Looking at the Big Picture only to learn that its only a small piece of the Big Puzzle. The Consumer Report survey was done in 2006 and thats about when the price at the pump started to rise. I recall it well since 2005 is when I traded off my Tahoe. Prior, GM/UAW made an excellent V8 which got reasonable mileage (over 25 mpg). The Camaro Z28 had the same VETT motor and provided both power and good gas mileage, EPA 26 mpg highway rating. If you opted for something like Honda or Toyota you gave up 300 horsepower of power. So therefore it was a no brainer as far as the consumer was concerned and demanded. Most folks just didn't want to buy an econobox , at least not most of the middle class. I think it took all these years, since the 1970s embargo, to develop the technology/engineering to produce the replacement of the great American cars. There was also the SUV which appealed to the families and was a status symbol. This symbol was developed with the Hummer being the gold standard. As gas prices rose, the H3 Hummer was developed with a 5 cylinder engine to counter the price of fuel. At the moment those who own these massive SUVs are taking a beating in resale, as well as the pump. This American dream has turned into a nightmare for these folks as many are in upside down on a loan, (owing more than the SUV is worth).
If the govt had taxed gas, the race to innovate would have begun sooner. However, the market forces which have caused fuel to rise will do the same thing. How soon is the only question on the next generation of transportation evolution.
The only other thing which concerns me is the health cost concern. The Toyota/Honda employees enjoy a national health benefit, which the Big Three must factor into the cost of a car. The rising cost of health care makes this significant. So one could look at that advantage as a govt subsidy from Japan to their auto industry. The American govt needs to address this issue if we are to level the playing field or allow the UAW worker the same opportunity. It should be noted that for years now the govt of Japan has also protected their agriculture and kept the cost beef extremely high to the consumer in Japan. American farmers have been locked out of the market in Japan to protect these special people in an inefficient manner.
When the UAW workers are gone the only ones that will notice are the members themselves. The smart ones are looking elsewhere for a good job. UAW workers have had 20 years of the handwriting on the wall.
Where are those so-called good jobs ??? My cousin Lisa, just graduated as a x-ray tech from Grand Valley, over a month ago and still can't find a job in her field.
The "good jobs" are everywhere, one has to be willing to go to the job...if she, like you, insists on staying in a dying state like Michigan, of course she will complain that "nobody is hiring"...she needs to go where the job is, which may not be down the street from where she wants to live...
dallas: "Why are all this countries woes blamed on the UAW?"...I do NOT blame all this country's woes on the UAW...but the UAW does make a good poster boy (girl?) for the fact that floorsweepers are not worth the hourly rate they are paid, as there is no more unskilled labor than a floorsweeper...but they make far above the minimum wage, when the job is hardly worth was the minimum wage was back in 1980...so the UAW stands as an example of the reason why manufacturing has been shipped overseas, where the floorsweeper is paid $2-3 per hour, approximately what it is worth...
The UAW is part of an industry that did, at one time, involve 1 in every 6 jobs in America, plus the UAW has been the most militant and VOCAL, striking to keep floorsweepers earning what they do, and striking to keep lousy drunk workers (not all of them, but the ones who ARE lousy and drunk) on the line...like it or not, it was management with poor designs and UAW labor forgetting door screws and leaving out other parts that simply drove (no pun intended) Americans away from their product...
When you avoid a product because it looks lousy, blame management for poor design...
But when you buy the product, find out parts are missing or things simply do not work (windows out of channels, parts mounted crooked, etc.) and you have now lost your financial a** on a piece of junk, you will blame the people who MADE the car...and you may avoid Big 3 cars altogether, because the same lackeys who made the Ford also make GM and Chrysler...
I would bet that more people left Big 3 due to quality problems which are LABOR problems, whereas if it was poor design problems, i.e. management, you never saw them buy the product anyway, they just left the dealer and drove to Honda outright...
If the big 3 quality is so very bad and honyota, is so very good then why are people crashing all these Lexus, cars up with sticking pedals. We all hear and read about Lexus, being the pinnacle of quality from people like yourself and Import Reports, but it's those pesky UAW, folks are putting half-assembled cars togeather now according to you. I, my family, friends, have owned several automobiles in our lifetime and I'm yet to hear about any of my relatives, friends, buying new automobiles with missing parts !!! :confuse:
My mother OTOH ordered a brand new 99' Tahoe Sport that was made in Mexico, that had a large torn leather seat and you want to talk about quality control ??? I guess since it was made in Mexico, you can't spill your hate on those lazy, no-good, drunk, UAW workers !!!! :sick:
I've read that the future GM, will look like this.
Chevrolet
Pontiac
Cadillac
GMC
Hummer, will be sold. Buick, will go down the same way as Oldsmobile. Saturn, could either be sold or decommissioned. Saab, is still unknown but I read likely to be sold !!! Anyone else read anything similar in their papers oh a week or so ago ???
The Toyota/Honda employees enjoy a national health benefit, which the Big Three must factor into the cost of a car.
Not for all the Toyota and Honda workers in the USA. I think about half the Toyota vehicles are now built in the USA. They have the same things to contend with as the Big 3. It is past contracts, retirees etc that are dragging the Big 3 down.
When I became a Teamster in 1971 we had 100% medical, dental, eye care and legal for LIFE. When I retired in 2006 the medical had big deductibles, dental was next to worthless and $100 every two years for eye care. Legal was gone. Retirees no longer covered unless you paid the $900 per month premium. Our plan was Alaska Teamster self supporting. It was the members that ran it into the ground. They would go in for a cold or an ingrown toenail. Free medical ends up a disaster. Make the co-pay high enough and people only use the plan when sick.
The UAW needs to realize they are in the 21st century.
What parts of the US has she applied? If she is in Michigan, we have already told you it is quickly becoming a retirement and vacation land. Though I would expect an X-Ray tech would be in demand in most large cities.
gagrice: "Though I would expect an X-Ray tech would be in demand in most large cities."...yes, assuming that she was safe trying to get from Point A to Point B...when I was there in the 80s it was worse than a toxic waste dump, and 25 years have passed, only getting worse...and, if she is listening to rocky in terms of where the "opportunity" lies, she is pounding the dying cities of Michigan...
rocky: "I, my family, friends, have owned several automobiles in our lifetime and I'm yet to hear about any of my relatives, friends, buying new automobiles with missing parts "...once again, rocky, the Big 3 are not shrinking because of those of you who bought cars that were accidentally built correctly, but the waves of people who have deserted the Big 3 number in the millions over the last 20 years, and it is THEY who are the cause of the shrinking...
You really do not get it...it isn't the people who are happy with the product, it is the sheer numbers of people who have been (or feel they have been, as perception is THEIR reality) screwed by Big 3 junk...
For the many of you who would buy nothing but Big 3, I applaud you, but you stick your collective heads in the sand and say, "What quality problems?" when people with differing definitions of "quality" are going to imports in droves...
Raving about your vehicle is simply the opposite of chicken little...instead of seeing a quality problem that millions of others see (and, most importantly, take their money elsewhere) you jsyt think that since your car is good, that others will follow...they aren't...they are lost to the Big 3, maybe forever...certainly Big 3 will survive, thanks to loyalists like you...but they will be half their former size, or less, because of everybody else who did feel like they bought junk...so, while you wonder where everybody else has gone, simply opeing your eyes will tell you that the apparent image of quality that YOU see is not the image mainatined by everybody else...
And, think of all those folks who never even heard of the UAW or unions...they have still deserted the Big 3 for SOME REASON, and I would bet that exorbitant management pay isn't even on their radar screen, but the feel and quality of the vehicle is what they can see and put their hands on, and listen when the engine hums, and the thunk when the door closes...Big 3 simply do not have it, and all of your rah-rah will not bring it back, but a well made product just might...is a well made product, the envy of the world, even ON the UAW's radar screen, or simply a lower deductible for their Blue Cross???
When the UAW is down to one member, that person may have 100% medical coverage with zero deductible...the other 750,000 that are gone forever will pay cash until Medicare kicks in...but at least the union will have preserved the benefit, even if only for one member...and please have that member turn off the lights when the leave the factory...
You really do not get it...it isn't the people who are happy with the product,
Rocky you know Bob is right on this one. I was a big time HonToy basher and sold on GM until I bought that 2005 GMC PU. That was my 5th GM truck since 1988. It was the only one built by the UAW. Rest were Canada or Mexico. I had no issues other than a couple recalls over all those vehicles. My doors on the 05 GMC never fit right, even after 3 times at the dealer. That I blame on workmanship. The design and cheap tinny sheet metal I blame on Management. So the UAW and GM management ran me off. The other real issue is the Big 3 did not keep up with the times. The Big 3 management has the same mentality as the UAW. They felt they were ENTITLED to our loyalty as consumers. They banged out a lot of poorly designed small cars that were not in a league with the Japanese. Did the UAW ever strike a plant that was building poor quality cars like the Pinto? Did the UAW ever say we are proud and do not want to put the UNION Label on this kind of crap cars? If not they have to accept at least part of the responsibility.
PS I would have traded my 05 GMC on an 07 Denali if the dealer did not try to rip me off on the trade. Their loss, I got what I wanted for the PU and a great deal on the superior (in most ways) Sequoia built in Indiana. I do wish it had the GMC stereo and climate control system. Hard finding a perfect vehicle these days.
Question: If quality control is NOT a bargained for issue (and I assume that this could be a slippery slope as to what the definition of quality is,and what the threshold of "sub-standard quality" is) then what leg would the UAW have to stand on to strike, and not risk getting fired over?
Make the co-pay high enough and people only use the plan when sick.
