General Motors discussions

kevm14 · October 2005

Ok Fuji has nothing to do with Nissan.

Still can't find that Automobile article online but I did find this:

http://carscarscars.blogs.com/index/2004/03/who_owns_who.html

Not as nice as the other one (no percentages) but it's still a fairly comprehensive summary. Maybe I'll dig out the issue at home and try to type it out or something...

anythngbutgm · October 2005

The fact that Garbage Motors has no stake in Fuji anymore is enough to celebrate. Even if Toyo has no real plans of co-development, at least there's NO chance of a watered down brand full of neglegence or cheap half baked clones any more.

Happy about that!

carlisimo · October 2005

Not on topic with GM or Toyota, but about a merger that almost happened in the late eighties...

Taiwan has a few minor car manufacturers, but only one ever designed its own, Yulong Motors. They were led by a proud Taiwanese woman with close ties to Nissan, though now her son is said to be very unambitious, and currently all they do is modify other cars, Buicks right now, for sale in Asian markets. (The ties with Nissan and the Japanese economy might be confusing; basically, the Taiwanese were a lot happier as a Japanese colony during 1895-1945 than under the Republic of China.)

So back when this woman was president in the '80s, they designed an economy car based on the fwd Sentra chassis, the 1985 (or so) Yulong Feeling. It was a little more advanced than the Sentra; more electronics and better chassis tuning. The electronics would come back to haunt the car after a few years of service, and ultimately it didn't earn itself a good reputation in Europe and it lasted a generation and a half. Besides the chassis tuning, the best thing that I can say about it is that it didn't look like a copy of any other car. It was a pretty sporty-looking angular 5-door with a unique dashboard too. (I drove it, and it does feel a lot better than my '92 Sentra.)

During that time, Porsche somehow got a hold of one, and they loved it. They put one of their engines (a flat-floor?) in it and drove it around the factory. It worked well! It would've been a breakthrough for the company... but Nissan owned the chassis and they said no way. The end.

(I don't know many details about the Porsche project, due to my language deficiencies when I visited the factory. I think it was similar to the Mercedes Benz 500e thing; Porsche wanted to build more engines and keep its tuning engineers busy, but they weren't going to give it a Porsche badge).

grbeck · October 2005

I haven't seen anything that proves GM owns any stock in Toyota. At the most, GM and Toyota share ownership of a JOINT VENTURE - NUMMI - at a plant that was once formerly owned by GM in California. This plant now produces the Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix, if I recally correctly.

The partnership between Toyota and GM at this one plant dates back to the mid-1980s. The first fruit of this partnership was the Corolla-based Chevy Nova (later renamed the Chevy Prizm), which was better than any comparable small GM car at that time. A company owning a share of a joint venture with another company is not the same thing as owning a share in that company.

I can believe that GM holds an interest in a company that supplies engines or engine components to Toyota. Again, that is not the same thing as owning a share of Toyota.

As for GM building engine components for Toyota - that happens all the time in the auto industry. At various points in the 1950s GM supplied Hydramatic automatic transmissions to Ford (for Lincoln), Nash and Hudson. GM never "owned" any portion of those companies.

In the 1970s, GM, Ford and Chrysler all supplied major components to AMC. But AMC was never owned by any of those companies until Chrysler bought it from Renault in 1987.

PF_Flyer · October 2005

We're not here to discuss each other's family histories. Off topic posts will be taken down.

Please stick to the topics as titled. Thanks

jray4 · November 2005

GM does not need Toyota. Things are not really as bad as they look at GM! They have a large amount of cash on hand. Keep in mind only last year they had a record year in the anount of cars they sold. So they are having a bad year, but the UAW will concede in some of their benefits and will do so again at contract time.
Most of GM cars and trunks are not only equal, but many are superior. Look at the Chevy Impalla, it is the best in it's class. Look at the Vette, Cobalt, Buicks Pontiacs, Cadillacs, etc.
GM is a very intuitive company. Not like the Japenese who are great in copying our technology.
Drive a new GM car and you'll be surprised.
I bought a Pontiac Vibe which is the same as a Toyota Matrix just to see what the hype was all about. Well, this Toyota under the quise of a GM product is the worst car I've own in a long time. Now I can't wait to sell it and buy another true GM product.

rroyce10 · November 2005

.. **but the UAW will concede in some of their benefits and will do so again at contract time**

Agreeing to a $7 deductible on prescriptions is not what I would consider - conceding ..... they have a loooong way to go.

