Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

marsha7 · May 2009

I guess the question should be...how thin can they spread themselves and stay financially viable???...just how many Lincoln pickup trucks do they sell???...Lexus seems to be economically viable, so they can sell as many models as they want, but Ford/Lincoln have limited funds from which to draw on to make a limited number of models...

IMO, that would include specialty cars...those fancy Ford GTs are nice, but Ford does NOT need simple promotion of something that no one buys, they need something to keep the plant humming, and I also doubt that Lincoln pickup trucks will do it...

Similarly, Dodge does not need the Stealth, as few people buy it, and I am sure that few people actually walk into a dealership to look at one, only to buy a 300...they do not need flash anymore, they need to make something that buyers will buy...the flashy cars that used to draw them in probably do not work anymore, as buyers are, IMO, becoming more practical...I can assure you that when I needed to buy my Dodge pickup truck, it wasn't the Prowler that drew me to the showroom...

:shades:

BTW...I hate to agree with lemko, but they need to drop the letter models...I consider myself a carnut, yet I do not know the difference between MKS, MKZ, MKX, and whatever...to intentionally confuse the buying market, to me, is NOT the roadway to success...at least DTS and STS came FROM Seville and Deville, but the MK's make no sense at all...

Just my 2 cents...

stever · May 2009

While they are at it, they could use a piece of wire to hold up the exhaust system.

Sounds like the voice of experience, lol.

Ford is going to sell 300 million new shares of common stock. So those people who bought in to the company to take advantage of Ford's new found respect garnered by not taking bailout out money may find their holdings watered down.

Maybe it won't matter though if Ford keeps making the right moves. The latest is to confirm that Lincoln dealers will indeed be combined with Ford ones, at least in urban areas:

Ford Reduces Urban Dealers, Lincoln-Mercury Outlets (windsorstar.com)

nvbanker · May 2009

I guess the question should be...how thin can they spread themselves and stay financially viable???...just how many Lincoln pickup trucks do they sell???.

Actually, way more than necessary to make it profitable - since the truck is only a made over F-150, their break even number is 2500 per year. They way exceeded that each year..

Lexus seems to be economically viable, so they can sell as many models as they want, but Ford/Lincoln have limited funds from which to draw on to make a limited number of models...

BTW...I hate to agree with lemko, but they need to drop the letter models...I consider myself a carnut, yet I do not know the difference between MKS, MKZ, MKX, and whatever...to intentionally confuse the buying market, to me, is NOT the roadway to success...at least DTS and STS came FROM Seville and Deville, but the MK's make no sense at all...

Well, I agree with both of you - I also think they need to drop those stupid MK names that some advertising agency sold them on. And FYI, the MK came from the MARK line, and was originally intended to be pronounced "MARK", not EMM KAY, but of course, the public didn't follow instructions, and the EMM KAY designation naturally followed. They are stupid.

marsha7 · May 2009

I did realize that the MK was descended from the Lincoln Mark series...didn't they get up to Mark 6 or 7 (oops, I mean VI or VII?)...

nvbanker · May 2009

They got up to Mark 8 (VIII), and had a Mark 9 on the drawing board, based on the Lincoln LS/Jaguar S Type/Thunderbird platform, but it never made it into the steel. It was nice enough looking, and probably would have been quite the competent car, but large coupes were a tough sell then, and the numbers were not there to make the case to produce it.

brucelinc · May 2009

I think some of you guys are a little to hard on Lincoln - especially the MKS. As a bit of a RWD purist, sure, I would prefer a dedicated RWD platform. I would also prefer the MKS to be lower and better proportioned. However, the current generation D3 platform is very good. When equipped with AWD, any hint of torque steer is gone and unless driven like a maniac, the ride/handling tradeoff is pretty d--- good for a car of this type.

Instead of complaining that the MKS is on a Taurus platform, we should be saying how great it is that the 2010 Taurus is on the MKS platform. Early reports indicate that the SHO is quite a good handler. It might have been wise for Lincoln to offer a sportier version of the MKS with the SHO suspension tuning. It would fare better in magazine comparisons.

