They just don't make economic sense. Costs include the added upfront price difference ($$$$), the ongoing maintenance costs (tied to a dealer), battery replacement costs (more $$$$) and higher than average depreciation.
Plus, by waiting, you'll miss depressed prices caused by GM and Ford fighting to keep themselves out of bankruptcy, the benefits of a Japanese made, mature 1st generation Fit with no first year bugaboos and an aftermarket that has been kitting out the same car for years...
I think hybrids are great, but I would rather see the gasoline 1.3i i-DSI in US-market base trim. It wouldn't offer as high mileage as this rumoured Fit Hybrid, but it would be cheaper in terms of initial cost and overall maintenance. Despite the $12k price quoted in the articles, there is no way it would be that cheap in the US. Hybrid premiums will drop as the technology becomes more mainstream, but it will still be more expensive than the gasoline-only models.
I also like to shift my own gears, and I have noticed that all hybrids (except for Insight?) have automatic transmissions only. This is a big minus IMHO.
Let's see - $1500-$1800 more. 1.0L engine with the same power and useability as the current 1.5L engine.
You do the math - that's essentially 33% better gas mileage, or something in the insight's range. 32/38? Try 45/55mpg or thereabouts. I'd certainly buy one. Figure 80 cents a gallon approximate savings($2.40 gas). $1800(high estimate)/80 cents=2250*35 mpg=78,750 miles to start seing a profit. That's an order of magnitude better than a Prius, and moreso if gas is $3 a gallon. At $1 difference/saved per gallon, that's a bit over 60K miles to pay it off.
TOKYO, Japan, February 23, 2006 - Honda Motor Co., Ltd. announced the introduction of the new ZEST minicar, created to enhance the active lifestyles of today’s consumers and provide comfort and utility for the entire family. The ZEST delivers superior power and performance, while its efficient low-floor design and generous storage area with a convenient access bay help give it class leading spacious cabin. The new ZEST will be available for sale through Honda’s automobile dealer network in Japan starting March 1. Further, a ZEST equipped with a tilt-up sliding front passenger seat and wheelchair-accessible models will be available starting March 17.
The ZEST was developed as a minicar that can satisfy both individual and family users in a variety of occasions including daily shopping and weekend leisure activities. The key to the design of the ZEST is Honda’s unique low-floor platform technology, which results in a high-capacity storage area with a maximum of 739 liters of space accessed via one of the lowest tailgates in its class. In addition, ZEST achieves a spacious cabin with a height equivalent to StepWGN. The ZEST features Honda’s i-DSI engine or i-DSI turbocharged engine, combined with a 4-speed electronically controlled automatic transmission to deliver strong and smooth performance in accelerating from low and medium speeds to higher speed ranges.
The ZEST also offers a full range of advanced safety features. In addition to being the first minicar to be equipped with a front and rear side curtain airbag system, the ZEST also features Honda’s Advanced Compatibility Engineering (ACE) body for significantly enhanced self-protection and damage mitigation in vehicle-to-vehicle collisions. Regarding environmental performance, all FWD models have earned Japanese Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport certification as Low-Emissions Vehicles, with emission levels 75% lower than those required by 2005 standards, while some models meet or exceed Japanese government fuel economy standards for 2010 by 5%.
The ZEST also comes fully equipped with a range of advanced features for enhanced passenger comfort and peace of mind, including Honda’s HDD InterNavi system; newly-developed high-performance deodorizing air cleaning filters treated with anti-allergenic materials to control pollen and other allergens; and a security alarm and immobilizer for effective anti-theft protection.
= = =
Check-out the handicapped-accessible front passenger seat:
"ZEST" makes me think of lemons, which in a car, is not good! :lemon:
It's interesting to note that they're going with an automatic tranny, instead of a CVT in this car... maybe Honda is backing off on the CVT in more than just the Fit?
I thought I read somewhere that the Civic Hybrid model loses the abilty to drop the rear seat down. Since they have to put the battery bank somewhere, I don't see where they could implement a Hybrid version of the Fit, and not lose the magic seat functionality.
I would rather keep my magic seats, and go with a lower-powered engine and a 5 or 6-speed manual tranny, to squeeze out as much mileage as I can, myself.
I don't think any of Honda's kei cars use the CVT. The Life, Zest, That's, Vamos, etc. have regular automatic transmissions. In fact, the That's has a 3 speed automatic :surprise:
Interesting that they introduced this car. I didn't think there was that big of a market gap between Life and That's. I wonder if it will eventually replace That's.
