Well all I'm saying is that maybe it's swell he fixed up Grandma's car and all that, but he shouldn't be getting or expecting any admiration for restoring one of the most ordinary mediocre unattractive cars ever made. There are plenty of very reasonably priced, very worthy collectible cars to fix up, ranging from old Mustang coupes to MGBs--they are attractive, were trend-setters, and dearly loved. Better he had preserved some real automotive history than preserved a car that has no distinction or merit whatsoever. This is not elitist, it's just a demand for some good taste in preservation. All he's done is spent $5,000 to make a car now worth about $750. And a pretty lame car it was, too. It's like erecting a statue to the worst president of the United States (Millard Fillmore???) or the Army's worst coward. It just makes no sense to me.
But...to some, a very few, it may have been special in it's own sense.
Not every collectable, restored car HAS to be something significant like a Mustang or Camaro.
I guess I kinda like the orphans that get restored. I think it would be kind of fun to see that Rambler at a car show after walking through row after row of nice but ho-hum Camaros.
And you are right. From a practical point, it makes no sense whatever.
And perhaps someday Jimmy Carter,and Millard will have their own statutes too.
In my local paper today, there was an ad for a 1973 Vega, 30,000 miles, total resto. Asking $4,500.
Only a cynic would ask if it only had 30K because thats when the engine blew. Wonder how many restored Vegas are out there, unless restored means new tires and a wax job.
Interesting topic, however I am a fan of the "common" car.
Two hundred years from now, industrial anthropologists will be more interested in the Ramblers and Chev. Vegas than a Ferrari or a Rolls Royce. These high volume cars tell more about an era such as color and fabric preferences, volume production tolerances and ergonomic proclivities. The high volume vehicles are what ninety percent of the world drives and tells more about the economic success and failures of a civilization.
However, the thought of Vega or Pinto lasting that long is almost incomprehensible.
The Rambler DOES represent real automotive history. The 1950 Rambler was the first successful, American-made compact car. Its marketing was also unique - it was sold fully equipped and priced within a few dollars of the larger Chevrolets, Fords and Plymouths. This was revolutionary for the time. Until then, the conventional wisdom was that small cars had to be cheap cars. The Rambler broke the mold, and in many ways showed VW and later the Japanese how to succeed in the United States with a small car. Rambler touted its smaller size as a plus. It was sold to people who wanted to buy it for its virtues, not because they couldn't afford anything bigger.
The larger 1956 (and 1957) Rambler was also historically important, as it was the first of what we now think of as "intermediate size" cars. The station wagon version was extremely successful for its time, and played a big role in popularizing this body style. The Rambler's success forced the Big 3 to come out with the Chevrolet Corvair, Ford Falcon and Chrysler (later Plymouth) Valiant. The Rambler thus helped start the process of market subdivision that is still occuring today. For getting people to look at smaller cars, and starting the process of "niche marketing," I would venture that the humble Rambler is far more important historically than most Ferraris, Maseratis and Porsches. (For me, "historical importance" means having an impact on what we drive today.)
Now, is it beautiful? No, although I do find its styling to be interesting. I would venture, however, that it is more interesting than a shovel. I don't know of many shovel manufacturers that have whole departments dedicated to designing their product. We can argue with the final result, and I agree that the styling is far from timeless, but the Rambler was styled well FOR ITS TIME - just check the sales figures. It did what it was supposed to do, and did it well.
Nor do I think that most people can recall who made their shovel. Car owners - and their neighbors - always know what kind of car is parked in their driveway, even when it was a 1957 Rambler.
I'm not a Rambler fanatic. I don't own one and have no desire to own one. But I believe that the collector car market is more than high-priced exotics or high-performance machines. It's about preserving our automotive heritage - the good, the bad and the ugly (or at least the mundane).
If the Rambler were collectible, it would be worth something in the market is all I'm saying. But it isn't, it really, really isn't worth didley. A few people might be fond of them, but the collector car culture as a whole ignores them and will not pay anything for them. So the Rambler is definitely the bottom-feeder on the collector car food chain to put it mildly. It is a car without merit, imagination, engineering, beauty, grace, quality or performance.I think it is one of automotive history's biggest zeros. As for future anthropologists,I have observed that they too are attracted to beauty if they can find it....if you look in museums, it's the most attractive and intricate tools and pottery we see, not the clumsy attempts at a chamber pot. Sentimentality aside, these cars are worthless and it's for a reason....nobody cares whether they are junked or not. I certainly don't, as you can tell. Might as well restore a diaper truck..
