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Have You Ever Heard of a _________?!!

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I said some can't help it...:)

    well, you could be right....I never thought anyone would ever buy a Cadillac again, but slowly they're coming back from the grave.

    I think it depends on how much money the parent company is willing to sink into re-imaging a product. Ford has lots of cash right now, so maybe bringing Jaguar back to respectibility is not such a burden for them...but Jag is still not out of the woods...you can still see people's skepticism in the posts at Edmunds. This re-imaging thing is a LONG HAUL, don't you agree?
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    That's certainly true.

    I almost bought a GTI 5 yrs ago but was haunted by memories of an old Dasher/Passat with whom I had an unhappy relationship many years earlier.

    In turn, when I accepted the Dasher (for free, but still a rip-off), I was remembering a fun, silly, slow but friendly 6-volt Beetle I had had 10 yrs earlier. Had a lot of quirks, but never left me stranded on the side of the road, like the Dasher.

    Consequently, my impression of VW is confused. I don't know who I'm dealing with and I don't know what they're trying to be.

    Doesn't inspire confidence.

    RR didn't start out building luxury cars in the teens; just excellent cars. Maybe that would be the niche to re-enter. Abandon the super-luxo market.

    On the other hand, maybe it's time to retire the name altogether for cars, and just concentrate on jet engines. 30 yrs from now some enthusiast/investor could buy the rights to the name and attempt to breathe life into it once more, as they have with so many other marques.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    And all failed, interestingly enough...I think the last American individual to *successfully* put his name on a full-production car was Walter Chrysler in 1924, and the last proven success sports car with ANY name on it was Colin Chapman's Lotus, 1950s. As for rivivals, that also seems fraught with peril. I guess MG is staggering around out there, doing okay.
  • gkelly3gkelly3 Member Posts: 38
    Here are two that I bet no one's heard of:
    (a) The Electric leopard: this was a Renault "Le Car" (R-5), with the engine torn out and replaced with an electric motor. The conversion was done by a small firm in Marlboro, MA, fron around 1978-83. Since batteries took up most of the trunk, they did not set any sales records.
    (b) A small firm in Wilmington, MA (SOLECTRIA) was converting GEO METROs to electric drive in the late 1980's. Don't know if they are still in business.
    Any other electric cars out there?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Plenty of electric cars were made, most of them "one-offs" for hobby and display purposes, and mot really "conversions", not unique, from the ground up cars. Of course, the new ones from GM and Honda are fully conceived and engineered cars, and as a consequence are a whole lot better than converted Metros!

    Still, electric cars seem to stay pretty firmly glued to the showroom floor. They're going to have
    to get better to compete with gas cars, which perform so much better, and, as of the year 2000, are running pretty darn clean. It's hard to justify buying an electric car other than to say that you are encouraging the industry that produces them. I personally can't afford to subsidize GM or Honda, but maybe others can, and that's okay in my book.

    I drove an electric for 3 days and rather liked it (nicely converted Ford Escort) but always had the "running out of juice" anxiety and felt limited in where I dared to go.
  • super88super88 Member Posts: 2
    Hi car nuts
    Does anyone know how many of these (converted by Hess&Eisenhardt and ASC as the much more produced Eldorados and Riverias of the the same years)were produced per model year. Hard to find in the old price guides and were definately more rare than the Cads and Buicks. Thanks
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That might be a tough number to find!

    As for value, the usual rule of thumb is that a chopped car is worth the same as a well-kept example of the coupe that it was chopped from. Not being "real" cars, they have a big problem in being "collectible". Nonetheless, being open cars, they have the appeal of convertibles and are also vehicles you can drive everyday, so there is some interest among people in owning them. They are more of a fun investment than they will ever be as a financial one. Rarity in this case doesn't count for much, but again, value is based on supply and demand, and if a person wants one badly enough, they'll pay a decent price for a chopped car.
  • super88super88 Member Posts: 2
    Dear Mr.Shiftright,
    I respectfully beg to differ concerning your description "not real cars" of these 1982-1985 "real" GM products. Anyone could and did walk into any of the appropriate"real" GM dealerships and either order or buy off the showroom floor a "real" convertible.
    I'm guessing because of all the hoopla surrounding the so called "last" convertible GM produced(the 1976 Eldorado convertible)and the unfortunate people who thought it would be wise to "speculate" on auto "futures" were like most "burned".
    Though GM in it's rather woeful state had no "legal" assembly line to produce these cars.the aforementioned companies produced these as "regular" GM models along with numerous "T-tops and sunroofs throughout the entire GM lineup during those years.
    If you check you will see the Eldorados and Riviera convertibles from 1982-1985 listed in the well known and respected guides such as "Standard Guide to Cars & Prices" from Krause Publications and are listed with hundreds of other collelctor cars.
    Production figures are available for the Eldo's and Riv's but not the Toro's. These of course were based on the same frames and related chassis works with the unfortunate exception of the rather "dog like" 4400 engine in the Caddy.
    Once again, does anyone know how many
    1982-1985 Olds Toronado convertibles were produced?
    Thank you.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I understand what Super88 is saying, however, In the minds of many, these Riviera and Eldorado conversions aren't "real" convertables.

    I guess I'm one of those people who consider these to be...well..Micky Mouse in nature when compared to a car that went down the assembly line as a real convertable.

    Still, they probably do have a following.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Everything has a following, even Borgwards and Goliaths, but if the following is small, you'd want to pay a price accordingly. Of course, if you just like the car and want one, no harm in that. It's your time and your money, and have fun and enjoy. Life's always better with the top down.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    Picked up a few old magazines at a recent swap meet-one was a Sept 59 issue of "Small Car Parade"-something I'd never seen or heard of. Inside were test reports on all those imports available in the US at that time. I remember many of them-even ones like the Skoda,etc. But this Simca had fins on it with taillights of a 56 Dodge. The report goes on to say that the engine is actually an upgraded Ford V8 60,[from 1940] that had been stroked to 143.5 cubic inches. Apparrently Chrysler bought part of the Simca kit&kaboodle from Ford, which had derived this old V8 for use in the Simca. Never knew that! Anyway, it was an interesting road test. The engine put out 84 HP at 4800rpm. "Lavishly appointed, 6-passenger room, and V8 power." Yeah right. On the next page was a test of the Renault Caravelle. Wonder if there are ANY of those [Simca or Renault]still around? Anyway-interesting reminder of the small car craze in 1959.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There used to be this great group in San Francisco called The Arcane Car Club, and they would show up with cars you wouldn't believe even existed. And they'd drive them, too...most tours were short affairs with lots of breakdowns, which made it more fun, just to see who would survive. Sometimes nobody would make it...usually a support van collected people like a city bus.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    What a riot to watch-kinda like that junkyard story of yours, where you put bricks on the throttle and watched to see which ones blew first. I'd like to see a Renault with a Ferlac clutch do a few steep hills an SF-wonder how long it'd last. Did you already know that that Simca V8 was actually a revamped Ford?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, the Ferlac...I believe it worked by magnetizing iron filings in the torque converter with electrical current. Now you gotta respect lunacy like that!
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    More free advice requested.

    Assuming I can get past the bizarre styling, is this an otherwise wonderful machine? Will it remain so for many years with no more maintenance than the average well-maintained car?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No, it'll be a royal pain in the....neck. If you could live with the two-door Alfa GTV/6, this would be, IMO a better and more fun car. If you need a 4-door, the 164 is okay--it's fast and easily one of the most fun 4-door money can buy, even by today's standards, BUT you must never, NEVER buy the automatic transmission model (it'll be toast in 30,000 miles, even if rebuilt) and you need to hook up right away with a reliable Afla shop (an oxymoron?) If you are in the SF Bay Area I have found two such shops, but it took 10 years of looking. E-mail me.

    In short, the Alfa 4-doors from the late 80s and early 90s are fun cars but require lots of attention. Like Saab, Volvo and Jaguar, Alfa in the past few years is putting out a much better product in the 4-door line. Alfa coupes and roadsters have always been pretty fine.
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    I'm narrowing my search; scanning the horizon for anything and everything that might serve, but as each one gets knocked out, certain old favorites like the GTV6 keep popping back up. I'd consider a nice Alfetta sedan, but I think there are about 3 examples still on the road.

    Here's a really weird one:
    What do you think of the Bertone-bodied mid-70's Ferrari 308 GT4? Since nobody wants them, they're $5K less than the Pininfarina-bodied GTB, which is the world's next-cheapest (almost) Ferrari, which is to say, mid-20's.

    Now obviously rust is a big factor. What about maintenance? I heard that the GTB/GTS has to have its engine removed for periodic maintenance cuz something (not th oil filter, I hope, but who knows) is not accessible. I wonder if the Bertone body is any less restrictive to the mechanic. It certainly looks as though outward vision ought to be a lot better than in most mid-engines.

    Next: Maserati Khamsins in the $25K range.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Gotta be careful of them there exotics.....I don't think you have to pull the engine for major maintenance (I believe that's the Mondial), but still it's gonna cost you $1 a mile to drive one, no matter how you cut it.

    How about the Maserati Indy? Nice car but if you need a clutch you have to remove the engine AND...AND....cut the frame (no kidding).
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    Good Lord! They *are* nice too. And Ghiblis, Mistrals,...How about just drivin without a clutch, like a Beetle with a busted clutch cable.

    I knew a guy who had sold an Islero, then I was over once and the phone rang he says "Aw Jeez, I hope it's not this guy again."

    The buyer was not happy with the car. Turns out he hit the accelerator (gently, he said) and the poor driveshaft, caught between that powerful engine and those grippy (for the day) tires, just twisted and broke off.

    On the other hand, there was a great story in 'Car' a few years ago about a middle-aged English mechanic who bought a 330 GTC back when they were going for around $15 - 20K US. Needed work, but he loved it and was pleased with how robust some (at least *some*) of the parts were. One of his secrets was finding good substitutes for very minor components like electrical switches - not that he was makin it a hatchet job, but just buying an identical part from a cheaper supplier.
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    I can't recall it.

    There was a 365 GT - the pre-Daytona car that looked a lot like a 250 / 275 GTB. The GTB4 was of course the Daytona; not for your budget-conscious Ferrari buyer.

    There was a GTC, a stylistic departure for Pininfarina; probably not much appreciated. I guess I could learn to like it for $20K, but I doubt if that's the one you're referring to.

    I KNOW you don't mean the GT4 BB. That, I would sell the house for and sleep with it in a rented storage space. Let the neighbors talk, and the family disown me. My Boxer and I don't NEED anybody else.

    For a long time the 4-headlight 330 GT was the cheapo. I guess it's finally been accepted by the scognoscenti, or the cognoscenterebbero, or whatever it is. Quelli con piu` soldi che sapenza.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    the 365 GT4 2+2 was not made for US import...mechanically, it is very much like the 365 GTC/4, but stylistically it resembles a two-door sedan. It's got a longer wheelbase, too, and so is heavier. It's not really all that attractive a car, but hey, a big V-12 up front.
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    I found one, but it looks like a 400i, rather than the GTC. In fact it looks like the '76 400i must have been a 365 with an engine upgrade. Jody scheckter had a 400i and loved it, so I guess I can deal with the styling (which I always kinda liked anyhow).

    Anyway, sure. $20K,... I'll take it. Throw in a key fob?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes, that's right, it is almost identical to a 400i....which, by the way, came with an auto. trans option, supplied by....GM! GM also made the transmissions for Rolls Royce and many other prestige cars.
  • mminerbimminerbi Member Posts: 88
    Given the impressive amount of automotive historical knowledge displayed in this topic, does anyone recall the King Midget? It was a U.S. manufactured microcar that was advertised in Popular Mechanics and/or Popular Science in the '50s, and perhaps the early '60s. I never saw a King Midget, except in the ads, and am wondering if any readers have. It bore some styling resemblance to a WWII Jeep, but it was much smaller. As I recall, it had a single cylinder engine, and it could be purchased in either kit form or assembled. The ads gave the impression that it was somewhere between a golf cart and a Crosely in terms of size and utility, with a top speed of perhaps 40 mph.

    The fact that no one has mentioned the King Midget is a testimonial to its insignificance, so I'm posting this inquiry as a trivia item rather than a serious inquiry.
  • mminerbimminerbi Member Posts: 88
    Whoops, I misspelled Crosley.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well, I wouldn't call it totally insignificant. Having survived for 24 years makes it rather more successful than many other upstart car companies that were born after World War II.

    You probaby never saw one because they only made 5,000 total, and with 12 HP one might not expect to see it on the freeway.

    It was Jeep-like in many ways, but I think the Jeep was much more of a "real" car that could take to the highway and actually carry things. The Kigng Midget was closer to a toy car or lower-powered kit car. Gazing down upon one, the word "death-trap" comes to mind.
  • mminerbimminerbi Member Posts: 88
    Thanks, Mr. Shiftright.

    Since posting my message, I did some research. I'm amazed at how many low volume post WWII American cars were introduced, if one counts prototypes, such as the Tucker, that never made it to production. There were probably dozens besides the Kaiser-Frazer and the Crosley. Among those that got beyond the idea and prototype stages was the King Midget. The company was headquartered in Athens, Ohio, and the prices of the King Midget ranged from $290, unassembled, in 1946 to $1,095, fully assembled, in 1969. The most recent models even tried to mimic the styling trends of the times, since they were a foot longer than the earlier ones, and had modest tail fins. Further, after the first two years of production, they substituted a very basic one and two speed automatic transmission for the original three speed manual. The single cylinder "Wisconsin" engine was air cooled.
  • gtt1gtt1 Member Posts: 63
    Any body ever hear of...
    1. Grout
    2. KisselKar
    3. [non-permissible content removed]
    4. Rickenbacker
    5. 65 Mustang 4 spd with factory bench seat
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Rickenbacker is noteworthy as the first "affordable" US car with 4-wheel brakes (1922). Prior to that time, and for some time thereafter, it was thought that brakes on the front wheels would throw the car out of control. In fact, quite a smear campaign was launched against the Rickenbacker for having this "dangerous" feature.

    The others are rather obscure, although the Kissel Kar is interesting in that in 1919 the term "Kar" was dropped, because it sounded too "German" (this was right after WW I, which as you might recall was quite unpleasant.). The Kissel died in 1931, also an interesting date in that many, many beautiful and not-so-wonderful US cars died during the great economic Depression of that time. Cadillac came within a hair's breath of extinction that same year (right down to a vote at a GM board meeting!) Why Cadillac didn't go under is also a fascinating story, if anyone's interested.

    I'm not sure why a 1965 Mustang with a bench seat and a 4-speed is particularly interesting, other than it being a classic case of people getting very excited about rare options that are basically meaningless if you think about it. American cars of that time came with so many options that it was quite possible to order a car that was unlike any other ever built. The problem with that is that if everything is unique, than nothing is, because everybody has something unique. In terms of real monetary value or desirability, a rare option has to be a significant one, like special engine or body design. This is a constant struggle for appraisers to explain to enthusiastic collectors who own the only known '67 Dodge 4-door 6 cylinder automatic Coronet with pink sun visors and want $75,000 for it.
  • badgerpaulbadgerpaul Member Posts: 219
    I know of the Kissel and the Rickenbacker.
    Kissel's were made in Wisconsin into the 1920s.
    The Rickenbacker was named after race car driver and World War I ace of aces, Eddie Rickenbacker. It was one of the first cars to come out with 4 wheel brakes. The other auto makers, especially GM claimed that 4 wheel brakes were unsafe, helping to drive them out of business.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, the [non-permissible content removed]...not what you think...it was named after Mr. [non-permissible content removed], who was called "The Gasoline Doctor".
  • gtt1gtt1 Member Posts: 63
    I am amazed at your knowledge or library. The odd thing about the Rickenbocker is the 6 cyl motor had a flywheel at both ends for balance, but I did not know about the brakes. As for the [non-permissible content removed], it was available if 1901 as a kit car. you assemble! And I belive it was the first to offer optional wheels and tires, depending on where the car is going to be used.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Hi ggt....oh, car history has always fascinated me, since the history of cars includes so many other social and economic issues. In school we basically study a form of history based on the happenings and effects of warfare and politics, but I always thought it would be interesting to teach the history of 20th Century USA strictly from the trends and developments of the automobile.
  • mminerbimminerbi Member Posts: 88
    Shiftright, I seem to recall reading that an early edition of the Nash Ambassador was the first American mass produced car featuring four wheel brakes. Could the distinction be that the
    Rickenbacker didn't qualify as having been mass produced?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No, the historical record seems pretty clear on Rickenbacker having 4-wheel brakes in 1923 and Nash (no Ambassador model until much later), along with just about everyone else jumping on board in 1925 and follwing. The Duesenberg preceeded just about all American cars with 4-wheel brakes, although it's possible an obscure make or two may have done it in the same year as Duesie.

    Rickenbacker would qualify as "mass-produced", since over 30,000 were made.
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    I've heard of it, but not in this context.

    Maybe it means something different in Japanese.

    http://lineup.mazda.co.jp/RV/LAPUTA/index.html
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, that's hysterical...didn't anyone tell them?
    Must not have read Gulliver's Travels.
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    The Japanese marketer or designer might have read the Travels but not, I'll wager, the Latin and romance-language material that a kid in an English public school might have; like, say, the Decamerone in Italian. I'll bet old Swifty chose his terms quite deliberately.

    I think he must be pleased with himself, causing such mirth 3 centuries later. Somebody should name a car after *him*. Suzuki, maybe.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Actually, that would be a nice name for a cute little city car---the Swifty!
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    How about the Suzuki Swift?

    Actually, that's one of the few as yet unmined lists of possible car names - long-dead, highly regarded writers with no surviving descendants who own rights to the name.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    But is the world ready for a Yugo Hugo?
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    there's the Russian manufacturer, "Gaz".

    I'll bet they don't sell a lot of *those* in Italy.

    Then again, maybe I'm out of touch with modern tastes. Maybe the public would flock to products bearing slang names for reproductive equipment. Somehow it seems almost plausible.
  • rea98drea98d Member Posts: 982
    I saw one in a parking lot the other day. Despite the cool sounding name, it reminds me of a first generation Ford Taurus. Sounds german. I thought I'd heard of most makes sold in the US since the 80's, but this one's new to me.
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    As best I recall, it's a German Ford. In a rare moment of insight Ford realized that they couldn't make anything that a certain segment of the market would buy, but that their German subsidiary had been making exactly that kind of car for decades. Duh.

    So they brought it over, but just to ensure failure, just in case somebody might actually walk into the showroom, they gave it a name that most Yanks feel awkward trying to pronounce. In Germany they were called the Sierra.

    I suspect that they were decent cars for their day and their price range. I don't know. Might make a good bargain-basement used sedan to buy now.

    I'll be interested in Shifty's thoughts.
  • badgerpaulbadgerpaul Member Posts: 219
    It was sold in the late 80's at Lincoln-Mercury dealers along with the Merkur.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, the Scorpio is a 4-door car with a V-6, so bigger that the XR4Ti and I think a different platform altogether.

    Merkur as a little cult following, and can give decent though not exceptional performance, but I never found anything extra special about them, and apparently neither did the buying public. Those few people I know who have owned them had quite a lot of trouble with them. But I suppose, since they are cheap, it wouldn't be a bad ride if you could find a clean turbo XR4Ti and pay no more than $2,000 for it and keep your fingers crossed. That way you could bail if the car starts to torment you.
  • badgerpaulbadgerpaul Member Posts: 219
    I sold cars at a Lincoln-Mercury dealer in the mid 80's and the Merkur didn't exactly leap off the lot in to the arms of anxious buyers.
    At the time I think they stickered for around 18,000 but with the incentives you could buy one for 13,000.
    They also had a big factory incentive to the salesperson who could actually sell one. I managed to sell three of them one month and was the top Merkur salesman in the district, and pocketed about 4000 in incentives.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Very poor marketing on the Merkur....
  • badgerpaulbadgerpaul Member Posts: 219
    It certainly wasn't a car you would expect to find at a LM dealer, or be able to sell to the type of people who bought cars there.
    It was also ugly, with a blown Pinto engine, but when when the turbo spooled up it would go like stink.
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    What are your thoughts about that short-lived marque?
This discussion has been closed.