" would rather keep my magic seats, and go with a lower-powered engine and a 5 or 6-speed manual tranny, to squeeze out as much mileage as I can, myself." A 1.3i i-DSI with 6-speed manual. That would be awesome!
I have an M3, a WRX STi and a 300C SRT 8. To me, those are "sporty", but not "sports cars." ------------------------------------
A car must be over 30k to be sporty? I think the Mini Cooper S is sporty, the Neon SRT4 is sporty, a Mustang GT is sporty. Just about any car with a performance enhanced engine and suspension is sporty. An Altima SER is sporty. A PT Cruiser GT turbo is sporty. Most turbos are sporty.
I think it just miffs some people when a mid 20s car can perform as well or better than their 40k "prestige ride."
I thought early on that I kept reading that Fit had an ACE body structure. Now, the only current car that I always see ACE referred to is the 2006 Civic.
think hybrids are great, but I would rather see the gasoline 1.3i i-DSI in US-market base trim.
However, the weak power of the L13A i-DSI engine rules it out for the US market.
I think the IMA Fit will likely be in this configuration:
1. It will be based on the second-generation Fit, since the new model can be designed specifically to accommodate the IMA drivetrain.
2. It will use a 1.0-liter engine (probably a modernized version of the Insight engine) with the same SOHC i-VTEC valvetrain from the 1.3-liter 2006 Civic Hybrid engine that will allow deactivation of all four cylinders in certain modes for battery only operation. The engine will be rated at 80 bhp (SAE 08/04 net).
3. The electric motor will offer 25 bhp (SAE 08/04 net) of power assist. Due to its design, the only transmission choice will be CVT automatic, the same as the 2006 Civic Hybrid.
4. The battery pack will use Toshiba's new fast-charging Li-On battery design, which will allow Honda to use a very small battery pack.
5. The battery pack will likely be located under the rear seats, which means no "Tall" mode for the seats in the back.
no a car does not have to be expensive to be sporty and yes I would agree that the cars you mentioned are sporty, but the Fit is not even at the same level or even close to the cars that you mentioned. And no it doesn't miff me that car in the mid 20s can perform as well as som more expensive cars, because Japan has been doing it for decades. BUT Iif you were refferering to me with the prestige ride comment, I'm sorry but for starters the STi is NOT 40 grand and it kills most cars,....and secondary I'd like to see you find a car in the 20s that can "as well or better" than an M3 or SRT 8.....unless you've driven these two cars you cannot comment....I'm fully aware that you don't need to spend luxury money to buy a sporty or good performing car, like I said Japan has been making them for years. But there is HUGE difference between the Fit and the cars you used to back your sporty case.
If the battery pack is under the rear seats, that also means that Utility and Long mode are out of the question, since the entire rear seat unit sinks down into the space of the rear foot well. Only Refresh mode would remain and 3/4 of the "magic" would be gone.
Actually, if you look at the seats, the seat bottoms are only lifted up to get the "Tall" mode. All the other modes involve moving the seat backs; as such, this means even if the battery pack is under the rear seat bottoms both "Long" and "Utility" modes are unaffected.
My guess is that they would merely cram the batteries under the passenger seat, like they do with the gas tank(under driver's seat/floor) - or because it's a 1.0L engine - cram them in the very rear or in the engine compartment itself(6-8 batteries isn't so huge)
Actually, if you look at the seats, the seat bottoms are only lifted up to get the "Tall" mode. All the other modes involve moving the seat backs; as such, this means even if the battery pack is under the rear seat bottoms both "Long" and "Utility" modes are unaffected.
Watch the japanese web site magic seats demo closely - In the rear seat down /flat floor modes the lower seat cushion drops FLAT to the floor - lower than if it's in the seating mode... There goes your battery space...
"All the other modes involve moving the seat backs; as such, this means even if the battery pack is under the rear seat bottoms both "Long" and "Utility" modes are unaffected."
However, the space underneath the rear seats is only there so the lower part of the seat can sink down all the way to the floor. In fact, there is a sticker somewhere that says you can't put items underneath the seat and then use Utility or Long. When you start to move the seat back forward, the seat cushion starts to sink down. That's how you can get such a nice, low surface.
Honda wouldn’t place the battery pack under the seats, not without ensuring a heat dissipation system. If it were to happen, the batteries will go somewhere in the cargo space.