Mustang Cobra R---good criteria for collectibility, but the missing ingredient SO FAR is that we don't know if people will get all hot and bothered about them....we can't reliably predict the level of interest......there are plenty of rare cars that nobody cares about. Shelby's new ACCobra landed with a pretty big SO WHAT and a yawn, so maybe the marketplace is already flooded with these "special interest" cars? Time will tell, but I do think the Cobra R will always attract interest.(anything with lots of HP attracts some interest) I think it will depreciate for a while however, like most modern "exotic" machinary does. I wouldn't buy one and garage it if that's what you mean. I'd drive it and enjoy it and then it could probably be sold in 5-10 years without much of a loss. It should be an interesting car to collectors, but they are more fickle and well informed than they used to be. And then another factor...Ford may pump out more of them, which of course hurts collectibility. I rather doubt they'll make 500 only.
Not that I hate them, but this discussion reminds me that in the '60s and later, car nuts considered the Rambler the ultimate uncool car. I'm sensing that Shiftright shares this feeling. Actually there were some interesting Ramblers--at least I think so--including the '57 Rebel, the first American sports sedan (just kidding, Shifty).
I think the '57 has "interesting period styling" as they say when they can't think of anything else to say. I see an early 60s Rambler American around town that looks like the box the car came in, but it's kind of nice to see a survivor. Would I want one or drive one? Heck no. One 4-door Corvair in high school was enough uncoolness to last me a lifetime. I'm still compensating for that one.
Were both stars in the late 50's.... Lucille Ball had many followers, just as Rambler did, and she was very good at what she did, just as Ramblers were.....
But Marilyn....ah, Marilyn... not as good a comedian as Lucille Ball but what a beauty!
Whose photos bring more money?
That's the point here. Not that Ramblers are without virtues, or historical value, but who if you can only have one restorable car in your garage (or museum) or one picture on your bedroom wall, which will you choose?
In the town where I live is a XXX drive in. I think it may be the last one and given our real estate values, I always wonder how they can stay in business.
Anyway, in the summertime, every Saturday night, the place attracts scores of nifty old cars.
Last summer, one of those cars was a VERY original, unrestored 1959 Chevy Wagon.
Memories of summer camps, swim meets and family picnics came flooding back...This car represented mainstream USA like few others could.
Hot dogs, apple pie, baseball etc...
It had the lowly 283 with Powerglide as most did and was nothing special in the eyes of most.
Still, it kinda brought me back to a different, easier time.
I'm pretty sure Shifty wouldn't have liked it, but can anyone else understand why it brought a smile to my face?
Actually, the fact that it's a Chevy already makes it about ten stories higher than a Rambler.
You know, if you lower the discrimination net, the "collector car filter" if you will, to include Ramblers, you might as well include everything and call it a "classic", including King Midgets and lawnmowers. You need some sort of standards in any hobby.
What I think you really saw was "old man fixes up used car". I can live with that description, but to say he restored a classic, that makes me choke. It really doesn't serve history to say one thing is as good as another.
I would also choke to hear that Ramblers have any historical significance...I'd really like to know what that could possibly be.
I think only people who hated cars and driving bought Ramblers. (a function later taken over by Volvo).
I think that the Cobra is a shoe in for collectible status, but the Z06 is actually the better car. It is faster on the track, Has air conditioning, and is comfortable. Unfortunately the Cobra's limited production status will probably mean that it will have higher value in the future. It reminds me of the late 80's when the battle between the 5.0 Mustang and the Camaro was raging. All the guys who had 5 liter mustangs thought they had the car to beat. However, my IROC was never beaten by a stock 5.0 Mustang. The perception was that the Mustang was faster even though it wasn't in a lot of cases. Legends are hard to kill sometimes.
Well, legend and myth is part of collecting anything to some degree...but sooner or later, as time goes on, the myths tend to drop away and the facts come out one way or the other.
Limited production is a BIG factor in collectibility....this is why a 350GT Shelby Mustang is worth so much more than a regular production Mustang. If you want to buy a "normal" '65 Mustang, true, you'll pay maybe $15K for a decent convertible, but you'll also have hundreds and hundreds to choose from in your area, and thousands across the country. So only the BEST cars bring the $15-20K, the other rust bucket Mustangs aren't worth anything. BUT even a shabby 350GT can bring good money, because where you going to find another? So you see how limited production lifts the value of the entire line, while mass production only favors the very special examples of a certain car. This is also why it'll be ages (if ever) for modern cars to become "collectibles"...they make too many of them, they're all the same more or less, and they last too long these days.
So a Mustang Cobra R comes out in limited numbers, right? And everbody gets the idea to buy one and garage it, right? And in 5-10 years they're sick of having this unused no mileage car in the garage and they all try to sell it at the same time....and you have too many on the market, so the price doesn't go up. Happens all the time with "limited edition" this or thats.
About the only mass production car I've seen (mass production meaning more than a few hundred) that is bringing *serious* money these days (I define "serious" as approaching $100,000 dollars) seems to be a rare-optioned show condition '57 Chevy convertible. But that has to be an exquisite car matching number car with ALL the goodies, including fuel injection, and all the documents....a 6 cylinder beater with a mysterious past isn't going to cut it.
This sound may sound strange but, does anyone think a Volvo S80 T6 w/a "rare" color would ever be a collectible. Or even a 95 Honda prelude Special Edition.(both in showroom condition of course) Possibly a car that people say "Awwwwww...ohhhhh!!!!!!!!". FYI, there are more NSX's than Prelude SE's. What are your opinions, just dreaming of my chances of owning a collectible.
Hmm...I'd say the chances are non-existant....not to rain on your parade, those are nice cars, but the fact is nobody much cares whether a Volvo pr Prelude is rare or not...they just want to drive it and enjoy it. But it may have some curiosity value, like the old Volvo Bertone coupes..they don't bring big money but people do notice them now and then...what they don't do is take out their checkbooks and write large sums for them. I'd say in 20 years you'd just have aset of nice used cars.
Color or decals or special trim pieces doesn't make for significant "rarity"...for rarity that translates into value, you need special options of a serious nature...special engines, trans, unique suspension mods, like that. Very often, an option is rare because nobody ordered it...so it's rare for the wrong reason...a marketing failure.
Hi Shiftright: I know you are generally pessimistic about small-volume startup cars-but what about the Cunningham venture? They unveiled their cars at the detroit Auto show-the styling looks interesting-but, do you think they can survive? And 9if they don't) what are the chances that the cars will be collector's items?
WE are looking at a 58 Chevy Nomad with the above vin #. she is a 4 door station wagon. Did Chevy make a NOMAD in 58? Does the above vin # match a NOMAD? Is it true that the last 3 digits: "246" indicate that this was the 246 th made? Also may I ask for suggestions on helpful NOMAD web sites? kelfg@aol.com
I've answered the Nomad question in the duplicate post made on this car, but thank you guys for your comments, which are quite correct.
Cunningham.....let's put it this way.....ANY small volume car start up is doomed from the start, so it's just a matter of time how long it takes to die. You might as well stuff your money down a garbage disposal. The casualty rate for this sort of venture is blood-curdling.
That pessimistic note aside, after the company goes out of business, the cars will take theirr place alongside Avantis and Deloreans, etc....."second tier curiosities" with some, but not any great, value and/or interest. It's hard for a car to be a collectible if it has no history...being "different" isn't really enough.
However, let's wish them luck and perhaps they will be the first privately funded startup in some 75 years to defy the odds....one never knows, I guess....let's check in with them in two years.
Yep, stxrx7, the production numbers have a heavy effect on collectibility...very, very few mass-produced cars ever bring big bucks or a "manic" level of desirability---but there have been a few....a '57 Chevy convertible, IF....IF....it has the right equipment on it and the right engine, can bring high dollars...and they made 47,000 or so of those. But given the fact that it took 43 years before these cars started their meteoric climb toward $80,000 ++ (for a fuel injected, perfect, matching numbers, pristine, over-restored, fully-optioned magnificent model), one wouldn't expect your average TT to be very valuable for many decades to come.
Another "problem" with modern cars is that basically they are all the same when they are made...the list of options is much smaller than in the "old days". At best, you get one or two engines, a few differences in trim, a couple of extra options of no great excitement, and that's it. Cars rarely come in many levels, from "stripper" to "deluxe" anymore.
You can't claim "rarity" based on whether one Audi TT has the "rare" upholstery" or the "special" headrests or whatever...it's not significant enough.
the '85 put the mustang back on the performance car map, also, last of carbureated versions. since this is titled future collectible, the contour sat's may have some collectibility.
...these land behemoths sported RWD with the Corvette V8. These are as big as you can get without buying a stretch limo.
Of course, nobody will be collecting cars made after the mid 70s because they all are throwaway crapmobiles. Well, if you encased one in a solid block of clear plastic, it might last. Try driving it for awhile, the awful fit of the plastic panels as they warp, the shoddy trim pieces that fall off, the cheap plastic interior bits, the primitive computers...they all look nice when fresh, but simple fact is: PLASTIC DON'T LAST.