Terry.

mayberryguy · November 2005

A three part GM, BMW and Honda combination would be very strong.
Let's leave BMW out of this. Don't screw up a perfectly good company.

rockylee · November 2005

Better yet. How about a Toyota, Honda, GM,--> merge.

They would kick everyones butt. Everyone else would have to file for bankruptcy ! :P

lemko · November 2005

"Let's leave BMW out of this. Don't screw up a perfectly good company."

Shoot, Chris Bangle already screwed it up with his goofy styling.

carlisimo · November 2005

It looks like BMW is doing just fine, even if it's in spite of any mistakes. Personally, I thought the old style was boring and dated. Nice proportions and stance don't make up for snub-nosed, slightly bloated boxes.

Now that I've made a fool of myself...

I think Toyota should do more work together with Peugeot/Citroen (PSA). They're already building a minicar together (the Aygo/107/C1, for each brand) and it's won accolades. Toyota's Daihatsu brand could help PSA design smaller cars, in the same segment as smart. Daihatsu has some really neat looking and fun 600cc cars in its home market, but hasn't spread beyond that - and Europe is a difficult market for foreign brands to make a name in.

PF_Flyer · November 2005

GM is certainly going through a period of change. What makes/models are going to make it? What makes/models NEED to make it for you to still think of it as GM 15 years from now?

lemko · November 2005

Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Impala
Chevrolet Malibu
Change Cobalt to Nova

I'd change Buick back to its old names:

LaCrosse CX = Special
Lacrosse CXL/CXS = Century
Low end Lucerne = Super
High end Lucerne with V-8 and RWD = Roadmaster
Big RWD V-8 Buick = Limited

KILL Terazza, Ranier, and Rendezvous. These abominations have no business at Buick.

Pontiac needs a complete makeover. G6 and G8? Those names aren't going to cut it. They sound like somebody playing "Battleship." I'd keep Grand Prix.

Trucks? Leave 'em alone. GM has them down perfectly.

Kill Saab or sell it back to the Swedes. Nobody buys 'em except a few iconoclasts and Saab has already lost too much of its quirkiness.

Kill Saturn, it's redundant. Saturn's market is for Chevrolet.

Hummer? Scale it back. GM already has too many trucks. Keep the H1 for those insecure guys who has manhood issues.

rockylee · November 2005

I personally Lemko like what you had to say pal, you are a great patriot !

I however like Saab and what the brand stands for. I think GM just needs to pump some money into the brand. They need to be more Volvo like, and offer fun cars to drive that are all season capable. The Volvo C-70 is a nice car, but needs AWD and more power. Saab could make a hard-top convertible 9-3 with a big bump in power. I personally think Saturn will get alot better and will be profitable. The Saturn Aura is a beauty !

Hummer is profitable, and they need to offer a bigger entry level selection with a bit more power.

Pontiac just needs to be reworked and become more Acura/BMW like

Buick meeds to be more Lexus like and offer good cars with comfort,luxury, and creature features.

Cadillac needs to be the Mercedes slayer, with offering rock solid RWD luxury performance cars with a Much Cheaper MSRP

Saturn can be the luxury Chevy cars, good reliable cars like Toyota

GMC needs to be a upmarket division of Chevy Trucks and SUV's

Chevy needs to make cheap basic cars with decent performance, quality, reliability, with mininum creature features.

Saab needs to make AWD ONLY luxury/sport cars that are fun to drive with all-season capability. Be a all season M class BMW

I however could be wrong, but this is the way I'd like to see it happen. I do agree the good ol' names need to make a return. However GM doesn't believe the same as us. They think the old names are what tarnished GM's image.

Rocky

dpat · November 2005

Chevy - keep all current names, bring back the camaro, and for God's sake, don't wait 10 years to update the cobalt. That way, you won't have to rename the redesign out of embaressment. The musical chairs of small car names has got to end.