And even if Honda did manage to place it under the seat, only the magic seat functionality will be lost. And that should be fine with folks who wouldn’t care for it. Not all cars have it anyway. For those that do, they could always get the non-hybrid version.
The video was fun to watch especially the way car handled the corners, and the bits about the chassis itself.
Does Fit have ACE?
No. Fit was launched 5.5 years ago, and ACE body structure came in later.
What's the big deal about a hybrid? They just don't make economic sense.
There are a lot of things that make no economic sense, including a getting a new car itself. Many seem to make a big deal out of $2K that IMA adds to the price of the car, but these same people may not have trouble suggesting $2K worth of fancy options that will never make sense economically (like heated leather seats, xenons, moon roof, and throw in 16-17 inch rims as well).
For that matter, higher trims of any model NEVER compensate for the dollars you pay as a premium, hybrids do! The hybrid appeal doesn’t always boil down to initial cost, or how long it might take to recuperate the premium, if it will ever. It is also about what you want, and how much you want to spend on a regular basis as opposed to writing a check at the dealership total cost of ownership (or TCO as Edmunds calls it).
And for those who still don't care... lesser trims are not going to be taken away just because there is a hybrid version.
I certainly would be interested by the hybrid version if it's as cheap as rumored. It would almost be more to get a 1.0 liter engine in North-America than for the IMA, but if it adds start-stop and AT-PZEV emissions, that would be awesome.
Being able to park free and use the carpool lanes... nice bonus. Better mileage than a Prius and 5K less out of my pocket. Based upon the mileage figures I saw, it should be(assuming $2.80 a gallon gas here in CA, soon) - 40% better mileage, or a savings of ~75 cents a gallon - every 35 miles. Given the $1800 projected price difference of the hybrid version, that's about 75-80K miles to recover the cost, plus being able to use HOV lanes and so on. The Prius, btw, is over 250K miles to recover the cost difference, at which time you need new batteries - and twice as many as the Fit will need, at that.
I'm thinking now that I'll wait till next year and get the 50mpg hybrid instead.
I don't understand why people go so nuts over hybrids. They generally cost a lot more and the payback time in gas savings and the cost of replacement batteries just do not make them a very good economic deal. Now if car makers ever came out with a hybrid that was close to or cheaper than the "regular" version, they'd make sense. The article that some people in this forum had links to suggested that the hybrid fit would start at $11,800. I have serious doubts about that price possibility. Does that include wheels? Ha! Now if Honda brought over a smaller engined version of the current Fit to the US in a DX version (basically stripped with maybe just air conditioning included), wouldn't it get 45-50 mpg on the highway and be close to the Fit hybrid's gas mileage? Of course it would. Why don't we get that choice here in the US? Because car makers can made far more money off of a hybrid. I can't blame them since they're in business to make money but it sure is frustrating. I know that many of you don't want a stripped Fit with a smaller engine, but there IS a market for it here in the US, believe it or not. Come on Honda, give us that choice and you can market the heck out of it...."we sell the highest mileage non-hybrid gasoline engined car on the road"!
"The article that some people in this forum had links to suggested that the hybrid fit would start at $11,800. I have serious doubts..." That is the rumoured estimate for the JDM version where the cheapest Fit (the 1.3Y) starts at ¥1,123,500 or about US$9,600. However, a USDM version of this vehicle would probably be well-equipped like the Civic and Accord hybrids and not sold as a stripped vehicle. I am guessing between $16-$18k for the US market.
"Now if Honda brought over a smaller engined version of the current Fit to the US in a DX version (basically stripped with maybe just air conditioning included), wouldn't it get 45-50 mpg on the highway and be close to the Fit hybrid's gas mileage?" The 78 hp L12A i-DSI equipped only with a manual transmission gets 50 mpg in extra urban (highway) driving by European standards. Honda won't sell that in the US though. I personally think it would be neat to see the L12A or L13A in the US Fit, but it's not going to happen.
"Because car makers can made far more money off of a hybrid." Actually, when hybrids were first introduced to the US market, the companies were actually losing money on each hybrid. I don't know how much that has changed, but hybrids are not the "cash cows" of the automobile industry.
Any chance North American car makers want to get hybrids to market ASAP to put distance between themselves and the Chinese, who will be entering the NA market soon?