Mercedes 500E seems a safe bet as a future collectible. Low numbers, pedigree, reliability. I'm not sure if the same could be said for MB C36s or C43s, but maybe.
Also, Mercedes E300 and E320 Cabriolets seem to be good bets for the same reasons as the 500E.
On Cunningham, it is too early to predict any collectible value since who knows if they will even roll out a production car, but I for one am optimistic about their chances. It's a great design, a great idea and has people involved with it who can get things done.
Possibly the cabriolets will have some collector value in the next 20 years, but I can't see the 500E being worth much......first of all it is a 4-door, which is the kiss of death for collectibility, and secondly, they made a lot of them...well over 7,000.
It's tough for these mass-produced cars to achieve high dollar collectibility...case in point, you can buy 1970s era 450SL cabriolets for dirt cheap ($10K-12K); however, the first V-8 3.5 cabriolets from the 1970-71 era are highly collectible....hmmm...why is that? Probably because these 3.5 cabs are a) rare and b) historically significant. I can't say that about the E320 cabriolets. But they will certainly be worth some money...but not a "hot" collectible I don't believe......too common and really not a spectacular car when introduced (what I mean is, the public didn't go nuts over it, like they did with the Gullwing, etc..) This "juice" at introduction is very important for future collectibility, as it builds up a "mythology" about the car.
But too many produced is a killer--witness the Ferrari Testarossa---the prices are still falling, because there are too many on the market. It was Ferrari's first mass-produced car.
A few months ago, I talked about the possibility of buying my best buddy's parents 1982 Dodge Rampage pickup. Since I was dragging my feet, they decided to drop the price to 1000.00 and I bit. They are 84 years old and no longer need two cars.
They bought it new and it has 28,000 miles on it. All original except hoses and belts. Even has the original tires.
I'm going to pay the 600.00 to have it trucked up here.
A future collectable? I doubt it.
I have learned that they made VERY few of these but can't find any exact numbers.
Don't know production numbers but used to go to autocrosses that were held in store parking lots (before everyone was opened on Sundays)back in 1982. There was a guy with a red one, 2.2L. and it was a screamer. Cornered fairly flat and was a lot of fun to watch. Can't remember if it would pick up its inside rear wheel like the Rabbits but it was still a hoot.
They're rare today, even more so 20 years from now. The numbers on them are incredibly low, something like 1/4 the number of BMW M cars. Plus they're Mercedes autos, the rarity and MB star make them a sure bet.
My only concern is the electronics, and I believe this will be the case with all modern cars with all the traction control, stability control, ABS, dual stage air bags, belt pretensioners, on board computers etc. etc., will these components still work in 20 years? Will there be anyone to work on them? The tech will be hopelessly outdated in just 5 years, no one will be making spare parts. I just don't know, I say buy your dream car, drive it, take care of it, and love every minute of it!
In 20 years, these state of the art electronics will be considered so simple you can buy replacement components at radio shack, and built the computers yourself with a book from the public library.
I applaud you guys and your optimism, but at least in the past complicated expensive 4-door cars remain in the toilet as collector cars....what you get with an old AMG sedan is basically a very nice, great handling Lincoln Town Car with Ferrari maintenance costs. Four door just don't make first tier collectibles. Look at Mercedes 6.3s and 6.9s as an example. Collectors run in terror from them, with good reason.
I do think, however, that modern AMG designs are much more tasteful than the old AMG cars, which were pretty awful aesthetically--so that's a plus. And if the car were some kind of AMG coupe or convertible, this might make for a good collectible--but it's going to take 20 years or so, and even then I don't see these as extremely high dollar cars (collector car value in 20 years vs. their current MSRP).
These would be my predictions. I would say the upcoming CLK55Cabriolet will stand the test of time as will, to a lesser extent the CLK55 coupe, both limited production. The CLK430 Cabriolet, a desireable V-8 M/B convertible. The SL600, rare and a V-12. The new M-3 convertible, depending on the production numbers. I also feel the the Buick Reata Convertible, again, nice looking and limited production. The 92 Cadillac Allante with the Northstar engine. The ZR1 Corvettes and Dodge Vipers, the convertibles and especially the GTSs. The new 2002 Ford Lightning P/U. Naturally the Ford Cobra R Mustangs. I would also say the last of the line Chevy Z28 Camaro SS Convertible. All these car are significant in their design, style and exclusivity.