Pontiac - Reasonably priced sporty cars. Drop the torrent, and move the vibe to GMC.

Buick - Medium to large near-luxury cars. Target: Acura, and lower cost Lexus models. Drop the SUVs or move them to GMC. Change Lucerne back to LeSabre. Why change the name of your car with the most loyal customer base?

GMC - keep the same, add crossovers.

Cadillac - Doing pretty well, not sure I'd change a thing. Continue to target Lexus and BMW.

Saturn - trendy cars. Think Scion. Bring some european styled cars over also.

iluvmysephia1 · November 2005

Pontiac Solstice. That car is the most impressive GM car design since the '69 Chevy Camaro. I think they could easily poop-can most of the Chevy lineup except the HHR and the SSR and think hard about trashing the Cobalt. Their trucks sell well and so do their SUV's, I just can't stand their hokey looks. Get a valid design department, men. Ooops, Lori Queen is a design exec for GM, sorry Lori. Get a valid design department, GM men and women. Study the GM designs of the 60's. IIRC Lori Queen was involved in the design of the brand new 2006 Pontiac Solstice. A tip of my hat to you people for your hard work on the Solstice. Now sit back, crack open a crisp Midwest soda and watch the Seattle Sonics pull themselves up out of the 3-5 record they are stuck with. They trounced Boston tonight at Boston to creep up to 3-5. You and I both know the Sonics are a much better team than 3-5. They were a basket away from having an opportunity to go to the NBA Finals last year. The Spurs nipped them and went on to win the whole enchilada last year. My son informs me that your Detroit Pistons are 7-0. Yikes. The Flip Saunders school of offensive basketball design must really work. Very interesting study on the early NBA season. Back to GM and just what is their deal.

The '62-'65 Chevy Nova's are works of art. The early GTO's, Chevelle's, even Bel-Airs and Buick LeSabre's were good looking cars that generally held up pretty well. GM must flush back up the wonderful design integrity of their cars from the 60's, and get 'er done real fast, before their financial status is junk-bonded even lower.

PF_Flyer · November 2005

Some rumblings about a possible strike at Delphi and interest in purchasing Delphi's steering sytems operation from overseas.

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/051117/delphi.shtml

ATHENS  The uncertainties about Delphi's future stretch out like an assembly line.

Union leaders told the Detroit Free Press on Wednesday that Delphi Corp. wants to cut 24,000 jobs in three years.

United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger and Vice President Richard Shoemaker also said they did not reach an agreement with the company regarding wage and benefit concessions, and they alluded to a possible strike.

Add to that the news that India-based Sona Group is interested in buying Delphi's steering systems operations, which employs about 2,100 locally.

Union leadership alluding to a possible strike. Seems obvious that there have to be changes in the contracts with the unions, but a strike would seem to hold the possibility that those jobs would go away completely, not only at Delphi, but possibly elsewhere.

PF_Flyer · November 2005

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2005511170476

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=businessNews&storyID=2005-11-17T112948- Z_01_RID741094_RTRUKOC_0_US-AUTOS-DELPHI.xml

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051117/BUSINESS/511170396

The prospect of a strike drew closer after Shoemaker told reporters Delphi's wage proposal will not be presented to the 24,000 UAW members at Delphi for a vote.
Delphi Chairman Steve Miller had said he would begin the legal process to void the union's contract on Dec. 16 if concessions were not accepted by then.

beliver · November 2005

The "final offer" of $12.50 per hour base pay from Delphi being " a insult" and not even worthy of putting to a vote according to UAW leadership. It almost seems that Delphi wants a strike ( more likely than not at this point) so they can dump the US operations and concentrate on their other international ( read, profitable) look east to China and to hell with GM et al !!

I have two family members that work for Delphi at the Saganaw facility. Guess where they are as this is written ? CHINA !!

I just hope if Delphi goes on strike it does not trigger a general wildcat or sympathy walk-out from a lot of other hard line unionized sectors such as CWA,Teamsters etc. IF they want to they could literally shut this country down and Congress could not do a thing about it. This is the unions last gasp if the Delphi thing goes unchallanged it will be the 30's all over again.

believer

lemko · November 2005

Maybe to avoid tarnishing the Impala name by putting it on rental and fleet cars, change those cars to "Biscayne." Now, I never thought Biscayne was a bad name, it just denoted the low-end full-size Chevrolet. No need to change the car, just a new badge. Go back to the old two-taillight per side/ three taillight per side thing if need be. I always thought this was a cool concept!

