on some other vehicle, but TL was just right. I would consider a GM brand, but they have no offerings that can match attributes of a TL. I am waiting, and maybe some day GM will meet our needs again.
The new CTS offers everything the TL offers and then some. The G8 which will be unveiled next week will also be a direct competitor for the TL although it will offer much more power. If you are serious about looking at GM models I would check those two out when they go on sale.
GM is hit for Badge engineering for past sins. they did it pretty heavily.
Today GM has only two models that could be considered close to badge engineering: Torrent/Equinox and Cobalt/G5 and I think that will be fixed soon on the crossovers with new models coming out.
Anybody who says GM's are badge engineered today are either unknowledgable in how automobiles are designed or just giveing more excuses to hate GM.
GM Only has a few badge engineered vehicles left. The pickups, the Tahoe/Yukon, equinox/torrent, G5/Cobalt and colorado/canyon. Beyond those examples GM does a great job of differentiation on models that share a platform. Most people wouldnt know the Aura/G6/Malibu are the same underneath. Same goes for Lacrosse/Impala and Lucerne/DTS, those models dont share any exterior panels and have unique interiors. There is a lot of component sharing in Toyotas, just as much as you find in GM vehicles. At one time Toyota used the same four spoke steering wheel on almost all their vehicles from the Corolla to the LS400. Same goes for window switches, shift levers and other pieces like that.
Have you driven a 3.6L CTS? The CTS can out handle,turn and outbreak a TL. The turning radius of the TL is horrible for a car its size. I drove both before purchasing a CTS back in 2004. I The CTS can run on 87 octane to boot. The TL is great for having a lot of features for the money but for a driving enthusiast the TL is lacking. The TL is stretched Accord with a bigger engine. It a decent car for the price point but I would take a CTS or a G35 over the TL.
I would say so. I think GM does consider it more impartant to improve the big SUV mpg first since they are compared to better MPG crossovers.
PU's get bought for work horse and gas mileage is not the highest criteria. Also there are really no pick ups better than GM in MPG so they are the leaders.
Comments
Appreciate the reminder, pf!
Just a few thoughts: I've replaced one transmission in my car-owning life -- that of my '90 Sable in 1996 when it had 93K miles; cost me around $1,600 then. Also 2 clutches - in my first Rabbit at 13K miles, and my Volvo 240 at 220K miles: speaks volumes, doesn't it?
When I was referring to the numbers a while back, I meant that small differences in 0-60, horsepower, and torque aren't all that noticeable if you're not rocketing away from every traffic light. Many times, it's subtle, not readily measurable differences that make one car likable for a given individual compared to another car.
Re: California -- it's been the trendsetter for all things automotive since at least the end of WWII, so like it or not, what happens there is generally a harbinger of things to come in the rest of the US. So, it's not realistic to say, "if it weren't for California..." Kinda like our prez saying, "if it weren't for Iraq."
Re: Volvo C30 -- I said before I'd probably never own a Volvo again (had the old 240 for 21 years), but I must admit that the C30 to me was the most interesting production car I saw at the DC Auto Show. Sure, I sat in the Corvette, Miata, Solstice, and Mustang, but for a practical affordable car with snappy looks, the C30 is it.
The one there was blue (my favorite car color) with, get this, a blue cloth interior (not gray, tan, or black) and a 6-speed manual.
Re: GM bashing -- you won't find me doing it, but I will vigorously DEFEND Toyota. As I said, I grew up on GM iron and the only GM car I actually owned (a used '77 Impala V8) did well by me. I do hope that the Detroit 3 manage to pull away from what looks like a train wreck if only because we need healthy competition in the marketplace here.
Competition means lots of choices and keeps everyone on their toes!
Hell, if GM could keep the size and weight of the Cobalt sedan in RWD form, I'd buy one even with the current craptacular interior. I have no expectation of any such vehicle ever seeing a showroom floor, though.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070131/BIZ/701310365
Looks like Honda, isn't the only company with a special robot. :shades:
Rocky
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070131/BIZ/701310363/114- 8/AUTO01
Rocky
Camaco LLC produces metal seat and wire frames, brackets, reinforcements and miscellaneous small stampings for vehicle-interior systems suppliers at the 188,000-square-foot Arkansas plant.
Plant manager Lenny Gschwend said the closing could be delayed if new business can be obtained, but he saw little prospect of that happening.
Camaco employs about 1,100 people and also operates plants at Lorain, Ohio, and Columbus, Neb., with 2006 sales of $180 million, according to its Web site.