The MKS will not handle like a BMW nor is it an isolation chamber like a Lexus. Not unlike Ford products in earlier years, the MKS strikes a compromise. Buyers who want the last ounce of handling prowess will complain. Buyers who want a rolling living room couch will complain. However, a good share of buyers in the middle will like the compromise Lincoln has made.

As much as I admired the 60's and 70's Lincolns, luxury buyers today have much different priorities - more high tech, more edgy styling, and better handling. I think the MKS does pretty well at addressing the needs of todays mainstream mid-luxury buyer.

lemko · May 2009

I think the MKS does pretty well at addressing the needs of todays mainstream mid-luxury buyer.

Yeah, but it looks awful and I want a V-8! If the deck was a bit longer it would look a lot better. That trunk chopped-off just aft of the rear wheels makes the car look too stubby.

[Deleted User] · May 2009

The car is definitely long enough for today's size large cars, but it would have looked far better had they trimmed the long front overhang and added those extra inches to the rear. Even three more inches back there would have made the trunk opening much more useful. Long front overhangs are beginning to look quite dated. Trim ones look sharper now.

Ford has a tendency toward long overhangs in front and has for decades. The Mustang goes against that trend somewhat, but overall someone in design is demanding big schnozzes. That is one of the problems with the Flex. In making it a bigger vehicle than the Fairlane concept, they also felt the need to enlarge the front overhang by quite a bit. It would have looked better had they designed the bumper and grill with a bit less sheet metal and air space.

euphonium · May 2009

The timing and throb of a V8 can not be duplicated by a V6 & I prefer a V8 too.

Having grown up with balanced design that included more rear deck, perhaps the following will be helpful.

http://www.billsretroworld.com/cars.htm

brucelinc · May 2009

I agree the deck looks too short. The wheelbase is too short in comparison to the overall length and height of the car, too.

I like V8s, too. However, when the twin turbo MKS is available this summer, you should take a spin in one of them. I have a feeling that the low end torque will make you think they put a 460 under the hood. If it is smoothness or sound you are worried about, I don't think that is an issue, either. The way the engine is mounted, the much different gearing, the direct injection and turbos will have a positive impact on sound quality.

akirby · May 2009

The timing and throb of a V8 can not be duplicated by a V6 & I prefer a V8 too.

So you'd rather have a 315 hp V8 than a 365 hp Twin Turbo V6? I understand the sound and feel issue, but is it really more important than actual performance?

euphonium · May 2009

The number of times I would appreciate the feeling sound would be 10 to 1 over the opportunities to Zoom Zoom which in my memory is actually a breakfast cereal.

fintail · May 2009

Indeed, I doubt the typical Lincoln buyer could care less about zoom zoom...but they probably like the inherent V8 smoothness and maybe the noise made when the car is taken above 3000rpm once a year :P

I wonder if a modern TT 6 could be tuned to imitate a V8 in sound and manners. One thing that comes to mind is exhaust drone...I notice it a lot in modern Infiniti 6s. It doesn't sound great, and it would be an annoyance to a Lincoln customer no doubt.

berri · May 2009

I think engines are generally a Fomoco weak point and Lincoln, like all of domestic Ford have engines that are too noisey while they get middling performance despite mediocre fuel economy. Hopefully that is changing and the new models will actually get the improved EPA numbers on their stickers. I guess a loud engine reminds some of Harleys and old muscle cars, but nowadays it doesn't compare well with the quiet, smooth Honda and Toyota drivetrains that give decent driving and economy. For example, I haven't driven the new 2.5 4 cyl Fusion, but the 2.3 sounded like a tractor it was so harsh when accelerated while its fuel economy was noticeably behind Camcord. The V8 in a a Ford SUV is loud, sucks gas and is usually a weak performer. Now the reviews are saying the Mustang drivetrain pales against the new Camaro. But Mullaley hasn't been there that long, has a long list of problems to fix and limited funds. I'm hoping the 2010's are actually better and not just on paper.

akirby · May 2009

All of those V8 qualities would require a new RWD platform - can't really be done on the current one.