If you're planning that put in a maximum annual co-pay so you don't bankrupt people who have serious chronic problems while trying to nail the other folk.
I'm one of those folks with chronic stuff so I'm a little touchy on the subject.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
The plan I bought from Kaiser was a $2000 deductible. I paid $263 per month and any charges up to a maximum of $2000 in a year. That protected me from a catastrophic illness. Most plans have a cap on out of pocket expense. Many areas do not have any good alternatives. My wife's co-pay is $20 for an office visit and $135 for ER. I think that is quite reasonable. She pays $5 for prescriptions. She has Kaiser from a long time ago and has a good plan. Next year she goes on Medicare. I have no idea how that is. Our Teamster Union plan had one BIG fault. It was limited to $1,000,000 over your lifetime. Kaiser has no limit.
All strikes are shaky at best. If a local walked out because the automaker was having them assemble known shoddy cars, the public sentiment would be with them. When they walkout on GM at a factory that is making the only thing GM is selling it is just the opposite public reaction. The UAW shot themselves in the foot with the last couple walkouts.
So California is very weak on Unions. The general opinion is they are a drag on society. Here most of the Union construction work is gone. When my Dad and Uncles were in the Carpenters Union during the 1940s & 50s they had most of the projects. Not anymore. Small subs and with a lot of piece work. No benefits. More cash than the IRS would like. With the housing bubble burst there is little construction of any kind.
That's not bad. I have a nice plan now that will become less so when I retire. It will still not be awful.
Once I hit 65 I have to take Medicare as primary and then my current insurance becomes the secondary policy. As long as things stay relatively stable this will be all right.
I've seen enough of the ER to last me forever.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Let''s just hope that will not continue. I have been there with my wife and I don't want to repeat it. My Medicare supplement with Kaiser is only $30 per month. I thought that was great. They do take $96 out of my Social Security. Better than the $263 I was paying before. I should go get a physical and see who my doctor will be.
I still do not understand why the Big 3 pay health care for retirees with Medicare. At least after they are 65. We all paid big bucks for that coverage over the years. Just because Uncle Sam has borrowed $3.5 TRILLION from Social Security does not mean it is gone. The Feds still owe it to those that have paid in. Those that have not paid in do not deserve anything. IMO.
I do ??? I agree your 2005 GMC pick-up wasn't as well built as it could of been. The GMT-800's were IMHO junk as far as body and interior went. I owned a 2000 Z-71 Chevy and saw a lot of room for improvement and then in 2007 the Chevy/GMC GMT-900's came out and they are indeed the best quality truck money can buy on the market. Did GM, engineer bad vehicles ??? Sure !!! However the quality gap for all the new launches Malibu, Aura, Tahoe, Silverado, Lucerne, CTS, just to name a couple meet or exceed the competition !!!! I agree with Bob, that GM has some skeletons but which car company doesn't ???? Bob, acts like all these damn honyota's are flawless and imidazol97, myself, lemko, dallasdude1, 1487, readreader, cooter, and many others over the past 3 or 4 years have posted several links related to the quality issues of the Japanese and European automobiles.
Those same lazy, worthless, alcholic, druggies, no-good, UAW members that Bob, hates also assemble well engineered automobiles like some of the ones I mentioned above and receive rave reviews. My point has been proven over and over again that if you give union people something well engineered to build then the final result will be what you expect !!!! However some people hate unions and their members so bad they will still bash them anyways despite the over achieving results !!!! :sick:
>"..... but it's those pesky UAW, folks are putting half-assembled cars together now according to you. I, my family, friends, have owned several automobiles in our lifetime and I'm yet to hear about any of my relatives, friends, buying new automobiles with missing parts !!! "
In '87, when my wife graduated nursing school, we purchased a new Chevy Astro Van and Olds Cutlass Calais.
Upon delivery the Astro had a faulty fan clutch that kept the fan totally engaged constantly. It also tended to nose dive when shifting from a lower to a higher gear. Fan clutch was replaced within a week, but it took a while to get the nose dive "Fixed". After several trips to the dealer, and GM Tech involvement, someone suggested that I go to a particular dealer and ask for a particular tech. He "fixed" the problem! But the vehicle was now "Out of Specs", according to him. Never had any more problems with the nose diving. However a continuous series of other problems drove us to trade it in 90 for a new Mazda MPV which worked perfectly from day one.
Driving home Day One in the 87 Calais revealed a vibration that resulted because the brace from the fender to the radiator/hood support was missing the two bolts which would have fastened it to that front support. There was also no holes or welded nuts in place for the bolts to be attached too. Sensor problems resulting in blowing dark smoke and virtually no power were "fixed but re appeared, sagging driver seat from my 125# wife driving 25 mile RT to work, pealing paint, engine occasionally dyeing after LH turns if the fuel got below 1/4 tank, and tinny sound when doors closed were never resolved. Then the timing gears shedding their teeth and the tranny needing to be replaced before reaching the 75K mark sealed the deal for us to get rig of that JUNKER. Replaced it with a 95 Maxima that was trouble free.
Even then I didn't learn. Bought a new 96 Ram that gave so much trouble that the dealer offered a deal I couldn't refuse on a "New and Improved" 98 Ram. After the 2nd steering column, and needing the intake manifold gasket replaced, ( common problem according to the dealer) and a vibration at highway speeds of 50 or better, ( they even replaced the tires) , we traded it for a 93 Pilot that has been great. There were a few recalls on the Pilot that were done during normal routine service visits. Transparent to me. Also, At 22K the EGR valve went bad, was replaced and no more problems there.
I'm just not willing to invest in the Big 3 anymore, until they have a proven track record of other than junk. And I may not live that long. However I'm still hanging onto the 78 Chevy G20 Van. Of course there is a pan under it to catch the oil leaks from the valve covers and rear main, and transmission leaks. (Chevy V8 trade marks for many years). We "Need" a large van occasionally, but Big 3 are just not in the picture and Asians don't import one here.
>The GMT-800's were IMHO junk as far as body and interior went. I owned a 2000 Z-71 Chevy
Friends of ours recently bought a Honda CRv. He's had all kinds of brands but this is his first foreign jobbie. When she stopped by last week, we were outside and she said take a look at it. I opened the door and hopped in. The armrest felt like posterboard thick plastic. The seats were like lawn chairs. That reminded me of my visit last year to the Honda deal with the cheap Accord interior and the Civic's actually felt better.
Is Honda using union workers now to assemble them here in the states? Why is their product so "minimal"?
It's nice to criticize this product or that product, but let's be real about the offerings from the volume producers. I can recall when econoboxes is what they were and I don't see difference in the samples I've sat in.
>" Did the UAW ever strike a plant that was building poor quality cars like the Pinto? Did the UAW ever say we are proud and do not want to put the UNION Label on this kind of crap cars? If not they have to accept at least part of the responsibility."
>"When she stopped by last week, we were outside and she said take a look at it. I opened the door and hopped in. The armrest felt like posterboard thick plastic. The seats were like lawn chairs. That reminded me of my visit last year to the Honda deal with the cheap Accord interior and the Civic's actually felt better.
Is Honda using union workers now to assemble them here in the states? Why is their product so "minimal"?
Compare the resale values of CR-V models and the big 3 offerings.
Quality does not necessarily equate to "Plush".
For the same money, I choose the quality, that holds up, over the plush that won't hold up over time. For plush and quality, it seems that obscene amounts of money come into play. :sick:
Compare the GM and Ford competition (Vue, Equinox and Escape) to the CR-V. While the Escape and Vue do have their merits (especially with exterior styling - the new Vue, in particular, is very attractive), I'm not seeing how those vehicles are more "plush" than a CR-V.
The Equinox interior, in particular, is a sea of cheap, hard plastic and poor fit-and-finish.
(Note: after reading about 7-10 comments, I begin to lose track of who wrote what and sometimes who said what, so if I address responses wrongly, don't jump me too bad, and if I simply forget to respond to one, it means I just forgot with all of you making decent points to ponder...that applies, BTW, all the time, not just today)
I have always advocated that health insurance should only cover catastrophic illness and not routine office visits...deductibles like $2,000 always make sense, as we, meaning EVERYBODY should factor in routine health care as an expense of living...I have always been amazed at folks who cannot afford the $100 office visit to the Doc, but then buy a $1,000 stereo on credit or take the family to Disney ($5,000.00 vacation) and then howl because 3 family members go to the Doc for 3-$100 office visits...covering office visits only raises the premiums...plus, if every Doc knew that most office visits were cash, the overriding cost of routine visits might drop...to whine that OV's and blood tests are not covered is silly...when folks say they can't afford to pay $1,000-2,000 yearly, look and see what they have bought otherwise in the last year...i-phones, DVD recorders, i-pods, X-boxes, lots of unneeded junk, but that is where the priority lies...as soon as one mentions "health care" the first thought of EVERYBODY is..."who pays for this, other than me, of course???"
ROCKY: (kipk quote) "Driving home Day One in the 87 Calais revealed a vibration that resulted because the brace from the fender to the radiator/hood support was missing the two bolts which would have fastened it to that front support. There was also no holes or welded nuts in place for the bolts to be attached too'...if you can't see that is what has been pushing folks away, then you are smoking something that probably isn't legal...and kipk's memory goes back to 1987, 20 years ago...what you fail to comprehend, or simply incapable of comprehending, is that many folks out there have been burned on Big 3 products REPEATEDLY over the years, and, while imports have had their defects, apparently fewer defects than those burned by the Big 3...the number of pro-Big 3 posters simply fails to acknowledge that the market is not responding to those of us posting here, they are responding on their own experiences, and it seems, from the numbers, that when you watch imports grow and Big 3 shrink, the ONLY conclusion is that buyers are deserting Big 3 cars in droves, and it isn't because they don't like Big 3 car colors...they are deserting because of junk like kipk's Calais that had bolts missing and no holes drilled for supports...why didn't ONE UAW member take the time to stop and say, "hey, this car will rattle and shake from Day One"...so what did they do???...they SOLD that car to kipk, and probably thousands like it to others...sorry, rocky, your good vehicles simply do not make up for the junk that was sold, and, like it or not, people have long memories...maybe Japanese was junk in the 70s, but they cleaned up their act in the 80s and 90s, but we didn't...