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070131/UPDATE/701310433/- 1148/AUTO01
Rocky
The Malibu is not even in the TL's segement. The TL is a sport/luxury car while the Malibu is a family Sedan. At least you could have said Accord instead of TL because the Accord does compete with the Malibu in its repective segement.
I think the G6 is a more attented to be a competitor too the Mazda 6, Nissan Altima, amd Subaru Legacy rather than to the Camry crowd. The Malibu is more GM's Camry competitor I think or is supposed to be. The G6 doesn;t outsell the Altima but outsells the Mazda 6 and Legacy I think.
BTW, can somebody tell me the difference between the Impala and Malibu? I'm not trying to be sarcastic I'm just trying to understand the difference between the 2 cars.
That simpily isn't true. Got any data to support that claim ????.......I didn't think so.
BTW, can somebody tell me the difference between the Impala and Malibu? I'm not trying to be sarcastic I'm just trying to understand the difference between the 2 cars.
The 08' Malibu is approx. the same size as the current Impala. The 09' Impala will be all new and will be RWD and have powerful V8 options and rumored to perhaps have a wagon, coupe, convertible, spin off like back in the 60's.
Rocky
True.
"Whomever is on top has the most to lose in a competitive market.Sure Whomever is on top has the most to lose in a competitive market. when VW or Mitsubishi loses share its not news because they have such a small share to begin with."
Actually I think VW could be a legitmate competitor to Honda and Nissan but VW's bad reliability in their cars over the years has cost them alot of repeat buyers. Mitsubishi-they runined themselves with that 0/0/0 a few years ago and have been struggling ever since. Their exterior styling on their cars(00 Eclipse, 04 Galant) in the early 00's was not liked by alot of people.
"When you are GM there is a lot of share to surrender and you suffer the most when the number of models on the market increases steadily. The imports are not increasing share with a constant number of models, they are increasing share by constantly entering new segments and expanding their offerings."
True
"There are only 3 domestics (kind of) and 7 major foreign automakers in the US market. The big 3 still command over 50% of the market even though they have less brands and models than their foreign based competitors."
Yeah but Gm has 5 brands, Chrysler has 3(I'm not counting Benz either), and Ford has 3(not counting Land Rover, Jag, Volvo or even Mazda.) Toyota has 3 brands, Honda has 2 brands, snd Nissan has 2 brands. You want to throw in there VW/Audi, BMW/Mini, and Hyundai/Kia thats fine.
The Ford 500 deserved to get ripped because of that weak 203 HP engine it had in it for the first couple of years that it was on the market. I hope for 07 Ford put a more poewerful engine HP wise in the 500 because it needed it. Consumer Reports liked the way the 500 handled for a car that size however.
As for the Impala I sat in it and there was hard interior plastics. GM did a good job in my opinion with the Aura's and G6's interiors but the Impala's interior was filled with hard plastic.
Malibu-I haven't seen reviews on the new 08 model if there are any but the 04-07 the exterior styling was all wrong in my opinion.
Accord-The magazines love the current generation Accord but they do slam the exterior styling on the current model so the Accord does get a bad thing said about it.
"Think about it, MT was on the verge of making the Optima MTCOY when it offers less performance, styling and handling than the Aura. If Chevy built an Optima with a 185hp V6 in 2006 I dont think the reaction would've been the same."
An 185 HP engine? The Accord(200 HP) and Maxima(190 HP) had more HP in their V6's in 1998 than the Optima does now. The Optima is 10 years late with that 185 HP engine. I think 185 HP is underpowered for todays mid-size market. Some people even slammed the Mazda 6's 220 HP engine on these boards a few years ago and said it wasn;t as powerful as the Accord and Altima's 240-245 HP V6 engines which it probably isn;t but 220 HP is enough for me but 185 HP is so 10 years ago in my opinion for a mid-size car anyway.
Rocky
Well let's see the Sedan is confirmed and for some reason I remember reading a editor saying GM leakers have said the others are very viable. Hell, it was 6-7 months ago when the story on the 09' Impala, broke loose and became popular and I must of visted close to 50 sites since I've always been kind of a Impala fan.
Rocky
Rocky
For what? A race car? A lux small car? this is a Chevy and needs to stay inexpensive and good transportation for those who want an inexpensive small car. Let Pontiac go after those who care about RWD or AWD. Keep the Chevy price down. Yes improve what you said but keep it affordable. That is what Chevy is for.