"that's about 75-80K miles to recover the cost, plus being able to use HOV lanes and so on. The Prius, btw, is over 250K miles to recover the cost difference, at which time you need new batteries - and twice as many as the Fit will need, at that."
Except that nobody buys a car to save money, and you don't get anything for free. You have to pay more if you want a sunroof, a bigger engine, a better stereo, alloy wheels, etc, and none of those things are expected to pay for themselves, so why does everything seem to think that an advanced hybrid drivetrain should be had for free or pay for itself quickly?
I think that you are missing the main motivation with a Hybrid. Almost ALL Hybrid sales we make are for mainly enviornmental reasons. Yes fuel economy and the tax breaks are great, however, Hybrid buyers are very concerned with the enviornment, and do put their money where their hearts are.
Assuming away any cost difference, is a hybrid's overall environmental impact better? Or has the environmental burden just been shifted? For example, I hear that there are problems with battery disposal.
Focusing on just one measure (gas mileage/emissions of the car in this case) can be misleading.
It happens all the time. Look at low-fat foods. To make them palatable, manufacturers put in all sorts of junk. Overall: 'Low fat', yes, 'more healthy', no.
Being I keep cars for a long period of time I don't see any sense in getting a hybrid that will need new batteries at some point. My current commuter car has 200k+ miles. Why spend major money to replace the batteries in a vehicle that will have little value by that time? Also keep in mind that dealers will be getting a premium for this car for some period of time. Batteries are self contained haz mat sites so what do you do with them when they are finished? Stick them in a landfill? That is what used to happen with electric fork truck batteries. it will be interesting to see a solution for this problem.
At one time I figured that to make a Hybrid "pay for itself" you need to have gas at $4-5 per gallon. If it is pure economy then you get the least expensive car with the highest fuel economy and drive the wheels off of it.
You miss the point. If the hybrid uses a small pack that costs $500-$1000 to replace and it's priced for only $2K more, then it's a winner.
You essentially get a 4-door 5 passenger Inisght. For $15K in base trim with no options. *blink* That's an astounding deal. 50mpg average, HOV lane access, and yes, I completely forgot about the 2K tax rebate! The first year tax incentive alone pays for the entire hybrid option! Oh - and cry me a river if I don't pay those bums in D.C. any more of my money than I have to. Not like they actually are spending any of it locally anymore.
Sure, you'll need new batteries down the road, but if the payback is, say, 70K miles, and the batteries last 150K, then you've just saved $2000 in fuel, which more than pays for the replacement pack/batteries(about twice their cost, actually)
But if it's big like the Prius, then you get 300K to break even, and 2-4K for replacement batteries at 200K, or never ever actually saving money.
As for batteries, in California, they mandate that all car batteries be properly disposed of at recycling facilities. Their ability to control a fixed facility's pollution is infinately better than a million tailpipes(this also goes for electric power, too). IIRC, almost every state now has simmilar programs, so batteries aren't the risk they once were.
Shifting the environmental burden is a good thing. MBTE and other additives in gas alone - the less we put in our environment the better. NiMH batteries also are pretty friendly and easy to dispose of as opposed to Ni-Cad and fuel cells.
"I completely forgot about the 2K tax rebate! The first year tax incentive alone pays for the entire hybrid option!" $2k tax rebate, or tax credit. I thought you just get to stick on $2000 for deductions or whatever. I didn't think you actually get $2000 check from the government. I could be wrong though...
I agree that the Fit Hybrid would be more cost effective in the long run compared to a Prius, but I still think a smaller-engine Fit would be the cheapest way to go in higher efficiency.
raychuang, in regards to a previous post about the 1.3i i-DSI being too small, now that I think about it, I disagree. I still think the L13A would be fine for the US. Don't forget that as recently as 1990, the base Civic had a 70 hp engine. If you consider the power-to-weight ratio, that means 30 lb/hp while a US-market Fit 1.3 would be 29 lb/hp. Sell that as a 5-speed manual and with the wide high-power range, it would accelerate fine. It's not American roads or driving habits that are the problem, it's many Americans perception of power.
If I could get a real world 70mpg (yeah; I know they claim over 80, but the evidence is that hybrid numbers are way off) with all the functionality of the Fit, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
BTW: What if gas goes to $5/gal? or $7? or $10? :surprise:
Honda has to keep up with Toyota. Toyota is kicking everyone's butt when it comes to hybrids. Honda has to have a flagship hybrid (like Toyota's Prius)--even if it means losing dough on it for a while.