All of your rah-rah ain't stopping the closing of plants, and the plants are closing because Americans do not believe that Big 3 iron is good enough...if Honda and Toy were closing plants, my comments would make no sense, but Honda is growing, Toy is growing, Hyundai is growing...so, is the auto market shrinking or is the Big 3 market shrinking???...sadly, as I want Big 3 to do well, but the market is speaking even loudly enough for YOU to hear, and that is that American cars combined with union labor simply do not carry the "mark of Excellence" anymore and it has been too many years since they did...
And all the UAW can do is strike...great strategy when people are finally seeing Malibu and others as regaining some semblance of quality, they try and shut down GM...now you know why I seriously question the average intelligence of the average UAW worker...
Anyone I forgot, slam me again and I will remember you...:):):):):)
>i-phones, DVD recorders, i-pods, X-boxes, lots of unneeded junk, but that is where the priority lies...as soon as one mentions "health care" the first thought of EVERYBODY is..."who pays for this, other than me, of course???"
Amen Bro.
Just check the fancy gym shoes too. And the $1500 rims on the car (each) with the ????$ rubber band tires. And the attitude is I can't pay for any thing. To quote an Ohio (a dying state according to Forbes, just like my friend's Michigan) representative in a phone conversation he couldn't figure out why he shouldn't have to pay for anything now that he had turned 65 the week before. But most of his constituents who were older wanted everything paid for by OPM (other people's money).
Currently watch the advertisement for the powered carts for disabled people to ride on at home which says "I didn't have to pay anything for it." more or less. Someone else paid (overpaid) for the mobility cart or the electric chair for arthritic people to get easier.
I was watching a program (CNBC or MSNBC) about one week in the life of American Airlines and the mechanics are union along with most of their folk. The management had taken $100,000,000 in bonus after the year. The workers had taken paycuts. Does Bob fly on a union airline? The workers were doing things to cut costs. But management deserves overpayment and bonuses.
> but they cleaned up their act in the 80s and 90s, but we didn't...
And started downhill in 2003 approx. Do we want to start going through the old posts about problems with the highly popular Accords and Camrys? We have talked before about how forgiving people are when their product fails. Bob suggested it is because they were highly satisfied otherwise and it would take repeated flaws for people to switch brands, and to even, hopefully, look at US brands.
Having unions being paid for working isn't the problem. It's that some were overpaid for the work they were doing. I have no doubt the IUE/CWA at Moraine truck plant are working at 100%. Same for the mechanics at AA.
When other companies have new, young workers who don't require much in the way of health care costs. When other companies have no retirement folks to whom they promised healthcare, retirement pay, and other benefits. When other companies are using more and more part time workers to avoid future retirees costs (Georgetown, e.g.). When other countries subsidize their automakers and other manufacture's costs because they have socialized medicine...
dallasdude: With a national health program for America, not only would GM improve its competitiveness by some $1,500 per car, but our nation would also be made stronger by replacing the inefficiencies and greed of the massive corporate structure (insurance giants, HMOs, drug peddlers, etc.) separating us patients from our doctors.
As for the first point, there is a big problem. Any nationalized health program would not be nearly as generous as the one GM workers and retirees currently enjoy. The country cannot afford it (even the European plans aren't nearly as generous).
Thus, I'm sure that the UAW would demand that the automakers still provide coverage to make up the difference between the health care coverage that UAW members and retirees currently enjoy, and what the nationalized plan would provide. So there would still a cost disadvantage - it just won't be $1,500.
And as for the "greed" that is supposedly "separating people from doctors" - under this nationalized health plan, will people be able to visit their doctor whenever they want to, receive every type of care they want, and still have someone else pick up the tab? If you think that will improve efficiency and save money, you've got to be kidding. Any plan needs to have some sort of gatekeeper to control costs - the insurance company, HMO or government.
The simple fact is that the government is already involved in the health care field through Medicare and Medicaid. The idea that the health care market represents a "free market" is a fiction. And costs are escalating wildly for those government programs, and the government is trying to contain costs by "screening" patients for care and capping the reimbursements for doctors and hospitals.
Reputable surveys show that Toyota and Honda are still tops for reliability, although, among the domestics, Ford is making real gains relative to other companies, and is thus moving up in the rankings. Chrysler not so much, and GM is a mixed bag, with several models showing difficult launches.
imidazol97: Do we want to start going through the old posts about problems with the highly popular Accords and Camrys?
As has been explained before, these message boards are a poor way to compare the reliability of various makes, given that Toyota and Honda owners are far more likely to post on sites such as this, while domestic car owners tend to be older, less educated and less affluent, and thus are less likely to use the internet.
Plus, the domestics sell a hefty percentage of their vehicles to rental car companies, and I seriously doubt that the managers of Hertz, Avis and Alamo have the time to post on this site with their complaints about the LaCrosses or G6s in the company fleet.
Does Bob fly on a union airline???...the answer is no, but simply because I refuse to fly anymore, not because of unions...between being herded like cattle, treated almost like a terrorist, seated in a cramped seat, possibly left on the tarmac for hours (altho it hasn't happened to me yet), I simply refuse to fly...I have already put friends and family on notice...if it isn't within a 6 hour drive of where I live, you will NOT see me...that includes weddings, funerals, bar mitzvahs, sweet sixteens, sour 65s, confirmations, kindergarten graduations, high school graduations, college graduations, graduate school graduations, PhD graduations, valedictorian speeches, Presidential visits (Repub or Democrat), and visits by the Pope...
If I can't drive there in one half day in my (union-made) Ford, I ain't goin'.........
Any nationalized health program would not be nearly as generous as the one GM workers and retirees currently enjoy. The country cannot afford it (even the European plans aren't nearly as generous).
It is not tough to find out just how poor socialized medicine is in countries like Canada and the UK. Long, long waits for any kind of surgery. Many times no treatment if you are obese or a smoker.
A man with a broken ankle is facing a lifetime of pain because a Health Service hospital has refused to treat him unless he gives up smoking.
John Nuttall, 57, needs surgery to set the ankle which he broke in three places two years ago because it did not mend naturally with a plaster cast.
Doctors at the Royal Cornwall Hospital in Truro have refused to operate because they say his heavy smoking would reduce the chance of healing, and there is a risk of complications which could lead to amputation.
What would the UAW say if they put a member that is a smoker on a National health care plan and was refused treatment because he smokes? I am assuming that smoking is legal still. Or could they refuse medical care because a blood test indicates you had a piece of Popeye's chicken a week ago. Don't give me that would never happen in the USA. LA is currently blocking any fast food restaurants being built for parts of the city where people are over weight.
Both Hillary and Obama are advocating health care plans that would be MANDATORY. Where your wages would be garnished if you do not pay the premiums. Just say "NO" to anymore socialized medicine.
Don't forget, I may rail against the UAW, and try my best to pull rocky's head out of the Michigan sand, but I have only bought, since 1998, Buick (Regal), Mercury (Sable), Dodge (Intrepid), Ford (Crown Vic) and Dodge (Ram 1500)...I rail against them because what I say is absolutely true, and I believe they are the reason for the downfall (or at least the shrinking) of the Big 3...too many folks have purchased vehicle with poor workmanship/quality and they have deserted the Big 3 like a botulism sandwich...when the average buyer, who probably cannot tell a Ford Flex from a Dodge Ram, wants to buy a Hon/Toy because they have been burned in the past by Big 3, it isn't the UAW they INTENTIONALLY avoid, it is what they believe is an American Automaker they avoid, and they avoid the UAW by inference, not directly...heck, most folks probably wouldn't know what UAW stood for and who they work for, but they know they have been burned by junk and THAT is all the reason they need to buy a Honda...
I think there's more to the Nuttall story than we know. The guy refused surgery when he broke his ankle in the first place - scared of getting MRSA. Then an outfit offered to pay for his surgery and he refused the donation. The docs say that a heavy smoker like Nuttall supposedly is runs a higher risk of complications, including amputation. So they want him to quit for 4 weeks before doing the surgery.
Meanwhile he's on morphine for pain and some think he may be getting job benefits for not being to work. Then there's that whole business about making a medical judgment based on the facts before you. Makes you go hmmm. Telegraph link
We'll know soon enough how the UAW plan will work when they take over responsibility for the health care benefits of their Big 3 retirees. That happens in 2010, and that's just around the corner. The UAW will become one of the biggest health care consumers in the US at that point. Medical News Today.
We'll know soon enough how the UAW plan will work when they take over responsibility for the health care benefits of their Big 3 retirees.
I wish them all the luck. They will need it. The Alaska Teamster's have gone back and forth being self funded to an outside HMO. They are back doing it themselves. That does not help the retired Teamsters as they lost all health care benefits a long time ago. I am not sure how the UAW thinks they will be able to provide for 540,000 older retired people with a shrinking base of workers to draw from. I still don't understand why they are covered with Medicare available.
