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General Motors discussions



  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    I really am not sure what the real competition is for this car. RWD/sedan/V8/supposedly a great handling vehicle.

    Mustang is more of a pony/coupe. Sure there will be some crossover but not really in same niche. Perhaps a Hemi Charger? Sure some Acura buyers may look but again they are FWD. Really do not think the BMW's are in the same market. Much more expensive. Same for any MB products. Am I missing any? EVeryone keeps hollering for RWD but there just is not much out there in this mid size $30K market.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    In a bind? I don't think so. So the bloom is off the rose for the car's 4th year on the market (gen 2)? Toyota has the Camry Hybrid now, which sold at a pretty good clip in its first year.

    Gas prices may be a $2 now, but just 5 month ago, they were $3. Who knows what will happen this coming summer?
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,993

    It's pretty sad pal when state's have to beg like dogs to keep a plant open. Jennifer Granholm, has begged, roll over ed, shakes, and they still close it anyways. :sick:

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,993
    Motor Trend said the Lucerne is going RWD for 2011.

    A baby Caddy BLS could be built on a Vauxhall/Opel platform scheduled for the Saab 9-3/Astra. I personally would like them to make a baby RWD Caddy sedan to go head to head against the BMW 1-series.

    What do y'all think about the Pontiac G8 ????? Nice isn't it ? :D :shades:

    It looks like rorr, the Camaro could instead get the 403 hp 6.2 VVT V8 engine stuffed under the hood like I said would be plan B since GM wants to retire the LS-2. I guess I'll leave that up to you rorr, if you want to quench my thirst because I did say the 6.2 could make it instead of the
    LS-1. :P
    This of course is what I predicted if the 6.0 LS-2 didn't make production. ;) The 5.3 will NOT be in the Camaro. The 3.6 V6 engine Loren, will be the base V6 instead of the 3.9 ;)

    The Cadillac DTS will be RWD with the new "Ultra" V8 engine for model year 2011.

    The G8, is still scheduled to get a non-supercharged version of the LS-7 making 502 hp. :blush:

    The G6 GXP is getting the 252 hp 3.6 along with a 6-speed automatic among many other upgrades like suspension, StabiliTrak, 18 inch wheels, sport-tuned suspension, hammerhead rear spoiler, two exhaust openings, etc...

    Impala will be a RWD and have the 3.6, 5.3, 6.2 options and will have both the 6-speed automatic and manual options. :shades:

    Uncle Bob, still has a soft heart for the Velite as well. It's not totally dead according to a GM insider close to Lutz. He wanted to launch it with the Enclave. So will I FINALLY get my Velite next year or the year after ????? :D

    The Malibu isn't getting a SS version because GM, wants to only add the "SS" to real performance cars. Thank-God, eh ?

    The Pontiac Torrent is also getting a high-performance version in GXP trim. The same SS treatment for the Equinox :)

    The Chevy Volt has a 12 gallon tank and is capable of 640 miles. It runs for 40 miles on electric, then switches to gas engine if needed. So if your daily commute is 40 miles back n' forth you would never burn a drop of gasoline.

    I guess GM is also going to also make a CTS-V coupe :shades:

    The Aura is getting a wagon version for 2010 and so is the CTS.

    The bottom line is this was the most positive I've ever seen Motor Trend about GM's vehicals ->EVER !!!!!

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Lutz really wants to upgrade Buick into a luxury premium division. Lower price points though than Cadillac (sports) and Lexus(Luxury). Lexus really has no competition in its niche. Acura and Infiniti are more sporty. I guess MB is a competitor. Issue is investment. Not a lot to go around.

    The next laCrosse is supposed to be beautiful and those that have seen it say it looks very expensive. Enclave is also beautiful. So it looks like Lutz is getting his way.
    Rocky, I know Lutz wants the Velite but it is an awful expensive deal to come up with a new car. But now that there is the Zeta I would bet it is based on it.

    So it looks like Buick will become a 4 model division.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048 x.html

    I was impressed by the badge. Nice modern change.
    Concept of “modernized” Pontiac badge, to gauge public opinion.

    3.6 only has 261 hp!!! why did they not use the Lamdas 275??? And only a 5 speed? I guess that at least is competitve with Camry and the others. At least the V8 gets a 6 speed auto.

    Pictures and inane comments
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    So it looks like Buick will become a 4 model division.

    That's about 1-1/2 models too many.
  • of the new G8.

    Rear end looks like a Ford 500, the interior looks cheap and gaudy like most GM's

    How it drives is most important to me. 50/50 weight distribution apparently. Hopefully the gear box, and steering are decently done.