Yes, you have some interesting cars on your list, and as you say, exclusivity is very helpful. I think your list would probably fall into first, second and third tier collectibles. The Reatta and Allante are definitely third tier in my opinion ("collectible" like a Delorean is collectible--that is, sort of and pretty cheap to buy). The Reatta and Allante got off to a bad start as collectibles because they do not have a good reputation, either when new or even now. That hurts future value and kills enthusiasm. Who wants to collect a "loser" (whether true or not, that's the perception) But on the other hand, they are only 10-12 years old, so it's hard to say for sure.
Another thing that hurts collectibility is if the model is still being made in large numbers, so both Camaro and Viper have that problem to overcome. You see boatloads of Vipers for sale in Hemmings, so we must presume the supply equals the demand right now.
It will be really interesting to see if modern Mercedes will hold their value....so far, no MBs past the 1970s cabriolets have reached any respectable numbers, so maybe it will take a good 30 years for these models to become endeared to collectors. Perhaps this is because they are conservative cars in styling and also complex to repair. This is what's killing the V8 SLs of the 70s and 80s right now. An engine rebuilt exceeds the entire cost of the car--ridiculous, huh?
The Allante with the Northstar wa when Cadillac finally got their act together. The Reatta Convertible is quite rare. The last year Camaro Z28 SS convertible will also be quite rare. I do agree with your comment on these vehicles. The Vipers????, although there are many, there were also many Cobras and Shelbys produced. They definitely have a strong following. Look at the hemi powered Mopars, they have gone through the roof. AAR Cudas and big block muscle cars of the late sixties and early seventies, all have increased in value, for clean vehicles anyway. Cars of that vintage had character and bring many of us back to our youth. Style and power seem to be determining factors. Exotics are a whole differnt story altogether. Two cars I forgot to add were the last two years of the Mazda RX7, a real steet racer as well as the 300ZX twin turbo convertible, possibly the last Toyota Supra.
Those things are pouring into dealerships! I've been following the thread and it sounds like more SCs arrived at dealers the past week and half than CLK Cabs in MB dealerships the past year! Don't get me wrong, I do like the new SC, I'd love to have one. But Lexus is going to pour them in until they're sitting on dealer lots like all the other Lexus models, it's in their dealers' and customers' best interest. But it will hurt the value of the cars in the long run, they'll be common, in fact I saw three on the road this weekend in LA. I didn't see a single CLK Cab.
Are we talking about those hardtop convertibles with the commercials done in French? If so, those things are gorgeous! I was shocked to see Toyota of all people get it right and make a car that good looking! Just, please tell me they made it RWD. If they did, I'd have to give them credit for making the perfect car!
Yes it's RWD, it based on the GS430 running gear. I'm sure it is an awesome car. I hear a lot of MB fans crying that it's a rip-off of the SLK, but while it's very similar from some angles, when you actually see one it's different enough for me. I guess imitation is the highest form of flattery.
One thing to keep in mind here is that Cobras and Hemi Cudas are much, much rarer than Vipers and Camaros will ever be....you are talking about cars made only in the hundreds, not tens of thousands...so there is a difference in your comparison which will, I think, reflect in future values. For example, a 1970 Hemi Cuda convertible...there were only something like 16 made! Also, Vipers and SS Camaros are all the same car, it's not like you can get vastly different engines, suspensions, etc. Cars today have far few options than in the old days, and this of course makes for less chance of a "rare option" car, like a Hemi engine or a 4-speed used to be.
And oddly enough rarity doesn't always mean valuable....there are plenty of rare cars that are worthless...you have to remember that the reason the Reatta is "rare" is because nobody wanted them......this is a lot different than the Cobra, which everyone wanted. As for Allante, yes, the Northstar engine made for a much better car, but the name "Allante" is on all the cars, both good and bad, and so that's what hurts it. And again, it was a car nobody wanted.
A critical factor (one of many) in future collectiblity is the desirability when it was new...did people go nuts over it in the showrooms? Did the press go wild? Was the car on the cover of Time and Newsweek? You can't say that about Reattas and Allantes and Deloreans....but you can about 55-57 T-Birds and old Vettes and Mustangs.
I am not disputing what you are saying, I am only looking at current cars that my have a following. With robotics and mass production, very few cars made today, sans high priced exotics will attain the speciality of cars like a shelby, a boss or a superbird or a hemi or AAR cuda or certain special edition porsches. Lets not forget race cars with documented histories.
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But...to some, a very few, it may have been special in it's own sense.
Not every collectable, restored car HAS to be something significant like a Mustang or Camaro.