Impala is based on the old W car (Intrigue/Regal/Century/Grand Prix) and designed here in the early '90's. It is wider and can hold 6 people.
When the new European Eps 2 comes out in '09 it will be larger overall and be more sized like the Camry.
Right you are, but that is not my point. The TL is a better car because there is more money put into it, but the Malibu offers all the size and utility, so why do we want the TL? 'cause we are showing people we can afford it.
A good example is the Toyota Camry vs. the Lexus ES. Toyota put an extra $2,000 into the interior and standard features and charges $8,000 more. Pure genius. Do people buy it over the Camry because it is that much better? - well, yes, for their ego.
I think that is a generalization that is hard to prove. There are a lot of stereotypes about people who live in CA and not all of them are positive. I can tell you that here in Philadelphia our car choices have little to do with what people in CA drive or their negative opinions of domestic vehicles. There are several pockets of the country where imports are much more popular than they are in the country as a whole. Washington DC and the SouthEastern US have similiar tastes. I think the best way to look at this is that CA buyers are more entrenched in their love for imports than anyone else in the country and that area will be the most difficult for the Big 3 to conquer. The best they can hope to do out there is stabilize their share in the near term. People on the left coast seem to have a lot of hate for domestic cars and that wont be easily overcome. ANd please don't say "if they make decent cars we will buy them" because that is total BS. Where I live competent domestic vehicles like the 300, Charger, CTS, SRX, Escalade, Tahoe, G6, Fusion, etc. are very common. It's not that there are no decent choices out there, it's just that people in some parts of the country arent willing to give anything that isn't foreign a chance.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't know where everybody gets this idea that all cars in California are imports. I was in SF six years ago and I saw a LOT of domestic cars. Did things change that much in six years? I also notice that Californians love their classic 1950s and 1960s Detroiters.
It's analogous to the current Lucerne vs. DTS (smaller of course).
The Avalon is on the same platform as the Camry but has a longer wheelbase and overall length. It too only has a V6 engine. Sort of like the old Seville vs. DTS.
As a value buyer, I've gone for the Camry. But those who need more gadgets or luxury touches (or the status of the Lexus name) will get one of the others.
I leave it to the Californians to tell us they have a lot of hate for domestic cars and that wont be easily overcome. BTW, when I was in L.A. in Dec. 2005, there were a lot of neat old classics running around, most of them Detroiters of course. There were also numerous old VW Bugs, and I actually saw one Yugo.
See you all again this evening! Let's play nice!
GM is hit for badge engineering... how is this different? Other than different motors dropped in. I can see it's good marketing. GM needs new marketing and new advertising agencies--maybe they can hijack Toyota's. grin.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
California now is going to convert all light bulbs to fluorescent by a year certain in the future because incandescents have been around for so many years and aren't efficient. (Morning radio talk show reported this.)
I recall my brother-in-law telling me about the VW Bugs in Ca back in the 60s and how popular they were. Beginning of the import fad for them.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
However, the Avalon's body is bigger, so it is probably different. But is the platform different :confuse:
Once among the most admired U.S. companies, GM and Ford now have among the worst reputations in corporate America.
How bad is it?
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070201/AUTO01/702010368/1148
That might be more so for people buying Mercedes, high-end BMWs to flaunt their money. As a TL owner (2nd) and a former GM owner(many), we bought TL for refinement, quality, handling, interior, styling, and reliability of Honda/Acura brand. Continue to be "extremely" satisfied with this TL (and previous). Bullitproof. Could have spent more on some other vehicle, but TL was just right. I would consider a GM brand, but they have no offerings that can match attributes of a TL. I am waiting, and maybe some day GM will meet our needs again.
Rocky
Rocky
Today GM has only two models that could be considered close to badge engineering: Torrent/Equinox and Cobalt/G5 and I think that will be fixed soon on the crossovers with new models coming out.
Anybody who says GM's are badge engineered today are either unknowledgable in how automobiles are designed or just giveing more excuses to hate GM.
Did they ask "are they crappy companies", "are they in financial peril", "are they dishonest", "are they idiots".
Not good to be almost last but it would be nice to know how they scored.
The CTS can run on 87 octane to boot. The TL is great for having a lot of features for the money but for a driving enthusiast the TL is lacking. The TL is stretched Accord with a bigger engine. It a decent car for the price point but I would take a CTS or a G35 over the TL.
PU's get bought for work horse and gas mileage is not the highest criteria. Also there are really no pick ups better than GM in MPG so they are the leaders.