Anyway, save the Impala name for the V-8 cars and the SS. Heck, make a plush Avalonesque Impala and call it a Caprice!

PF_Flyer · November 2005

Still a month to go before that Dec 16th deadline for an agreement to be reached, so a lot of this smells like PR posturing. Any resolution is likely to be somewhat higher than the Delphi proposal. But if there's no agreement, then the contract IS going to be voided.

Not sure a sympathy strike and the threat of bringing the country to a standstill would play very well with the public.

iluvmysephia1 · November 2005

pay cuts. $28.00 an hour are ridiculous wages and they are hampering their own company from making a good profit, not to mention Delphi's. The huge costs of medical insurance only add to the overall problem. Layoffs big-time are imminent at GM. Look for them to happen really quickly if the UAW doesn't accept large wage cuts. They should accept the wage cuts immediately and give back their ugly, huge SUV's they've bought on credit. They should do this immediately or they will be losing their jobs in just a short period of time.

Glad I buy from a company with a future, Kia Motors. This one's gonna be interesting to watch as it all shakes out.

andre1969 · November 2005

is the definition of an "unskilled worker"? That doesn't sound like a very good title to have, and if I were one, I think I'd try to get the training to get classified as something else!

fintail · November 2005

All of lemko's name ideas are better than what the current oh-so-skilled brand managers are creating.

PF_Flyer · November 2005

The UAW is in a tough spot on this one. If they hold out and don't agree to SOMETHING, the courts are going to void the current contract. The important question is, will they wind up with more by making concession now or by starting from scratch on a new deal... IF they can get one at that point.

beliver · November 2005

andre: As I have mentiond I have family members @ Delphi (middle management) they both have mba's and advanced engineering degrees so they really are not worried about getting shoved out the door as they are flexable and could get good jobs in any number of industries and would verry willing to relocate.

Delphi has offered fully paid college to any employee that wants to take advantage of it.less than 10% have ever done so.The $28.00 per hour jobs are a narcotic,lulling the line worker into a false sense of security in what is actually a dead-end job. The "salad days" of the big bucks are over in the us auto industry and will never return. Those poor saps that have sold their souls to the union and bought their line of more,more,while sitting on their duffs (education wise) probably pnly have their selves to blame for the fix they are in today.

Host: You are correct. The buying public would be totally ticked @ a wide spread work stoppage. Of course they will blame the mfgs.for that and more or less boycott anything to do with GM or Delphi IF this were to happen. I think that the younger buyers who do not have any "brand loyalty" to any extent & have already written off GM & Ford anyway.GM's customer base are dying off faster than GM can think up some way to at least keep the miserable market share from dropping any lower into the dumper than it has already. The US auto industry is on the brink of being a industrial joke to the world as it is. Black days ahead just in time for the holidays. Have a happy thinksgiving all you UAW sheep. Is the UAW gonna buy all you guys & gals a turkey ?

believer

iluvmysephia1 · November 2005

but the above discussion is true. You can't squeeze money out of a turnip forever. Eventually you're going to have to give the public a good product, a product that pays off for them to buy. GM is not doing this. They're ignored the car market for too long to catch up. Big ugly trucks and SUV's shouldn't be enough to save GM. Why people are even buying them is the biggest mystery to me.

Pay cuts? I'm afraid that time has come for you, GM workers. You're getting great health care benefits that your company can't afford to give you anymore.

Volunteer to take 1/3'd less salary now, before it's too late.

Yeah, I know, you can always work in a video store or a phone marketing job, you don't need to worry about it.

