Actually, they never found the #1 Corvette...it is MIA, interestly enough. I don't think #2 makes it....("we're number 2, we're number 2!!").
I suppose that a very early or very late number in an already establish collectible would make SOME difference to a real nut for that particular car. It gives them ego-points at the specialty shows. But I don't see it as bumping the price very much, and then again only on a car that's worth something to begin with. A low number on a rust bucket? I don't think so.
I personally think the Neiman Marcus editions are a bit of a joke....this kind of thing has always flopped in the collector car market, especially once the market is flooded with a gazillion new T-Birds. Even among old T-Birds, if it's just the average "bird", it's a $25K car all day long. Only the very rare supercharger or other special engine models bring really big bucks and lots of collector interest. You can go to auctions and see 55-57 T-Bird after T-Bird roll across...there are a lot of them around, and this supresses the price.
But having a factory-built supercharger, it seems to me, is a lot different than some glitzy department store badging and upholstery. Remember Bill Blass Lincolns? Or that "real Corinthian leather?" Cosmetic badging doesn't usually improve a collector car's status, no. Some of (SOME OF) the Pace Car badging can get you a few thou more, but again, too many cars of that type killed the value of them.
You know what's going to happen with the Marcus Birds? People will store every one of them, won't drive them, and then in ten years when they are tired of paying all that storage, they'll all come out on the market at once and there will be 200 of them for sale in Hemmings and 9 people who want one. Happens every time.
They never found the first Vette? I thought GM squirriled it away in a museum somewhere. Is there any more info on this somehwere? Sounds like a mystery that could use my attention ;-) The game is afoot, Watson!
The first batch of Vettes to come off the line were all white with red interiors, weren't they? GM's got to have some notion of what happened to this car after they drove it off the assembly line. Did they sell it? Send it out on a promo tour? How did it dissappear, and what's its last known location?
The car that launched the very popular M3 family. This was a true homologation special. Engine, suspension and bodywork all unique to the car. The racing version was one of the most successful touring car racers ever. About 16,000 were built from 87 to 91. About 6000 came to the US. They are still potent race cars and more than a few are written off during a year, upping the rarity. The downside is its a sedan which are always less desireable than a 2 seater, open or closed. Tough cars, well built but parts are expensive. I have one as a daily driver. Good, low mileage, unmolested examples are $18-20k. Rough ones can be had for under $10k. The US spec E36 M3 doesn't have nearly the performance or rarity. They're a dime a dozen in So Cal.
They were both sent to Chevrolet Engineering and most likely were destroyed after extensive testing.
# 3 actually was owned by a fellow Fresnan (From Fresno, california . . . my home land) for many years.
the Late Howard Kirsch (sound familiar?) purchased it from the owner in Fresno and had it restored.
Nothing is for sure, but the man who was driving #1 off the line in a photo said that the car was sent to engineering . . . so that is the most widely accepted theory. Also a sticker on the window designated the destination as Engineering as well.
So really . . . #3 is really #1 available to the public. White with red interior was the first color combo used.
I have a friend in Fresno with one that has sat for over 25 years under a tarp. I wonder what # his is? I'll have to ask him.
Euro M3s have some collectibility, yes, but they aren't really strong given how much to costs to make them right...it's a tough row to hoe for most 80s cars to be hot collectibles right now. Too soon, and even 16,000 cars is a lot by collector car standards, if you are hoping for big money or huge interest. I'd say the M3 is a "cult car" and a 2nd tier collectible that will remain about the same level in price for many years to come.
FWIW. I recall hearing(no telling its veracity)that when they dropped a battery into the first Corvette and hooked it up nothing worked. They wired it like any other car, but since it was a fiberglass body nothing ran to ground.
For a couple of years I'd pass a house on my way to high school usually about the same time this guy was backing his early Corvette out of the garage. It was the first generation style but sounded pretty funky--hard to describe, not the usual late '60s V8 exhaust note, more like a hi-perf popcorn maker. Always thought it was a '55 with the V8, but I don't know what the Blue Flame six sounds like with duals and a little factory tuning. Big sixes can sound pretty serious.
It's a shame the first two were most likely destroyed. I would have loved the mystery of traking them down ;-) Or just the idea of getting to sit in *the* car that launched the legend! Maybe we'll get lucky and some GM engineering guy's grandson will discover grandpa couldn't stand to see it destryoed and squirriled it away in a barn for all these years.
