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Comments
Just for grins, you might try cross-fitting them. The reason I say so is many manufacturers make two different sized filters for the same engine, depending on suspsnion and exhaust clearances. If they do cross fit, use the largest one that works for both vehicles and you can by a case of them!
Being hydrolocked usually results from actual submersion - nobody wants to admit they took they 4X4 into a 3 foot ditch, so they blame something else.
Was always skeptical about the dirt passing through and the possibility of oil getting on the MAF sensor.
As the lubrication engineer stated on one post, he can always tell, when doing oil analysis, if a K&N filter is on the vehicle. But he did say that the K&N would stop bricks and birds.
Oh well! it was a $100.00 learning experience. And I have always been one to purchase stake oil.
But, some aircraft reciprocating engines use a similar filter. My 108 HP Lycoming filter looked just like a K&N. However there is not that much dust and dirt at 8500' agl, except when Mt. St Helens erupted. There was a NOTAM issued about the ash and checking the air filter at that time, even in central US.
I admit three things. (1) I'd disown a kid of mine who would do such a foolish thing, (2) the car sounded faster, and (3)the benefits were mighty small.
Odie
I actually had my dad convinced it gave better performance and economy (on our family car, a '78 Fairmont with a 140 hp 302 V-8). I threw out some line of junk I learned in physics class....
I am very concerned with taking good care of my car's engine. Thanks.
K&N filters won't do a bit of good, in fact they may be harmful, if you don't read the directions and maintain the filter.
I've had K&Ns in every vehicle I've owned since 1984. Never a problem.
I have noticed a Si reading that is a little high in the oil. Some have said that it could be dirt (sand is Si). I will check it again in a later analysis. What evidence do you have zues that it is filtering better? The wire screen sure doesn't appear as if it would filter better than paper. The pressure drop across it is lower as I have read also. That is a good indication that it is not filtering as much.
His tests showed 3-5% filtration improvement, measured through an a/c filtration system. The flow (for power and economy) was consistently 10-15% above paper filters. While those numbers aren't staggering, the idea of never buying another $10-20 air filter element is very attractive and has kept me a K&N guy for a long time.
I do like the way the K&N let's the car breath. Would perhaps more frequent oil changes be in order, or perhaps a Mobil 1 oil filter as opposed to going back to a paper filter?
I will say that many knowledgeable car people use K&Ns, just go to Stangnet. But like all this stuff, oil types, filters, synthetic vs. dino, there are many opinions.
I told my friend to get one and he took it to his mechanic to put it on and his mechanic told him he was making a big mistake. But some of the smartest car people I know have told me to use the K&N air filter. And for a while it was offered stock on the Ford Mustang Cobra, the greatest car ever made (see, more opinions!).
50K is not cool - that's the standard to maintain the warranty (1,000,000 miles). Everyone who I've talked to with K&N and who uses K&N products recommends cleaning and re-oiling at least every other oil change - I do it every 3-4K - every oil change.
The machanic may have a valid point, or is listening to the rumors circulating around Jiffy Lube. If you soak the filter by using too much oil, the extra oil gets sucked into the MAF sensor and can cause problems.
I don't happen to agree with Karl myself, but he's a motorhead and I'm not :-). K&N advertises "as much as" x% increased hp and acceleration and have in the past touted x% increased mpg for their replacement air filter. That covers a lot of ground, including zero gain (don't see that mpg claim off-hand on their website tonight).
I can get a nice clean paper filter for my van every 15,000 miles for $7 and avoid getting a carcinogenic substance on my hands or into the waste stream.
From what I've read, K&N type filters typically allow a bit more air in but at the expense of dirt. If anything happens under warranty, it's your loss, Magnuson-Moss notwithstanding. Some people (one guy?) have reported on the net that the (excess?) oil from the K&N filter destroyed his MAF sensor.
So my personal opinion is that these types of filters give you more air for very little hp gains at the expense of the longevity of your engine. There's always the "if they're so good, why aren't they OEM" argument too (maybe they are - vettes perhaps?).
Even though I'm frugal I think I'm still ahead dollar-wise at 77,777 miles by using paper replacements.
Remember also that I change my dead dino every 7,500 miles whether it needs it or not and my in-cabin air filter is a cut up furnace filter from Home Depot :-). And while it's torquey, it's still a minivan that I'm driving. Need I say it? YMMV!
Steve, Host
http://www.knfilters.com/wraps.htm
They also say that it "straightens and smooths" the air flow stream thereby "increasing engine performance". If this actually happens, they are talking about changing it from a turbulent flow stream to a laminar one. This would actually reduce the mixing that happens with the fuel. Turbulence always helps mixing.
I am a little wary of the claims that are made and now I am concerned about the MAF filter. Can someone explain to me what the MAF filter is? I am going back to paper on the next oil change and do a oil analysis to compare the Si content.
I've seen them damaged when guys put a quart and a half of filter oil on their K&N.
There's no model for the screen, that I know of, that will fit a K&N for your car.
I'll buy the idea that the addition of oil to the filter will offer some additional protection.
I have one on my car and I like the way the car breathes with the filter and I like the increased throttle response.
I think the filter is well made and air filters are the company's speciality. I'd guess after all these years they would know what they are doing. If there was a problem with the filtration, I think the car enthusiasts who use K&N would have caught on by now and stopped using their product. Or K&N would have modifed or improved their product.
I also find the the fact that Ford Motorsports and Chysler/Mopar sell
K&N air filters as a compelling argument for the company. I believe I read somewhere that Ford even dyes their K&N's Ford blue instead of the regular red.
K&N is very clear that using their filter will not void the warranty. I choose to believe them. (Now if you are a dumbo and put enough oil on the filter to turn it into minature oil well, and then that oil leaks onto the throttle body, then that is not the manufacturers fault, so I can see them not covering that.)
Perhaps the oil tech said he can always tell a K&N when he does an oil analysis, but there are so many opinions on these type of things! I know some mechanics love K&N filters and others hate them. I would have to see proof of a K&N signature being present in the oil analysis to convince me of this. If you know a link I would love to see it.
It also seems your driving conditions would be a factor. If you travel back roads in the country, or do some off roading, or live in a dust bowl like western Oklahoma, then air filtration becomes more of a problem. I don't have that situation.
Finally, what this controvery has done is made me rethink the oil change interval thing and oil filters. I got on Stangnet, and most the guys there are using Mobil 1 synthetic and changing it every 3,000 miles. It may be overkill, but I think it is insurance. And also, I will probably go to the Mobil 1 filter, which I believe will filter finer particles out. So this is my plan to deal with the K&N filter queston rather than getting rid of the K&N.
Finally, K&N says on their website that there are all kinds of claims out there about superior air filtration by different companies. The key is "claims". K&N has a good name, a lot of supporters, an interesting product and I'll give 'em a chance.
I may get an oil analysis down the road just to confirm the K&N is working and, well, just for fun!
I'd apologize for the bandwidth hit, but I know you guys don't care!
Sorry for the lack of analytical data, but I've always PREFERRED THE COMMON SENSE APPROACH !!
Here is a little hard data from K&N's website, it seems to say K&N filters as good at filtration than the OEM paper filters if I am reading it correctly:
Dust capacity:305 grams
K&N cumulative efficiency: 99.05%
K&N initial pass: 97.11%
OEM cumulative efficiency: 99.29%
OEM paper initial pass: 96.47%
Both K&N and the paper filters stop 99% of particles on a SAE initial dust test. The OEM standard is 96%. The test uses particles as low as the 0 - 5 micron range and goes up to 20 microns. (Note form a novice: that sounds pretty small to me!)
Now I am NOT an engineer and I DON'T know exactly how to INTERPET these figures. But they seem pretty close to me. If there is a cause for concern on the K&N I have not found it yet IMHO.
99% works for me and has for nearly 20 years.
It is too easy for some slick lawyer to get a company off in a lawsuit or have it get thrown out. There are so many ways to word advertisements so as not to get into trouble. Test procedures can be set up to get the results you want. Statistics can be manipulated to say whatever you are trying to prove.
I'd never insist that you keep something or try something on my word alone, but you could at least be respectful of the real world research I've already done in 18 vehicles and actual lab testing.
I'm not advertising for K&N, but so many times here on Edmunds, and most recently quite often with you, bigorange, I get a slam through your "I don't believe you, you must be full of poop" attitude. Gets more than a little old.
How about if I tell you that you should go invest $36K into XYZ stock, would you do it?
You know I'm messing with you, right?
Let's put it this way, you have spent close to a $1000 on filters if you have bought them for 18 cars. Even for just a $1000 (though its much more if you factor in potential damage from all those 18 cars), let's say that I suggest you put $1000 into XYZ Internet startup company (or Enron 2000). I say that I know its a good company because the owner is a friend of mine and he knows the business. Are you going to do it? Thousands of Enron employees believed what the CEO and chairman of the board were telling them enough to put their whole retirement savings in company stock.
Don't expect me to put money into ANYTHING because of any experience you have had. Also, if you would buy something just because of what the company says it will do, I have a mansion that I will sell you for a $1 million. It's address is 1200 Swamp Road, Everglades FL. Just send me a check and its yours. You don't have to go look it, its a great place with a great view (he says with a grin).
Many opinions on the internet have contributed to me buying my first K&N but I have seen no benefit from it so far except for not having to buy another filter. No power increase or mpg at all. If the oil analysis doesn't show that it has extra dirt when using this filter, I MAY buy another just because of not having to replace it.
Most are between $20-40, and there were several I was able to use in more than one vehicle (trading for a like vehicle, swap in the paper filter).
I was estimating an average price of $50 for the filters anyway to come up with $900 total.
But if I had a buddy who was an investment broker and I knew him and knew he was successful, I'd listen to him.
Also, if I had a buddy who had been racing cars in 4 different formats since he was 15 years old (that's 24 years now) and had experience with just about every aftermarket manufacturer at the SEMA show (as a regional manager, very maker out there courted us so we'd know more about their products, so we'd sell their products).
That same guy has been in the car business for 10 years, just earned a masters in engineering 9automotive design and function).
I'd give his advice a little more weight than the guy down at Autozone or Pep Boys, that's for sure.
http://www.amsoil.com/products/bf.html
http://www.amsoil.com/products/ts.html
Course one must take the results with a grain of salt due to the fact that the best performance is realized by their product.
obyone has a good post. Amsoil says that their foam filter beats K&N. You better switch to it for your next 20 cars.
I can't see it as throwing money down a rat hole, by any means, even if there is no performance gain.
My paper element filters cost between $10 and $14, depending on where I would get them. The K&N for my car was only $24.
Now, I have a cold air induction system that came with a cheap paper filter (conical). Interestingly, it was the same element as one I had from another car and the K&N I had mounted right up!
Amsoil - I don't doubt Amsoil produces good products, but until some of my racer friends (and other engineers) prove that Amsoil is better than K&N, I won't switch.
I will say the reason I like the K&N is because with my car there is a noticable difference in how it breathes and sounds. But if you are not seeing a difference there, then it seems like an OEM paper filter may be just as good for your application. But then we don't get to hear about the oil analysis! So stay with the K&N, at least till you get that done. When do you think you will have it completed?
http://www.seansa4page.com/resource/air filter.html
On Bob the Oil Guy's site, they make the point that proper studies on engine oil and especially oil filters will probably never be done because of costs and the difficultly of doing them right. I think for this reason there will always be controversy. But K&N has been around a long time and has a lot of supporters. Now the 5W-20 Motor Water is another issue. I can find no good to that stuff except fuel economy...