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Comments
The Caravan had a "driveability" issue that didn't surface until I was driving home from Pittsburgh to Cleveland in a snowstorm. I limped home in about 7 hours - only to discover that the dealer knew of the problem - and was able to fix it the next day.
The Accord was pretty much flawless, but also a basic 4 cylinder, 5sp manual tranny beast. Still running great at 285k miles!
I liked the Maxima so much that I ignored the forums - took one spirited test drive - and loved it. It had numerous issues for the first three years, including breaking down on the highway (w/ 15k miles) on my way to my best friend's surprise b'day party --- never made it to the party. The driveability issue on it was unbelieveable - With a 5 sp manual, if you were going a steady 10 - 15 mph (as I always was while stuck in construction traffic for its first two years), the rpm's would drop to idle suddenly. The only way to revive them was to completely let off the gas, then punch it down, at which point the car would lurch forward. Couldn't have anticipated that in the test drive! The dealer where I bought the car simply said that it was normal for the car! Luckily, I found another dealer who took it on as a "pet" project and worked w/ Nissan engineers to correct it (it only took about 8 trips) - w/ no loaners!. I believe I was responsible for helping to find the original solution for all of the other sufferers.
I read about some of the early issues on the '05 Odssey - and ignored them. Luckily, I've only experienced some of them, albeit the worst offenders - but still love the vehicle. Not all have been solved one year later. Again, what one dealer called normal, another was willing to call Honda's engineers to discuss. They gave me a loaner and experimented for two days. That problem still exists, but to a much lesser extent.
So now I ask myself - after reading all of these posts in Edmunds incessantly - Why haven't I cancelled the order yet? I guess it's because I'm not really as smart as I think I am. Oh well, maybe I'll get lucky this time! :surprise:
I'd ask the dealer to fix the scratch under the warranty since they admit the defect. If they can't fix the scratch, then replace the steering wheel. If they can't replace the steering wheel then replace the car with one like mine that doesn't have a scratch. I have a feeling they will figure out how to fix a scratch. Good Luck
I can't understand the logic of Toyota making any drastic changes between the '05/'06 models on the one hand and the '07 model on the other, when the engine, transmission, and EPA mileage ratings are all essentially the same.
And the Camry has had throttle-by-wire since 2002, am I not correct?
I'm wondering with alpha01 if this isn't a problem of "car hypochondria," at least as far as the 4-cylinder is concerned.
After read your post, I laughed at myself, too. I had two Accords in 5 years - 01 EX (4 cyl.) and 05 EX-V6 with Nav. Accord always gave me fun of driving. Both car had great interior and great build quality. 01 Accord was a terrific car but a little bit underpower to me. Therefore, I traded it in and got a 05 EXV6. It became a disaster to me.- it was very rough at shifting gears and the my dealer refused to fix it because they claimed it was the characteristic of the car. After 6 months of struggling, my friend told me 07 Camry was coming out in March. At early March, I went to Toyota dealer to check if the new car was in. The first time I saw the car, WOW, I traded in my Accord right away. Not only because of the good reputation about Camry, but also the new style is really attracted to me.
My 07XLE V6 (Japanese build) had 4800 miles on my car. Driving this car to my office every morning is the best time of the day to me. I can't help myself to look at my car every time I park at the garage.
Indeed, there have been some issues discourage the 07 Camry buyer. I had a vibration/shimmy issue at speed of 70 mph. Visited dealer three times, finally they found the problem, replaced with the new Michelin tires (MXV4 Plus) and problem solved. They never told me "This is the characteristic of the car and we don't see any thing wrong". Instead, their tried everything possible to make me happy. I can't describe how happy I am with this car and the customer service is so much better than my Honda dealer.
So, Trust me, don't hesitate, get the car. If something goes wrong (hopefully it won't), Toyota will fix it for you.
Did they ever get the ES330 quirks fixed? Maybe the same fix needs to be applied to the '07 Camry 4 cylinder powertrain..
But my comment was related to the intelligent or adaptive transmission capabilities of certain vehicles. It is sometimes not well understood by our customers, and it is true that occasionally normal operating characteristics are mistaken for "something's not right."
I'll be happy to give further info about this high tech transmission but want to ensure I get the correct information from our tech people first--so stand by. We know we had an issue with our 6-spd auto transmission on the new 07 Camry and are addressing that today with customers that were impacted.