Honda used to by known as the "green" car company for its high-mileage, low emission cars. Toyota has stolen that crown away. Honda needs to get it back.
I think a Fit hybrid would be the perfect vehicle to challenge Toyota. If it really got 70+ mpg, they would fly, just fly, out the door here in CA.
Cheap to buy. Super-high mileage. Space and practicality. HOV lane access. Environmental cachet.
I agree. In 1970, I bought a new Simca 1204 (same as the European-sold Simca 1100, but with a 1204cc USA-spec engine). Only 1.2L Inline OHV 4 with a single Solex carb/4-speed manual and putting out around 60HP with a 35lb/HP rating. This was back in the days of the higher speed limits on the freeways, and as our main family car, the Simca did just fine. I never missed the Oldsmobile with the 425 cubic inch V8 engine the Simca replaced either, even in the days of 30 cents per gallon gas!
"Honda used to by known as the "green" car company for its high-mileage, low emission cars. Toyota has stolen that crown away. Honda needs to get it back."
Admitedly, Toyota has the edge on hybrids, but I don't know if I would go calling them "greener" than Honda. Especially now with the massive Tundra that will have a giant engine and a 10,000 pound towing capacity. That kind of excess is disgusting, and in my opinion for each one of those they produce it will cancel out each "good deed" they did by selling a Prius.
Rather than Honda taking the "green" title, I think Toyota is going to hand it over on a silver platter...or maybe the bed of a new Tundra.
I would be a little suprised if the mpg of the new tundra was significantly more than the Ridgeline. I think it has a six speed automatic tranny or something, and probably is an effecient engine in general. There Avalon even gets more than 30 mpg and it's 268 hp and brings the big car to a 14 something second quartermile time. What toyota engine gets terrible gas mileage in comparision to any other manufacturer. Besides, some people do actually have to tow stuff. Boats, snowmobile, whatever....even some Chevy's or remarkable good on mpg, like the new Malibu with the 3.5. It averaged 28 mpg combined, that's better than most econo cars and it has 200 hp. sorry for the partially coherent rambling, not trying to piss anyone off
The new tax regs for 2006 provide a tax credit for hybrids, not a deduction. The amount of the credit depends on the fuel economy of the car. For the Prius, it's $3150 I think. But it holds only for the first 60,000 hybrids sold by an automaker in the year. If this law is in place when the Fit hybrid debuts, it could mean the entire hybrid premium is taken care of. Unless, of course, you qualify for AMT, in which case you don't get the credit.
Automobiles have probably wrought more environmental destruction than any other single device in the history of humans. It is oxymoronic to link the words car or car company and "green".
The point I was making was that Honda was perceived to be the "green" car company, but now, with the Prius and other hybrid models, Toyota has taken over as being perceived as being the "green" car company.
It's for purely selfish motives that I want Honda to be more "green": Survival. I hope they come out with a hybrid Fit soon. My Honda has 220K on it. And I need four dours.
My dream car: A biodiesel hybrid Fit. That would be awesome. Otherwise, to get a truly "green" vehicle: buy a bike.
But, we're talking cars, not bicycles. And then, walking would be "green" (as long as you don't kill the vegetation ).
"Green" is relative here. Toyota has marketed itself to be seen green, but that doesn't make it one.
I'm looking forward to Fit Hybrid... to see what it could do. As for biodiesel hybrid, that may not be a far fetched idea, if Honda thinks if its HCCI design is ready for production!
I had two Simca 1204s. They sounded like a sewing machine, nice seats and rode like a Cadillac with torsion bar suspension. 30 mpg always.
One needed a head gasket for many miles in the mid 70's when gas was going up for the first time. My friends called it the "Simca Steamer". I used to joke that it burned more water than gas.
Next car I really loved was an '84 Civic Wagon. Drove it 17 years. I'm hoping the Fit will renew the affair.
Comments
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 03 Montero Ltd
They just don't make economic sense. Costs include the added upfront price difference ($$$$), the ongoing maintenance costs (tied to a dealer), battery replacement costs (more $$$$) and higher than average depreciation.
Plus, by waiting, you'll miss depressed prices caused by GM and Ford fighting to keep themselves out of bankruptcy, the benefits of a Japanese made, mature 1st generation Fit with no first year bugaboos and an aftermarket that has been kitting out the same car for years...
I also like to shift my own gears, and I have noticed that all hybrids (except for Insight?) have automatic transmissions only. This is a big minus IMHO.
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 03 Montero Ltd
You do the math - that's essentially 33% better gas mileage, or something in the insight's range. 32/38? Try 45/55mpg or thereabouts. I'd certainly buy one. Figure 80 cents a gallon approximate savings($2.40 gas). $1800(high estimate)/80 cents=2250*35 mpg=78,750 miles to start seing a profit. That's an order of magnitude better than a Prius, and moreso if gas is $3 a gallon. At $1 difference/saved per gallon, that's a bit over 60K miles to pay it off.
http://world.honda.com/news/2006/4060223ZEST/
Honda Announces New ZEST Minicar
TOKYO, Japan, February 23, 2006 - Honda Motor Co., Ltd. announced the introduction of the new ZEST minicar, created to enhance the active lifestyles of today’s consumers and provide comfort and utility for the entire family. The ZEST delivers superior power and performance, while its efficient low-floor design and generous storage area with a convenient access bay help give it class leading spacious cabin. The new ZEST will be available for sale through Honda’s automobile dealer network in Japan starting March 1. Further, a ZEST equipped with a tilt-up sliding front passenger seat and wheelchair-accessible models will be available starting March 17.
The ZEST was developed as a minicar that can satisfy both individual and family users in a variety of occasions including daily shopping and weekend leisure activities. The key to the design of the ZEST is Honda’s unique low-floor platform technology, which results in a high-capacity storage area with a maximum of 739 liters of space accessed via one of the lowest tailgates in its class. In addition, ZEST achieves a spacious cabin with a height equivalent to StepWGN. The ZEST features Honda’s i-DSI engine or i-DSI turbocharged engine, combined with a 4-speed electronically controlled automatic transmission to deliver strong and smooth performance in accelerating from low and medium speeds to higher speed ranges.
The ZEST also offers a full range of advanced safety features. In addition to being the first minicar to be equipped with a front and rear side curtain airbag system, the ZEST also features Honda’s Advanced Compatibility Engineering (ACE) body for significantly enhanced self-protection and damage mitigation in vehicle-to-vehicle collisions. Regarding environmental performance, all FWD models have earned Japanese Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport certification as Low-Emissions Vehicles, with emission levels 75% lower than those required by 2005 standards, while some models meet or exceed Japanese government fuel economy standards for 2010 by 5%.
The ZEST also comes fully equipped with a range of advanced features for enhanced passenger comfort and peace of mind, including Honda’s HDD InterNavi system; newly-developed high-performance deodorizing air cleaning filters treated with anti-allergenic materials to control pollen and other allergens; and a security alarm and immobilizer for effective anti-theft protection.
= = =
Check-out the handicapped-accessible front passenger seat:
http://world.honda.com/news/2006/4060223ZEST/27.html
More photos and details can be found at:
http://world.honda.com/news/2006/4060223ZEST/
It's interesting to note that they're going with an automatic tranny, instead of a CVT in this car... maybe Honda is backing off on the CVT in more than just the Fit?
I would rather keep my magic seats, and go with a lower-powered engine and a 5 or 6-speed manual tranny, to squeeze out as much mileage as I can, myself.
In fact, the That's has a 3 speed automatic :surprise:
Interesting that they introduced this car. I didn't think there was that big of a market gap between Life and That's. I wonder if it will eventually replace That's.
" would rather keep my magic seats, and go with a lower-powered engine and a 5 or 6-speed manual tranny, to squeeze out as much mileage as I can, myself."
A 1.3i i-DSI with 6-speed manual. That would be awesome!
------------------------------------
A car must be over 30k to be sporty? I think the Mini Cooper S is sporty, the Neon SRT4 is sporty, a Mustang GT is sporty. Just about any car with a performance enhanced engine and suspension is sporty. An Altima SER is sporty. A PT Cruiser GT turbo is sporty. Most turbos are sporty.
I think it just miffs some people when a mid 20s car can perform as well or better than their 40k "prestige ride."
Actually - kind of looks like a "honey I shrank the Element"!
:0
Rgds...Heretic
Does Fit have ACE?
However, the weak power of the L13A i-DSI engine rules it out for the US market.
I think the IMA Fit will likely be in this configuration:
1. It will be based on the second-generation Fit, since the new model can be designed specifically to accommodate the IMA drivetrain.