    Overall not a bad looking car
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,294 the Philadelphia Auto Show this past weekend. It looks much better in person than it does in pictures. I didn't like the way the grille looked in pictures, but it looks pretty good in person.
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    261 is what the Australian 3.6L runs. What did they do to the Lambdas to get them up to 275? I would imagine the 6-speed has to be shipped in while the 5-speed is locally produced (and jeebus, they're putting some tall rear gears in there: 2.92 for the autos and 3.27 for the manual). Interesting that they are bringing in a V6 version also.

    Curb weight (lb / kg):
    Base: 3885 / 1762
    GT: 3995 / 1812

    No 3er, G35, TL competitor here. Try 300C/Charger/M35-45.

    I was impressed by the badge. Nice modern change.

    Bleh. It's the same sort of genericizing that was done to the Cadillac and Buick badges before it. The "Pontiacization" of the car is definitely not an improvement. At least it should be fairly easy to convert back to a Commodore.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    Everyone thinks the interior is high quality. Holden's have had higher quality interiors than American GM cars (as well as Nissans, Toyotas, etc.) for a while now. The G8's interior looks much better than the Maxima's to me.

    Overall this is a great car. If you want to know how it drives read up on the Commodire, I assure you the information isnt secret. The Commodore is like an affordable 5 series BMW and it's chassis is ready for primetime. It's much sportier than FWD cars like the TL and Maxima and the G8 will likely be much more capable than its most direct competitors.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Lexus really has no competition in its niche

    Being the first Asian Luxury brand to offer a factory tuner division, yeah I guess you are right, Acura and Infiniti are definitely more sporty.

    To a certain extend, maybe even the 1988 stick Honda Civic is more "sporty" than the IS-F.

    So it looks like Buick will become a 4 model division.

    That sounds about right, 2 sedans and 2 crossovers I assume?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I personally like the G8's interior. As long as GM doesn't use hard plastic for pieces at the visible spot I think it'll be just fine. I can tolerate hard plastics at the lower surface of the dashboard and lower part of the door panel for any non-luxury brand cars.

    I hope the V6 will go for around 28K loaded and the V8 for 35K loaded. If the price is anywhere around that range I truly think that GM has yet another winner on their hand.

    By the way, several features on the G8 showcar won't go into production and those are:

    20-inch "shadow chrome" wheels and performance tires
    Ride height lowered by about a half-inch
    High-performance brake rotors with painted brake calipers
    Custom interior trim color with a leather-wrapped dash and "phantom gray" exterior paint
  • For a start, the Commodore is a lot bigger than a bloody Camry.
    If your wondering where those crazy mag wheels came from check out website.
    This is the hotter side of Holden.
    They have 307kw out of the 6 litre engine.
    We have 3 grades of fuel down here, 91ron,95ron,98ron and you can also get a e100 ron as well.
    Commodore has won Car of the Year here from Wheels Magazine, check the site as well.
    It may be a little heavy, but boy does it handle beautifully.
    You can thrash it like crazy and it refuses to get upset.
    The interior is fantastic and Commodore seats have always been great.
    I'm sure if you place your order, you can get it anyway you want.
    Don't want bonnet scopes, then order the SS bonnet.
    Want a bigger rear spoiler, then order the SS one.
    I really don't see why you can't just order a left drive SS if you want.
    They are going through the same factory as the G8, so it shouldn't be a hassle for them to do this.
    As for the design, it is all new.
    It was drawn up 10 years ago.
    Simcoe had a big hand in it.
    He did the Monaro.
    He now is in charge of design over there I think.
    Guys, trust me on this, you are going to love this car.
    It is way better than the Monaro.
    I can't wait to see them racing soon in the V8 Supercar series and thrashing those old Fords :)
    Here's a tip, run it on the highest octane fuel you can get.
    Here we pay about $1:05 for the 91 grade per litre, $1:12 for 95, $1:15 for 98.
    I use 95 on mine and it hammers :)
    I won't touch the 91 fuel, it's crap.
    You guys have 87? terrible if that's true.
    You should hear one of these new Commodores with extractors (Headers?) and a Superflow exhaust on it.
    Some guy taped it at the site, check it out.
    Anyway, enough for now, enjoy your new toy, you'll love it.
    ps the HSV does a 5sec 0 to 60mph, quick enough for you,lol.
  • I read the Astra is actually SHORTER than the Ion it replaces. Meantime, the Civic gets bigger every new cycle. Will the Astra compete with the Honda Fit???.......Saturn should retain the Ecotec four for the Astra. It will retain American jobs, plus it's a superb engine........I don't see the Astra as a Civic-beater. Just seems like a rebadged Euro econobox, designed for narrow European roads.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    The octane number in the US at the retail pumps is based and the average of the motor method and the research (RON) method. So your numbers if they are pure RON numbers should be higher. Our highest grade premium is 93, which is probably the equivalent of 98 RON.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    From my 67 price guide:
    base price $3000
    4 speed transmission $200
    A/C $350
    radio $100
    brakes $40
    steering $100
    basic group $100
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788 - 07%203.6L%20V6%20LY7%20G6%20LoR2.jpg - 07%203.6L%20V6%20LY7%20ACD%20LoR.jpg