In addition to the current engines, a new 5.0L V8 is on the way to replace both the 4.6L and 5.4L engines. Rumors are anywhere from 350 - 400 hp Naturally Aspirated depending on application (truck vs. car e.g.). And it will have best in class fuel economy - that's a new Ford mandate. Just look at the 2010 Fusion to see what Ford can do when it's focused (no pun intended). The problem in the past is that nobody ever made fuel economy a requirement across the board, so individual teams never made it a priority. Bill Ford was always more concerned with emissions, where Ford excelled but the customers didn't really care.

brucelinc · May 2009

The following is from Ford press material regarding the MKS twin-turbo sound:

The Lincoln MKS team also was careful to give customers an exhaust note from the 3.5-liter EcoBoost V-6 that was pleasing but not overpowering. A precision-tuned induction sound tube directed into the cabin complements the feeling of power. It has the powerful sound Lincoln MKS customers will respond to.

Maybe they are not necessarily targeting the "typical" Lincoln buyer? I used to love the sound of a four barrel carb sucking air through a low restriction air cleaner. I also liked glass-pack mufflers. Times change....

[Deleted User] · May 2009

There was I believe an autoblog entry this year talking about how exhausts will so be able to be tuned to sound like anything. It is apparently no longer any significant engineering problem to get a V8 burble out of a V6. However, I think this technology is just in time to arrive when very few people care about that anymore.

lemko · May 2009

Heck, I hate the Cadillac CTS, STS, and DTS names. I'd rather see the classic DeVille, Seville, Fleetwood names. I love the long drawn out names like Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance!

marsha7 · May 2009

For once I will agree with you absolutely...bring back Sedan DeVille, Coupe DeVille, etc...if not for me, at least for lemko, the last man standing to buy a new Caddy...

alman08 · May 2009

Just my own personal opinion, I think it's an excellent idea that Lincoln started with the new names for their new cars. They needed to get rid of that American junker's image and move on, get new life. Two thumbs up! :shades:

nvbanker · May 2009

American junker image? Those were the cars I drove and loved! Renaming everything with Emm Kays, and making rebadged Fords is what went WRONG with Lincoln, IMO...... I think they need to get back to when a Continental, Town Car and Mark were unique cars to Lincoln, not Mazda 6 inspired crossovers and the like......

alman08 · May 2009

you're entitled to your opinion just as everyone else does on here.
I will stick to what I said and I will add this... I like how the new Ford management is handling things now.

[Deleted User] · May 2009

I agree with you to a point. The MK designation, however, was originally to be pronounced ?Mark", like a classic Lincoln. Of course the public and media saw MK and began saying Emm Kay, so the Mark idea was quickly abandoned. But then they ended up with a series of names that even the designers and dealers get wrong from time to time. That is because other companies using letter/number names either do like Cadillac and put the variation first (CTS, STS, DTS, etc.; C Class, E Class) or use numbers that increase (A3, A4, A5, A6; 330, 530). There is no rhyme or reason to MKS or MKZ. How is anyone to know which one is a step up, without becoming a Lincoln aficionado?

It was an ok idea to go for a new naming scheme. This one just got too muddled in the process. MKT comes before MKX? Why? And how does anyone keep any of this straight? Next Lincoln is looking at a small MKC that is more like a B class in size. They need to fix this.

alman08 · May 2009

"But then they ended up with a series of names that even the designers and dealers get wrong from time to time."

If Ford and Lincoln designers and dealers get this wrong from time to time, then the designers ought to be fired and dealers needed to be shut down.
Maybe you're talking about other designers and dealers. I do agree with you about there was no rhyme nor reason to those names, but afterall, they're just names. If my real name is Rich, does it mean I'm really rich?

MkS - Mark Sedan?
MkZ - Mark Zoom Zoom?
MkX - Mark Crossover?
MkT - Mark Transit?
MkC - Mark Cute?
(OK, I made these up...)

[Deleted User] · May 2009

It is easy to say or write MKZ when MKS is meant. No need to fire anyone.

MKS was supposed to mean either Sedan or Sport (though that doesn't fit). MKT is the model that came after the stillborn MKR (road? rod? race? rallye?) and the MKS, and the T suggests "Touring.". MKZ was straight from Zephyr. MKX as you say designated crossover, just as Taurus X did. But of course then how does really MKT make sense? The C concept was derived from Continental.