I guess I kinda like the orphans that get restored. I think it would be kind of fun to see that Rambler at a car show after walking through row after row of nice but ho-hum Camaros.
And you are right. From a practical point, it makes no sense whatever.
And perhaps someday Jimmy Carter,and Millard will have their own statutes too.
Only a cynic would ask if it only had 30K because thats when the engine blew. Wonder how many restored Vegas are out there, unless restored means new tires and a wax job.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
It wasn't a Belair 2 door hardtop or convertable.
It was simply a 210 2door six cylinder sedan.
Now, growing up, these were much more common than the less affordable Belairs.
It brought back memories since a neighbor had one just like it. It was fun to walk around and admire.
But I'm sure some people said..." Oh...it's only a six" or..."Too bad it'a only a 210"
Well, I loved it and applaud the owner for his efforts.
Two hundred years from now, industrial anthropologists will be more interested in the Ramblers and Chev. Vegas than a Ferrari or a Rolls Royce. These high volume cars tell more about an era such as color and fabric preferences, volume production tolerances and ergonomic proclivities. The high volume vehicles are what ninety percent of the world drives and tells more about the economic success and failures of a civilization.
However, the thought of Vega or Pinto lasting that long is almost incomprehensible.
Only five hundred of those puppies cranked out, serious performance car, and they were all spoken for before they were built?
Any other criterea for a collector car we're missing?
The larger 1956 (and 1957) Rambler was also historically important, as it was the first of what we now think of as "intermediate size" cars. The station wagon version was extremely successful for its time, and played a big role in popularizing this body style. The Rambler's success forced the Big 3 to come out with the Chevrolet Corvair, Ford Falcon and Chrysler (later Plymouth) Valiant. The Rambler thus helped start the process of market subdivision that is still occuring today. For getting people to look at smaller cars, and starting the process of "niche marketing," I would venture that the humble Rambler is far more important historically than most Ferraris, Maseratis and Porsches. (For me, "historical importance" means having an impact on what we drive today.)
Now, is it beautiful? No, although I do find its styling to be interesting. I would venture, however, that it is more interesting than a shovel. I don't know of many shovel manufacturers that have whole departments dedicated to designing their product. We can argue with the final result, and I agree that the styling is far from timeless, but the Rambler was styled well FOR ITS TIME - just check the sales figures. It did what it was supposed to do, and did it well.
Nor do I think that most people can recall who made their shovel. Car owners - and their neighbors - always know what kind of car is parked in their driveway, even when it was a 1957 Rambler.
I'm not a Rambler fanatic. I don't own one and have no desire to own one. But I believe that the collector car market is more than high-priced exotics or high-performance machines. It's about preserving our automotive heritage - the good, the bad and the ugly (or at least the mundane).
Mustang Cobra R---good criteria for collectibility, but the missing ingredient SO FAR is that we don't know if people will get all hot and bothered about them....we can't reliably predict the level of interest......there are plenty of rare cars that nobody cares about. Shelby's new ACCobra landed with a pretty big SO WHAT and a yawn, so maybe the marketplace is already flooded with these "special interest" cars? Time will tell, but I do think the Cobra R will always attract interest.(anything with lots of HP attracts some interest) I think it will depreciate for a while however, like most modern "exotic" machinary does. I wouldn't buy one and garage it if that's what you mean. I'd drive it and enjoy it and then it could probably be sold in 5-10 years without much of a loss. It should be an interesting car to collectors, but they are more fickle and well informed than they used to be. And then another factor...Ford may pump out more of them, which of course hurts collectibility. I rather doubt they'll make 500 only.
I think the '57 has "interesting period styling" as they say when they can't think of anything else to say. I see an early 60s Rambler American around town that looks like the box the car came in, but it's kind of nice to see a survivor. Would I want one or drive one? Heck no. One 4-door Corvair in high school was enough uncoolness to last me a lifetime. I'm still compensating for that one.
Lucille Ball had many followers, just as Rambler did, and she was very good at what she did, just as Ramblers were.....
But Marilyn....ah, Marilyn... not as good a comedian as Lucille Ball but what a beauty!
Whose photos bring more money?
That's the point here. Not that Ramblers are without virtues, or historical value, but who if you can only have one restorable car in your garage (or museum) or one picture on your bedroom wall, which will you choose?
Most people don't choose Lucy or Ramblers.
In the town where I live is a XXX drive in. I think it may be the last one and given our real estate values, I always wonder how they can stay in business.
Anyway, in the summertime, every Saturday night, the place attracts scores of nifty old cars.