    It seems quite obvious to me that the difference is in the intake manifold design. The arcadia looks taller to me. In any case the torque is very similar, with the extra horsepower coming from higher speeds. The torque is greater, as a result of tuning, at higher speeds. Above 5000 RPMs there is more torque, and more horsepower. I am guessing that the big crossover SUV things have more space under the hood for a taller engine.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    LaCrosse, Lucerne, Velite-cars
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Hp does not come from extra speeds.

    They are both LY7 so they should have the same basic engine which includes intake manifold.

    BUT in looking at your photos the higher hood in the Lambda allows a better airbox which can make up some of the higher hp. Torque curves are almost exactly the same. The extra bump above 5000 is due to better airflow due to a bigger/more efficient airbox. I guess that is the answer.
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    Opel Astra- length: 167.3" width: 68.4" height: 54.8"

    Saturn Ion- length: 184.5" width: 67.2" height: 57.4"

    Honda Civic- length: 174.8" width: 68.9" height: 53.5"

    Honda Fit- length: 157.4" width: 66.2" height: 60.0"

    The Astra does get a 1.8L Ecotec 4, but the European version since it's built in Europe anyway.
  • torque_rtorque_r Posts: 500 - er_Preview.S181.A11871.html

    Uninspired. Sort of grown up RAV4. Interior is fine though: 270hp, 17/22 mpg with AWD.
    In comparison, Saturn Outlook AWD gets 275hp and 15/22 mpg (2008 rating)
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Not entirely, after posting I looked at the "whats new" link and found that the Lambda 3.6 has significant upgrades in intake and exhaust design. This is a direct quote:
    "The 3.6L V6 VVT HO generates more horsepower thanks to changes in the cylinder heads and induction system, increasing airflow through the engine. The intake ports have been reshaped to increase flow, and a new intake manifold features longer runners that reduce airflow restrictions. Finally, the exhaust cams have been re-profiled to speed the flow of exhaust gas out of the engine at wide-open throttle. Maximum lift does not change, but duration increases to keep the exhaust valves open a fraction longer. Preliminary figures indicate a horsepower increase of nearly six percent compared to the previous most powerful version of the 3.6L V6 VVT."

    An engine that has 200 lb-ft of torque at 6000 RPMs generates 200x6000/5252 = 228 hp; if you can maintain 200 lb-ft to 6500 RPMs, then you get 248 hp. Note that the 3.6 has more than 200 lb-ft at 6300 for the car engines, while the Lambda 3.6 horsepower peaks at 6600 RPMs, 300 RPMs more which adds about 12 horsepower.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Are you sure the Outlook uses the 2008 ratings? Seem pretty high. I expected a bit lower for 2008 numbers.
  • torque_rtorque_r Posts: 500
    The 2008 Lexus RX350, which is on sale next week, is rated at 17/22, down from 19/24 for 2007, lost 2 mpg city and 2 mpg highway. Do the same for the saturn Outlook and you will get 15/22 mpg, down from 17/24 mpg.
  • I've recently been thinking about Buick, it's histroy and what direction the brand might take in the next few years. Buick is a very storied brand dating from the early 1900's, and its heyday was in the late 1940's through the early 1970's, when it had a repuation for building stylish, reliable 'banker's hot rods'. But Buick was one of the most tragic victims of 1970's dinosauritis, and though by the beginning of the 1980's Buick had undergone a Kirstie Alley-esque weight loss program, the brand no longer held the clout it once did with the American public. There was a glimmer of hope with the fantastic 1984-1987 Grand National/GNX coupe, but alas GM killed it just as it was catching on and Buick missed a huge marketing oppurtunity. The late 80's and throught the 90's saw Buick producing reliable, functional, fuel effcient but utterly unremarkable cars. After the perky compact Skylark was dropped from the lineup in 1997, Buick maintained a lineup of four sedans for five years. In 2002, the Rendezvous, a crossover and much less homely twin sister to the Pontiac Aztek, joined the lineup. In 2003, Buick further expanded by adding the Rainier, an utterly pointless Envoy/Trailblazer twin which most people have never even heard of. This lineup continued until 2005, when Buick consolidated it's four sedan lineup into a two car lineup; the vanilla bland Century and french vanilla bland Regal became the jaunty LaCrosse, and the jelly bean LeSabre and Park Avenue became the sleek Lucerne. Hope sprung anew that Buick might be unearthing it's sporty roots, but alas, the LaCrosse and Lucerene, though definite steps in the right direction both in their styling, interior quality and driving characteristics, proved to fall short of the expectations of anyone under the age of 55. As a side note, Buick also added it's first minivan, the Terraza, but that was a misstep from day one, and when the Terraza and its other GM brand sisters proved to be uncompetitive, those lame ducks were taken out behind the barn and shot. But as of now, there is a bright light on the horizon for Buick; it is called Enclave. The Enclave replaces the botched Terraza as Buick's people mover and thankfully is one of the few examples of a show car translating to production with the core design and details nearly intact. I have no doubt in my mind that the Enclave is a future design classic. But what about the rest of the Buick lineup? What does the future hold? Ladies and gentlemen of Carspace and the general autmotive community, here is my vision of what the next four years holds for Buick.