Names as you say need not ever make sense. But if you are doing numbers, it does make sense that the higher number is the more expensive car. Letters also suggest sequence to the public. C Class and CTS actually refer to the C class of car, alhough CTS was also derived from Catera, DTS from Deville and STS from Seville. And even given that, the sequencing is still right: C followed by D, and then STS suggesting special or S class or more expensive.

Bottom line, Lincoln alpha names have the least logic of any car company which uses alphanumeric designations, .Had they had the foresight to know that no one was going to say "Mark" when they read MK. they could have placed those letters second (ZMK, SMK, TMK, XMK), therefore rendering the names a bit more distinctive or memorable, if no more lovable.

berri · May 2009

Here's the problem. Numeric names may work for MB and BMW, but Lincoln is a different beast. While it may price at luxury list prices, it gets hugely discounted to the near luxury car price it really is. I don't understand Ford marketing. I think they may be doing the same thing on some of the newer Fords. Why overprice and then overdiscount? Seems to me it just wrecks the car's image before it has a chance.

[Deleted User] · May 2009

Point taken. But the attention is really to the Ford brand right now. The offerings are moving up in quality and equipment. And there is precedent for more expensive models under the Ford brand. In the 60s, Ford offered the big Seven Liter coupe, and introduced the LTD, which they compared with the contemporary Rolls for quiet. The LTD later became a parody of itself, but it had its shining moment. The Thunderbird was always somewhat upmarket until the 1977 downmarketing. The 4 door T-bird was quite distinctive, and sold fairly well. The big 1972-76 coupe was little different in luxury appointments from the Lincoln Mark IV and V, but few seeme to think that the T-Bird's existence cheapened the Lincoln. Both did well. And in our current century the very expensive GT had a successful run.

So, if the 2010 Taurus and SHO are good, people will pay the price. It may be the Lincoln that may be discounted more this time around. And if the Ford is a success, then there will be more money to attend to Lincoln. Meanwhile, the MKT will be here momentarily. It may not be your cup of tea, but it is very distinct from any Ford offering with plenty of Lincoln cues (whether you happen to like them or not).

akirby · May 2009

Meanwhile, the MKT will be here momentarily. It may not be your cup of tea, but it is very distinct from any Ford offering with plenty of Lincoln cues (whether you happen to like them or not).

When is the last time you heard of a Lincoln have a much better interior than a flagship Audi (MKT vs. Q7)? Not to mention it was MUCH faster with the ecoboost 3.5L vs. the Audi 4.2L V8. Whether you like the styling or not, you should recognize the achievement.

[Deleted User] · May 2009

Excellent point as well, Allen. Audi is generally seen as the interior standard benchmark.

nvbanker · May 2009

When is the last time you heard of a Lincoln have a much better interior than a flagship Audi (MKT vs. Q7)?

Well, that gives me something to look forward to seeing, as the exterior of this MKT is just garish to look at IMO..... I had already written it off. If the interior is something to see, I'll look again, because that is, after all, where I spend my time.

akirby · May 2009

Note the MKT outperforms the Audi Q7 in every category with more power AND dramatically better mpg:

16/22 vs. the audi's 13/18. Wow. Just Wow. This is what they were promising with Ecoboost.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/15/first-drive-2010-lincoln-mkt-ecoboost-and-mks- -ecoboost/

brucelinc · May 2009

There are "first drives" all over the web - everyone from Detroit news to Motor Trend, C & D, etc. All are extremely positive toward the ecoboost powertrain. Not only the power and fuel economy but also the smoothness has been praised. I haven't found one negative comment.

berri · May 2009

I worry a bit about the durability of turbos. Personally, I like Ford products but unfortunately they are usually a better buy used. Hopefully these new models, and maybe getting realistic about initial pricing will result in better resale values so they better match up with Toyota and Honda. The overpricing and resulting huge discounting kills resale.

brucelinc · May 2009

I worry a bit about the durability of turbos.