As for Nuttall and his smoking. My contention is a Private HMO can refuse to insure a fat smoking drunk and it should be perfectly legal, as well as good business practice. When the government taxes you and forces into their form of health care it should cover ALL the citizens for any illness. Canada and the UK are taking the money and NOT doing what they promise. If you can opt out of the government health care plan and NONE of your tax dollars be spent on the plan, that would be different. As long as you are told you will not be covered if you choose to stuff yourself on Pizza and beer while smoking a carton of Camels, you can save those tax dollars to pay for your own health problems. I would just as soon not have to take care of those people.
Another question. Where are all the supposedly strong Unions in Canada and the UK when the government is refusing to treat people?
The fat, drunken smoker is insured. What we don't know is why the docs won't operate. Are they saving money, forcing a lifestyle choice on him or maybe there's a medical reason that weighs against it?
But I digress - the other thing that may happen, especially after 2010, is that the UAW will figure out that they can't run their benefit program and stay afloat, and will lobby the feds to take over their pot of money (and everyone else's) and provide universal health coverage. I bet the Big 3 would join in those efforts.
>"For plush and quality, it seems that obscene amounts of money come into play. Not necessarily. My Cadillac DTS Performance is reasonably priced for all the luxury and features I get. "
I believe you will find there is a fair amount of difference between the cost of a Caddy DTS and a Honda CR-V.
Comparing comparably priced SUVs, the CR-V does incredibly well in the longevity and resale departments. People that understand the reliability of Honda, Toyota and Nissan have no problems buying one with 100K Plus, if it has been taken care of. Buying a B3 with 100k is taking a big chance.
In the scheme of things the Cadillac DTS is a relatively new offering. It will be a while before the metal has a chance to prove itself. Hopefully it will hold up well. However, most folks simply can't afford and therefore don't purchase Cadillacs.
I would think that, because of the price, Cadillacs may use upgraded parts and pieces, beyond those used in other GM products. Especially those in the $17K-$25K range.
I think you'll be surprised at how close in price the 2 can come. Checking Herb Chambers, a dealer network up here that sells everything, They list DTS' from around $42K up to $56K. But the base models that list for $42K can be had for $32,995, and leased for $399/mo. The CR-V lists between $21K for a FWD to close to $30K for a 4x4. Nowhere do they advertise any discounts, just a 36 mo lease for $199/ mo w/ $2500 down.
All of your rah-rah ain't stopping the closing of plants, and the plants are closing because Americans do not believe that Big 3 iron is good enough...if Honda and Toy were closing plants, my comments would make no sense, but Honda is growing, Toy is growing, Hyundai is growing...so, is the auto market shrinking or is the Big 3 market shrinking???...sadly, as I want Big 3 to do well, but the market is speaking even loudly enough for YOU to hear, and that is that American cars combined with union labor simply do not carry the "mark of Excellence" anymore and it has been too many years since they did...
And all the UAW can do is strike...great strategy when people are finally seeing Malibu and others as regaining some semblance of quality, they try and shut down GM...now you know why I seriously question the average intelligence of the average UAW worker...
Anyone I forgot, slam me again and I will remember you...
Well marsha7 aka Bob, I'll put it to you like this.........I remember the 1980's pretty well especially the mid 80's and on.....I was exposed to a lot more "adult" point of views than your average 2nd or 3rd grader and could comprehend strikes, unions, politics, jobs, because when it became a regular part of your life and your parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, actually took the time and attempted to explain what this stuff meant and didn't ignore me like obviously some of ya'lls parents did at that age I can only assume my comprehension of world events was a lot more advanced than ya'lls. Remember I grew up in the information age in a large city with lots of industry, unions, and my grandmother just plain exposed me to a lot as a child. I understand some of ya'll didn't grow-up and see the real world until you were almost adults and lived a sheltered life and was oblivious to the world around you because of state geography. Hell some of ya'll in the south I'm sure called your restroom a wooden shack outside until 20 or 30 years ago !! I'm literally being serious !!! My point is the industrial midwest "rust belt" as many call us has always been more advanced than the south. They farmed in the south and built stuff in the north. That was the way it was.....I'm not saying farmers in the south are dumb people and are important to our society but in many cases they live and still live a sheltered life as I can speak first hand as one who lived and traveled in the south.
Marsha7, if you haven't noticed I will fill you in !!!!! Automobile sales are expected to be at or near record low this year. Somewhere around 14-14.5 million units. Toyota, has temporary shut down a few plants, honda has dropped it's sales projection a few times this year and you know damn well about the big 3 struggles. If our economy and Mises, way of thinking is so wonderful then please explain why tens of millions of americans have lost their jobs with unfree trade and the Bush, economic doctrine ??? You can rah rah rah, about cars from 20 years ago and LEMKO, will remind you (since I'm to young to remember....I do lemko, but shhhh !!! ) that those wonderful 70's and 80's camcords would turn to powder after a couple winters. I've driven and unfortunately had to ride in a few of those cars in my youth as some of my friends parents gave their rusted-out POS's to their kids. Those cars looked like Bo Jackson, was throwing baseballs through the sides of em' with all the brown colored holes. You consistently blame the union worker and give the Engineer and people like Mr. Beancounter aka Roger Smith, a free pass ???? :confuse: I'm not out to slam you Marsha7, but boy you do slam my UAW family members pretty bad on a regular basis.
I will finish by saying if union labor is just so awful then why do all these union shops win quality awards from various independent sources like JD Power ??? My father for instance took great pride in building car parts i.e. fuel injectors and valve lifters but because somebody on here got burned by parts that might not be even union made and did the person look at the root cause of that failed part ??? Perhaps it was a engineering failure ??? As I said before..... I don't know of anybody who has ever purchased a new car in my lifetime with missing parts but I suppose it is possible and shame on the people if guilty who let it go down the line. The problem is people hate unions because they often get paid more than the non-union worker thus their has always been jealousy and "story's". So instead of trying to organize their shop, which takes courage, risk, etc, they'd rather piss and moan and run with second hand story's and bring their fellow blue collar man down instead of trying to fight togeather for a common cause. I think it's as simple as that based on all the rhetoric my so-called young ears have heard over the years from non-union workers.
Don't you worry because you will probably get your wish.... If McCain, wins GM, cars will be built in China, and imported to the U.S. just like every other thing else. I guess you could say buy a Honda or Kia right ??? Well their won't be any jobs outside of McJobs or Walley World types for us regular slobs, to afford such a luxury. Need a Engineer, call up India !!! Need a Car, call up Brickland, Geely, Chery, or the Big China 3 as all HQ will move from Detroit to Beijing !!!! :sick: Ohhhhh I forgot Need a Job, right ??? Well if this continues you won't have to worry because the only cars ya'll will be driving is your Masters CHIN-E Class chauffering him around on U.S. interstates the Chinese, purchased under the Bush, administration !!!! :surprise:
DETROIT - The United Auto Workers union has given its expected endorsement to Democrat Barack Obama, while criticizing Republican John McCain as an heir to President Bush's policies.
UAW President Ron Gettelfinger says McCain "is content to rely on the failed policies of President Bush," which Gettelfinger says cost millions of U.S. manufacturing jobs.
Michigan Democrats picked Gettelfinger in June as an Obama delegate to the party's national convention, which begins next Monday in Denver.
Gettelfinger issued a statement Monday saying Obama "is taking action to support American workers and American companies."
Gettelfinger cites Obama's promise of $4 billion in low-cost financing for automakers to retool to make more fuel-efficient vehicles.
" So instead of trying to organize their shop, which takes courage, risk, etc, they'd rather piss and moan and run with second hand story's and bring their fellow blue collar man down instead of trying to fight togeather for a common cause."
I would have to agree with this statement. There are FAR too many people in this country who are afraid to stand up for themselves in the workplace, and end up bitter about their position, and resentful of others who do stand up for themselves (unions and individuals alike).
For the sake of argument let's say your law office said they were closing shop ( I do assume you have your own practice and not work for somebody, but for sake of argument) in Atlanta and moving to Savannah, to be closer to a big client. You could take this lying down and move, but how would you feel? Or, you could stand up to your boss and ask how this makes sense, offer up an alternative, just ask questions. This way, whether you quit and look for work in Atlanta, or move with them across state, at least you feel as though you made an informed decision, and do so knowing that you at least made your best pitch for how you feel.
>a dealer network up here that sells everything,... >Nowhere do they advertise any discounts,
Honda is the magic act of seldom showing discounts. They give the discounts to the dealer (dealer incentives), who can then decide if and how much they pass on to the consumer. That's unlike the past typical practice of announcing the discount amounts by many brands to encourage buying.
I recall in 2003 and around then when the Honda and Toyota folks on Edmunds would bristle at the idea that they had to give rebates because their cars were so in demand that they didn't need rebates. It wasn't long after that the rebates started appearing!!!
But the Honda folks tended to have "dealer incentives" so that the unknowing consumer could be plucked for the cash when the dealer didn't actually discount whatever the incentive amount to them was along with, in this area, horrific addons and packs to pluck the consumer feathers further.
The use of "hidden incentives" furthered the consumer illusion that they never were discounted. It's a parallel to the hidden repairs done in the 80s and 90s so that consumers didn't know there were actually, gasp, flaws that got repaired on the foreign car just like on American branded cars.
Rock, I'm really enjoying my high-quality UNION MADE Cadillac DTS. They just keep getting better and better. The quality materials in my car are top-notch, the fit and finish is excellent, and the ride and performance are awesome. The car feels solid as if it were machined from one huge billet of steel. This is the kind of car UAW workers can build when they are provided with the proper materials and engineering.