..should become a collectible on sheer merit. These are rare, have style, are very reliable and durable, are surprisingly comfortable (both seats and ride). #289 dismissed them as 4-door; how silly! #290 dismissed them as having modest performance; how childish. Since when is 0-60mph in 7.3 seconds "modest"? And a top speed of 144 mph (limited by the gearing, with a cruising speed at 4000 rpm of 120 mph). The AWD alone sets these apart from the Camaro-Firebird-Mustand kid stuff. #440 thinks a collectible should have power. What he and others really mean is that the vehicle produce wheelspin. Those of us who like to drive safely on Interstate highways, where passing a semi at 80 mph in the rain can be a real trial in many cars, should try it in an SVX. In addition to the other merits, the later SVXs have adequate safety belts, are reasonably protective in collision by virtue of layout and 3500-3600 lb weight, have good driver vision. They also get 18 mpg in city and 27 mpg at 83 mph by virtue of small size and a drag coefficient of 0.29. The brakes are good for 60-0 mph in 112 feet. Cornering is 0.9 g. Chassis feel, steering feel, and transmission behavior are all good. So for the mature (or maybe aged) who do not race, I call the later SVXs the best all around 2+2 GT coupes ever made at any price. (AWD Porsches are faster, but less roomy or comfortable.)
Yeah, but when it comes to printing posters with Vipers and Ferraris on them, nobody thinks of Subaru. Subaru makes you think of stodgy old station wagons hawked by Crocidile Dundee. It may be a good car, but it's got a serious image problem to overcome.
4-doors have always had a long row to hoe when it comes to becoming a *serious* collectible. (as opposed to people "collecting" them in the backyard). Some special-bodied one-offs bring decent money, but most 4-doors are used for parts for 2 door and convertibles.
About the only "hot" 4-doors I can think of, and they aren't really "hot" relative to the more desirable cars-- are the Jaguar MkII 3.8, IF...and it's a BIG IF....it has a 4-speed trans, left hand drive, wire wheels and overdrive...(right hand automatics are a tough sell) and, surprisingly, the 94-96 Chevy Impala SS is now trading in the $18-22K range for nice cars, almost at their MSRP of 7 years ago. Old 4-door Rolls and Bentleys and Jags from the 80s are practically throw-aways already, a Maserati Quattroporto is selling around $7K, and American 4-doors are pretty dead all around. Oh, another "collectible" 4-door is a fully restored Checker cab, if it has all the signage and meters, etc.
Problem is, a Subaru is neither a Chevy nor a Jaguar in the public mind. Subarus are hardly in the public mind at all. Maybe when they win Lemans or something ??
Shifty, I dare say that for 99% of the population, they've never heard of Le Mans, unless you're talking about the Pontiac. If fact, most people have only heard of the Indy 500 and Daytona 500. Except for die hard car nuts, I don't think Lemans puts anything in the public mind.
You could be right about that actually. I don't think many people know that Mazda won Lemans, so I guess I need to rethink that as an influence on value as far as most folks in the US are concerned. Subaru has won lots of important Euro rallyes and that hasn't helped their resale one bit, so.....
It's interesting, M series BMWs haven't done all that well as collectibles, but I'm not sure why. It could be that most of the older ones are indeed gray market cars, and that's a big minus. But even the highly exotic M1 struggles at $75K and won't budge either up or down these last few years.
Perhaps also people are afraid of the older Ms mechanical issues...they require lots of good care.
I think newer MB ragtops are rather bland and don't have lots of eye appeal beyond the fact that they are, in fact, Mercedes. These are more like "mature folks cars" and I don't see the younger collectors coveting them as the young 'uns get older. Besides, Benz is a mass-producer (people forget how many cars they make), so they are everywhere...also not a good boost for collectibility.
Oh, of course, someone will always want these quality ragtops as used cars, but I think it will many many years before they break their original MSRP. They aren't terribly exciting to the imagination.
Again, 4-doors of any kind have a tough road I believe...100 years of auto history say so, anyway. The big Mercedes 4-doors of the 60s and 70s are hitting bottom, value wise.
I am hopeful the M6 will start to move up in popularity...it is undervalued right now I think. The MB 190 16 valve is a minor cult car, that's true---there's interest in it, but not big money.
I haven't a clue about the XKR....in fact, I haven't a clue about most modern Jags as far as collectibility. Their terrible reputation dogs them even though they are so much better than before. Even their current ads keep talking about how much better they are---not a great idea, as it reminds people of the dreadful days.
In any case, rarity + open tops +excitement are the best indicators I think.
Something about the mid-late sixties Lincolns with the suicide doors. I know these cars were total pigs, but I think they had a classy look to them. Anybody agree or am I alone in this?
Oh, no, you're not alone...they are, among 4-doors, interesting cars, and can bring a decent dollar...if....and this is a big IF...they are really nice totally and squared away. Problem is, to square away a big complex car like that takes as much money as it does to fix up a Cadillac convertible...so which do you think restorers are going to put their money into?
