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Why so few economy cars with manual tranny?

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    ttaittai Member Posts: 114
    If you like to wind your engine up to 8000 rpm, Honda is the way to go. They make such sweet sounds. They're horrid around town at low RPM's though. Toyota just has a good all around package. Mazda is really good at the all around package too.
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    bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    While I agree today's auto trannies are more efficient, I don't believe they're more durable. There are very few 3 speed autos these days, most are 4 or 5 speeds, and there are even a few 6 and 7 speed autos out there. These new trannies are more complex, and with complexity comes more parts. With more parts comes a higher probability of failure rates. It's not a coincidence the most durable passenger car auto trannies ever built were the old GM duraglides. The reason they were so durable is because they only had two gears and they were very simple in design. Today's auto trannies are very complicated and if you don't have them flushed (and I mean completely flushing out ALL the fluid, not just draining part of it) at least every 30K miles, you're more than likely to experience some sort of tranny failure if you plan on keeping the car for 100K miles or more.
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    dakedake Member Posts: 131
    Yeah, I have to call shenanigans on that. The old "moar part iz bad" routine isn't always the case. And I'll take a Toyota auto over a GM auto any day of the week. The full flush every 30k also sounds like dealer gouging speak more than anything based on reality. While there's nothing wrong with getting the service, the transmission is not going to fall out of the car. Now, if you haul trailers or ford streams or even drive in lots of heavy snow for half the year, yeah, it's a good idea. But modern transmissions are no where near as fragile as you're making them out to be.
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    bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    FWIW, I've been doing the 30K flushes for years and I've never had a tranny problem. I've known many people who either drain and replace their fluid (which only changes out 1/4 to 1/3 of the fluid) or doesn't change their fluid at all and they've all had tranny problems. Do what you want, but I'll continue to pay the $100 every 30K rather than take my chances on having to pay several thousand $ in repairs due to neglected tranny fluid.
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    kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    The automatic transmission on the 79 Chevy Silverado I gave my brotherinlaw has 300,000 miles on it and I doubt he even checks the level.
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    bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    That's a non-computer controlled 3 speed. Today's trannies are far more complex with far more parts that can break.
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    kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    I believe it! Its completely insane to have more than three speeds in an auto. Its nuts. Thats why I will always be driving a manual transmission as long as I dont have a congested commute to work.
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    timsehtimseh Member Posts: 24
    "The most important thing you said is:

    3) My wife refuses to learn to drive a standard

    Assuming your wife will sometimes need to drive this car.. get the automatic."

    Personally, I'd see that as a reason to get the stick... :P
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'd guess you've never paid $1300 to replace a clutch your wife ruined.
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    mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    How'd she do that - when learning, or after she supposedly knew how?
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    kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    She put 90k miles on a VW Fox, 125,000 miles on a Saturn SL1, 150k miles on a Honda Accord Station wagon and 100k miles on a Subaru Hatchabck all with manuals. All origional clutches. What a gal!
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    She has driven a stick for years, but never really learned how to properly do it, and has no tolerance for my attempts to help her improve her technique. Shifting. She only fessed up for breaking the clutch after the fact, as I was trying to figure out how it could have been so "abused" as the dealer said it was. Also, my oldest son contributed with some "hard shifts"--again, fessed up to after the fact and after I thought I had taught him how to shift properly.
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    mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Oh well, at least manuals are cheaper than automatics, and even with a clutch replacement they will be about the same cost. I would expect that manuals in economy cars will continue, and maybe increase, with the poor economy and high gas prices.

    Well, I know some people can drive a stick properly, some can't, and some can't (or won't) drive them at all.

    My wife does okay now, but it took forever for her to become decent at it. She still stalls a few times a week, and has said that she could smell the clutch burning a few times in the past year. And smooth starts and shifts are still very difficult for her. I guess that she has no coordination or something when it comes to driving a stick, even though she does understand the concepts very well. It will be interesting to see how long this clutch will last. :cry:
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I am worried that CVTs might begin to edge them out, particularly in smaller less expensive cars and models with high fuel economy.

    The manual is ALWAYS the better choice from a cost and durability POV, in my opinion.