.I remember the 1980's pretty well especially the mid 80's and on.....I was exposed to a lot more "adult" point of views than your average 2nd or 3rd grader and could comprehend strikes, unions, politics, jobs, because when it became a regular part of your life and your parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, actually took the time and attempted to explain what this stuff meant and didn't ignore me like obviously some of ya'lls parents did at that age I can only assume my comprehension of world events was a lot more advanced than ya'lls. Remember I grew up in the information age in a large city with lots of industry, unions, and my grandmother just plain exposed me to a lot as a child. I understand some of ya'll didn't grow-up and see the real world until you were almost adults and lived a sheltered life and was oblivious to the world around you because of state geography.
What!!!! You were on the internet in the 80's. Hmm, you must have been hanging out with your buddy Al Gore for that to be possible as I remember being in a college computer lab in '91 using Mosaic and their were about 100 internet sites to visit.
All of this enlightenment at an early age, and no one saw the writing on the wall!!!! It has been obvious for 30 years that the domestic auto industry has been in trouble. I grew up near the steel mills in NW Indiana. My grandpa worked as a union steel worker for 43 years, my FIL worked as an iron worker for 33 years until LTV went belly up and he elected to retire. My grandpa and parents as did my wife's parents always talked to us about getting an education and getting the hell out of town for a better life. They sacrificed to provide us and our siblings an opportunity for higher education for the possibility for a better life. They didn't fill my head with the BS that "the mill and union is good enough for me, it will be good enough for you".
Sounds like your's wanted you to stick around and feel the pain.
Rock, I'm really enjoying my high-quality UNION MADE Cadillac DTS. They just keep getting better and better. The quality materials in my car are top-notch, the fit and finish is excellent, and the ride and performance are awesome. The car feels solid as if it were machined from one huge billet of steel. This is the kind of car UAW workers can build when they are provided with the proper materials and engineering.
Glad to hear you like it. Not my kind of car, but they do have a presence on the road. I enjoy my UAW made Expedition. Far better fit and finish than the Mexican made Suburban's I looked at. Although it's not perfect and has developed an annoying habit of not downshifting to 1st gear until it is completely stopped for like 15 seconds. So it is at the Ford dealer getting looked at.
I was exposed to a lot more "adult" point of views than your average 2nd or 3rd grader and could comprehend strikes, unions, politics, jobs, because when it became a regular part of your life and your parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, actually took the time and attempted to explain what this stuff meant
It is quite obvious you got a VERY lopsided picture of life in America.
My point is the industrial midwest "rust belt" as many call us has always been more advanced than the south. They farmed in the south and built stuff in the north. That was the way it was.....I'm not saying farmers in the south are dumb people and are important to our society but in many cases they live and still live a sheltered life as I can speak first hand as one who lived and traveled in the south.
This statement shows quite clearly your lack of education regarding the history of the United States. Thomas Jefferson our second President warned US not to get involved in just the kind of industry that dominates the Midwest and especially Michigan. His ideal agrarian society was meant to avoid the very problems we are seeing today in places like Michigan. Jefferson felt that big cities and industry that you seem so enamored with would lead to a welfare state with many people out of work crippled and a drudge on society as a whole. We should have listened to Jefferson. Kind of late now as we are stuck with a lot of worn out old auto workers and very few people to support them. It will require more and more taxation of the middle class to keep the baby boomers fed and sheltered. The Rich are going to remain rich. The very industries you feel are so advanced bred the very rich you abhor.
explain why tens of millions of americans have lost their jobs with unfree trade and the Bush, economic doctrine ???
Again it is sad that you have such a narrow view of America and what has been lost. In the 1960s we built all the TVs in the USA. By the late 1970s they were all coming from Japan. Where was your UAW support then? Did they refuse to buy a TV or stereo that was not UNION MADE IN THE USA? Next we lost small appliances, large appliances, lumber & plywood. Long before NAFTA we allowed lumber imports from Canada that were subsidized by the Canadian government. Did the UAW refuse to own a home built with Canadian lumber and Japanese plywood? You should really read more about the past and less about what you hear from such a narrow UAW perspective. This country has slowly given up on industry over the last 50 years. It just took longer to reach your family. Now it is their turn to lose and become wards of the state. Just as Jefferson warned US of 200 years ago.
My grandpa and parents as did my wife's parents always talked to us about getting an education and getting the hell out of town for a better life. They sacrificed to provide us and our siblings an opportunity for higher education for the possibility for a better life. They didn't fill my head with the BS that "the mill and union is good enough for me, it will be good enough for you".
Sounds like your's wanted you to stick around and feel the pain.
From where I am sitting your family could see where the country was going and did not stick their heads in the sand and wait for the messiah to save them. It was not rocket science to see where heavy industry was headed 30 years ago. To hang on with the hopes of a new industrial age was just foolish. Sadly we have politicians that still promise what will NEVER happen. No automaker in their right mind will build where there is such a repressive labor market.
UAW parents should have insisted on their children getting a college education when the big bucks were flowing. That is a much better legacy than lamenting how it used to be.
The car feels solid as if it were machined from one huge billet of steel.
So it will knock your fillings out every time you hit a bump in the road? :P
My dad's UAW-built '98 S-10 seems to be holding up just fine after a decade, although he only drives it maybe 100 miles a month. The lack of consistency is what did more damage to the domestics' (and the UAW's) reputation than anything else IMO. The average buyer has no way of knowing if her car was assembled by the good UAW workers who still care, or the featherbedding layabouts with a few too many Stroh's in their belly. :sick:
Comments
If the govt had taxed gas, the race to innovate would have begun sooner. However, the market forces which have caused fuel to rise will do the same thing. How soon is the only question on the next generation of transportation evolution.
The only other thing which concerns me is the health cost concern. The Toyota/Honda employees enjoy a national health benefit, which the Big Three must factor into the cost of a car. The rising cost of health care makes this significant. So one could look at that advantage as a govt subsidy from Japan to their auto industry. The American govt needs to address this issue if we are to level the playing field or allow the UAW worker the same opportunity. It should be noted that for years now the govt of Japan has also protected their agriculture and kept the cost beef extremely high to the consumer in Japan. American farmers have been locked out of the market in Japan to protect these special people in an inefficient manner.
I would probably say that was the best post I've ever read on edmunds !!! :shades:
"The Rock"
Where are those so-called good jobs ??? My cousin Lisa, just graduated as a x-ray tech from Grand Valley, over a month ago and still can't find a job in her field.
-Rocky
dallas: "Why are all this countries woes blamed on the UAW?"...I do NOT blame all this country's woes on the UAW...but the UAW does make a good poster boy (girl?) for the fact that floorsweepers are not worth the hourly rate they are paid, as there is no more unskilled labor than a floorsweeper...but they make far above the minimum wage, when the job is hardly worth was the minimum wage was back in 1980...so the UAW stands as an example of the reason why manufacturing has been shipped overseas, where the floorsweeper is paid $2-3 per hour, approximately what it is worth...
The UAW is part of an industry that did, at one time, involve 1 in every 6 jobs in America, plus the UAW has been the most militant and VOCAL, striking to keep floorsweepers earning what they do, and striking to keep lousy drunk workers (not all of them, but the ones who ARE lousy and drunk) on the line...like it or not, it was management with poor designs and UAW labor forgetting door screws and leaving out other parts that simply drove (no pun intended) Americans away from their product...
When you avoid a product because it looks lousy, blame management for poor design...
But when you buy the product, find out parts are missing or things simply do not work (windows out of channels, parts mounted crooked, etc.) and you have now lost your financial a** on a piece of junk, you will blame the people who MADE the car...and you may avoid Big 3 cars altogether, because the same lackeys who made the Ford also make GM and Chrysler...
I would bet that more people left Big 3 due to quality problems which are LABOR problems, whereas if it was poor design problems, i.e. management, you never saw them buy the product anyway, they just left the dealer and drove to Honda outright...
My mother OTOH ordered a brand new 99' Tahoe Sport that was made in Mexico, that had a large torn leather seat and you want to talk about quality control ??? I guess since it was made in Mexico, you can't spill your hate on those lazy, no-good, drunk, UAW workers !!!! :sick:
-Rocky
Chevrolet
Pontiac
Cadillac
GMC
Hummer, will be sold. Buick, will go down the same way as Oldsmobile. Saturn, could either be sold or decommissioned. Saab, is still unknown but I read likely to be sold !!! Anyone else read anything similar in their papers oh a week or so ago ???
"The Rock"
Not for all the Toyota and Honda workers in the USA. I think about half the Toyota vehicles are now built in the USA. They have the same things to contend with as the Big 3. It is past contracts, retirees etc that are dragging the Big 3 down.
When I became a Teamster in 1971 we had 100% medical, dental, eye care and legal for LIFE. When I retired in 2006 the medical had big deductibles, dental was next to worthless and $100 every two years for eye care. Legal was gone. Retirees no longer covered unless you paid the $900 per month premium. Our plan was Alaska Teamster self supporting. It was the members that ran it into the ground. They would go in for a cold or an ingrown toenail. Free medical ends up a disaster. Make the co-pay high enough and people only use the plan when sick.
The UAW needs to realize they are in the 21st century.
What parts of the US has she applied? If she is in Michigan, we have already told you it is quickly becoming a retirement and vacation land. Though I would expect an X-Ray tech would be in demand in most large cities.
rocky: "I, my family, friends, have owned several automobiles in our lifetime and I'm yet to hear about any of my relatives, friends, buying new automobiles with missing parts "...once again, rocky, the Big 3 are not shrinking because of those of you who bought cars that were accidentally built correctly, but the waves of people who have deserted the Big 3 number in the millions over the last 20 years, and it is THEY who are the cause of the shrinking...