Our Camry sales volume continues at record levels, and customers are reporting exceptional satisfaction with the new design, fit and finish and overall operation. We're also learning about customer preferences and things that they do not particularly like. We do take customer concerns seriously and try very hard to ensure we incorporate those to the extent possible into our voice of the customer business process--including those expressed via these forums.
It is not possible, nor appropriate, for me to discuss individual cases/issues via an Edmunds forum. But the information exchange here is an excellent mechanism for our customers to learn more about what others think and experience with Toyota vehicles, like the Camry. And be assured that we do read, collect and act on this stuff. Communicating directly with us on specific issues related to your Toyota is encouraged, and if a Toyota dealer is unable to resolve a concern satisfactorily, hopefully we can via our Customer Experience Center at 800-331-4331.
Thank you for your suggestions and feedback.
I detailed my situation in post #172 "Re: 2007 Camry SE pauses then goes".
The engine has different HP/Torque figures than those before it. The "Throttle by Wire" is NEW for 07 - this has never been on a Camry before. These factors dictated a "radical" change to the ECU/TCU.
I am a 62 year old mechanical engineer, a federally licensed aircraft master technician, have built, raced, and modified street rods since I was 14, and know a "little bit" about engines, transmissions, and computer control systems. I can state with a certainty that there is no "car hypochondria" in this owners 07 Camry experience. I can also state that the reports I have seen are, for the most part, well detailed, which indicates to me that the posters know and care about their vehicles and driving experience.
This is a real problem that Toyota has to resolve....
Here are the details of the modifications to the 4 cylinder, which aside from NVH reduction are otherwise not readily apparent to the average consumer.
"The 2AZ-FE engine, standard across the Camry grade lineup, is based on the 2.4-liter four-cylinder engine from last year, but is substantially upgraded. This redesign employs optimized intake and exhaust systems, as well as strategies that reduce internal friction and enhance engine-block/crankcase rigidity. The result is improved power output with exceptional fuel economy and reduced noise and vibration levels.
This engine is based on bore/stroke dimensions of 3.48 x 3.78 inches (88.5 x 96mm) for a displacement of 2,362 cc, or 144.1 ci, and develops 158 SAE horsepower. During their revision of the existing engine, engineers boosted the compression ratio slightly to 9.8:1, altered the cam profile and paid particular attention to reducing friction through strategies such as reducing the tension of the piston rings while increasing their tensile strength. Finally, they reduced piston weight, optimized the balance shaft, improved sound insulation performance of the engine cover and improved the engine mounts."
I can't access a Press Relase on a Camry for prior to '06 MY, but I believe the Camry has used throttle by wire since the last generation.
I'm not doubting your expertise as a mechanical engineer, I'm simply doubting the certainty of that statment. Was it really a Toyota engineer, or was it a Toyota technician?
~alpha
Off the top of my head, the hp for the 4-cylinder didn't change much over the years: 157 hp for the 2002-04, 160 for the '05, and 154 for the '06 (this last downgrade was due solely to measuring output via the new SAE procedures). Then, for '07, it's up slightly to 158 hp. (I don't have the torque values in my head, but again, I don't remember any significant changes.)
My wife is 5' 3" and doesn't have this problem in our '04 and '05 Camrys.
No time now, but I'll measure the width of the '07 Camry's head restraints plus some other cars.
Regarding visibility, yes there can be a problem with head restraints, but for me the greater problem by far is the thickness of the A-, B-, and C-pillars, particularly the A-pillar, as this is crucial when making turns at intersections.
Seems A-pillar thickness is growing, possibly because of rollover/roof crush concerns, but also because of styling, where windshields are becoming increasingly (and unnecessarily IMO) sloped.
These changes would require program changes in the ECU/TCM. The changes may not yet be ideal.
~alpha
To sum up, I am not yet willing to make a purchase of a new Camry because of driveability and excessive rear negative camber complaints.
And I still think this transmission issue on the 4-cylinder models is being blown out of proportion.
~alpha
After reading your message, I re-read the info on the 2007 Camry where I picked up the idea that throttle by wire was new to the Camry for 2007, and it was a comment specifically related to a new type of throttle by wire for the Hybrid. I know that throttle by wire was introduced for the 2002 V6 Camry, yet I can't find a reference for when it was added to the 4-cyl, but it was certainly before 2007.
And the fellow who tested my vehicle was an engineer from Toyota, not a local guy. He used a scan-tool to diagnose the operating parameters of the engine while I duplicated the problems. He stated that the ECU/TCU parameters were different from any preceing year.
