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You are correct in that the individual systems ratings do not compute with the don't buy this car rating. I wrote to them about this, but they never responded. This is unfortunate because nowhere does it indicate how they arrived at their overall decisions.
So says an apparent fair and balanced review by Popular Mechanics.
The Bottom Line
But that’s the rub with the Genesis. The Genesis is a good car that gets nearly to “luxury” levels. But it’s lacking the fit, finish and quality control one expects from the leaders in the segment. Considering we’re even comparing this Hyundai with the leaders like BMW and Lexus, that says a lot. We suspect Hyundai will reach those same levels in due time.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4265762.html
Don't shoot the messenger. Maybe they're right, or maybe they're wrong.
Oddly enough, the Genesis may boost Azera sales, if they price are aggressive with the Azera in an increasingly cost-competitive field.
If you look at the cars they recommend, they only have to have average reliability (whatever that is). Some pretty weak models IMO are "recommended."
Unless you drive backwards.
Oddly enough, the Genesis is priced agreessive, by industry standards. I think it would boost the brand and the rest of the line. Still, only time will tell.
I strongly disagree. I've owned 2 Audi A6s that I bought new, a 2000 2.8 quattro and a 2003 4.2 V8. Both were among the best-built cars I've ever owned. Quality-wise, I'd put them up against anything on the road.
Mercedes has suffered some issues with its electrical and electronic systems, lately, however. And personally, BMW and Mercedes are really commanding an unjust premium, IMO, but in part it's because of the weak USD and strong euro.
The biggest test for Hyundai will be long term reliability/durability.
Given Hyundai's pretty poor resale value, if you're not a badge snob conscious person, and if the Genesis maintains its structural integrity and has decent mechanical reliability, a two or three year old Genesis may be just the bargain a lot of people will be wanting.
The Azeras lose about 50% of their value in 24 months, so if the Genesis follows suit, that would be a decent deal.
Note that luxury sedans as a whole depreciate pretty quickly. So those looking for a bargain should buy one used no matter what the brand.
According to postings here and elsewhere, many people are beginning to see problems with the Azera. Still a good car in many respects, but not without problems that a qualtiy car should not have. And Hyundai and the dealers both sell the Azera as a "luxury" car.
Carolinabob, I think the long term durability test will be key for Hyundai. There is no question they've come far. But I do think Korean vehicles tend to have an incomplete 'feeling' about them. It's hard to perfectly describe. It's almost the opposite of German cars. Whereas German cars are over-engineered, and even particular attention is paid to the pieces and bits you can't see and don't notice, Korean manufacturers such as Hyundai present a pretty package, but lurking underneath, hidden from plain view, are unrefined and poorly executed bits and pieces, which is necessary to keep costs down, but which evidence themselves in the way of steering feel, suspension noise, etc.
The Genesis isn't in the TCO calculator yet though.
Find me a 12-14K 2006 Hyundai Azera then...
Stop smoking that pipe; you are way off there.
Perception is a helluva drug. Believe it or not, Azera and Avalon, for example - depreciation rate is about the same.
Hyundai no longer has poor resale value, this is the 21st century - wake up
Including brands like BMW, Merc - cars like 7 Series and S Class are notoriously known for huge depreication hit. First owners don't give a damn anyway, but still good news for second owners.
Really? Never seen those popped up here. Certainly I know Hyundai has never called/touted the Elantra as a "luxury" auto in the US, unless someone is having a little too much fun
Find me a 12-14K 2006 Hyundai Azera then...
Stop smoking that pipe; you are way off there.
Perception is a helluva drug. Believe it or not, Azera and Avalon, for example - depreciation rate is about the same.
Hyundai no longer has poor resale value, this is the 21st century - wake up
You are in denial. Less than 14k with 13k miles on some of them; even some Limiteds.
You can get a 2007 for just a bit more than 14k. That's some serious depreciation.
Say when. Denying reality is a hell of a drug, no?:
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=22&pageNum- - - ber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfie- - - ld=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-|E-ALL|M-_19_|B-14000|H-|D-_7- - - 871_|N-N|R-10000|I-1|P-PRICE+descending|Q-descending|Y-_2006_|X-popular|Z-48009&- - - aff=detnews&paId=272052112&recnum=2&leadExists=true
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=22&pageNum- - - ber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfie- - - ld=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-|E-ALL|M-_19_|B-14000|H-|D-_7- - - 871_|N-N|R-10000|I-1|P-PRICE+descending|Q-descending|Y-_2006_|X-popular|Z-48009&- - - aff=detnews&paId=135917423&recnum=1&leadExists=true
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=22&pageNum- - - ber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfie- - - ld=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-|E-ALL|M-_19_|B-14000|H-|D-_7- - - 871_|N-N|R-10000|I-1|P-PRICE+descending|Q-descending|Y-_2006_|X-popular|Z-48009&- - - aff=detnews&paId=269086370&recnum=3&leadExists=true
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=22&pageNum- - - ber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfie- - - ld=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-|E-ALL|M-_19_|B-14000|H-|D-_7- - - 871_|N-N|R-10000|I-1|P-PRICE+descending|Q-descending|Y-_2006_|X-popular|Z-48009&- - - aff=detnews&paId=273212782&recnum=4&leadExists=true
According to postings here and elsewhere, many people are beginning to see problems with the Azera. Still a good car in many respects, but not without problems that a qualtiy car should not have. And Hyundai and the dealers both sell the Azera as a "luxury" car.