Last summer, one of those cars was a VERY original, unrestored 1959 Chevy Wagon.
Memories of summer camps, swim meets and family picnics came flooding back...This car represented mainstream USA like few others could.
Hot dogs, apple pie, baseball etc...
It had the lowly 283 with Powerglide as most did and was nothing special in the eyes of most.
Still, it kinda brought me back to a different, easier time.
I'm pretty sure Shifty wouldn't have liked it, but can anyone else understand why it brought a smile to my face?
You know, if you lower the discrimination net, the "collector car filter" if you will, to include Ramblers, you might as well include everything and call it a "classic", including King Midgets and lawnmowers. You need some sort of standards in any hobby.
What I think you really saw was "old man fixes up used car". I can live with that description, but to say he restored a classic, that makes me choke. It really doesn't serve history to say one thing is as good as another.
I would also choke to hear that Ramblers have any historical significance...I'd really like to know what that could possibly be.
I think only people who hated cars and driving bought Ramblers. (a function later taken over by Volvo).
It reminds me of the late 80's when the battle between the 5.0 Mustang and the Camaro was raging.
All the guys who had 5 liter mustangs thought they had the car to beat. However, my IROC was never beaten by a stock 5.0 Mustang.
The perception was that the Mustang was faster even though it wasn't in a lot of cases.
Legends are hard to kill sometimes.
Limited production is a BIG factor in collectibility....this is why a 350GT Shelby Mustang is worth so much more than a regular production Mustang. If you want to buy a "normal" '65 Mustang, true, you'll pay maybe $15K for a decent convertible, but you'll also have hundreds and hundreds to choose from in your area, and thousands across the country. So only the BEST cars bring the $15-20K, the other rust bucket Mustangs aren't worth anything. BUT even a shabby 350GT can bring good money, because where you going to find another? So you see how limited production lifts the value of the entire line, while mass production only favors the very special examples of a certain car. This is also why it'll be ages (if ever) for modern cars to become "collectibles"...they make too many of them, they're all the same more or less, and they last too long these days.
So a Mustang Cobra R comes out in limited numbers, right? And everbody gets the idea to buy one and garage it, right? And in 5-10 years they're sick of having this unused no mileage car in the garage and they all try to sell it at the same time....and you have too many on the market, so the price doesn't go up. Happens all the time with "limited edition" this or thats.
About the only mass production car I've seen (mass production meaning more than a few hundred) that is bringing *serious* money these days (I define "serious" as approaching $100,000 dollars) seems to be a rare-optioned show condition '57 Chevy convertible. But that has to be an exquisite car matching number car with ALL the goodies, including fuel injection, and all the documents....a 6 cylinder beater with a mysterious past isn't going to cut it.
What are your opinions, just dreaming of my chances of owning a collectible.
Color or decals or special trim pieces doesn't make for significant "rarity"...for rarity that translates into value, you need special options of a serious nature...special engines, trans, unique suspension mods, like that. Very often, an option is rare because nobody ordered it...so it's rare for the wrong reason...a marketing failure.
The 92-95 Preludes turned out to be a love it or hate it design anyway.
But...hey...we have one if you want to test your theory!
Also may I ask for suggestions on helpful NOMAD web sites? kelfg@aol.com
Not even close to the 55-57's!
Cunningham.....let's put it this way.....ANY small volume car start up is doomed from the start, so it's just a matter of time how long it takes to die. You might as well stuff your money down a garbage disposal. The casualty rate for this sort of venture is blood-curdling.
That pessimistic note aside, after the company goes out of business, the cars will take theirr place alongside Avantis and Deloreans, etc....."second tier curiosities" with some, but not any great, value and/or interest. It's hard for a car to be a collectible if it has no history...being "different" isn't really enough.
However, let's wish them luck and perhaps they will be the first privately funded startup in some 75 years to defy the odds....one never knows, I guess....let's check in with them in two years.
Another "problem" with modern cars is that basically they are all the same when they are made...the list of options is much smaller than in the "old days". At best, you get one or two engines, a few differences in trim, a couple of extra options of no great excitement, and that's it.
Cars rarely come in many levels, from "stripper" to "deluxe" anymore.
You can't claim "rarity" based on whether one Audi TT has the "rare" upholstery" or the "special" headrests or whatever...it's not significant enough.
Of course, nobody will be collecting cars made after the mid 70s because they all are throwaway crapmobiles. Well, if you encased one in a solid block of clear plastic, it might last. Try driving it for awhile, the awful fit of the plastic panels as they warp, the shoddy trim pieces that fall off, the cheap plastic interior bits, the primitive computers...they all look nice when fresh, but simple fact is: PLASTIC DON'T LAST.