We don't really "break-in" AI equipped cars, it's more like educating or programming the ecu/tcm to respond to our individual driving habits. There seems to be an acceleration rate that optimizes the shifts ; if it's too slow the trans will hesitate between gears,but give it a few more drops of fuel and the shifts will be almost imperceptable.
It sounds like a bowling ball rolling around in the trunk or like when you move a water bottle (water moving around, slushing back and forth)...in this care fuel bouncing around the tank.
It happens when the car start moving or when stopping.
Do you know what this could be? Is it the tank float?
These transmissions use a number of variables beyond just the throttle angle to infer the driver's intent, and they actually try to adapt their shifting in both the immediate time-frame (quickness of shifts, downshifts, etc.), and to a much lesser extent in the long-term (through learning the driver's patterns and habits).
Our ECT systems act differently based on real-time engine variables like coolant temperature. They also try to infer things like vehicle load or road load issues (by comparing known curves for vehicle acceleration based on throttle angle and gear position, with the actual current rate of acceleration), and they gauge hilly or winding road conditions (using inputs from the stability control system).
Our newer transmissions even look at the rate of change of throttle opening to determine how responsive the driver wants things to be. This is where some of this confusion arises for some of our owners, IMO, because they don't know how, and in what ways, the transmission systems are gauging and reacting to their inputs.
The exact variables are to some extent considered proprietary by our engineers, so we don't state them explicitly. Said another way, if one is just expecting the tranny to shift based on throttle pressure alone, like a good ol' Hydramatic, it may seem unpredictable in practice. I know--I've experienced it myself!
For example, I've noticed in my own driving that if I accelerate briskly (say, when merging onto the 405 here in SoCal), but then reconsider my approach or the available space to merge (often none!), the transmission may have trouble figuring out what I want to do (since I clearly don't know, myself!).
In these cases, the transmission might have been just about ready to do a hard one-gear up shift for acceleration, then thought that I was going to steady-state cruise and done a relaxed two-gear up shift instead. Then, when I, the driver, finally get a game plan together, the transmission may need to snap a hard two-gear downshift to accelerate me into the gap I finally found (or made) in traffic.
Conclusion? I admit to being an unpredictable California driver, and when people like me get behind the wheel of our increasingly more intelligent and sophisticated vehicles, like the Camry, you're going to get unpredictable shifting. I would characterize my wife's driving as quite predictable. She's in love with the '07 Camry--reminds her of the LS400 she had the pleasure of driving years ago when tmsusa worked on the Lexus side!
Sorry for the length of this explanation--but hopeful some here will find it informative and perhaps reassuring. After 20+ years with Toyota, I still never cease to be in awe of the marvels of our vehicle engineering--in this case intelligent powertrains that work to compensate for my sometimes unintelligent driving.
I'm about to become the owner of a fully loaded V6SE (ordered 12 weeks ago - due in next week). I'm a techie at heart, have run quality assurance for a national wireless phone company, and (I'm told) very detail oriented. This leads me to wondering, after your explanation...
What exactly does the tranny learn from the driver & how does it use that information in the future? From your explanation, it sounds like the tranny simply reacts to the immediate set of inputs it is receiving from the various systems.
This leads me to the second question, if my wife typically drives the vehicle, and is a fairly conservative driver, how will the tranny use that input (how will the tranny characteristics vary from the "norm")?
Given that scenario, the third question is: It's now learned my wife's habits, how will it react if I drive it on weekends and drive more "agressively"?
Thanks in advance for your response to this - and more importantly - to your continued presence on this forum. I probably would have backed out of the deal (based on the latest tranny "issue" posted here) if you had failed to "re-surface" after addressing the original tranny issue.
Your explanation is very interesting, however I think when you state "confusion arises for some of our owners" it would be more correctly phrased as "confusion arises for some of our transmissions".
I recently got rid of my 2005 Avalon largely due to the horrible transmission response and "slipping" and general confused state of operation. I had to disconnect my battery for 20 minutes every few weeks just to reset the transmission to a reasonable state of operation! Sometimes a traffic situations requires that one takes reactive and unanticipated actions and if the driver has to factor in the possibility that the transmission won't be OK with this - there is a functional problem with the transmission not the driver. On two occasions, I had to accelerate, decelerate and the accelerate quickly again. The transmission completely "lost it".
I think Toyota have grossly over-engineered and overly complicated their transmissions to the point of negative returns. Toyota's earlier 4-speed non-adaptive units were far superior in their throttle response and smoothness and functioned so perfectly they were invisible.
These new transmissions may be a marvel of vehicle engineering but they are a huge step backward in practice.
In my opinion Toyota need to completely rethink their approach to transmissions.
I will not be buying another Toyota product until Toyota's approach changes - especially considering that competing manufacturers have far better transmission implementations, even if they may be considered technologically less advanced.
Just food for thought.
~alpha
Anyone for Electronically Controlled Steering with Intelligence?
For what it's worth, I had this exact same symptom with my '03 Camry XLE V-6 (which I have since traded). The service manager never could discover the cause. It never seemed to cause any harm. Even though it still occasionally annoyed me, I eventually wrote it off as a YGUTI -- You'll get used to it.
I'm in the trading mode again and like the new '07 Camry design better than my '03, but am following this thread regarding the transmissions before deciding.
If you don't think the Toyota transmission concerns are widespread, google "transmission hesitation" and see whose name comes up over and over again.
I really wish Toyota would address this because I have always liked their products but this is an absolute show-stopper for me, and I speculate, for many others who have been bitten too.
I just can't understand why they continue to deny the functionality and driveability issues and continue along the same path.
Beats me.
Anyway 'nuf said.
Here are the two major ones that I can see-
1) The '07 Camry V6 6A Snap Ring issue
2) The '07 Camry 4 cylinder 5A Adaptive Transmission and Throttle by Wire (in conjunction with the TCM programming), which have some people experiencing sloppy shifting
Of course, these are also separate from the Design issue with the Avalon's 5 speed transmission also used with this V6, and involving the Adapative feature and throttle by wire and software programming interaction issues.
petl, to put your mind at ease, I would make sure to drive the XLE V6 for more than just the few test drive miles, if possible. see if your dealership will allow you an overnight test drive.
~alpha
I really don't trust the google thing. I have no way verifying the complaints. I've seen it on this site and others, it's the same people complaining about the same problem. Heck, some don't even own the car. I sympathize with those who actually have an issue. I will speak with every person on the street who actually own one to get their feedback (if they want to). Maybe I'm living in dreamland, but I don't believe the problem is widespread. That said, I have not purchased yet. I guess I'm playing it safe.
who's fault is it when the user attempts to use a product in a manner not intended or envisioned by it's designers?
that's a tough one.
is it the malibu that has a drive-by-wire steering system. oh that is pretty gratuitous I think. technology for technology sake is a very slippery slope.
in this case, perhaps less is best.
Thank you for the detailed response. But if, during shifting from 3rd to 4th, the engine races up 2,000 rpm without seeming to be in a gear, then the transmission's "intelligence" is not very intelligent. I don't like the way the transmission is behaving.
Our Toyota regional service manager will be looking at my V6XLE Tues. 6/13. If I don't get any satisfaction from his/her assessment, I'm afraid I'm going to have to return the vehicle.
Driving is, primarily, a visual operation. A driver decides how he/she shall react to a situation by viewing all aspects of the situation and deciding on a plan, based on his/her knowledge of the vehicle he/she is driving. Artificial intelligence does not, at this time, see what the driver sees. When the driver decides to have his/her vehicle perform a certain task - like accelerating into a gap in a line of faster vehicles, the driver should expect the vehicle to perform that task in a similiar manner every time, promptly and repeatedly. When artificial intelligence takes over, and it is making decisions on parameters that have nothing to do with what the driver sees and expects, there is a huge problem. That problem could lead to other drivers getting angry and possibly even accidents.
Again, I think this is a safety issue.
I would like to know what TMSUSA can tell us regarding the status of re-mapping the ECU/TCU systems for the 07 Camry, both 4 & 6-cyl.
Except I'm not sure if it's a safety issue.
Another dove into the ground because the pilots inadvertently selected a 3,300 feet per minute descent instead of a 3.3 degree descent.
In a third case, the AFCS on yet another Airbus fought the pilots tooth and nail using the trim because it didn't want to land, causing a crash.
In another example, yet another Airbus crashed because the autothrottle went nuts and drove the plane into a spin.
Since then, Airbus have introduced defeat systems so pilots can reassert control.
Automated overrides may be useful if they only kick in when thresholds are dangerously exceeded, however ultimately the pilot should be flying the plane and the driver should be driving the car.
I guess I'm in the wrong place. Does Edmunds have an Airbus forum?
Mesquite, you mentioned possibly returning your vehicle, are you referring to the lemon law? I am very disopointed with the fact that my car has been parked at the service department longer then it has been in my driveway. If there is another why to have Toyota take back my vehicle other then the lemon law could you please explain.
Hopefully I will not have to go to such lengths, I hope Toyota can fix this problem in a timely manner.
Look, in the time it takes me to create this post (about 5 minutes due to slow typing and an obsession with spelling and grammar), Toyota will have turned sheet metal into about seven (7) beautiful & high quality Camry sedans--over 2,000 every month. We failed in the very early production phase of our new 2007 Camry to ensure quality throughput to our 6-speed auto transmissions. As a result, snap rings were not snapping back into position on a limited number of vehicles. But we are addressing that issue, fixing the cars and working very hard to ensure the highest levels of satisfaction to our customers. We're that not happening on a consistent basis, those 2,000 monthly builds would begin to stack up.
I may have stretched this "intelligent" design concept discussion to the point of seeming to construe that the car thinks and over-rules the driver. Not at all the case. If I had wanted to aggressively force my way into the mass of traffic on the 405 rush hour commute and in the process sideswipe a few competitors' cars, the Camry tranny/The car itself will certainly not over-rule me. Ultimately, I the driver hold the superior intelligence (or lack thereof).
Think about our new cruise control logic and ABS braking systems, to name just two, that step in for us momentarily to keep us safe. Adaptive transmissions--with all of their measurements and logic--do essentially the same. The majority of our customers do truly like that and over time come to expect it from Toyota. For others that find it annoying or are convinced it’s a problem, your comments/input are very important to us.
Thanks for your feedback.
some of this vehicle technology is demand-oriented, but a lot of this is manufacturer "push" technology IMHO. we didn't ask for it. in other cases, i know it's being mandated by the government. but i agree, we are being forced to be experimenters (or is that experimentees?).
perhaps you're a pilot, an engineer, and have been exposed to or very interested in human factors. you wouldn't happen to pilot Boeings or an author for AST magazine?
many of the human factors issues pilots have faced and are facing since cockpits have gone to glass and fly-by-wire - i suspect will become more frequently discussed in these forums.
maybe our hosts need to create a new forum: my ride is no Airbus, but it's getting there. :shades:
What exactly does the tranny learn from the driver & how does it use that information in the future?
This leads me to the second question, if my wife typically drives the vehicle, and is a fairly conservative driver, how will the tranny use that input (how will the tranny characteristics vary from the "norm")?
Given that scenario, the third question is: It's now learned my wife's habits, how will it react if I drive it on weekends and drive more "agressively"?
It was the 2nd best auto I have every driven for as shift patterns. (VW DSG my favorite)
Question to tmusa and others:
Do you think the SE's transmissions are programmed to be more responsive on down shift than XLE's?
I have bought nothing but Toyotas so far in my car-buying life, but I'm starting to waiver based off of problems that seem to be going unfixed.
I had to trade in a 2003 Rav4 because of all the interior rattles and squeaks that never were fixed properly and were a widespread problem throughout the entire 01-05 generation of Rav4s. Toyota could never fix these problems. We will soon see if the new redesign is plagued as well.
I currently have a 2005 Highlander. Great vehicle....except for the "hesitation" issue. I'm sure it's the same thing that's happening with the ES and the Camrys. Adaptive Transmission is a joke IMO. I have a 97 Corolla that does not "adapt" to my driving because it doesn't have to. It's extremely predictable and has smoother shifts in situations that make my Highlander hesitate and lurch awkwardly. This has been a problem in Toyota engines for over 5 years. Where is the fix?
The 2002-2006 Camrys also seem to have interior squeaks and rattles as well. The apparent solution.....wait for the redesign. The current Sienna: same thing here apparently, judging by posts in forums like these.
I have NO problem with first year problems. They happen to the best manufacturers. What I do have a problem with is first year problems that are still a problem in the final year of a design. I am starting to see way too much of that....
Well, I guess with production rates that low, maybe the build quality will be improved!
toyota has to be careful and needs to address this issue immediately. I have a 2004 Quest which had the same symptoms as described. the issue was the same thing, drive by wire and transmisison would not communicate properly at certain times. I haven't had an issue with it in over 18 months now. I guess they finally learned each others' language. Their reputation is what sells their products and you don't want to ruin that.