Right.

beliver · November 2005

What I saw yesterday pretty much sums up what is happening or about to happen. Guy stocking shelves @ Wal_Mart with Christmas merchandise. He had on a UAW t-shirt "solidarity forever" emblazoned across the back. Got to talking to him. He said he did not work for GM or any other UAW unionized firm. Found the t-shirt in the dumpster behind his apartment. I guess that just about sums it up for the unions in this country, like it or not. He said he was a retired postal worker and just worked @ WM to pass the time. I later saw him driving a new Toyota Avalon !!

believer

PF_Flyer · November 2005

Companies, even big ones, do go away. Look at the sale of AT&T that was just approved. AT&T arguably was the ENTIRE telephone industry, and now basically doesn't exist.

If the threat is to strike at Delphi and bring the whole shebang down, the UAW might want to rethink that. Something WILL come up to fill the void. Cars aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Our needs and desires for cars isn't going anywhere either. So if by some circumstance you forced GM to not reopen for business on Monday, if all the dealers scrapped their vehicles and closed down, the market would move on.

beliver · November 2005

Yep,Cuba has gotten along quite well without GM for what, the last 40 years or so. LOL !

believer

iluvmysephia1 · November 2005

GM has reportedly been financed or helped along by their financing arm, GMAC. GM's own financial rating is being junked further downward all of the time. How long will GMAC bail them out?

Or, is GMAC bailing them out? Anybody know more of the specifics on this issue? I and probably 400,000 other Americans would like to know more about it.

This Delphi strike(or non-strike)will be interesting to hear about. I mean, how long have we heard about GM not being able to afford retiree health benefits or even health benefits for current employees? Something's got to give, eh?

jae5 · November 2005

let's say Delphi and the UAW can't agree on concessions, the Dec. 16th deadline comes and wham, contracts are voided. What do any of you think will happen next?

Does anyone think there will be a flood of walk-outs and that Miller & crew will find quick replacements of the "skilled" / "unskilled" workers?

What would the replacements want/take in pay & benefits, particularly the skilled workers?

Do you think they can regain the knowledge-base quickly and efficiently that they will lose?

Is Delphi going to be the new symbol of China / India / wherever? And will this cause a ripple effect throughout the industry? Is Visteon to follow suit?

How will this effect parts / quality / logistics? for GM and their other customers? I mean, it's obvious Miller's mantra is to get the cheapest labor he can get and doesn't seem to be taking into account the ill-effects of going that route.

Just curious to how the board feels about these things.

vwdriver2 · November 2005

Definitely should keep the Aztec...

andre1969 · November 2005

I think Aztek would have been a good name if put on the right type of vehicle. IMO it sounds like something that would go great on a small, rugged, Jeep-type of vehicle.

redmaxx · November 2005

Pontiac - Reasonably priced sporty cars. Drop the torrent, and move the vibe to GMC.

Huh? That doesn't make any sense. The Torrent is pretty well accepted (read Edmunds review of it), at least it is better accepted than the Chevy Equinox. However, the Vibe doesn't belong in GMC at all. Pontiac makes perfect sense for the Vibe.

PF_Flyer · November 2005

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/051123/delphi_uaw.html?.v=2

United Auto Workers Union Objects to Delphi's Severance Plan for Salaried Staff

varmint · November 2005

Keepers:
Corvette
Suburban
Silverado

Big Losers:
Aztek
Malibu (damaged already!)
Torrent (just a bad name)

Name to Revive:
Bel Aire

ehaase · November 2005

Pontiac - Drop the torrent, and move the vibe to GMC.

Huh? That doesn't make any sense. The Torrent is pretty well accepted (read Edmunds review of it), at least it is better accepted than the Chevy Equinox.

Insiders at other boards say that the Torrent may be moved to GMC when the Equinox is redesigned for the 2009 model year.

derrado1 · November 2005

You've got to think though: most consumers don't even know what the heck some of these old names mean. I'm not saying, dump established names for fresh, new ones, but a lot of these names that haven't been used for a while, and that have "heritage", are just totally lost on the car buyer.

Some of them are pretty damaged too. What names has Chevrolet for example had in the past few decades that have been dumped? Celebrity, Lumina, Corsica, Beretta, Cavalier, Astro, Vega, Caprice... Mostly names that were all-new and were meant to be a fresh start. So, I bet in a decade or so, out the door will be G6, Malibu, the name that supercedes Malibu, the name that supercedes G6... you get the picture. Bring back old names, will almost always just anger die-hards (cough, Dodge Charger). And the names will be lost on others. Hell I remember back in that Charger topic people were talking about bringing back old names like "Polara". Do you think people will get excited over the name "Polara"? No. If you're gonna bring back old names, bring back good ones, and do a good job!

jae5 · December 2005

Don't believe people know this forum exists. I would thought many from the "Can GM Survive..." board would have transitioned to this one.

john_324 · December 2005

...I really hope GM actually keeps car "names".