    Was checking out the new Corolla and Matrix last night "in the flesh", and was very gratified to see that the dealer had a very good selection of manuals in both models, especially in the Matrix funnily enough.

    This is a dealer who also always has a wide selection of manuals in the Yaris and Tacoma models too.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    "The manual is ALWAYS the better choice from a cost and durability POV, in my opinion"

    I would not say Always. As I stated in post 215, the driver and his/her skill, or lack thereof, is the variable in clutch life. A driver who just isn't that coordinated, or lacking in knowledge, will kill a clutch prematurely. Depending on how bad they are, it might be better (cheaper) for them to have automatics. Hopefully, my wife won't kill the clutch too soon!

    But it is good to hear that there are lots of manual Corollas and Matrix out there. I still think that the economy and fuel prices will increase the number of manual transmissions on the road.
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Oh well yeah, I was talking from my own personal perspective as someone who has been driving stick for 25 years. Certainly for someone who is bad with a clutch, the automatic would be the better choice.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    bits4brainsbits4brains Member Posts: 11
    I'm getting a 2009 Corolla with a stick. I'm not happy that they aren't available in the LE and XLE trims as those are more what I was looking for. I'm getting an S so I can have options and the stick together.

    I think most of the previous posts cover the main reasons that sticks are less and less common. I tend to think they are important in small cars. I want one because I enjoy driving a stick more and I think it will be more durable and give me a shade better gas mileage. I just feel more engaged and in control of a car when it's a manual.

    On the other hand, my trade-in is a '93 Camry with 267k miles on an original automatic transmission. So I can't really complain that automatics aren't reliable enough.
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    bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    I recently drove two new Civics; one was equipped with the 5 speed auto and the other had the 5 speed manual. I actually preferred the auto because it always seemed to be in the proper gear. With 3 speed autos they're either lugging the engine from being in too high of a gear, or they're over-revving the engine by being in too low of a gear. That's why I never liked autos in the past. Now at least these mega geared autos are MUCH nicer to drive.....if only they could get the durability equal to that of the manuals.
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    ttaittai Member Posts: 114
    Aw man, driving a stick feels like ancient technology to me. Not even F1 drivers drive sticks. I want them to improve the manumatic shifter. I drove sticks since the 80's. No more.
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    cz75cz75 Member Posts: 210
    If you want a manual, buy a Honda. I tried to find some Toyota products once with sticks once upon a time, and found they just didn't make them other than to say they did on paper, for all intents and purposes.

    It's not that hard to find a Honda with a stick, they generally drive and handle better than Toyotas, and seem to have a bit better build quality. Once upon a time, they also looked better than Toyotas, but both companies seemed determined to make their cars uglier, with few exceptions. Also, Honda is less paternalistic and allows you to turn off traction/stability control programs, which Toyota is loathe to do. I guess I don't understand why someone would struggle with finding a manual within a marque that doesn't want to build them when an equally good, perhaps better alternative exists.
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    bits4brainsbits4brains Member Posts: 11
    Also, Honda is less paternalistic and allows you to turn off traction/stability control programs, which Toyota is loathe to do.

    I'm not sure that statement is entirely fair. The 2009 Corolla allows traction control to be disabled. My 2002 Sienna has a switch to kill it too.
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    bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    I agree that Hondas are easier to find with manuals. I'm not sure I agree Hondas have better build quality. I'm pretty much convinced the two companies are equal in that area with neither having an advantage. Looks are subjective, and while some models may be getting uglier, others are getting much nicer looking. The Camry and Accord are better looking than they've ever been, and the latest Civic is absolutely gorgous in either the coupe or the sedan. I also like the looks of the Yaris, though I don't care for the Fit. It looks like a microvan.
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    mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Toyota manuals are available, but some regions don't carry them normally. I have a new Camry with a manual - point is if you want one, you can get one.
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    kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Yep when we bought our Camry we drove a manual on the test drive but the wife went with auto.
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    bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    For some reason it does seem to be easier to find a Honda on the lot with a manual than it does a Toyota. When I was in the test driving mode to compare the Yaris and the Fit, I had to go to 6 different Toyota dealerships before I was able to find a manual Yaris, but the very first Honda dealership I went to had several manual Fits. And to get a Yaris the way I wanted it, I would've had to order it from the factory. The Yaris pretty much comes only two ways; stripped if it's a hatchback, or loaded if it's a sedan. If you want it any other way, you have to order it.
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    lhansonlhanson Member Posts: 268
    I just checked the inventory of the three Memphis dealers for Yaris Manuals:

    Chuck Hutton Toyota has 0 Manuals out of 3 in stock

    Performance Toyota has 5 Manuals out of 24 in stock

    Wolfchase Toyota has 23 out of 23 in stock (this is not a misprint). No wonder they are running a sale ad in today's paper offering a 4 door Manual Yaris at $11,988. The lowest I have ever seen.
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    bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    What's the price for the hatchback at Wolfchase? Should be pretty decent if the sedans are that low.
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    ttaittai Member Posts: 114
    Are the Yaris' getting cheaper? That's way less than the LB from last year. I wonder if the crappy economy has anything to do with it. Why not try an automatic and play with the gated shifter during the test drive. You may end up liking it like I did. click click.
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    lhansonlhanson Member Posts: 268
    You can check their inventory at www.wolfchasetoyota.com. They will quote you over the internet.
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    bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    How crappy can the mileage of a 1.5 liter be?
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    ttaittai Member Posts: 114
    lol. I was talking the US economy. Not fuel economy.
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    bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    Sorry, my bad. That makes sense.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Actually if you work that 1.5 liter engine too hard, the economy will fall off drastically. They don't like it much above 75 mph (with regards to fuel economy) although they will certainly go faster than that and even like to rev.

    And if you gear the car so that the revs are not so extreme at 75 mph, the power will fall off drastically and you won't get out of your own way (and stress the engine badly, too).

    So it's all a compromise of power vs. fuel economy with those little engines.
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    bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    I've noticed there seems to be a balancing act going on in terms of achieving fuel economy. There seems to be a point where having too small of an engine actually hurts fuel economy because the engine has to work so hard just for normal driving. I've noticed my Corolla doesn't have to be run as hard as say a Yaris or an Echo because it seems to have more spare power. I have never gotten worse than about 33 MPG with my Corolla and that was when I was running it hard. I average 38 MPG, and I've gotten as high as 41. I've driven both the Yaris and Echo on the highway at 75 MPH and I can say the Corolla engine isn't wrking nearly as hard at these speeds.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Corolla I borrowed for a few months, with the 1.8 engine, actually got about 2mpg more than the Scion xA with the 1.5 engine, averaging out city/hwy over months of use.
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    cz75cz75 Member Posts: 210
    Toyota, from all I've read, doesn't seem to allow their stability control to fully disengage, even when switched "off." Perhaps they've changed some, but I still stand behind the sentiment that Toyota, not being a very performance oriented company (and in spite of the Supra, MR2 and some Celicas of years past), seems more concerned with product liability than anything else and, consequently, dictates how much control customers can have over the gizmos installed on their cars in the name of safety.
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    cz75cz75 Member Posts: 210
    I'm sure that's true, since some regions also stick you with mandatory options you don't want in much the same way. I've lived in the Midwest most of my life and six years in the Southeast and know that Toyota has some bizarre concepts of what their buyers should be able to purchase by region, both from personal experience and anecdote, such as allocating very few Tundras to dealers in rural Indiana but more hybrids than they can sell, with most Tundras going to Chicago and Indy in that region.

    My point is still that you can expect a dealer that doesn't have a Honda with a stick to be able to dealer trade with one that does, if they aren't being dicks, and to get one within a week. I thought about a Solara many years ago and was told that they got V-6 manuals a few times a year and that I'd need to special order with no guarantee of getting one within less than several months when I lived in St. Louis. This still adds up to having almost no real availability outside the pages of a magazine that got one provided for testing.
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    bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    Bingo! That's my problem with these new vehicles. If I'm ordering it from the factory I should be able to get it equipped the way I want it....regardless of where I'm located. More and more auto makers are taking away our option choices for the sake of streamlining their production lines. My form of protest is not buying their vehicles.
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    ls6454ls6454 Member Posts: 11
    Check out the Fit, dealers have both manual and automatics on there lots.
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    mcmanusmcmanus Member Posts: 121
    Honda has a deserved sportier image, so I'd expect more MT offerings than Toyota. In fact the closest thing Toyota offers for a "sports car" is the new Corolla XRS. :( :confuse: :sick:

    OTOH its my opinion that 1.5L is just too small for "American sized" cars. We load them up with safety features and luxury options (like A/C), but worst AT and expect them to perform. AT's are less efficiency than MT, but these are tuned to get the same fuel economy, so what gives is performance. The truth is, fuel economy ratings for Yaris vs. Corolla/xD or Fit vs. Civic are nearly the same.

    My local dealers only had a total of four Fits in stock, all Sport with AT. :(
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    bearcrkrdbearcrkrd Member Posts: 167
    I was at a dealer last week getting service, and walked the lot. Looked at every vehicle. Climbed into a couple, a Matrix and special edition xB. Tons of Corollas, and many more Yaris than any time I can remember. Checking the window stickers, unless it kills you $$ wise to spend 3 grand or so more for a Corolla, the Yaris makes no sense whatsoever. You get the same mileage and twice the vehicle. I felt that way stronger than ever after that walkthrough last week. The next-gen Fit I'll sure give a good look-see when it comes out, but I'm having a hard time finding a smaller sensible vehicle that's screwed together as well as my '06 Sienna CE.
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    ttaittai Member Posts: 114
    what??? why not just buy a minivan then.
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    bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    Last time I checked, a Sienna IS a minivan, which he already has. I'm not so sure the smaller cars like the Fit, Yaris, and Corolla aren't screwed together as well as the Sienna (unlike the domestics, I believe Honda and Toyota builds ALL of their vehicles with the same top notch level of build quality). It just sounds like what he's looked at hasn't been his cup of tea. I too am disappointed with the new crop of sub-compacts and compacts as I think they all fall short for their intended purpose. They're all overpriced for their size segment, many of them are underequipped, and none of them are achieving the kind of fuel economy they SHOULD be getting.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Yaris is fun to drive and is a great city or "metro" car, for parking, maneuvering, etc. But if you are a full time freeway driver, I think you're right. But if you are a city dweller and you like to shift, zip around, rev it up, etc., the Yaris would be a lot more fun than a Corolla, which is a great car but basically an automotive sedative.

    I sold my xA for this very reason, that I am a 95% freeway driver. My friend bought my car and is a 90% city driver, and she is very happy vs. her old Corolla.
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Did you replace it with a Mini? :-)

    In my area, most dealers are now carrying a good stock of stick shift Yaris and Corolla. At the Honda dealer, there has never been a problem finding a decent selection of stick shift Civics and Fits.

    Accords with a stick seem to be harder to find since the model turnover, and I can't recall the last time I saw a stick shift Camry...

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    bearcrkrdbearcrkrd Member Posts: 167
    Good comments, thx! I did notice during my walkthrough on that lot last week that there were may be 1 or 2 Yaris w/manual tranny. I don't remember any Corolla being a manual. Big change from the very recent past at that dealership, and this area as a whole. There was a whole row of Corollas that stickered for $18,200. LE's, I believe, w/auto tranny and plastic hubcaps, identical pkg's. One XRS with the 2.4L. I can't remember if it was manual or auto. Auto, I think....
    I rented a Yaris and went over the Cascades and back, shortly after the Yaris came out. Hatchback w/auto & the 'Power Pkg w/Alum wheels'. It was a fun drive. If I was 21 or 31 instead of 51, might have brought it home. Sat in an Astra a couple weeks ago. Was very impressed, at least as much as you could be from just sitting in it.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Nope, no MINI. Got a Subaru Outback to haul bikes and also for nasty rain-soaked winter roads. It's a LOT more stable at high speeds than the xA, which was wind-happy.
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    bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    Is the Outback a full time AWD?
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    bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    Oh, I HATE those dam plastic wheel covers! They're so cheezy! I think all trim levels except for the very base model should come with alloy wheels.

    Heck I'm 50 and I'd buy a Yaris IF I could get one the way I want it equipped, which I can't. I only like the hatchback model and unfortunately Toyota won't offer it with the options I want on it.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah Outback is full time AWD system. Not an exciting car but very versatile. Not as good MPG as the xA however.

    AWD consumes more fuel.
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