It's called Divorce Barbie.
Same as the regular one except she comes with all of Ken's stuff too!
Sorry...couldn't resist.
Mercedes 500E seems a safe bet as a future collectible. Low numbers, pedigree, reliability. I'm not sure if the same could be said for MB C36s or C43s, but maybe.
Also, Mercedes E300 and E320 Cabriolets seem to be good bets for the same reasons as the 500E.
On Cunningham, it is too early to predict any collectible value since who knows if they will even roll out a production car, but I for one am optimistic about their chances. It's a great design, a great idea and has people involved with it who can get things done.
It's tough for these mass-produced cars to achieve high dollar collectibility...case in point, you can buy 1970s era 450SL cabriolets for dirt cheap ($10K-12K); however, the first V-8 3.5 cabriolets from the 1970-71 era are highly collectible....hmmm...why is that? Probably because these 3.5 cabs are a) rare and b) historically significant. I can't say that about the E320 cabriolets. But they will certainly be worth some money...but not a "hot" collectible I don't believe......too common and really not a spectacular car when introduced (what I mean is, the public didn't go nuts over it, like they did with the Gullwing, etc..) This "juice" at introduction is very important for future collectibility, as it builds up a "mythology" about the car.
But too many produced is a killer--witness the Ferrari Testarossa---the prices are still falling, because there are too many on the market. It was Ferrari's first mass-produced car.
They bought it new and it has 28,000 miles on it. All original except hoses and belts. Even has the original tires.
I'm going to pay the 600.00 to have it trucked up here.
A future collectable? I doubt it.
I have learned that they made VERY few of these but can't find any exact numbers.
It's a 2.2 liter - four speed stick, air cond.
Anybody know any production numbers?
My only concern is the electronics, and I believe this will be the case with all modern cars with all the traction control, stability control, ABS, dual stage air bags, belt pretensioners, on board computers etc. etc., will these components still work in 20 years? Will there be anyone to work on them? The tech will be hopelessly outdated in just 5 years, no one will be making spare parts. I just don't know, I say buy your dream car, drive it, take care of it, and love every minute of it!
I do think, however, that modern AMG designs are much more tasteful than the old AMG cars, which were pretty awful aesthetically--so that's a plus. And if the car were some kind of AMG coupe or convertible, this might make for a good collectible--but it's going to take 20 years or so, and even then I don't see these as extremely high dollar cars (collector car value in 20 years vs. their current MSRP).
Current interest in old AMG cars is very low.
I also feel the the Buick Reata Convertible, again, nice looking and limited production. The 92 Cadillac Allante with the Northstar engine. The ZR1 Corvettes and Dodge Vipers, the convertibles and especially the GTSs. The new 2002 Ford Lightning P/U. Naturally the Ford Cobra R Mustangs. I would also say the last of the line Chevy Z28 Camaro SS Convertible. All these car are significant in their design, style and exclusivity.
Another thing that hurts collectibility is if the model is still being made in large numbers, so both Camaro and Viper have that problem to overcome. You see boatloads of Vipers for sale in Hemmings, so we must presume the supply equals the demand right now.
It will be really interesting to see if modern Mercedes will hold their value....so far, no MBs past the 1970s cabriolets have reached any respectable numbers, so maybe it will take a good 30 years for these models to become endeared to collectors. Perhaps this is because they are conservative cars in styling and also complex to repair. This is what's killing the V8 SLs of the 70s and 80s right now. An engine rebuilt exceeds the entire cost of the car--ridiculous, huh?
Di
And oddly enough rarity doesn't always mean valuable....there are plenty of rare cars that are worthless...you have to remember that the reason the Reatta is "rare" is because nobody wanted them......this is a lot different than the Cobra, which everyone wanted. As for Allante, yes, the Northstar engine made for a much better car, but the name "Allante" is on all the cars, both good and bad, and so that's what hurts it. And again, it was a car nobody wanted.
A critical factor (one of many) in future collectiblity is the desirability when it was new...did people go nuts over it in the showrooms? Did the press go wild? Was the car on the cover of Time and Newsweek? You can't say that about Reattas and Allantes and Deloreans....but you can about 55-57 T-Birds and old Vettes and Mustangs.
With robotics and mass production, very few cars made today, sans high priced exotics will attain the speciality of cars like a shelby, a boss or a superbird or a hemi or AAR cuda or certain special edition porsches. Lets not forget race cars with documented histories.