You really do not get it...it isn't the people who are happy with the product, it is the sheer numbers of people who have been (or feel they have been, as perception is THEIR reality) screwed by Big 3 junk...
For the many of you who would buy nothing but Big 3, I applaud you, but you stick your collective heads in the sand and say, "What quality problems?" when people with differing definitions of "quality" are going to imports in droves...
Raving about your vehicle is simply the opposite of chicken little...instead of seeing a quality problem that millions of others see (and, most importantly, take their money elsewhere) you jsyt think that since your car is good, that others will follow...they aren't...they are lost to the Big 3, maybe forever...certainly Big 3 will survive, thanks to loyalists like you...but they will be half their former size, or less, because of everybody else who did feel like they bought junk...so, while you wonder where everybody else has gone, simply opeing your eyes will tell you that the apparent image of quality that YOU see is not the image mainatined by everybody else...
And, think of all those folks who never even heard of the UAW or unions...they have still deserted the Big 3 for SOME REASON, and I would bet that exorbitant management pay isn't even on their radar screen, but the feel and quality of the vehicle is what they can see and put their hands on, and listen when the engine hums, and the thunk when the door closes...Big 3 simply do not have it, and all of your rah-rah will not bring it back, but a well made product just might...is a well made product, the envy of the world, even ON the UAW's radar screen, or simply a lower deductible for their Blue Cross???
When the UAW is down to one member, that person may have 100% medical coverage with zero deductible...the other 750,000 that are gone forever will pay cash until Medicare kicks in...but at least the union will have preserved the benefit, even if only for one member...and please have that member turn off the lights when the leave the factory...
Rocky you know Bob is right on this one. I was a big time HonToy basher and sold on GM until I bought that 2005 GMC PU. That was my 5th GM truck since 1988. It was the only one built by the UAW. Rest were Canada or Mexico. I had no issues other than a couple recalls over all those vehicles. My doors on the 05 GMC never fit right, even after 3 times at the dealer. That I blame on workmanship. The design and cheap tinny sheet metal I blame on Management. So the UAW and GM management ran me off. The other real issue is the Big 3 did not keep up with the times. The Big 3 management has the same mentality as the UAW. They felt they were ENTITLED to our loyalty as consumers. They banged out a lot of poorly designed small cars that were not in a league with the Japanese. Did the UAW ever strike a plant that was building poor quality cars like the Pinto? Did the UAW ever say we are proud and do not want to put the UNION Label on this kind of crap cars? If not they have to accept at least part of the responsibility.
PS
I would have traded my 05 GMC on an 07 Denali if the dealer did not try to rip me off on the trade. Their loss, I got what I wanted for the PU and a great deal on the superior (in most ways) Sequoia built in Indiana. I do wish it had the GMC stereo and climate control system. Hard finding a perfect vehicle these days.
Question: If quality control is NOT a bargained for issue (and I assume that this could be a slippery slope as to what the definition of quality is,and what the threshold of "sub-standard quality" is) then what leg would the UAW have to stand on to strike, and not risk getting fired over?
If you're planning that put in a maximum annual co-pay so you don't bankrupt people who have serious chronic problems while trying to nail the other folk.
I'm one of those folks with chronic stuff so I'm a little touchy on the subject.
So California is very weak on Unions. The general opinion is they are a drag on society. Here most of the Union construction work is gone. When my Dad and Uncles were in the Carpenters Union during the 1940s & 50s they had most of the projects. Not anymore. Small subs and with a lot of piece work. No benefits. More cash than the IRS would like. With the housing bubble burst there is little construction of any kind.
Once I hit 65 I have to take Medicare as primary and then my current insurance becomes the secondary policy. As long as things stay relatively stable this will be all right.
I've seen enough of the ER to last me forever.
Let''s just hope that will not continue. I have been there with my wife and I don't want to repeat it. My Medicare supplement with Kaiser is only $30 per month. I thought that was great. They do take $96 out of my Social Security. Better than the $263 I was paying before. I should go get a physical and see who my doctor will be.
I still do not understand why the Big 3 pay health care for retirees with Medicare. At least after they are 65. We all paid big bucks for that coverage over the years. Just because Uncle Sam has borrowed $3.5 TRILLION from Social Security does not mean it is gone. The Feds still owe it to those that have paid in. Those that have not paid in do not deserve anything. IMO.
I do ??? I agree your 2005 GMC pick-up wasn't as well built as it could of been. The GMT-800's were IMHO junk as far as body and interior went. I owned a 2000 Z-71 Chevy and saw a lot of room for improvement and then in 2007 the Chevy/GMC GMT-900's came out and they are indeed the best quality truck money can buy on the market. Did GM, engineer bad vehicles ??? Sure !!! However the quality gap for all the new launches Malibu, Aura, Tahoe, Silverado, Lucerne, CTS, just to name a couple meet or exceed the competition !!!!
Those same lazy, worthless, alcholic, druggies, no-good, UAW members that Bob, hates also assemble well engineered automobiles like some of the ones I mentioned above and receive rave reviews. My point has been proven over and over again that if you give union people something well engineered to build then the final result will be what you expect !!!! However some people hate unions and their members so bad they will still bash them anyways despite the over achieving results !!!! :sick:
-Rocky
In '87, when my wife graduated nursing school, we purchased a new Chevy Astro Van and Olds Cutlass Calais.
Upon delivery the Astro had a faulty fan clutch that kept the fan totally engaged constantly. It also tended to nose dive when shifting from a lower to a higher gear.
Fan clutch was replaced within a week, but it took a while to get the nose dive "Fixed". After several trips to the dealer, and GM Tech involvement, someone suggested that I go to a particular dealer and ask for a particular tech. He "fixed" the problem! But the vehicle was now "Out of Specs", according to him. Never had any more problems with the nose diving. However a continuous series of other problems drove us to trade it in 90 for a new Mazda MPV which worked perfectly from day one.
Driving home Day One in the 87 Calais revealed a vibration that resulted because the brace from the fender to the radiator/hood support was missing the two bolts which would have fastened it to that front support. There was also no holes or welded nuts in place for the bolts to be attached too. Sensor problems resulting in blowing dark smoke and virtually no power were "fixed but re appeared, sagging driver seat from my 125# wife driving 25 mile RT to work, pealing paint, engine occasionally dyeing after LH turns if the fuel got below 1/4 tank, and tinny sound when doors closed were never resolved. Then the timing gears shedding their teeth and the tranny needing to be replaced before reaching the 75K mark sealed the deal for us to get rig of that JUNKER. Replaced it with a 95 Maxima that was trouble free.
Even then I didn't learn. Bought a new 96 Ram that gave so much trouble that the dealer offered a deal I couldn't refuse on a "New and Improved" 98 Ram. After the 2nd steering column, and needing the intake manifold gasket replaced, ( common problem according to the dealer) and a vibration at highway speeds of 50 or better, ( they even replaced the tires) , we traded it for a 93 Pilot that has been great.
There were a few recalls on the Pilot that were done during normal routine service visits. Transparent to me. Also, At 22K the EGR valve went bad, was replaced and no more problems there.
I'm just not willing to invest in the Big 3 anymore, until they have a proven track record of other than junk. And I may not live that long. However I'm still hanging onto the 78 Chevy G20 Van. Of course there is a pan under it to catch the oil leaks from the valve covers and rear main, and transmission leaks. (Chevy V8 trade marks for many years). We "Need" a large van occasionally, but Big 3 are just not in the picture and Asians don't import one here.
Friends of ours recently bought a Honda CRv. He's had all kinds of brands but this is his first foreign jobbie. When she stopped by last week, we were outside and she said take a look at it. I opened the door and hopped in. The armrest felt like posterboard thick plastic. The seats were like lawn chairs. That reminded me of my visit last year to the Honda deal with the cheap Accord interior and the Civic's actually felt better.
Is Honda using union workers now to assemble them here in the states? Why is their product so "minimal"?
It's nice to criticize this product or that product, but let's be real about the offerings from the volume producers. I can recall when econoboxes is what they were and I don't see difference in the samples I've sat in.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Well said!
Kip
Is Honda using union workers now to assemble them here in the states? Why is their product so "minimal"?
Compare the resale values of CR-V models and the big 3 offerings.
Quality does not necessarily equate to "Plush".
For the same money, I choose the quality, that holds up, over the plush that won't hold up over time.
For plush and quality, it seems that obscene amounts of money come into play. :sick:
Kip
Not necessarily. My Cadillac DTS Performance is reasonably priced for all the luxury and features I get.
The Equinox interior, in particular, is a sea of cheap, hard plastic and poor fit-and-finish.
I have always advocated that health insurance should only cover catastrophic illness and not routine office visits...deductibles like $2,000 always make sense, as we, meaning EVERYBODY should factor in routine health care as an expense of living...I have always been amazed at folks who cannot afford the $100 office visit to the Doc, but then buy a $1,000 stereo on credit or take the family to Disney ($5,000.00 vacation) and then howl because 3 family members go to the Doc for 3-$100 office visits...covering office visits only raises the premiums...plus, if every Doc knew that most office visits were cash, the overriding cost of routine visits might drop...to whine that OV's and blood tests are not covered is silly...when folks say they can't afford to pay $1,000-2,000 yearly, look and see what they have bought otherwise in the last year...i-phones, DVD recorders, i-pods, X-boxes, lots of unneeded junk, but that is where the priority lies...as soon as one mentions "health care" the first thought of EVERYBODY is..."who pays for this, other than me, of course???"