While maybe not a realistic comparison, farm tractors and over-the-road trucks have used turbos for years. In the mid '80s Ford turbocharged the Pinto 4 cylinder and used it in SVO Mustangs as well as T-birds. I think they held up pretty well. There has been a lot of testing on the Ecoboost. It seems to be a very well sorted out program.

I really hope Ford prices their vehicles and manages their inventory in such a way that huge rebates and fire-sale discounting is a thing of the past. It does seem that they are asking quite a premium for the ecoboost but we will have to see what the market says.

alman08 · May 2009

about a week ago, I wrote a letter to Ford stating that I like the direction of the new management and I hope they will continue. I also said that in my opinion, the best looking car (exterior) in the Ford line up is the newest Fusion and I suggested they might consider, without altering the exterior too much, by making it into a coupe and keep the price under $28k for a fully loaded model. Just my opinion, it might sell well because most midsize cars now a day have a coupe version.
now I just saw pics of the 2010 MKZ, what a beautiful car, and I thought the same idea should apply to it and make it a small luxury coupe. While I am not a horsepower race kind of guy (forget the horsepower war and keep it under $35K for a fully loaded version), I do wish this can compete with the import entry luxury coupes. let's see if that will ever happen... :shades:
anyway, it's just all my opinion and I like coupes.

[Deleted User] · May 2009

Too bad more people don't like coupes. Ford abandoned coupes for the most part when the business case could no longer be made.

The additional problem with a coupe version of either the Fusion or MKZ is that the body of both has been around since 2005 (2006 model) and even with the front and rear restyles, it is getting pretty long in the tooth and pretty boxy looking compared to the competition. 2012 should bring a clean sheet design.

wwest · June 2009

Put me in charge of Ford and I would IMMEDIATELY clone the Lexus LS series but with the GSh series HSD system, An LS275.....

Then I would set about SCRAPPING the EcoBoost engine (otherwise known a GAS GUZZLING TWINFORCE engine) series in favor of a new engine that is more FE oriented but still with STELLAR, but reasonable, HP/torque.

fezo · June 2009

I'm one of those guys that doesn't dig coupes. Now a convertible would be another story. Heck, you can make it a retractable hardtop and keep the coupe and convertible people happy...

nvbanker · July 2009

You're speaking my language.....I used to drive Lincolns, then when they lost their way, switched to Lexus and drive an LS now. So, if Lincoln could clone the LS to a reasonable degree, they should be able to attract my business again, one would think. Not sure though, it may be too late. Once you have owned a Lexus, it's not easy going back to Lincoln or Cadillac. They are just not in the same class anymore.

I "like" the new MKS. It's pretty. The interior is outstanding, every bit as good as my Lexus inside. Where it misses the mark is in the FWD layout, the 6 cylinder motor (eco-boost MAY solve that, don't know yet) and the Lincoln name has now been denigrated so severely with the poor product they have put out in the last 10 years, it means nothing to say you have a Lincoln anymore. Lastly, I HATE with a PASSION the MK designated names of the cars. I was a participant on the focus group that named the Aviator, and even back then they were hell bent on dishing us names that were alpha-numeric, and the focus group soundly voted them all down, and Aviator won the day. Still someone at Ford or at the Ad agency, convinced them to go alpha, and they had to choose MK????? Ford wouldn't listen, and Lincoln lost a long time customer.

To get me back, I need an LS like car, named Continental, Premier, Cosmopolitan, or something other than MK.

akirby · July 2009

Don't forget that "EMM-KAY" was not what was originally planned. It was supposed to be MARK-whatever which I wasn't crazy about either but it was better than just "MK".

I think we'll see a new Lincoln with a new flagship, new RWD platforms and even more technology - and probably new names. But not for 2 or 3 years. They still have to get the rest of the Ford makeover done - Explorer, Fiesta, Transit Connect, Focus - next year before they can divert resources to Lincoln.

euphonium · July 2009

market a TC without Mustang's 300 hp engine and a 6 speed automatic. :confuse:

fintail · July 2009

Is the TC even marketed towards private buyers anymore?

nvbanker · July 2009

Yes, Allen, I knew about the Mark phonetics intention, but it was ill-conceived and evolved as we should have known it would. the MARK-LT was the first stupid move, that truck should have retained the BLACKWOOD name, which was elegant and made sense. I'm actually sorry to see the LT discontinued, although I understand the LIMITED F-150 is just as nice. (Love that truck).