Of course, this "not worth restoring" syndrome has a reverse effect, in that as more and more of the big 4-door Lincolns deteriorate from neglect, that makes them rarer and rebalances the supply and demand equation in favor of the car.
In a sense, a 4-door hardtop has an advantage over a normal "posted" 4-door, so the Lincoln doesn't exactly fall into the doomsday scenario for most 4-doors. But a two door hardtop will always find more favor with collectors than a 4-door hardtop.
Another factor which is just a fact of life is that posted 4-doors are often collected by folks who can't afford to by/restore a 2-door or a convertible, but they want a piece of the nostaglia, and grandpa's 4-door is the only way they can join the party. So with the big money collectors wanting only converts and coupes, and with the 4-door collectors not willing or able to pay very much for the 4-doors, and without the resources to restore a 4-door (or perhaps having the common sense not to) you have a sort of rigid system that is not likely to change.
And last of all, 4-doors aren't very exciting visually or performance wise, the exception being the rare muscle-car 4-doors built in the 60s.
I didn't think the closed Lincoln of the 60's was a hardtop. I haven't seen one in awhile now, but I could've sworn that they had a B-pillar...just no window frames.
Something that in the early 70's that they started calling "Pillared Hardtops". Heck, Chrysler even had a body style code for it. 41 was pillared sedan, 42 was "Pillared Hardtop", and 43 was hardtop sedan.
I always thought the 60's Lincolns were neat, but I think they hit their peak after around '65 or '66 or so.
I used to have a friend whose parents had a 1969 or so Lincoln...now that thing was a pig! They also had a '78 Olds '98 that seemed lithe and nimble by comparison!
I'll have to look that up, Andre, you may be right. It's been a long time since I've seen one. But they are definitelly listed in books and auctions as "4-door hardtops" although I do recall some with the chrome pillar. Maybe there are two models? I just don't know right off the top of my head. I presume we are talking about the Continentals.
I know for sure they had a four-door convertable that didn't have a pillar, and I'm 99.44% sure the hardtops didn't have the post either. I'll try to find a picture.
When these were new, we had a neighbor with one and it seems to me that there was a b-pillar. Perhaps there were two models one with and one without the b-pillar.
Made one-by-one by engineering students in a Spanish truck factory by the same name, these GT coupes, aside from being hobbled by wrong-end drive, were 2700 lb bricks containing a 4.5 L V8, a 25+ gallon fuel tank, unit construction, and the ground clearance of an SUV. I saw one being reconstructed in Harrah's in Sparks, Nevada, in 1965. Distinctive but typical styling. All parts made by hand, even the screws.
Not sure how Pegaso relates to an SVX. The Pegaso was a very limited production (80 +/-) GT car produced in the '50s in Spain. Pegaso is Spanish for Pegasus. The chief engineer and the driving force behind the car was Wilfredo Riccart (sp?) who had worked for Alfa. The Pegaso cars were meant to be sort of technology demonstrators showing what the company was capable of. They were all handbuilt and I believe all were custom one-off bodies by the likes of Bertone. At least one car was bodied as a roadster and supercharged for racing at Lemans but I don't know if it qualified. If it did it didn't last long. If I have some of the details wrong I apologize, I have a big library but its at home and I'm not. The engine was an OHC V8 with some "unique" features. I think I read that it had a endenancy to spin bearings so they were held in by set screws or some such thing. I have seen 12 or 13 Pegasos over the years. There is a fellow here in So. Cal. that has one that he takes to all the shows thats very nice and has another one yet to be restored. They are very rare and quite valuable, not quite as much as a comparable Ferrari but still up there.
Yeah, Pegaso is very valuable, not a "future" but a "now" hot collectible. It's more of a showpiece of engineering than a car that one would actually vintage race or have fun with. I think as a practical vehicle it is rather inept, but very interesting, very rare, and very exotic. More like a work of art than a car. They were outrageously expensive when new.
I saw one being worked on...I remember the poor restorers actually had to cast a second timing case cover, with an opening cut in it, because the only way to hold the timing gears was to install the cover, and of course then you couldn't see the gears to time them. Hence, the duplicate cover with a viewing port. I'm sure the entire car required that level of expertise to cope with it.
I just looked up some Lincoln pics in my auto encyclopedia, and it looks like the last "true" hardtop (open from A- to C- pillar with the windows rolled down) was the gargantuan 1960 Lincoln. This was the last year for the oversized models with the canted headlights.
My auto encylcopedia does actually list the '61-65 models as "hardtop sedans" (just calls them "sdn 4d" from '66 on), but all the pictures show a thin roof pillar. It looks like the windows had thin chrome frames that rolled down with the glass, but there was still a thin pillar there. Maybe it wasn't structural, though.
For '66, the body style grew, and a hardtop coupe was added. The sedan still had a thin pillar though. There was another restyle in '70, and the pillar grew, and then it looks like '75 spawned those Love Boat sized pimpmobiles that are just so classically 70's.
I'm actually surprised though, that Lincoln didn't field a true 4-door hardtop, considering that body style usually outsold pillared sedans in the more luxurious body styles in that era, at least until air conditioning and the threat of rollover standards loomed on the horizon.
There is a guy with a beautiful black '67 Lincolm sedan. I think he uses it as a daily driver. It appears to be just a beautiful original that somehow has survived. It just looks so classy.
A buddy had one not too many years back that was the exact same car. He loved it dearly but it was a money pit. I remember he had to replace the entire exhaust system including a cracked manifold. The Lincoln had, I think six mufflers on it. The job cost a fortune but my buddy insisted on having it done right. Another time his vacuum power door locks acted up. His mechanic advised him to forgo power locks due to the tremendous expense of fixing them but, no, Bob spent the money, located the parts and had the locks fixed.
That's a new one on me. I can see how it would work, but I can't think of how it could posibly be better than electric, and a whole host of reasons why it would be worse.
Fords of that era were big on using vacuum, door locks, disappearing headlight doors, trunk release. If you had a leak it could be a real bear trying to track it down.
My old Benz has vacuum door locks, and in fact I was just working on them. Each door has two little vacuum chambers on the bottom (they look like little cylinders with a pointy rubber roof!) and they either push or pull a long rod, which goes up to a pivot, and then another long rod to the lock and another pivot. Beautifully made stuff. On mine, one of the rods just lost its pivot pin, it wasn't a leak problem.
Is a Mercedes diesel a future collectible? Sure, for the scrap metal collectors. But NOT YET, boys, this car is still a runner at 216K.
Typical Teuton overkill engineering. There are more parts in each door than in an entire Daewoo. This is why you can't compare cars from MSRP stickers. You need to pop off the door panels and pull up the rugs to get an idea what the difference is between a $20K car and a $40K car, or a British car and a German one. And sometimes there's a surprise. Having taken apart a few MGBs, I was quite surprised at how strong the body was compared to say the equivalent year Porsche.
More future collectibles? Just about anything with 400HP in it.
Few sedans are collectible. Heck, I remember reading about a '67 Quattroporte a few years ago in Sports Car Market (Is that even still in print?) "An opprotunity to get gored by the Trident".
Jaguars, to me, are probably the rare exception in this country for truly collectible sedans. Mk VII, VIIMs, VIIIs, and IXs as well as Mk1s, Mk2s, S-Types.. those are all quite collectible.
Other than that... name me more than a small handful of truly "hot" sedans of the 50's and 60s.
It's a lot different in Europe. Particularly England. Go to the Bromley Pageant or Beaulieu. You see very active clubs full of people who love and restore old Sedans. Remember, actual British Sports cars are pretty uncommon over there in comparison to the USA.
I've noticed that traditionally, the hottest performing American sedans are police cars! It really is a shame that all that high performance stuff got relegated to police duty or performance coupes. They could've made some hot sedans out of that stuff.
Unfortunately, most police cars were very cheaply equipped, so they're not going to appeal to the general public. I got kind of lucky with my Gran Fury. It was a sheriff's car, so it was nicely equipped with a nice stereo/tape deck, power windows, door locks, cloth interior, etc. But then it still has the nice stuff like the 175 hp 318 4bbl, hd transmission, 2.94 rear, wide offset cop rims, oil/tranny cooler, 125 mph speedo, oil gauge, etc. I know it's sad to brag about 175 hp out of a 318, but the civilian models only had 140 hp, and a 2.45 rear end! Still, the few civilians that were still buying cars like this in 1989 were probably making it their last automotive purchase before knocking on death's door, so they couldn't care less about performance and handling.
Another problem with police cars is that they tend to be abused. I guess mine had an easy life, spending most of it delivering warrants, serving court summonses, and heading off to the Donut Hut ;-)
It is kinda sad though, to think of some of the great sedans we could've had if Detroit had put the parts together. I guess that was just an era where if it had 4 doors and/or a B-pillar, it just wasn't associated with sportiness.
Oh, I would take issue with you Bill on the collectibility of the big blimp Jaguar MK VII, VIII, etc. These cars are without merit and hard, hard to sell to anyone for a decent price...certainly never a car you would want to restore, or even drive for that matter. A truly mechanically inept and ingainly monster of a car. I don't think these cars will ever be seriously collected except by the naive buyer who thinks they've struck gold and end up with lead. Right up there with the 70s XJ6 as Dead Duck of the Decade.
Seriously... These can be worth some bucks. But they are hell to restore costwise.
I kinda like the way they drive. Personally, they're pigs by today's standards, but they beat the heck out of most anything detroit was making back then.
Aw, I don't care what Sportscarmarket says...they have been dead wrong before...Those Jags are sale-proof cars at anything over $8K and take forever to unload. And this is one time I will leap to Detroit's defense. Those big Mark Jaguars were awful, awful cars. Best thing you can do with a Mark IX is salvage it for the disk brakes and engine for an XK150 and make a couch out of the seats. I doubt you could successfully drive one 100 miles.
Oh, there are plenty of nice ones FOR SALE for more than $8K, but they'll never sell because the sellers are buried and the buyers won't pay for the seller's restoration costs. That's what I mean by sale-proof. The only time they sell, is now and then to a naive buyer who ends up eating it. But no knowledgable collector (the ones with the money) would buy such a car. You'd be crazy to pay anything more than $8K, because a) you'd have a hell of a time unloading it, and b) it would break on you the minute you touched it.
Here you go, Bill...asking price is $9, 250....wave 8 large in his face and you have a nice looking drivin' Mark IX. And it's even a left-hooker! He's a dealer, so he's making money at this price...you can imagine what HE paid for it. Out of St. Louis.
1959 JAGUAR MARK IX, Rare left drive model that is in good running and driving condition.Not fully restored but good looking and a nice driver (314) 524-6000
I think that's Mark Hyman's #. Hyman Ltd in St Louis.
I'll agree that an OK Driver is an $8K-10K car.
But I know of quite a few within the Jag club that sold for a bit of $$. They're cars that as drivers in fair shape arent worth a lot. But a REAL nice one can break the bank. I'm talking Chrome, Engine compartment, body, paint, leather, wood..etc... All real nice. A car that perhaps looks 2-3 years old.
I looked it up in Practical Classics' price guide. A Mk7-9 is worth 6000UKP in Condition 2 (Driver) and 12000UKP in Condition 1 (Show). 100% Jump. Look at XK-Es. What's a gorgeous perfect one worth? $40K+ for a really nice S1 OTS. What's a driver worth? $20-25K.
Obviously much more if you buy from "Doc" )
I've seen some really gorgeous ones sell for over $20K. Quickly. But I agree that one needing some work around the edges has its' value slaughtered. I mean, C2 vs C1 is a 50% drop! Compare that to an Aston, Big Healey, XK, etc...
I've never seen one sell for that price personally Bill...I just can't imagine that the occasional foolish purchase for $20K on this dog of a car actually establishes a market price. You know, people "claim" to sell them for that price, but I never saw a verified transaction for that kind of money. All the ones I know go begging. It's a poor choice as a collectible I think because:
1. It is UGLY, bulbous, pompous and clumsy 2. It is mechanically disastrous 3.It was a failure when new, and my contention is that NO car that was a failure ever becomes a worthy collectible. The stigma or stain of failure remains in people's mind. 4. It is a disgrace to the Jaguar name. It is the 1965 tailfin Mercedes of Jaguars. The BMW 320i of jaguars? The Audi 5000 of Jaguars?
He, who wants to collect a loser? The Shiftright Edsel-Delorean-Yugo-MarkIX collection? NOT!
I found a real low mileage beauty Mark IX in SF about a3 years ago during an appraisal....I couldn't help peddle that car for the widow for $10K no matter how I tried. I sent one client to look at it, and the brakes failed on the test drive. It also had timing chain noise, and a vicious oil leak. And this car was really a genuine low miles #2. Finally ended up on consignment, I think it did sell for around $12K after 8 months in a showroom, and it required some kind of financing! And I know money went into it.
So it was a bottom-feeder deal, not a collector car purchase if you ask me. It's a car for wannabees who don't know much about collector cars, if you want my very blunt opinion about it....LOL!
Stay away if you want to stay alive! Or better yet, buy a Mark II 3.8 with wires and overdrive. That's a 4-door Jag that is GOING SOMEWHERE!
A few years ago, I was at an old car auction. Some guy had a Mark IV that he was VERY proud of.
He had a book of receipts that looked like a Los Angeles phone book. And, the car looked good, if that's what you like...I sure don't!
Lots of cars were selling that day but the Jag went begging. I have no idea what his reserve was but as I recall, the bidding stalled around 5500.00. The guy was ashen faced and REALLY upset.
I also see them stall on the block, too, and this plus my personal experience driving them has rather turned me off to the car (as if you couldn't guess!). Especially when I think that that money could have gone into restoring an XK120-40-50 or a MkII.
One vehicle that should be if it isn't already a good collectable is the Alfa Giullia and Gullia Super-pre fuel injection of course. These were great handling little saloon cars and could be modified from 1600 -1750 - 2000 cc's. I know that in Canada there are darn few of them left and most have rusted out just like most Euro cars have, but they were a great ride.
Comments
I suppose that a very early or very late number in an already establish collectible would make SOME difference to a real nut for that particular car. It gives them ego-points at the specialty shows. But I don't see it as bumping the price very much, and then again only on a car that's worth something to begin with. A low number on a rust bucket? I don't think so.
I personally think the Neiman Marcus editions are a bit of a joke....this kind of thing has always flopped in the collector car market, especially once the market is flooded with a gazillion new T-Birds. Even among old T-Birds, if it's just the average "bird", it's a $25K car all day long. Only the very rare supercharger or other special engine models bring really big bucks and lots of collector interest. You can go to auctions and see 55-57 T-Bird after T-Bird roll across...there are a lot of them around, and this supresses the price.
But having a factory-built supercharger, it seems to me, is a lot different than some glitzy department store badging and upholstery. Remember Bill Blass Lincolns? Or that "real Corinthian leather?" Cosmetic badging doesn't usually improve a collector car's status, no. Some of (SOME OF) the Pace Car badging can get you a few thou more, but again, too many cars of that type killed the value of them.
You know what's going to happen with the Marcus Birds? People will store every one of them, won't drive them, and then in ten years when they are tired of paying all that storage, they'll all come out on the market at once and there will be 200 of them for sale in Hemmings and 9 people who want one. Happens every time.
The game is afoot, Watson!
They were both sent to Chevrolet Engineering and most likely were destroyed after extensive testing.
# 3 actually was owned by a fellow Fresnan (From Fresno, california . . . my home land) for many years.
the Late Howard Kirsch (sound familiar?) purchased it from the owner in Fresno and had it restored.
Nothing is for sure, but the man who was driving #1 off the line in a photo said that the car was sent to engineering . . . so that is the most widely accepted theory. Also a sticker on the window designated the destination as Engineering as well.
So really . . . #3 is really #1 available to the public.
White with red interior was the first color combo used.
I have a friend in Fresno with one that has sat for over 25 years under a tarp. I wonder what # his is? I'll have to ask him.
For some wierd reason, I kinda like them too.
About the only "hot" 4-doors I can think of, and they aren't really "hot" relative to the more desirable cars-- are the Jaguar MkII 3.8, IF...and it's a BIG IF....it has a 4-speed trans, left hand drive, wire wheels and overdrive...(right hand automatics are a tough sell) and, surprisingly, the 94-96 Chevy Impala SS is now trading in the $18-22K range for nice cars, almost at their MSRP of 7 years ago. Old 4-door Rolls and Bentleys and Jags from the 80s are practically throw-aways already, a Maserati Quattroporto is selling around $7K, and American 4-doors are pretty dead all around. Oh, another "collectible" 4-door is a fully restored Checker cab, if it has all the signage and meters, etc.
Problem is, a Subaru is neither a Chevy nor a Jaguar in the public mind. Subarus are hardly in the public mind at all. Maybe when they win Lemans or something ??
1) Jaguar XJR-S (Particularly the convertibles) those are damn rare cars. I bet its' 50 years before XJS coupes are worth much.
2) BMW M6 But I bet that in the future its' the US versions only that pull the bucks.
3) BMW E28 M5
4) BMW E30 M3
5) BMW E36 M3 Lightweights.
5) Jaguar XKR, especially ragtops.
6) Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16 (Same as with M6 In regards to Grey-Market cars)
7) 93-95 (or is it 94-95?) Mercedes-Benz E320 Ragtops. A 95 E320 Ragtop is currently worth more than a '95 SL500.
8) Mercedes-Benz 500E. Very rare beast.
A few to think of..
Bill
Perhaps also people are afraid of the older Ms mechanical issues...they require lots of good care.
I think newer MB ragtops are rather bland and don't have lots of eye appeal beyond the fact that they are, in fact, Mercedes. These are more like "mature folks cars" and I don't see the younger collectors coveting them as the young 'uns get older. Besides, Benz is a mass-producer (people forget how many cars they make), so they are everywhere...also not a good boost for collectibility.
Oh, of course, someone will always want these quality ragtops as used cars, but I think it will many many years before they break their original MSRP. They aren't terribly exciting to the imagination.
Again, 4-doors of any kind have a tough road I believe...100 years of auto history say so, anyway. The big Mercedes 4-doors of the 60s and 70s are hitting bottom, value wise.
I am hopeful the M6 will start to move up in popularity...it is undervalued right now I think. The MB 190 16 valve is a minor cult car, that's true---there's interest in it, but not big money.
I haven't a clue about the XKR....in fact, I haven't a clue about most modern Jags as far as collectibility. Their terrible reputation dogs them even though they are so much better than before. Even their current ads keep talking about how much better they are---not a great idea, as it reminds people of the dreadful days.
In any case, rarity + open tops +excitement are the best indicators I think.
Something about the mid-late sixties Lincolns with the suicide doors. I know these cars were total pigs, but I think they had a classy look to them. Anybody agree or am I alone in this?
Of course, this "not worth restoring" syndrome has a reverse effect, in that as more and more of the big 4-door Lincolns deteriorate from neglect, that makes them rarer and rebalances the supply and demand equation in favor of the car.
In a sense, a 4-door hardtop has an advantage over a normal "posted" 4-door, so the Lincoln doesn't exactly fall into the doomsday scenario for most 4-doors. But a two door hardtop will always find more favor with collectors than a 4-door hardtop.
Another factor which is just a fact of life is that posted 4-doors are often collected by folks who can't afford to by/restore a 2-door or a convertible, but they want a piece of the nostaglia, and grandpa's 4-door is the only way they can join the party. So with the big money collectors wanting only converts and coupes, and with the 4-door collectors not willing or able to pay very much for the 4-doors, and without the resources to restore a 4-door (or perhaps having the common sense not to) you have a sort of rigid system that is not likely to change.
And last of all, 4-doors aren't very exciting visually or performance wise, the exception being the rare muscle-car 4-doors built in the 60s.
Something that in the early 70's that they started calling "Pillared Hardtops". Heck, Chrysler even had a body style code for it. 41 was pillared sedan, 42 was "Pillared Hardtop", and 43 was hardtop sedan.
I always thought the 60's Lincolns were neat, but I think they hit their peak after around '65 or '66 or so.
I used to have a friend whose parents had a 1969 or so Lincoln...now that thing was a pig! They also had a '78 Olds '98 that seemed lithe and nimble by comparison!
-Andre
I saw one being worked on...I remember the poor restorers actually had to cast a second timing case cover, with an opening cut in it, because the only way to hold the timing gears was to install the cover, and of course then you couldn't see the gears to time them. Hence, the duplicate cover with a viewing port. I'm sure the entire car required that level of expertise to cope with it.
Yep, quite a bit beyond an SVX, that's for sure!
I just looked up some Lincoln pics in my auto encyclopedia, and it looks like the last "true" hardtop (open from A- to C- pillar with the windows rolled down) was the gargantuan 1960 Lincoln. This was the last year for the oversized models with the canted headlights.
My auto encylcopedia does actually list the '61-65 models as "hardtop sedans" (just calls them "sdn 4d" from '66 on), but all the pictures show a thin roof pillar. It looks like the windows had thin chrome frames that rolled down with the glass, but there was still a thin pillar there. Maybe it wasn't structural, though.
For '66, the body style grew, and a hardtop coupe was added. The sedan still had a thin pillar though. There was another restyle in '70, and the pillar grew, and then it looks like '75 spawned those Love Boat sized pimpmobiles that are just so classically 70's.
I'm actually surprised though, that Lincoln didn't field a true 4-door hardtop, considering that body style usually outsold pillared sedans in the more luxurious body styles in that era, at least until air conditioning and the threat of rollover standards loomed on the horizon.
-Andre
A buddy had one not too many years back that was the exact same car. He loved it dearly but it was a money pit. I remember he had to replace the entire exhaust system including a cracked manifold. The Lincoln had, I think six mufflers on it. The job cost a fortune but my buddy insisted on having it done right. Another time his vacuum power door locks acted up. His mechanic advised him to forgo power locks due to the tremendous expense of fixing them but, no, Bob spent the money, located the parts and had the locks fixed.
Is a Mercedes diesel a future collectible? Sure, for the scrap metal collectors. But NOT YET, boys, this car is still a runner at 216K.
They also had vacuum operated parking brake releases that would release the parking brake when the cars were put into gear.
Sounds like Mercedes did a better job with these.
More future collectibles? Just about anything with 400HP in it.
Few sedans are collectible. Heck, I remember reading about a '67 Quattroporte a few years ago in Sports Car Market (Is that even still in print?) "An opprotunity to get gored by the Trident".
Jaguars, to me, are probably the rare exception in this country for truly collectible sedans. Mk VII, VIIMs, VIIIs, and IXs as well as Mk1s, Mk2s, S-Types.. those are all quite collectible.
Other than that... name me more than a small handful of truly "hot" sedans of the 50's and 60s.
It's a lot different in Europe. Particularly England. Go to the Bromley Pageant or Beaulieu. You see very active clubs full of people who love and restore old Sedans. Remember, actual British Sports cars are pretty uncommon over there in comparison to the USA.
My thoughts...
Bill
Unfortunately, most police cars were very cheaply equipped, so they're not going to appeal to the general public. I got kind of lucky with my Gran Fury. It was a sheriff's car, so it was nicely equipped with a nice stereo/tape deck, power windows, door locks, cloth interior, etc. But then it still has the nice stuff like the 175 hp 318 4bbl, hd transmission, 2.94 rear, wide offset cop rims, oil/tranny cooler, 125 mph speedo, oil gauge, etc. I know it's sad to brag about 175 hp out of a 318, but the civilian models only had 140 hp, and a 2.45 rear end! Still, the few civilians that were still buying cars like this in 1989 were probably making it their last automotive purchase before knocking on death's door, so they couldn't care less about performance and handling.
Another problem with police cars is that they tend to be abused. I guess mine had an easy life, spending most of it delivering warrants, serving court summonses, and heading off to the Donut Hut ;-)
It is kinda sad though, to think of some of the great sedans we could've had if Detroit had put the parts together. I guess that was just an era where if it had 4 doors and/or a B-pillar, it just wasn't associated with sportiness.
-Andre
These cars are without merit and hard, hard to sell to anyone for a decent price...certainly never a car you would want to restore, or even drive for that matter. A truly mechanically inept and ingainly monster of a car. I don't think these cars will ever be seriously collected except by the naive buyer who thinks they've struck gold and end up with lead. Right up there with the 70s XJ6 as Dead Duck of the Decade.
Seriously... These can be worth some bucks. But they are hell to restore costwise.
I kinda like the way they drive. Personally, they're pigs by today's standards, but they beat the heck out of most anything detroit was making back then.
Bill
Find me a nice one for $8K
Bill
Here you go, Bill...asking price is $9, 250....wave 8 large in his face and you have a nice looking drivin' Mark IX. And it's even a left-hooker! He's a dealer, so he's making money at this price...you can imagine what HE paid for it. Out of St. Louis.
1959 JAGUAR MARK IX, Rare left drive model that is in good running and
driving condition.Not fully restored but good looking and a nice driver (314)
524-6000
Shifty, you crack me up.
I think that's Mark Hyman's #. Hyman Ltd in St Louis.
I'll agree that an OK Driver is an $8K-10K car.
But I know of quite a few within the Jag club that sold for a bit of $$. They're cars that as drivers in fair shape arent worth a lot. But a REAL nice one can break the bank. I'm talking Chrome, Engine compartment, body, paint, leather, wood..etc... All real nice. A car that perhaps looks 2-3 years old.
I looked it up in Practical Classics' price guide. A Mk7-9 is worth 6000UKP in Condition 2 (Driver) and 12000UKP in Condition 1 (Show). 100% Jump. Look at XK-Es. What's a gorgeous perfect one worth? $40K+ for a really nice S1 OTS. What's a driver worth? $20-25K.
Obviously much more if you buy from "Doc"
I've seen some really gorgeous ones sell for over $20K. Quickly. But I agree that one needing some work around the edges has its' value slaughtered. I mean, C2 vs C1 is a 50% drop! Compare that to an Aston, Big Healey, XK, etc...
Bill
1. It is UGLY, bulbous, pompous and clumsy
2. It is mechanically disastrous
3.It was a failure when new, and my contention is that NO car that was a failure ever becomes a worthy collectible. The stigma or stain of failure remains in people's mind.
4. It is a disgrace to the Jaguar name. It is the 1965 tailfin Mercedes of Jaguars. The BMW 320i of jaguars? The Audi 5000 of Jaguars?
He, who wants to collect a loser? The Shiftright Edsel-Delorean-Yugo-MarkIX collection? NOT!
I found a real low mileage beauty Mark IX in SF about a3 years ago during an appraisal....I couldn't help peddle that car for the widow for $10K no matter how I tried. I sent one client to look at it, and the brakes failed on the test drive. It also had timing chain noise, and a vicious oil leak. And this car was really a genuine low miles #2. Finally ended up on consignment, I think it did sell for around $12K after 8 months in a showroom, and it required some kind of financing! And I know money went into it.
So it was a bottom-feeder deal, not a collector car purchase if you ask me. It's a car for wannabees who don't know much about collector cars, if you want my very blunt opinion about it....LOL!
Stay away if you want to stay alive! Or better yet, buy a Mark II 3.8 with wires and overdrive. That's a 4-door Jag that is GOING SOMEWHERE!
Shifty
He had a book of receipts that looked like a Los Angeles phone book. And, the car looked good, if that's what you like...I sure don't!
Lots of cars were selling that day but the Jag went begging. I have no idea what his reserve was but as I recall, the bidding stalled around 5500.00. The guy was ashen faced and REALLY upset.
To each his own, I guess.