I'm sick of the European, then copied by the Japanese practice of using alpha-numeric designations instead of proper names.

It was cool in the beginning when it was rare, but now it's so annoyingly common. As someone said in another forum, the Pontiac G6 name evokes the game "Battleship" more than anything...

imidazol97 · December 2005

The hosts said in GM discussion that they would be splitting it into 4 or 5 separate topics. I haven't seen those posted. Just those aggravating blogs they try to lead me to. I prefer the discussions.

Only way to get this noticed to have enough posts to make it to the 10 most active discussions that shows on the landing page. Low one today is 9 posts; high, 37.

lemko · December 2005

...is a damaged name. The 1991-92 Caprice was considered ugly by some, but it was hardly a bad car. Caprice might make a nice name for an Avalonesque version of the Impala.

Some names are damaged beyond redemption for various reasons:

Vega - obvious.

Corsica - was a very coarse car!

Beretta - not bad, just dumb to name a car after a pistol.

Lumina - not bad, but just as dull as Camry.

Astro - for some reason these vans are popular in Japan. They inspired the Xb Scion.

Celebrity - well, the way most of today's celebrities carry on, this name is a badge of shame rather than praise. Paris Hilton anyone?

Cavalier - refers to the attitude given toward engineering and assembling this car.

One good name that was destroyed beyond redemption was LeMans when GM put it on that dreadful Daewoo! Fortunately, Nova got an even better reputation when they put it on a Corolla clone.

PF_Flyer · December 2005

Saturday is going to be the day those new topics will appear. Here's a copy of the announcement that was posted:

The GM discussion has become a monster (similar to GM - how ironic) with the core focus of what was being discussed. There are some excellent themes that I think could be discussed deeper if not ebbing and flooding onto Toyota/Lexus or other non-GM items.

Here's the plan - this week (Mon-Fri) we have the GM story angle of the day. I'll post the item here with a link over to the entry and you can comment on the specific angle there. That will give you a place to post about GM in a more focused/themed area.

On Saturday - after we've had a chance to catalogue and come up with 5 or so good themes for all of you to chew on - we'll create 5+ new discussion. Discussions that are really at the heart of the GM issue, other domestic players and marketshare.

Here's the link to a bunch of GM news items to post about. http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/category/cat.GeneralMotors
So we're just about there!

jae5 · December 2005

Just wondering. Been looking at the blogs too. Here's something I found interesting in terms of the Delphi BK:

Bankruptcy fees

andre1969 · December 2005

you know how much I love my '76 LeMans...so you cann probably understand how livid I was when they dragged the name up for that Daewoo thingie! :mad:

To be fair though, the LeMans really trailed off in popularity after around 1973. Like most mid/full-sized cars, it suffered a big hit in the fuel crunch of '74. When the smoke started to clear for '75, personal luxury cars were becoming the in thing, so as buyers returned to larger cars, they overwhelmingly chose Cutlass Supreme coupes (even the sedan had a lot of prestige at the time), Grand Prixes, and so forth. Those cars gave you a lot of what passed for prestige at the time for not much more than the cost of a LeMans.

I'm wondering too, if the LeMans image might have begun to get a bit muddled by then. For instnace, the first time my Dad saw the '76 LeMans I bought, at first he mistook it for an Olds, until he saw the Pontiac arrowhead between the grille inserts. And even after that, he said the front did seem kinda Oldsmobile-ish to him. I think it's because the center section of a Pontiac was often more Vee'd, where on Oldsmobiles it was more upright.

Anyway though, the LeMans sold fewer units in '75 than '74, and was down again in '76 and again in '77. I think they sold around 250-300K of them in '73 (including the Grand Am), but by '77 it had dried up to around 80K.