2. It will use a 1.0-liter engine (probably a modernized version of the Insight engine) with the same SOHC i-VTEC valvetrain from the 1.3-liter 2006 Civic Hybrid engine that will allow deactivation of all four cylinders in certain modes for battery only operation. The engine will be rated at 80 bhp (SAE 08/04 net).
3. The electric motor will offer 25 bhp (SAE 08/04 net) of power assist. Due to its design, the only transmission choice will be CVT automatic, the same as the 2006 Civic Hybrid.
4. The battery pack will use Toshiba's new fast-charging Li-On battery design, which will allow Honda to use a very small battery pack.
5. The battery pack will likely be located under the rear seats, which means no "Tall" mode for the seats in the back.
Let me know what you think
http://www.myfit.org/video/vtecclubfit.wmv
Actually, if you look at the seats, the seat bottoms are only lifted up to get the "Tall" mode. All the other modes involve moving the seat backs; as such, this means even if the battery pack is under the rear seat bottoms both "Long" and "Utility" modes are unaffected.
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 03 Montero Ltd
Watch the japanese web site magic seats demo closely -
In the rear seat down /flat floor modes the lower seat cushion drops FLAT to the floor - lower than if it's in the seating mode...
There goes your battery space...
However, the space underneath the rear seats is only there so the lower part of the seat can sink down all the way to the floor. In fact, there is a sticker somewhere that says you can't put items underneath the seat and then use Utility or Long. When you start to move the seat back forward, the seat cushion starts to sink down. That's how you can get such a nice, low surface.
And even if Honda did manage to place it under the seat, only the magic seat functionality will be lost. And that should be fine with folks who wouldn’t care for it. Not all cars have it anyway. For those that do, they could always get the non-hybrid version.
The video was fun to watch especially the way car handled the corners, and the bits about the chassis itself.
Does Fit have ACE?
No. Fit was launched 5.5 years ago, and ACE body structure came in later.
There are a lot of things that make no economic sense, including a getting a new car itself. Many seem to make a big deal out of $2K that IMA adds to the price of the car, but these same people may not have trouble suggesting $2K worth of fancy options that will never make sense economically (like heated leather seats, xenons, moon roof, and throw in 16-17 inch rims as well).
For that matter, higher trims of any model NEVER compensate for the dollars you pay as a premium, hybrids do! The hybrid appeal doesn’t always boil down to initial cost, or how long it might take to recuperate the premium, if it will ever. It is also about what you want, and how much you want to spend on a regular basis as opposed to writing a check at the dealership total cost of ownership (or TCO as Edmunds calls it).
And for those who still don't care... lesser trims are not going to be taken away just because there is a hybrid version.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/02/will_honda_prod_1.php
I'm thinking now that I'll wait till next year and get the 50mpg hybrid instead.
That is the rumoured estimate for the JDM version where the cheapest Fit (the 1.3Y) starts at ¥1,123,500 or about US$9,600. However, a USDM version of this vehicle would probably be well-equipped like the Civic and Accord hybrids and not sold as a stripped vehicle. I am guessing between $16-$18k for the US market.
"Now if Honda brought over a smaller engined version of the current Fit to the US in a DX version (basically stripped with maybe just air conditioning included), wouldn't it get 45-50 mpg on the highway and be close to the Fit hybrid's gas mileage?"
The 78 hp L12A i-DSI equipped only with a manual transmission gets 50 mpg in extra urban (highway) driving by European standards. Honda won't sell that in the US though. I personally think it would be neat to see the L12A or L13A in the US Fit, but it's not going to happen.
"Because car makers can made far more money off of a hybrid."
Actually, when hybrids were first introduced to the US market, the companies were actually losing money on each hybrid. I don't know how much that has changed, but hybrids are not the "cash cows" of the automobile industry.
Except that nobody buys a car to save money, and you don't get anything for free. You have to pay more if you want a sunroof, a bigger engine, a better stereo, alloy wheels, etc, and none of those things are expected to pay for themselves, so why does everything seem to think that an advanced hybrid drivetrain should be had for free or pay for itself quickly?
I still don't understand that one...
Focusing on just one measure (gas mileage/emissions of the car in this case) can be misleading.
It happens all the time. Look at low-fat foods. To make them palatable, manufacturers put in all sorts of junk. Overall: 'Low fat', yes, 'more healthy', no.