ROCKY: (kipk quote) "Driving home Day One in the 87 Calais revealed a vibration that resulted because the brace from the fender to the radiator/hood support was missing the two bolts which would have fastened it to that front support. There was also no holes or welded nuts in place for the bolts to be attached too'...if you can't see that is what has been pushing folks away, then you are smoking something that probably isn't legal...and kipk's memory goes back to 1987, 20 years ago...what you fail to comprehend, or simply incapable of comprehending, is that many folks out there have been burned on Big 3 products REPEATEDLY over the years, and, while imports have had their defects, apparently fewer defects than those burned by the Big 3...the number of pro-Big 3 posters simply fails to acknowledge that the market is not responding to those of us posting here, they are responding on their own experiences, and it seems, from the numbers, that when you watch imports grow and Big 3 shrink, the ONLY conclusion is that buyers are deserting Big 3 cars in droves, and it isn't because they don't like Big 3 car colors...they are deserting because of junk like kipk's Calais that had bolts missing and no holes drilled for supports...why didn't ONE UAW member take the time to stop and say, "hey, this car will rattle and shake from Day One"...so what did they do???...they SOLD that car to kipk, and probably thousands like it to others...sorry, rocky, your good vehicles simply do not make up for the junk that was sold, and, like it or not, people have long memories...maybe Japanese was junk in the 70s, but they cleaned up their act in the 80s and 90s, but we didn't...
All of your rah-rah ain't stopping the closing of plants, and the plants are closing because Americans do not believe that Big 3 iron is good enough...if Honda and Toy were closing plants, my comments would make no sense, but Honda is growing, Toy is growing, Hyundai is growing...so, is the auto market shrinking or is the Big 3 market shrinking???...sadly, as I want Big 3 to do well, but the market is speaking even loudly enough for YOU to hear, and that is that American cars combined with union labor simply do not carry the "mark of Excellence" anymore and it has been too many years since they did...
And all the UAW can do is strike...great strategy when people are finally seeing Malibu and others as regaining some semblance of quality, they try and shut down GM...now you know why I seriously question the average intelligence of the average UAW worker...
Anyone I forgot, slam me again and I will remember you...:):):):):)
Amen Bro.
Just check the fancy gym shoes too. And the $1500 rims on the car (each) with the ????$ rubber band tires. And the attitude is I can't pay for any thing. To quote an Ohio (a dying state according to Forbes, just like my friend's Michigan) representative in a phone conversation he couldn't figure out why he shouldn't have to pay for anything now that he had turned 65 the week before. But most of his constituents who were older wanted everything paid for by OPM (other people's money).
Currently watch the advertisement for the powered carts for disabled people to ride on at home which says "I didn't have to pay anything for it." more or less. Someone else paid (overpaid) for the mobility cart or the electric chair for arthritic people to get easier.
I was watching a program (CNBC or MSNBC) about one week in the life of American Airlines and the mechanics are union along with most of their folk. The management had taken $100,000,000 in bonus after the year. The workers had taken paycuts. Does Bob fly on a union airline? The workers were doing things to cut costs. But management deserves overpayment and bonuses.
> but they cleaned up their act in the 80s and 90s, but we didn't...
And started downhill in 2003 approx. Do we want to start going through the old posts about problems with the highly popular Accords and Camrys? We have talked before about how forgiving people are when their product fails. Bob suggested it is because they were highly satisfied otherwise and it would take repeated flaws for people to switch brands, and to even, hopefully, look at US brands.
Having unions being paid for working isn't the problem. It's that some were overpaid for the work they were doing. I have no doubt the IUE/CWA at Moraine truck plant are working at 100%. Same for the mechanics at AA.
When other companies have new, young workers who don't require much in the way of health care costs. When other companies have no retirement folks to whom they promised healthcare, retirement pay, and other benefits. When other companies are using more and more part time workers to avoid future retirees costs (Georgetown, e.g.). When other countries subsidize their automakers and other manufacture's costs because they have socialized medicine...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
peddlers, etc.) separating us patients from our doctors.
As for the first point, there is a big problem. Any nationalized health program would not be nearly as generous as the one GM workers and retirees currently enjoy. The country cannot afford it (even the European plans aren't nearly as generous).
Thus, I'm sure that the UAW would demand that the automakers still provide coverage to make up the difference between the health care coverage that UAW members and retirees currently enjoy, and what the nationalized plan would provide. So there would still a cost disadvantage - it just won't be $1,500.
And as for the "greed" that is supposedly "separating people from doctors" - under this nationalized health plan, will people be able to visit their doctor whenever they want to, receive every type of care they want, and still have someone else pick up the tab? If you think that will improve efficiency and save money, you've got to be kidding. Any plan needs to have some sort of gatekeeper to control costs - the insurance company, HMO or government.
The simple fact is that the government is already involved in the health care field through Medicare and Medicaid. The idea that the health care market represents a "free market" is a fiction. And costs are escalating wildly for those government programs, and the government is trying to contain costs by "screening" patients for care and capping the reimbursements for doctors and hospitals.
Reputable surveys show that Toyota and Honda are still tops for reliability, although, among the domestics, Ford is making real gains relative to other companies, and is thus moving up in the rankings. Chrysler not so much, and GM is a mixed bag, with several models showing difficult launches.
imidazol97: Do we want to start going through the old posts about problems with the highly popular Accords and Camrys?
As has been explained before, these message boards are a poor way to compare the reliability of various makes, given that Toyota and Honda owners are far more likely to post on sites such as this, while domestic car owners tend to be older, less educated and less affluent, and thus are less likely to use the internet.
Plus, the domestics sell a hefty percentage of their vehicles to rental car companies, and I seriously doubt that the managers of Hertz, Avis and Alamo have the time to post on this site with their complaints about the LaCrosses or G6s in the company fleet.
If I can't drive there in one half day in my (union-made) Ford, I ain't goin'.........
It is not tough to find out just how poor socialized medicine is in countries like Canada and the UK. Long, long waits for any kind of surgery. Many times no treatment if you are obese or a smoker.
A man with a broken ankle is facing a lifetime of pain because a Health Service hospital has refused to treat him unless he gives up smoking.
John Nuttall, 57, needs surgery to set the ankle which he broke in three places two years ago because it did not mend naturally with a plaster cast.
Doctors at the Royal Cornwall Hospital in Truro have refused to operate because they say his heavy smoking would reduce the chance of healing, and there is a risk of complications which could lead to amputation.
What would the UAW say if they put a member that is a smoker on a National health care plan and was refused treatment because he smokes? I am assuming that smoking is legal still. Or could they refuse medical care because a blood test indicates you had a piece of Popeye's chicken a week ago. Don't give me that would never happen in the USA. LA is currently blocking any fast food restaurants being built for parts of the city where people are over weight.
Both Hillary and Obama are advocating health care plans that would be MANDATORY. Where your wages would be garnished if you do not pay the premiums. Just say "NO" to anymore socialized medicine.
I'm glad you added that. :shades: Really.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Meanwhile he's on morphine for pain and some think he may be getting job benefits for not being to work. Then there's that whole business about making a medical judgment based on the facts before you. Makes you go hmmm. Telegraph link
We'll know soon enough how the UAW plan will work when they take over responsibility for the health care benefits of their Big 3 retirees. That happens in 2010, and that's just around the corner. The UAW will become one of the biggest health care consumers in the US at that point.
Medical News Today.
I wish them all the luck. They will need it. The Alaska Teamster's have gone back and forth being self funded to an outside HMO. They are back doing it themselves. That does not help the retired Teamsters as they lost all health care benefits a long time ago. I am not sure how the UAW thinks they will be able to provide for 540,000 older retired people with a shrinking base of workers to draw from. I still don't understand why they are covered with Medicare available.
As for Nuttall and his smoking. My contention is a Private HMO can refuse to insure a fat smoking drunk and it should be perfectly legal, as well as good business practice. When the government taxes you and forces into their form of health care it should cover ALL the citizens for any illness. Canada and the UK are taking the money and NOT doing what they promise. If you can opt out of the government health care plan and NONE of your tax dollars be spent on the plan, that would be different. As long as you are told you will not be covered if you choose to stuff yourself on Pizza and beer while smoking a carton of Camels, you can save those tax dollars to pay for your own health problems. I would just as soon not have to take care of those people.
Another question. Where are all the supposedly strong Unions in Canada and the UK when the government is refusing to treat people?
But I digress - the other thing that may happen, especially after 2010, is that the UAW will figure out that they can't run their benefit program and stay afloat, and will lobby the feds to take over their pot of money (and everyone else's) and provide universal health coverage. I bet the Big 3 would join in those efforts.
Not necessarily. My Cadillac DTS Performance is reasonably priced for all the luxury and features I get. "
I believe you will find there is a fair amount of difference between the cost of a Caddy DTS and a Honda CR-V.
Comparing comparably priced SUVs, the CR-V does incredibly well in the longevity and resale departments. People that understand the reliability of Honda, Toyota and Nissan have no problems buying one with 100K Plus, if it has been taken care of. Buying a B3 with 100k is taking a big chance.
In the scheme of things the Cadillac DTS is a relatively new offering. It will be a while before the metal has a chance to prove itself. Hopefully it will hold up well.
However, most folks simply can't afford and therefore don't purchase Cadillacs.
I would think that, because of the price, Cadillacs may use upgraded parts and pieces, beyond those used in other GM products. Especially those in the $17K-$25K range.
Kip
And all the UAW can do is strike...great strategy when people are finally seeing Malibu and others as regaining some semblance of quality, they try and shut down GM...now you know why I seriously question the average intelligence of the average UAW worker...
Anyone I forgot, slam me again and I will remember you...