The 1978 downsizing saw a slight improvement, to around 120,000 units, but by then they were looking even more like Oldsmobiles. I think they really lost something in the transistion from quad headlights to single ones in '78. While all the GM midsizers except the Grand Prix went back to single lights with the downsizing, I think they all wore it better than the LeMans.

Those downsized '77-81 LeManses also used the Buick 231 as the base engine, which didn't have a good quality reputation at the time. I think the V-8's were mainly 305's, but I'm sure the 301 ended up in there alot too, and it tended to be troublesome. I think it had a habit of eating main bearings. There was a 265 V-8 variant of it that was more reliable, but only had around 120-125 hp.

IMO, they did improve the looks of them for '81, going to quad headlights with a grille that actually looked a bit like the '77-78 Trans Am, and much cleaner roofline for the sedans. But it was too late. They only sold around 80,000 that year, and Pontiac pulled the plug.

Oddly, for 1982 Pontiac tried some sleight-of-hand with naming. They ditched the true full-sized Catalina/Bonneville, and then took what would have been the LeMans, gave it an attractive facelift, and slapped the Bonneville nameplate on it, in the hopes that it would sell better. Ironically, it peaked that first year, at around 80,000 units, and then tapered off after that. It never even outsold the final 1981 LeMans or 1981 Bonneville, both cars that were considered failures by GM. If nothing else though, it was considered upscale from the LeMans, so was probably a bit more profitable.

I'm sure most people that got pissed at the Daewoo LeMans were thinking instead of the desireable 64-72 models moreso than the big '73-77 models or the later ones. But it still pissed me off too! :mad:

lemko · December 2005

...I'm thinking of the ultra-beautiful 1968-72 LeMans! Those A-bodies were darn near perfection. If GM could make the Chevrolet Malibu as desirable as those cars, the Camry and Accord would just about disappear.

Here's one thing GM must NOT do - rebadge the Subaru Baja as a Chevy and call it an El Camino. If Roger Smith was still in charge, this probably would happen!

210delray · December 2005

Those GM intermediates of 1968-72 really had some flair, especially the 2-doors. I would say the 68-69s were a little more radical, with the 70-72s toned down a bit.

I also like the previous-generation intermediates (1964-67), especially after the 1966 facelifts.

Well, not to worry about the Baja; it's going to be put out of its misery. Plus as you know, GM sold its interest in Fuji, and Toyota picked up a share.

andre1969 · December 2005

GM really knew how to make some good looking intermediates back then. There are exceptions, but by and large I love the style of the '64-72 intermediates. I'm not so crazy about the '64-65 and '67 Chevelle, but for some reason love the '66!

But in contrast, the only Mopar intermediates that really turn me on, style-wise, are the beautiful '68-70 models. The earlier ones I can respect because they had great drivetrains and performance and reliability, and kind of a serious, businesslike look about them, but GM knew how to do beauty.

Even in the oft-hated '73-77 style intermediates, I think the GM cars just had more style and flair. The Mopars just had a basic police car/taxi look about them. I probably get that image though because just about every police car shown on tv and in movies in the 70's and 80's was a Mopar intermediate! And Fords like the Torino, Montego, and LTD-II just didn't have the same flair.

One car that would make a great El Camino is the Ute style that Holden sells in Australia. Same platform as the Monaro/GTO. Available in 2- or 4-door form. And pretty handsome looking.

big_prize · December 2005

I'll throw in my two cents:

good model names:

Malibu (people at least know what it is by now)
Equinox (sounds good)
Avalanche (even better)
Cobalt (hey, I'm a chemist, so..)
Tahoe
Colorado (to combat every Japanese/Korean theft of an American place name: Santa Fe, Tucson, Tacoma)

Grand Prix
Vibe
Torrent
GTO
Montana (the vehicle stinks, but the name can go to something else)

Canyon (sounds tough)
Yukon
Denali

Ion (more chemistry)

the bad:

G6
Monte Carlo
Vue
Relay (as is the part that keeps breaking on this thing..)
Uplander ("Highlander"/"Freelander" ripoff)
HHR
Envoy (sounds kinda wussy for a truck-based SUV)
Currently anything Buick: LeSabre at leasts sounded intersting.

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