So, know that you have me going (anybody listening out there, FORD?), here's my dream lineup for Lincoln:

TOWN CAR - Clone the Lexus LS as best you can. Keep the name.
MKS - A good car, keep it, rename it CONTINENTAL. - Make Eco Boost standard.
MKZ - Forgetaboutit. Replace with RWD C-class vehicle like the CTS.
MKX - Bring back the AVIATOR name. Make Eco-Boost standard.
NAVIGATOR - Upgrade the truck with new styling consistent with the new Lincolns.
MKT - Dump it.

[Deleted User] · July 2009

Well, as long as we are issuing wishes that no one at Lincoln will really heed, my lineup:

TOWN CAR - Clone the Lexus LS as best you can. Keep the name. Give it some MKR flavor
MKS - A good car, keep it, rename it CONTINENTAL. - Make Eco Boost standard. Restyle it so it doesn't look so stubby and dumpy. If they can do it with the 2010 Taurus, they can clean up this mish mash too
MKZ - Forgetaboutit. Replace with RWD C-class vehicle like the CTS, or barring that, give it some real distinction from Fusion, and make AWD standard.
MKX - Bring back the AVIATOR name. Make Eco-Boost standard. Restyle in Lincoln mode stem to stern ASAP. Make it quieter, and upgrade the interior.
NAVIGATOR - Upgrade the truck with new styling consistent with the new Lincolns. Use an innovative driveline (at least offer hybrid or diesel or ecoboost)
MKT - Keep it. Best looking Lincoln in the current lineup, though it is too long, with too much overhang to be the best it could be. Get a higher mpg version out.

nvbanker · July 2009

You really like that MKT gregg? I can't warm up to it at all. Reminds me of an overgrown HHR. However, I've not seen one on the ground yet. Maybe I would like it better than the pictures.....

[Deleted User] · July 2009

Well, I don't much like how they dumbed it down from the concept, losing some of the new Lincoln inyerface flavor in the process, e.g., the back seat doors are now too station-wagony for my taste, and the overhangs are excessive. Still it kept some of the new Lincoln cues and translated better to production than how they wrecked the very Lincoln looking Aviator concept by grafting the concept's grill design on an exact copy of the Ford Edge body...but I've beaten that horse to death after I closed that door after it left the barn so to speak (and the Aviator design language is now passe anyway).

Lincoln needs stuff that stands out, not decent LS and MKZ wallflowers. Those who have tested the MKT insist its interior tops the Audi, and that is saying quite a bit. Whether you like the lines or not, it does not look like a cheaply made or poorly executed car.

akirby · July 2009

Shouldn't we really be looking for Lincoln to make vehicles that generate profits - whether we individually like them or not? The more profits they have the more money they have to put into building cars that we do like.

I like bringing back Continental for the MKS, but I don't think Town Car is suitable for the flagship. I'd like to see a more dynamic name and I'd like to see it slotted somewhere between Lexus and BMW - more sporty than Lexus - just like the Fusion is more sporty than the Camry.

The MKT is needed as a large crossover alternative to the Navigator. It may merge onto a common platform with the MKX.

toomanyfumes · July 2009

Talk to anyone who doesn't follow Lincoln closely; even car guys, and ask which car is which. MKS, MKZ, MKT, MKX. Noone knows which is the crossover, Flagship sedan, etc. People I work with know I like Lincolns, I have a LS, and they comment on how nice the new MKS is. (Although they don't know if it's a MKZ, MKX, etc.)

akirby · July 2009

When more than one person says "I won't buy a Lincoln because of the stupid names" - then it might be important. As long as they know it's a Lincoln I don't think it matters much.

I'm not a fan of the naming scheme but I don't think it's hurting sales.

stever · July 2009

Sales are awful.

That is to say, they could be a lot worse. :shades:

Half-Time Scores: Winners Lose The Least (AutoObserver)

Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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