Well marsha7 aka Bob, I'll put it to you like this.........I remember the 1980's pretty well especially the mid 80's and on.....I was exposed to a lot more "adult" point of views than your average 2nd or 3rd grader and could comprehend strikes, unions, politics, jobs, because when it became a regular part of your life and your parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, actually took the time and attempted to explain what this stuff meant and didn't ignore me like obviously some of ya'lls parents did at that age I can only assume my comprehension of world events was a lot more advanced than ya'lls. Remember I grew up in the information age in a large city with lots of industry, unions, and my grandmother just plain exposed me to a lot as a child. I understand some of ya'll didn't grow-up and see the real world until you were almost adults and lived a sheltered life and was oblivious to the world around you because of state geography. Hell some of ya'll in the south I'm sure called your restroom a wooden shack outside until 20 or 30 years ago !! I'm literally being serious !!! My point is the industrial midwest "rust belt" as many call us has always been more advanced than the south. They farmed in the south and built stuff in the north. That was the way it was.....I'm not saying farmers in the south are dumb people and are important to our society but in many cases they live and still live a sheltered life as I can speak first hand as one who lived and traveled in the south.
Marsha7, if you haven't noticed I will fill you in !!!!! Automobile sales are expected to be at or near record low this year. Somewhere around 14-14.5 million units. Toyota, has temporary shut down a few plants, honda has dropped it's sales projection a few times this year and you know damn well about the big 3 struggles. If our economy and Mises, way of thinking is so wonderful then please explain why tens of millions of americans have lost their jobs with unfree trade and the Bush, economic doctrine ??? You can rah rah rah, about cars from 20 years ago and LEMKO, will remind you (since I'm to young to remember....I do lemko, but shhhh !!!
I will finish by saying if union labor is just so awful then why do all these union shops win quality awards from various independent sources like JD Power ???
My father for instance took great pride in building car parts i.e. fuel injectors and valve lifters but because somebody on here got burned by parts that might not be even union made and did the person look at the root cause of that failed part ??? Perhaps it was a engineering failure ??? As I said before..... I don't know of anybody who has ever purchased a new car in my lifetime with missing parts but I suppose it is possible and shame on the people if guilty who let it go down the line. The problem is people hate unions because they often get paid more than the non-union worker thus their has always been jealousy and "story's". So instead of trying to organize their shop, which takes courage, risk, etc, they'd rather piss and moan and run with second hand story's and bring their fellow blue collar man down instead of trying to fight togeather for a common cause. I think it's as simple as that based on all the rhetoric my so-called young ears have heard over the years from non-union workers.
-Rocky
Don't you worry because you will probably get your wish.... If McCain, wins GM, cars will be built in China, and imported to the U.S. just like every other thing else. I guess you could say buy a Honda or Kia right ??? Well their won't be any jobs outside of McJobs or Walley World types for us regular slobs, to afford such a luxury. Need a Engineer, call up India !!! Need a Car, call up Brickland, Geely, Chery, or the Big China 3 as all HQ will move from Detroit to Beijing !!!! :sick: Ohhhhh I forgot Need a Job, right ??? Well if this continues you won't have to worry because the only cars ya'll will be driving is your
Masters CHIN-E Class chauffering him around on U.S. interstates the Chinese, purchased under the Bush, administration !!!! :surprise:
-Rocky
UAW President Ron Gettelfinger says McCain "is content to rely on the failed policies of President Bush," which Gettelfinger says cost millions of U.S. manufacturing jobs.
Michigan Democrats picked Gettelfinger in June as an Obama delegate to the party's national convention, which begins next Monday in Denver.
Gettelfinger issued a statement Monday saying Obama "is taking action to support American workers and American companies."
Gettelfinger cites Obama's promise of $4 billion in low-cost financing for automakers to retool to make more fuel-efficient vehicles.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080819/ap_on_el_pr/uaw_obama_2;_ylt=AqydnGdaH8SGJhs- sLViNKe8XIr0F
-Rocky
I would have to agree with this statement. There are FAR too many people in this country who are afraid to stand up for themselves in the workplace, and end up bitter about their position, and resentful of others who do stand up for themselves (unions and individuals alike).
For the sake of argument let's say your law office said they were closing shop ( I do assume you have your own practice and not work for somebody, but for sake of argument) in Atlanta and moving to Savannah, to be closer to a big client. You could take this lying down and move, but how would you feel? Or, you could stand up to your boss and ask how this makes sense, offer up an alternative, just ask questions. This way, whether you quit and look for work in Atlanta, or move with them across state, at least you feel as though you made an informed decision, and do so knowing that you at least made your best pitch for how you feel.
No offense, but the exterior styling is quite bland for me but the value is tempting.
Let's see, Camry $25K, '06 DTS $26K....hmmm...
Regards,
OW
>Nowhere do they advertise any discounts,
Honda is the magic act of seldom showing discounts. They give the discounts to the dealer (dealer incentives), who can then decide if and how much they pass on to the consumer. That's unlike the past typical practice of announcing the discount amounts by many brands to encourage buying.
I recall in 2003 and around then when the Honda and Toyota folks on Edmunds would bristle at the idea that they had to give rebates because their cars were so in demand that they didn't need rebates. It wasn't long after that the rebates started appearing!!!
But the Honda folks tended to have "dealer incentives" so that the unknowing consumer could be plucked for the cash when the dealer didn't actually discount whatever the incentive amount to them was along with, in this area, horrific addons and packs to pluck the consumer feathers further.
The use of "hidden incentives" furthered the consumer illusion that they never were discounted. It's a parallel to the hidden repairs done in the 80s and 90s so that consumers didn't know there were actually, gasp, flaws that got repaired on the foreign car just like on American branded cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What!!!! You were on the internet in the 80's. Hmm, you must have been hanging out with your buddy Al Gore for that to be possible as I remember being in a college computer lab in '91 using Mosaic and their were about 100 internet sites to visit.
All of this enlightenment at an early age, and no one saw the writing on the wall!!!! It has been obvious for 30 years that the domestic auto industry has been in trouble. I grew up near the steel mills in NW Indiana. My grandpa worked as a union steel worker for 43 years, my FIL worked as an iron worker for 33 years until LTV went belly up and he elected to retire. My grandpa and parents as did my wife's parents always talked to us about getting an education and getting the hell out of town for a better life. They sacrificed to provide us and our siblings an opportunity for higher education for the possibility for a better life. They didn't fill my head with the BS that "the mill and union is good enough for me, it will be good enough for you".
Sounds like your's wanted you to stick around and feel the pain.
Glad to hear you like it. Not my kind of car, but they do have a presence on the road. I enjoy my UAW made Expedition. Far better fit and finish than the Mexican made Suburban's I looked at. Although it's not perfect and has developed an annoying habit of not downshifting to 1st gear until it is completely stopped for like 15 seconds. So it is at the Ford dealer getting looked at.
Regards,
OW
It is quite obvious you got a VERY lopsided picture of life in America.
My point is the industrial midwest "rust belt" as many call us has always been more advanced than the south. They farmed in the south and built stuff in the north. That was the way it was.....I'm not saying farmers in the south are dumb people and are important to our society but in many cases they live and still live a sheltered life as I can speak first hand as one who lived and traveled in the south.
This statement shows quite clearly your lack of education regarding the history of the United States. Thomas Jefferson our second President warned US not to get involved in just the kind of industry that dominates the Midwest and especially Michigan. His ideal agrarian society was meant to avoid the very problems we are seeing today in places like Michigan. Jefferson felt that big cities and industry that you seem so enamored with would lead to a welfare state with many people out of work crippled and a drudge on society as a whole. We should have listened to Jefferson. Kind of late now as we are stuck with a lot of worn out old auto workers and very few people to support them. It will require more and more taxation of the middle class to keep the baby boomers fed and sheltered. The Rich are going to remain rich. The very industries you feel are so advanced bred the very rich you abhor.
explain why tens of millions of americans have lost their jobs with unfree trade and the Bush, economic doctrine ???
Again it is sad that you have such a narrow view of America and what has been lost. In the 1960s we built all the TVs in the USA. By the late 1970s they were all coming from Japan. Where was your UAW support then? Did they refuse to buy a TV or stereo that was not UNION MADE IN THE USA? Next we lost small appliances, large appliances, lumber & plywood. Long before NAFTA we allowed lumber imports from Canada that were subsidized by the Canadian government. Did the UAW refuse to own a home built with Canadian lumber and Japanese plywood? You should really read more about the past and less about what you hear from such a narrow UAW perspective. This country has slowly given up on industry over the last 50 years. It just took longer to reach your family. Now it is their turn to lose and become wards of the state. Just as Jefferson warned US of 200 years ago.
Sounds like your's wanted you to stick around and feel the pain.
From where I am sitting your family could see where the country was going and did not stick their heads in the sand and wait for the messiah to save them. It was not rocket science to see where heavy industry was headed 30 years ago. To hang on with the hopes of a new industrial age was just foolish. Sadly we have politicians that still promise what will NEVER happen. No automaker in their right mind will build where there is such a repressive labor market.
UAW parents should have insisted on their children getting a college education when the big bucks were flowing. That is a much better legacy than lamenting how it used to be.
So it will knock your fillings out every time you hit a bump in the road? :P
My dad's UAW-built '98 S-10 seems to be holding up just fine after a decade, although he only drives it maybe 100 miles a month. The lack of consistency is what did more damage to the domestics' (and the UAW's) reputation than anything else IMO. The average buyer has no way of knowing if her car was assembled by the good UAW workers who still care, or the featherbedding layabouts with a few too many Stroh's in their belly. :sick: