Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

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Comments

  • xccoachlouxccoachlou Member Posts: 245
    Subaru sales declined by about 5,000 units, and the new Forester didn't sell as well as the old.

    From what I've been reading on the boards, and I could be wrong, the new 04 Foresters will be arriving in the Spring/Early Summer.

    I'd be surprised if there is a price increase. What rationale, if any, did the dealer provide?

    - Lou
  • sfdriversfdriver Member Posts: 35
    They weren't sure. One speculated Subaru was hurting from the US Dollar devaluation. He just gave me a call and told me his incoming invoices for his new base foresters are $300 higher. He's still committed to selling to me @ invoice, whether I buy now or next month, so he won't be making any more $$. Sounds honest enough so I don't think he's making this up.
  • wrxsoon1wrxsoon1 Member Posts: 158
    I just found the same info (no details or explanation) on a local dealers website. All it says is, "SOA: price increase in February."

    -Ian
  • jimbob17jimbob17 Member Posts: 77
    I "lived" in Florida before AC was common place.
    BIG bugs, heat, snakes, gators and quicksand.
    I remember getting ready to go somewhere and being soaked in sweat before you walked out the front door.

    I do like the Shenandoah Valley, the Blue Ridge and the Endless Mountains of Pa. I guess its because the four seasons are well defined.
  • dundas4everdundas4ever Member Posts: 8
    For us "normally aspirated" Forester fans, any idea what we can expect in the way of changes for the "garden variety" 2004?
    Currently driving a '99 RX 300 - nice ride, but driving experience is right up there with "kissing your sister" - have always had a soft spot for Subarus and the recent changes to the '03 Forester have only raised my interest more. Not really into turbos though - any predictions - thanx
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Well, I think the biggest change to the Forester line-up for MY2004 will be the turbo. I don't think there will be any other engine added to the line up, unfortunately.

    We'll probably see small additions a la Subaru. In the past, these things have been items such as keyless entry becoming standard or maybe a tweak to the interior trim.

    Is there a reason why you don't like turbos? Chances are the Forester turbo will be a low pressure 2.5T or a detuned 2.0T used in the WRX. In any event, the engine will most likely be tuned for low-end power. Also, recent turbos are nothing like those of yesteryear. Turbocharging is a reliable way of delivering good performance in a compact and lightweight package. If you take a look, many European models (VW, Audi, Volvo and MB to name a few) all offer one form of forced induction.

    Ken
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Personally, I'd prefer PA too! Besides, there's more opportunity in PA to take full advantage of your Forester!

    tidester, host
  • burnsmr4burnsmr4 Member Posts: 318
    I have a 2002 Subaru Forester S with a little over 16K miles on it. I brought it in for the late 15K mile service this morning and found out that my local dealership is charging me $135 for the service. Some of the things that they are doing that ARE NOT in the Subaru service booklet include replacing the transmission and brake fluids. Also possibly (depending on wear) replace the air filter.

    From reading the service manual that came with the car, they should only be doing the oil change, tire balance/rotation, and some minor inspections of the brakes and other systems.

    So...am I getting hosed? I'm stuck with the service now, since I didn't have time to haggle with them before getting to work via the dealership shuttle.

    Thanks,
    burnsmr4

    P.S. - Also getting that parking rod recall done today too.
  • dcabdcab Member Posts: 101
    I've noticed that silver paint is flaking off our 6 month old 03 Forester muffler revealing a black color underneath. Is this normal? Our 97 Outback muffler is six years old and in great shape. Is it made of a different (i.e., better) material?

    I called 800-SUBARU3 to ask but the service rep said that she didn't have this "technical information."
  • rochcomrochcom Member Posts: 247
    Really, the only things that are required are changing oil and filter, topping up fluids, and visual inspection of belts and hoses.

    At the dealership I go to, they do that for any regular oil change. They charge about what you quoted for the 15,000 and add cleaning and lubricating the brake calipers, rotating and balancing the tires, and a few other items that have little or no value.

    Cars require much less service than they used to, and dealers have tried to maintain their service income by packaging in new services that are nice if you can afford them, but not really necessary. It is not necessary to rebalance tires unless there is a vibration problem. Rotation may be a good idea, but you can do it yourself, or have it done at a lower labor rate at a service station or tire shop. If you have a shop do it, however, the labor cost will often exceed what you would pay to replace the tires sooner. (For replacement tires, many tire shops include free rotation for the life of the tire). The brake service may or may not be a good idea depending on usage. If you go off-road a lot or drive in severe winter conditions, maybe.

    Many delaers still sell "tuneups" that are included in the major service packages. The only things that can be done in most modern cars are to replace plugs and the PCV valve. No timing or fuel adjustments are possible.

    I have gone to my dealer and said just do exactly what Subaru recommends and do no more. The 15,000 mile services then equal the cost of an oil change, the 30/60/90 thousand mile packages that are usually $300-$400 reduce to $150-$180. If the dealer service people are any good, they will let you know if you really need anything else.
  • burnsmr4burnsmr4 Member Posts: 318
    [INSERT EXPLETIVE HERE] Well, it looks like I got fleeced, then, on the service this morning. If anyone else has paid what I'm going to pay for this 15K service, let me know. It'll make me feel better. :-)

    Later,
    burnsmr4
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    $135 for ATF and Oil Change and Brake fluid is a BARGAIN, IMHO. Although it isn't required, you didn't pay too much for those services.

    -mike
  • bsvollerbsvoller Member Posts: 528
    If you've had your '02 for close to 2 years, it's time for the tranny and brake fluid anyways. Maybe you're early by a couple of months, but no harm in that.

    It cost me close to $80 to have the tranny and diffy fluids replaced last year (I tow), so $135 for the 15k plus a brake and tranny fluid replacement isn't too far a stretch...

    If you're really early, you can put off the next round by the same timeframe.

    Hope this helps with the aggravation...

    -brianV
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Why would they increase prices? This is about the time rebates kick in. Makes no sense to me.

    As for the changes for the non-turbo 2004, I'm hoping they add back the things that were cost-cut from the 2002 models, like the mud guards and the cargo liner. I think there was one other item, the cargo cover or something like that? Just make those standard again. In particular the mud guards.

    I agree with paisan, $135 is dirt cheap for all that they're doing. OK, it may not be required, but please share their name for future reference, my 60k is due soon.

    I've done gear oil and it's much messier than plain oil because it's much thicker and stinks like crazy.

    -juice
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    burnsmr4,

    While you did have more than what's minimally required in the maintenance schedule, getting fluids replaced a little sooner is a good thing. Relax -- you didn't get fleeced.

    Just remember that the BIG tuneups are at every 30K interval.

    For any service interval, you should be able to custom tailor it to your needs. Dealers will typically add more than the minimum in the owner's manual. And in some ways, it makes sense since the minimum assumes the vehicle had been driven under ideal conditions.

    It's up to you to know what has to be done and what can wait. Also, little things like the air filter and even some of your fluids are very easy to do it yourself. Investing a little time to get to know your vehicle can go a long way in saving money.

    Ken
  • burnsmr4burnsmr4 Member Posts: 318
    Thanks for the feedback folks.

    You're right about my doing it myself. I could if I had the right environment to do so. However, as an apartment renter, there are are tight restrictions on the things I can get away with in my complex' parking lot. And the only buddy of mine that has lifts for changing out stuff under the car lives 50 miles south of Atlanta.

    Trust me -- I'd LOVE to do it if I wasn't stuck in an apartment. When my wife and I buy a house, the local Subaru dealership won't be seeing me very often at all. :-D

    Thanks again -- if no one's told you today, you guys/gals rock!

    burnsmr4
  • gened1gened1 Member Posts: 256
    I just got the parking rod recall done last Friday and I asked if they changed the transmission fluid to do the service and they said yes.I have about 6900 miles on my 02 Forester. They shouldn't have charged you for changing that. Also it only took about 1/12-2 hours to do that and an oil change.I had a coupon so it came to about $25 total!
    Gene
  • jimbob17jimbob17 Member Posts: 77
    I took the 03 Forester in for the 6K visit. All it needed was oil and filter change and tires rotated. I cant remember but I think it was about $39.
    The 6K package was (I think) $89. I asked what was the difference. They told me and I said wouldnt the state inspection mechanic (yearly in Pa.) do the same thing for $15 or so? They told me yes so I got what the warranty required.
    Its still running fine.
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    Just had both diffys and tranny fluid changed along with new plugs. Cost = $144.

    Greg
  • burnsmr4burnsmr4 Member Posts: 318
    ...I paid for the service. They wouldn't have knocked off but about $10 for the tranny fluid anyway, even if they did admit that they charged me for it when it was part of the recall.

    I'll be a bit more careful in the future with this dealership and the service department. The old guy that runs it is a Subaru guru, but I think he's under pressure to charge out the wazoo for stuff too. He offered, after I complained about what appeared to be a NO TIRE ROTATION 15K service, to make sure that I had the timing belt lifter adjusted to reduce cold weather clatter. He noticed it when he drove the car up from the service bay.

    Oh, well...

    burnsmr4
  • kate5000kate5000 Member Posts: 1,271
    burnsmr4:

    this what SC dealership includes and charges for at 15K service (as per their brochure), for a total of $277:

    --- 3750 service:
    1. Replace engine oil
    2. Replace engine oil filter
    3. Replace engine drain plug gasket
    4. Set tire pressure/advise on tire condition
    5. Check/top off underhood fluid levels
    6. Free car wash
    --- 7500 service (includes above) --------
    7. Rotate tires
    8. Balance F and R tires
    9. Check spare, set pressure
    10. Inspect brake lining, estimate remaining %
    11. Inspect steerin/suspension
    12. Check operation of outside lights
    13. Check and adjust external drive belts
    14. Check and adjust ignition timing and idle speed
    15. Road test for proper performance and operation
    --- 15K service (includes above)--
    16. Check and adjust parking brake
    17. Replace air filter
    18. Add washer solvent/inspect wiper blades and front/rear washer operation
    19. For MT only: Adjust clutch pedal free-play and hill-holder system where applicable
    20. Replace transmission fluid
    21. Replace differential fluid (front and rear)
    22. Service battery
    23. Check coolant protection (good to ______degrees F) and Air Condition (cools to ____ degrees F)

    Their cost is pretty high, but I liked the results so far. Also, I'm paying with SubaruBucks anyway, it helps to make service less of a burden on the budget.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    ...and they let you rent a Subaru for $20/day while they're servicing your vehicle. :-)

    Ken
  • rsay777rsay777 Member Posts: 100
    Does anyone know at what point the cabin air is filtered? i.e. when the system is on re-circ is the air being pulled through the filter? or is it only when pulling in outside air? Thanks in advance? Bob L.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Haven't seen the ducts that close to be able to say. But my guess it yes, even on recirc the filter should be working, to filter out interior dust. In fact my windows are usually closed and the interior still gets dirty.

    -juice
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I haven't taken a look at the 2003 system, but for other Forester models the air always gets cycled through the filter. The cabin filter sits right by the A/C heat exchanger where all air -- recycled or fresh -- flows through.

    Ken
  • secretariat73secretariat73 Member Posts: 47
    I am looking at the Bridgstone Turanza LS - T, a new design that is said to be better than most all-seasons in snow and rain, and has a design that is claimed to maintain original traction as the tire wears. Reports by a small number (24) of users rate it as the best in snow of any all-season in the Tire Rack survey. It also rates very high in most other categories. The H-rated version is rated much lower in snow traction. Does anyone have any experience with this tire?

    I just replaced the OEM Bridgestones on my 2002 L with the LS-T's, based on the same info you noted, about 2 weeks ago. Before then - 42" of snow here , but since then, just a few traces. The tires seem pretty good, but I haven't driven in enough snow to really judge them yet (but I will - I recently moved to NH!). I definitely notice more road feel - bumps are more noticeable. I paid $372 with all mounting, etc, but had to special order them as the tire dealer (Town Fair Tires) doesn't keep them in stock. What sort of pricing have you been given?

    -Steven-
  • secretariat73secretariat73 Member Posts: 47
    I am looking at the Bridgestone Turanza LS - T, a new design that is said to be better than most all-seasons in snow and rain, and has a design that is claimed to maintain original traction as the tire wears. Reports by a small number (24) of users rate it as the best in snow of any all-season in the Tire Rack survey. It also rates very high in most other categories. The H-rated version is rated much lower in snow traction. Does anyone have any experience with this tire?

    I just replaced the OEM Bridgestones on my 2002 L with the LS-T's, based on the same info you noted, about 2 weeks ago. Before then - 42" of snow here , but since then, just a few traces. The tires seem pretty good, but I haven't driven in enough snow to really judge them yet (but I will - I recently moved to NH!). I definitely notice more road feel - bumps are more noticeable. I paid $372 with all mounting, etc, but had to special order them as the tire dealer (Town Fair Tires) doesn't keep them in stock. What sort of pricing have you been given?

    -Steven-
  • gregoreargregorear Member Posts: 5
    Maybe I'm not the most observant person in the world, but...

    I got my brand new 2003 Forester 2.5XS in October. I'm pretty sure it was perfect then, and the pictures I took of it don't show otherwise.

    I happened to notice today that there are numerous hairline scratches all over my vehicle. There is a scratch that runs along the side of the roofline, all along the length of the driver's side. There is a scratch that surrounds the moonroof. There are circular scratches that surround the wiper wash nozzles on the hood. And a few more.

    Anybody else notice this? Take a really good, close look. What is going on?
  • dcabdcab Member Posts: 101
    I posted this yesterday and didn't get responses. Is anyone else's muffler "peeling"? Is this normal/acceptable? Does anyone know if Subaru mufflers are made of different material today than they were in 1997?

     #9200 of 9218 muffler by dcab Jan 23, 2003 (9:38 am)
    I've noticed that silver paint is flaking off our 6 month old 03 Forester muffler revealing a black color underneath. Is this normal? Our 97 Outback muffler is six years old and in great shape. Is it made of a different (i.e., better) material?

    I called 800-SUBARU3 to ask but the service rep said that she didn't have this "technical information."
  • dcabdcab Member Posts: 101
    What color is your Forester? I haven't noticed anything on our silver Forester, but then again it's been covered with salt and dirt for quite a while.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    When was the last time you waxed your Forester? Do you wash your Forester by yourself or run it through an automatic washer? Hairline scratches (very fine ones that you see at certain light angles) occur easily from any abrasive material going over your paint. Even a rough towel can cause them if you're not careful. Usually the appearance of hairline scratches is a sign that 1)it's time for a new coat of wax or 2)your detailing needs to be a little more gentle.

    The muffler paint-thing is probably nothing to worry about. I don't have it, but my friend has it on his 2000 Forester. He had the dealer look at it and they told him not to worry. Point it out to the dealer next time and see what they say. At the very least, have them document it so it's on record.

    Ken
  • gregoreargregorear Member Posts: 5
    I have a silver Forester.

    I just took it to a pro car wash today. I understand that abrasions can happen, but a perfectly circular scratch around both washer nozzles? And one all the way around the moonroof?

    This looks like a defect of some kind, like where two different materials meet, the paint is coming off somehow.
  • dundas4everdundas4ever Member Posts: 8
    Turbophobic?

    Thanks Kens and Juice for your thoughts on the non-turbo Forester in '04.

    Kens - its not that I have a problem with turbos, I guess I'm just a little concerned with any addtional maintenance, insurance costs, etc., that may be associated with that type of engine.

    Besides, I think the Forester is exactly what it should be - just the right size and power - for me, anyway.

    I am hoping to see a few items that the Japanese version gets (eg integrated arm rests, but even more colour combinations would be appreciated.

    BTW - thinking about the Premium packge with sunroof - any comments on how it affects rear headroom - I have a 14 yearold whose already 6' tall!

    Thanks in advance.
  • lakepoplakepop Member Posts: 221
    Kens....was thinking today about when the weather would break in my part of the country (WNY) and when I could get the layered salt/grime off my Forester. Thankfully its been so cold rust cannot form. I also thought about the beating the thing takes every time a semi bombs pass me on the slushy thruway and plasters me with the imbedded salt/gravel/debris. Its my only machine and I think highly of it.....I need to get the crud off it .....I thought while driving home today in a moderate snowfall.
       Now I'm home....read your post about how a rough towel would mar your detailing ........thank you ....I needed to read that and now somehow I sense the difference in how we view our machines. I'm saying this in a nice way (I hope) and in an offbeat way your post made me feel good and smile.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    gregorear: That does sound strange. Perfectly symmetrical scratches are seldom from detailing. I'd follow up with the dealer on that one ASAP -- cosmetic things get less attention after the 1st year of ownership.

    lakepop: Yeah, I'm over here in 60 degree weather in California. I used to go to school in Ithaca so I can imagine what you're going through!

    Ken
  • joseph50joseph50 Member Posts: 235
    I remember Juice pointing out that what makes a great wet tire makes a lousy snow tire.
    I will be looking for an all-season replacement for my Geolanders in a year or so, thus I checked out the tread pattern of the Turanza.
    Looks like a tire that will do fine in the rain,
    so the conjecture is that it would do lousy in the snow.
    Keep us posted on the real life snow performance,
    please.
  • lvilarinlvilarin Member Posts: 1
    I am planning on stopping by a few dealers tomorrow and need some advice on the going price for a 2003 XS Forester w/ Premium Package Automatic (standard set of options).

    A local dealer quoted me $23,400, but I suspect that since it's the end of the month and that they're trying to get rid of last year's model that I can get the car for $22,200 or so.

    I would appreciate any comments or suggestions on how to figure out if there are any Dealer holdbacks or incentives out there (in addition to the low financing).

    Thanks in advance.
  • xccoachlouxccoachlou Member Posts: 245
    I have seen them online for 22,280 and 22,475, but that is for a stick. If you can get an auto for that price, I want to know where!

    - Lou
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    Greg-
    Those lines you see may not be scratches.
    It could be adhesive residue from the wraps that comes with the car.
    If indeed they are scratches, well, it is not that you're not observant. A good thick glazing by the dealer can mask hairline scratches until you wash them off. Go wax the car. :)

    -Dave
  • taft4taft4 Member Posts: 57
    The end of October I priced the two closest dealers for a 2.5XS with premium and leather plus two option packages. The MSRP was $26,802 and I paid $24,450 (plus tax of course). There was a spread of $1,200 between the two dealers on identical cars. I am satisfied with this price.
  • rochcomrochcom Member Posts: 247
    I had the Brigestones installed on Thursday. I then drove on roads that were covered with a thin layer of "greeze." For those of you who do not live in snow country, greeze is what happens when the temperature is just at the point where salt will not completely melt the snow, so they use a mixture of salt and sand. The thin layer of unmelted snow mixed with the salt and sand forms a surface that feels like driving on grease -- some forward traction, but little lateral stability for emergency maneuvers.

    Anyway, at first I did not notice a great improvement in traction. However, I (unscientifically) attribute that to the fact that there was no dry pavement to wear off the coating of silicone mold release compound on the tire (used in manufacturing to help remove the tire from the mold in which it is made). Also, it takes tires anywhere from 50 to 200 miles to take a "set," that is, to conform completely to the road surface.

    The next day, I made a 100 mile round trip on roads that presented surfaces that were either wet, dry, covered with thin packed snow, or a layer of greeze. By the end of the trip, it was evident that, in spite of the tread NOT looking like anything resembling a winter tire, these had grip that was better than either the original Geolandars or the Goodrich Touring T/As that I used before.

    The lowest cost for these locally was $106 each plus tax. Mail order from Tire Rack is $73 plus at this location, $9 each for shipping, plus $18 for local mounting and balancing, plus tax on that part. I chose to go to a tire dealer that has a reputation for excellent service and offers lifetime rotation and flat repair, a one year full replacement warranty, and free alignment checks, so I paid a bit more. This is for the 215-60-16 size, that is usually disproportionately more expensive. And here too, no one had them in stock.
  • jimbob17jimbob17 Member Posts: 77
    I know just what you mean about adhesive residue. When I washed my 03 Forester X I saw what I thought was box cutter scratches for sure. I called the salesman who told me to bring it in the next day. For some reason, later, I went out with a little wax and rubbed the spots and they disappeared. They sure looked like scratches. I called the salesman and told him to call back the cavalry.
  • retiredguyretiredguy Member Posts: 67
    I have road tested a 2003 Forester in a city setting..didn't get to do any hwy driving..some reviewers say the auto transmission is too fast on up shifts and too slow on down shifts..I didn't notice any "problem" but did not try to make the transmission down shift..any comments..

    Is the Forester generally quiet at 60-80 on freeways? My 96 Saturn sl 1 can have wind noise in heavy cross winds but is fine otherwise..

    Thanks...
  • dbenjamin1dbenjamin1 Member Posts: 12
    23.4 for a xs with premium? Wow. where are you and what dealer? We're on the fence between the X and the std XS as I thought 22K even would be a
    "aggressive" offer to the dealer. But, if we could swing one with all the goodies for under 23, we might go for it.
    Invoice on the std XS is around 21.5, so w/ auto and destination, I figured 22K would be fair. Any thoughts from the gang?
    TIA
    db in Rhode Island
  • gened1gened1 Member Posts: 256
    These wheels(see the link below) were on the Mercury Messenger at the Detroit auto show. I would like to know who makes them and think they would look great downsized to 16's on a Forester.(Click on the photo.)

    http://www.autoweek.com/specials/2003_detroit/index2.mv#mercury
    Does anyone know?
    Gene
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    One thing to keep in mind is that Subaru, like many other manufacturers, use an "adaptive" automatic transmission system that tries to learn your particular driving style over time. I believe a good deal of reviews such as you mentioned happen because the reviewer simply didn't spend enough time on it. There are many 4EAT owners on the Subaru Crew and they'll all stand behind the fact that the shift points do change over time.

    I do believe the Forester is quiet for a boxy wagon on the freeways. It's not going to be quiet as a sedan, but that's really an apples-to-oranges comparison. Tire selection also plays a big role in overall noise as well.

    db -- Did you check Edmund's TMV pricing for the XS? Lots of Subaru dealers will price from invoice up (not MSRP down). If you're paying within $2-300 of invoice, you're getting a good deal.

    Gene -- Isn't that a prototype vehicle? I think the fastest way to find out is to give Mercury a call.

    Ken
  • ibizanibizan Member Posts: 1
    For me it's the turbo in the '04 Forester that has me considering it. I've been trying to nail down a release date and with the '04 Impreza WRX due out by April, I was hoping the Forester Turbo would follow suit.

    I'll be moving back to the States in July and plan on buying the WRX wagon to drive around my family (son, dog, and She Who Must Be Obeyed). It's the responsiveness of the WRX and the functionality of the wagon that swayed me over. However, the latest reports I found mentioned an August release of the '04 Forester with a detuned 2.5 turbo and 250-260 hp. A separate report also mentioned an air scoop on the hood, uprated suspension system, and 17" wheels/performance tires. For me this warrants serious consideration because lack of acceleration is one thing that I've always been disappointed with in today's mid-range SUVs. If the release date of the '04 Forester turbo holds true, I may be in a serious purchasing dilemma when I go out to buy my WRX. Personally, I think a similar engine option for the Outback would make just as much sense.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the 2.5 turbo is still a rumor, although I'd say it's about a 95% certainty; but that's just a gut feeling on my part.

    I'd be very surprised if the Forester turbo puts out 250 - 260 HP. My guess is that it will be around 215 - 220 HP. I really don't think it will have more power than the WRX.

    Bob
  • cbmortoncbmorton Member Posts: 252
    Subaru Canada announced that the Forester turbo will be shown at the Canadian International Auto Show in Toronto (14-23 Feb). If that holds true then we're not far off having an idea of the release date.
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    I share your dilemma, ibizan, when it comes to my next Subaru purchase. If the performance of the expected Forester turbo is close to that of the current WRX - never mind the WRX STi, let's not get greedy here - it will be a very tough decision. The Forester's selling points then will be the slightly larger and more useful cargo space (due to the squared-off cargo area) and its more subtle, "stealthier" appearance. WRXes attract a lot of unwanted attention from wannabe street racers and law enforcement and that's not something I'm after.

    The flip side is that the WRX is such a blast to drive, its seats are far more supportive than the Forester's, and quite frankly it's a better handler due to the overall lower stance.

    Ah, decisions. Sometimes it's good to be a consumer...

    Ed
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