    2008-2009 model years: Enclave goes on sale in summer of 2007. LaCrosse and Lucerne likely get mid-cycle updates for 2008 model year. Remote possibility that Velite showcar could be made into a production model based on Zeta platform for 2009 model year. Keep your fingers crossed.
    2010- This is the year where everything changes. The Lucerne and LaCrosse receive Enclave's elegant styling, switch to the Zeta RWD platform, and hopefully drop the cheesy names (Roadmaster and Invicta would be excellent candidates) and have the same engine/transmission lineup as the G8, the six speed standard across the board, the stick optional on the higher end sport models.
    It would work something like this:
    -Base, yet still well equipped models of the Invicta/Roadmaster would be dubbed Touring(LaCrosse/Lucerne CX equivalent) and get the 3.6 liter V6 and body colored exterior trim.
    The next rung up you would have the luxury tuned models, Invicta/Roadmaster Limited. They also get the 3.6 liter V6, but with more luxury accoutrements and chrome exterior/interior trim pieces(LaCrosse/Lucerne CXL equivalent).
    Climb another rung and you have your sport models, for which the retro lable 'Ultra' would be resurrected. They would be powered by the high output 6.0 liter V8 and have sport tuned suspensions, aerodynamic bits like a trunk lip spoiler, optional six speed manual transmission swiped from the G8/Camaro, and monochromatic exterior treatment with either a sporty interior with aluminum trim or luxury interior with real wood trim. Lastly, this is probably unlikely, but what if Buick borrowed the Vette's 6.2 liter V8 and stuffed it into the Roadmaster, added some understated bodywork, rims and badging a la Mercedes AMG to distinguish it from the other models, threw in a precision crafted, sport oriented interior, dubbed it 'Wildcat' and created a true 'banker's hot rod' to go toe to toe with the next gen Chrysler 300 SRT-10? The fully loaded price of a Roadmaster Wildcat would probably fall north of $43,000, but if you had a sedan with the elegant styling of the Enclave and powered by the heart of a Corvette that could run with the M5, the S6, the E63 AMG the STS-V while coming in at a bottom line at least 15k and as much as 50k under their prices, it would be a tremendous value with ridiculous sleeper potential. Buick could easily move 5,000 to 10,000 Wildcats a year if they could keep the price under 50k. Bob Lutz has always had a soft spot for a powerful RWD Buick sedan, and if it he gets even an inkling of an indication from the public that they would buy it, he would make sure it would get built. As long as they have access to this excellent Zeta platform, they may as well get as much use out of it as they can.
    And just for fun, it would be cool to see the Invicta get a station wagon model to compete with the Dodge Magnum. If they did build it, it would HAVE to have a modern Skyview roof as a throwback to the Buick wagons of yore. How cool would that be?
    2011 - Enclave gets mid-cycle updates. Fully RWD Buick lineup sells like hotcakes, and Buicks are no longer geriatric pillow soft touring cars; they've returned to the glory days of being 'banker's hot rods' once more.

    So there you have it, ladies and gentleman. My vision of the future of Buick. Your thoughts and comments are welcome and appreciated.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Did you make up the 2008 numbers or are they listed somewhere?

    I see the webpage still has 17/24 for AWD and 18/26 for FWD.

    Is there a listing somewhere for all MPG's for 2008 comparing to 2007? Be interesting to see how the vehicles did. When the HP ratings were enforced the imports dropped a whole bunch more than the domestics. Just wondering if the same will happen with MPG.
  • I like the G8 except for the hood scoops they need to go.

    Even if they are functional they should be changed some what.

    Secondly, could they have picked a more fugly interior to put in the press pics?

    Nothing wrong with having contrasting interior trim colors but gray/tan/black is not a combo that works.

    Just tan and black would have been better.
This discussion has been closed.