The Genesis, including the RWD BH platform took Hyundai some five years to develop so I have full confidence all of the bugs have been worked during various stages. The Lambda V6 (also in the Azera) is proven, same as ZF and Asin trannies, etc etc. Given Hyundai's fast improvements in quality and reliability, I am confident the Genesis will follow suit in the excellent vehicles we've been introduced to from Hyundai the past few years (pretty much whole line).
As for the Azera issues, I take it you haven't browse the other forums. Understand the Azera isn't the only car having issues - every car is. As long as human interactions are factored in the building process, you car isn't going to be 100% perfect.
There are reasons why the Azera has scored at the top of the list since introduction in customer satisfactions. If this was just an one time thing, sure, maybe it was a fluke, but obviously that's not the case.
As for the classification of the Azera, it's more of a marketing tag than anything. There is nothing wrong with it. FWIW, the Azera isn't that far from a true luxury car, it's an excellent premium vehicle based on my observations. On that point, some of the entry level products from the luxury marques - are they true luxury vehicles? I don't know about you but not by my opinion
IIRC, Edmunds did a test and their calculation the Azera has a listed depreciation rate of around 27% after 18 months - don't recall the year, trim, options of the car.
I don't have the numbers in front of me but I believe a current-year Azera Limited (no add'l options) run somewhere in the mid 30% in depreciation after two years, in-line with most other large sedans - of course, this is based on MSRP.
You can't just use the prices you found on the used car lot and assign their depreciation rates.
I am not 'out to get Hyundai.' I don't dislike Hyundai. In fact, I am cheering for Hyundai, or any other company, that comes out with credible alternatives to more costly cars, as it produces a net gain for all consumers, everywhere, and provides the incentive for car companies to not just improve their products, but to lower the cost of the finished product, as well.
In fact, to be perfectly honest, I think Hyundai has already begun to pressure the new car prices of some of the competition. The Sonata has pressured Toyota and Nissan, IMO, for example.
I am replying to you because you said the depreciation rate wasn't as great as I originally stated, and in fact, it is.
Why it this the case? I do not know. I just know that it is.
I do no think it helps that Hyundai is makes people jump through technical hoops to keep their factory warranty from being voided. I don't think it helps that Hyundai cuts the powertrain warranty down to almost 1/2 for secondary owners (that isn't good for resale value). And I don't think Hyundai's handling of the suspension issues plaguing many Sonatas, and apparently, now Azeras, helps either. Especially when they resort to excuses such as 'it's inherent in the design of the suspension.'
Again, far from hating Hyundai, I like Hyundai. I'd just like to see them treat their customer base better, be more flexible on warranty issues, and admit when a problem shouldn't be dismissed as normal.
There is NOTHING I'd like to see more than Hyundai push the envelope by matching or exceeding Lexus, Infiniti and Acura quality levels, and BMW performance levels, while offering such vehicles for 20%, 30% or even 40% less than the competition.
They really do need to work on their customer relations as part of that equation, IMO, though.
Finally, I have lowered expectations of the Genesis based on some things I've read recently. I will keep an open mind and wait for it to reach dealer lots and hear feedback from owners before assuming some of these negative comments (there are many positive comments, too) are true.
On this Azera issue, understand just because a used car is selling in your area for 50% of its original MSRP doesn't not always indicate the car has lost 50% of its value. In my area it's selling for about 40% of its original MSRP, can I say the car has lost 40% of its value, based on MSRP?
That said, the depreciation for Hyundai could be better, and it's getting better, slowly. Cars like the Genesis sedan and coupe certainly will help, perceptions will help, etc. Hyundai is trailing Toyota/Honda, for example, by a considerable amount in terms of resale value, but the gap is closing. Hyundai is re-writing the playbooks of its Asian counterparts
I agree with you, and FWIW, second owners are certainly getting a serious bargain on a fantastic product.
considering that the 2009s are out, the 2006s are closer to 36 months than 24 months old. out of the 1094 Azeras, about 233 were 2006s. around 18 were not priced. of the remaining 215, over 160 were just under 17k or more. again, only 5 (all 2006s) were under 14k. by under, i mean 13,700 to 13,998. as i stated before, everything else was mid 15k or more, and even then only about 30 cars were more than 100 bucks under 17k. over half (of the 215 06 models) were just under 18k or more.
the reason i was so dubious of the low prices, was because i had checked the carmax site just a few days ago for a cheap Azera. on that site, there are only about 40 Azeras, mostly 07s, and all were just under 18k or more, except one 06 se, and an 07 gls. the only gls they're selling. i might add that the GLS makes no sense at all, but i am digressing. everything else were limiteds. they topped off at just under 20k, and all were between 1k and 5k under kelley blue book pricing, which really means nothing, except for insurance purposes.
so if sub 14k Azeras are "all over", then probably that means that there are probably about 30 or 40 Azeras scattered "all over" the entire country, out of some thousands of used Azeras currently on the market. hardly reflective of what a typical Azera is going for. to be fair, most of these cars are dealer cars. maybe the private market will have more of these sub 14k Azeras.
If a 2008 Azera Limited lists for $30000 for example and Hyundai brings a $2500 rebate to the table, you are down to $27500. Most dealers will happily sell you a new Azera with an additional $2500 discount (some will give more, some will give less, work with me here), that would bring us to $25000 total.
Now if you are talking about $17k-$18k for this car after one year, then you are really saying there is $7k-$8k depreciation. That is 28%-32%. The real kicker though is that if you look at a car that has a 20% rate of depreciation but is $40k, you have lost the same amount of money. Why would you say that one car depreciates worse than another? If a M-B SL55 at $100k dropped only 10%, then you would lose $10k. That seems like a lot worse depreciation than the $7k-$8k on an Azera.
Dollar amounts are really all that matter, not percentages.
The point is that you cannot spend a percentage. Thus the amount of dollars you lose in depreciation is really what is important. Percentages are misleading when two cars sell new for different prices; percentages favor the more expensive car. Great, its depreciation rate is not as big as that of the lower-priced car. But you might actually lose more in depreciation, in dollars, on the more expensive car.
Most dealers have to consider the ability to obtain financing on a car when assigning a value to it.
A car depreciating faster does not necessarily make it bad.
I don't see any value, or fairness, in comparing depreciation on two vehicles unless the vehicles are comparable.
Page 85. Used Cars to Avoid. Hyundai, Azera '07.
These reports are based on surveys completed by Consumer Reports subscribers.
I have browsed other sites and do not see near the problems that I see listed for the Azera.
Bottom line, I was looking forward to moving up to a Genesis; now it is very doubtful. I don't need another car that develops problems after 5,000 miles or even 50,000 miles. Even when covered by warranties, which is doubtful, it is still a pain in the rear to get them taken care of.
So if these two models are ranked very highly does that make the Genesis more compelling?
Any car of any type can develop problems. This is not a sure sign that any other car of that type will be bad. It also does not mean that one good one gets you great service in the future. My Lincoln LS V8 that was a great car sure didn't make my wife's Aviator any less of a piece of junk.
Or as my financial guy would say, "past performance does not guarantee future results"
:confuse:
P.S. Sonata is another Hyundai that CR has praised for its reliability--one of the most reliable cars in its class per their latest survey. But.. can the Genesis' reliability be predicted from that?
Hopefully the same will not happen with the Sonata, Elantra and others. However, the April 2008 issue of CR also stated that while Hyundai's newest vehicles have better reliability, it falls off dramatically at five years and older.
All I'm saying is that my experience with the Azera causes me to postpone consideration of a Genesis until it has been on the road at least three full years and all the reports are in. They can test it all they want in Korea and California, but thousands of models over three years will be the real proof.
I hope it is a great car and in 2011/12 I can seriously consider one. My original plan to get a higher level car in 2010.
That is not quite what CR said. What they said is this (emphasis added by me):
Younger Hyundais are fairly reliable, but the average Hyundai of five years and older is among the least reliable. That doesn't mean that newer vehicles will suffer the same fate down the road. In the past few years, the Korean manufacturer has greatly improved the quality of its cars.
-- Consumer Reports, April 2008, p. 21
Also, the article notes that their reliability numbers for the article incorporate Kia vehicles. It is well known that Kia lags Hyundai in reliability. It would be interesting to see what the results would have been with just Hyundai vehicles.
Based on your take on Hyundai's reliability, it seems you should wait at least 6-7 years to buy an Genesis, right? That is when you expect the reliability falloff to occur.
I glanced over the April issue you have mentioned (many times may I add), the only issue from the subscribers seem to be electrical for the 06 model year; for 07, climate system and power equipment. By the way, all of those issues are middle of the road (right in the middle between better and worse).
So this is why we'd need to avoid the Azera? Speak for yourself then, because I flipped a few pages and saw the Camry V6 - far more issues: tranny (major and minor), body integrity, brakes, etc..
Those seem like far more serious issue than raised on the Azera; yet you made it sound worse than they actually are, posts after posts.
I am out of this one.
I'm just wondering how many of those complaints are yours!
problems and after 22K miles I'm averaging 27.6 mpg
OK, this really is my last posting on this topic, maybe even on Car Space altogether.
Has anyone heard anything about this?
And the Article Comments - 2009 Hyundai Genesis Full Test discussion may be of interest.
Thanks!!
Got my August C/D today with the review and pics of the Genesis sedan. For some reason it looks better on the printed page than on pics on the PC. Maybe I need a new monitor? Oh, I have one. Never mind.
My point is, Hyundai cars are finishing well in all the reviews and comparos, and showing excellent reliability. That more than likely helps make buyers more comfortable when they're about to plunk down 35K for a Genesis.