You essentially get a 4-door 5 passenger Inisght. For $15K in base trim with no options. *blink* That's an astounding deal. 50mpg average, HOV lane access, and yes, I completely forgot about the 2K tax rebate! The first year tax incentive alone pays for the entire hybrid option!
Oh - and cry me a river if I don't pay those bums in D.C. any more of my money than I have to. Not like they actually are spending any of it locally anymore.
Sure, you'll need new batteries down the road, but if the payback is, say, 70K miles, and the batteries last 150K, then you've just saved $2000 in fuel, which more than pays for the replacement pack/batteries(about twice their cost, actually)
But if it's big like the Prius, then you get 300K to break even, and 2-4K for replacement batteries at 200K, or never ever actually saving money.
As for batteries, in California, they mandate that all car batteries be properly disposed of at recycling facilities. Their ability to control a fixed facility's pollution is infinately better than a million tailpipes(this also goes for electric power, too). IIRC, almost every state now has simmilar programs, so batteries aren't the risk they once were.
Shifting the environmental burden is a good thing. MBTE and other additives in gas alone - the less we put in our environment the better. NiMH batteries also are pretty friendly and easy to dispose of as opposed to Ni-Cad and fuel cells.
$2k tax rebate, or tax credit. I thought you just get to stick on $2000 for deductions or whatever. I didn't think you actually get $2000 check from the government. I could be wrong though...
I agree that the Fit Hybrid would be more cost effective in the long run compared to a Prius, but I still think a smaller-engine Fit would be the cheapest way to go in higher efficiency.
raychuang,
in regards to a previous post about the 1.3i i-DSI being too small, now that I think about it, I disagree. I still think the L13A would be fine for the US. Don't forget that as recently as 1990, the base Civic had a 70 hp engine. If you consider the power-to-weight ratio, that means 30 lb/hp while a US-market Fit 1.3 would be 29 lb/hp. Sell that as a 5-speed manual and with the wide high-power range, it would accelerate fine.
It's not American roads or driving habits that are the problem, it's many Americans perception of power.
If I could get a real world 70mpg (yeah; I know they claim over 80, but the evidence is that hybrid numbers are way off) with all the functionality of the Fit, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
BTW: What if gas goes to $5/gal? or $7? or $10? :surprise:
Honda used to by known as the "green" car company for its high-mileage, low emission cars. Toyota has stolen that crown away. Honda needs to get it back.
I think a Fit hybrid would be the perfect vehicle to challenge Toyota. If it really got 70+ mpg, they would fly, just fly, out the door here in CA.
Cheap to buy. Super-high mileage. Space and practicality. HOV lane access. Environmental cachet.
Honda would be the darling of the CA commuter.
If gas goes to 5-7 per gallon...none of us will be driving much. Most will have serious job cut backs and the economy will take a drastic header.
At that point the topic of the day here will be "Hey...what's the invoice on that 10 Speed bike?"
Admitedly, Toyota has the edge on hybrids, but I don't know if I would go calling them "greener" than Honda. Especially now with the massive Tundra that will have a giant engine and a 10,000 pound towing capacity. That kind of excess is disgusting, and in my opinion for each one of those they produce it will cancel out each "good deed" they did by selling a Prius.
Rather than Honda taking the "green" title, I think Toyota is going to hand it over on a silver platter...or maybe the bed of a new Tundra.
The point I was making was that Honda was perceived to be the "green" car company, but now, with the Prius and other hybrid models, Toyota has taken over as being perceived as being the "green" car company.
It's for purely selfish motives that I want Honda to be more "green": Survival. I hope they come out with a hybrid Fit soon. My Honda has 220K on it. And I need four dours.
My dream car: A biodiesel hybrid Fit. That would be awesome. Otherwise, to get a truly "green" vehicle: buy a bike.
let me know what you think
http://video.howstuffworks.com/player.htm?v=2006_Honda_Fit
"Green" is relative here. Toyota has marketed itself to be seen green, but that doesn't make it one.
I'm looking forward to Fit Hybrid... to see what it could do. As for biodiesel hybrid, that may not be a far fetched idea, if Honda thinks if its HCCI design is ready for production!
One needed a head gasket for many miles in the mid 70's when gas was going up for the first time. My friends called it the "Simca Steamer". I used to joke that it burned more water than gas.
Next car I really loved was an '84 Civic Wagon. Drove it 17 years. I'm hoping the Fit will renew the affair.